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Ask HN: Where do seasoned devs look for short-term work?

224 points by shinypenguin 2y ago

Hello HN In a short form question: If you do, where do you look for a short time projects? I'd like to put my skill set to use and work on a project, I'm available for 6-9 months. The problem seems to be for me, that I cannot find any way of finding such project. I'm quite skilled, I have 15 years of experience, first 3 as a system administrator, then I went full on developer - have been full stack for 2 of those years, then switched my focus fully on the backend - and ended up as platform data engineer - optimizing the heck out of systems to be able to process data fast and reliably at larger scale. I already went through UpWork, Toptal and such and to my disappointment, there was no success to be found. Do you know of any project boards, or feature bounty platforms, that I could use to find a short time project? Thank you for your wisdom :)

dpz 2y ago
Most ad-hoc work I've picked up has been people I've previously worked with/for. Maybe worth reaching out to people you have a prestablished relationship with
nathias 2y ago
what's this network people keep bringing up?
- zb3 2y ago
  It's the thing OP and I don't have, otherwise we'd not be asking these questions. HN being helpful as always..
  - taormina 2y ago
    I mean, don’t undervalue your own network without trying. Maybe you haven’t worked with anyone famous, most of us haven’t! But someone you know might be in the right place at the right time and mention you to the right person. Of course it’s imperfect but you have interacted with a lot more people in the past than you are giving yourself credit for. It’s about putting yourself out there and allowing that to happen. No one said to just pray to the network and quit looking though. But people who already know you are a good apple from past experience are the best.
- Zigurd 2y ago
  It's based on the template for most question forum responses that aren't actually responsive to the question. If I could figure out how to fix that, I'd be pitching a Quora-like start up that actually works.
GiorgioG 2y ago
Now is not a great time to be looking for this kind of work unfortunately.
- sbrother 2y ago
  That's not true in the AI/ML space. But for everything else I would agree.
sukiorigami 2y ago
I think your network is the best place to look for this sort of work. Sometimes people will reach out to me with short term projects which is the best way to get gigs like this. Maybe start looking at your colleagues on linkedin, see what they are up to, and think of ways to contribute to what they are working on. The best people to contact in this scenario are leadership and decision makers. A SWE II isn't gonna help you much but a CTO at an early stage startup might be a good person to send a DM if they are friends with you (or even if they aren't!) :)
- thekevan 2y ago
  I've found when people ask this question, it's usually because they don't have a network to ask. Or, right or wrong, they just don't like the social aspect of going to their friends for work.
  - Nextgrid 2y ago
    To be fair, there's a good argument for never mixing friends and business. You wouldn't want a project that goes wrong (which is a risk of doing business and somewhat expected and budgeted for on both sides) to jeopardize an friendship, and similarly you wouldn't want someone exploiting your friendship to get an unfair advantage in business (that they will often not reciprocate if the situation was reversed).
    - ghaff 2y ago
      Well there are friends and friends and yes the categories merge. But since grad school interviews every job I've gotten has been through people I was friendly with professionally.
    - em-bee 2y ago
      from one tech friend i learned this, after a failed project of his that cost him a friendship: make friends through business, but don't do business with friends.
deadbabe 2y ago
Short term work is more plentiful when money is easy and there’s a lot of entrepreneurial activity going on due to some recent catalyst such as mobile app platforms or the dotcom boom etc. Right now we’re in the AI boom and some people may be making money peddling agentic solutions but money is tight and businesses are hurting. It’s also hard to trust a short term dev who doesn’t really need the money. You have no leverage over them. They sort of just do as they please.
- throwanem 2y ago
  Hard to trust someone who takes that perspective on the relationship, too. I'll work for a control freak if I need the money bad enough, but you're not going to get the best I can offer if you don't have the sense to keep a loose rein.
- maerF0x0 2y ago
  > It’s also hard to trust a short term dev You said the unpopular but honest thing.
  - magicstefanos 2y ago
    > who doesn’t really need the money Finally someone says it
- praptak 2y ago
  > It’s also hard to trust a short term dev who doesn’t really need the money. You have no leverage over them. They sort of just do as they please. On one hand I agree. On the other hand I cannot help but contrast this with how free market capitalism is advertised: free agents entering free mutually beneficial contracts at their own free will, everyone benefits. Then suddenly when the worker is actually free to leave then it becomes a problem.
  - deadbabe 2y ago
    It’s not a problem if the worker is offering a commoditized service. Problem is a dev isn’t really a commodity. Their value increases the more they work on your application and build familiarity, which isn’t easily replaced. Sometimes a short term dev can construct a system only they truly understand and then you’re entirely at their mercy. Now you’d have to keep an ongoing arrangement with them for future support. It’s a similar issue with long term devs too. Employers hoping to squeeze their devs for 40 hours a week consistently are going to be very disappointed if they found out how much their devs actually work. What you’re really paying them for is to stick around so when shit hits the fan or you need new features fast you already have the best people for the job ready to go, no need to hire some contractor and go through an onboarding.
limbero 2y ago
I did this a few years ago and the winning recipe was a shameless (i.e. deeply shameful) linkedin post where I pretty much just summarized my skillset and explained that I was looking for a senior engineer equivalent of a summer internship, with no chance of extension. Got me 3-4 offers. None of the offering companies had ads out for roles like this, so this was pretty much the only way.
- cushychicken 2y ago
  Why’s this shameful, exactly? There’s no shame in saying you’re available to work.
  - ForHackernews 2y ago
    IMHO selling yourself (selling anything, really) is a bit demeaning. But this is probably a class affectation on my part, not real moral intuition.
    - cortesoft 2y ago
      Selling ANYTHING is demeaning? So you believe the only non-demeaning way to live would be to live entirely self-sufficiently, making and growing everything yourself?
      - margalabargala 2y ago
        There are multiple definitions of the word "selling". The poster is referring to what salespeople do, not what a grocery store does.
        sgc 2y ago
        Grocery stores are experts at sales tactics throughout the store. All that fruit does not look so beautiful in the field, and virtually every store is trying to develop their 'ethos' to capture the customers with enough money to be able to care about that. There is no way to avoid selling in life. Otherwise, at the least, you will be constantly overlooked. There should be no shame in it. The shame is only when sales replaces instead of presents the value proposition you are offering.
ivanmontillam 2y ago
I'd believe you're better off working on yourself. Maybe do toy projects for your potential portfolio, learn an additional skill (AI?), and build many weekend projects until something sticks.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
james_marks 2y ago
Publishing articles, etc to demo your skill helps you stay top of mind. Even if only the 5 people in your network see it, they are the 5 people that need that steady reminder of your skills and availability. I’ve also hired people outside my network this way, when I happened to stumble on someone with a great article in the exact thing I’m working on.
- bob1029 2y ago
  I've started thinking about this. Articles/blogs/repos to generate interesting opportunities. It's one thing to network and talk about your skills. It's a different thing to demonstrate them.
  - brudgers 2y ago
    Yes they are different. Sales is much much harder. Clients don’t care about your skills. Clients care if you can solve their actual problems.
  - zelphirkalt 2y ago
    In my experience, admittedly not that long term yet, no one even looks at repositories. I got really good stuff in there, that demonstrates my developer skills, but hiring people never seemed to even have taken a look, nor shown any interest in what I might be able to present to them. Instead they me gave BS ad-hoc coding tasks in the interviews. Could also be, that they are unfamiliar with any of the not mainstream stuff I did and did not dare ask questions, because they felt out of their own depth.
bdcravens 2y ago
I've had good luck here, having been contacted based on what I posted on the the monthly Seeking Freelancer post. I think it's dried up now, but I found some projects from Codementor a few years ago.
reaperducer 2y ago
Look in unexpected places, like temp agencies. I was once in a similar position as you. I signed up with an agency that specialized in placing people in temporary jobs in creative companies. (Ad agencies, design studios, architecture firms, etc.). I ended up with a temporary web dev position that turned into a full-scale full-time warehouse automation job. Once they see you're reliable and can think, many non-tech companies will find places where your skills can be put to use. Tech is everywhere. Look outside the SV bubble.
gamegod 2y ago
As others said - use your network. Making a post on LinkedIn and trying to get your network to reshare it could help a lot.
mhitza 2y ago
I find contracts through my network and Upwork, the later became slower last x months, as general investments did. Play the numbers game. If you have a specific speciality you can use platforms like LinkedIn to reach out to companies that might need your service (through decision makers). You can also connect directly with digital agencies and let them know you are available if they need to offload some work. The LinkedIn jobs platform itself feels useless for contract work (at least in the EU) as most contract jobs are employee-like contracts disguised as contract work (full-time availability, no subcontracting/delegation).
sampton 2y ago
It depends on how badly you need the money. If you really need to get paid you are probably better off finding a full time job and quit after 9 months. Otherwise invest the time in yourself. Work on a passion project or a blog.
- prepend 2y ago
  Usually that will burn a bridge with that employer and look bad on your resume. Much different career wise than having short term contracts that are designed around a specific job. I know that companies don’t necessarily follow an ethical standard but I find that I can at least follow personal ethics and that’s within my control. I’ve always treated my employers like I would like to be treated, even if the employer was being a jerk. Over 30 years I’ve found that people remember and it’s surprising how acting ethically sticks in people’s minds and comes back in positive yields. I like to think I’d act the same way no matter what, but it’s a plus that acting properly ends up being better in the long run.
  - eweise 2y ago
    Ethics are great but so is feeding your family and paying your mortgage.
    - magicstefanos 2y ago
      Feeding your family is the more "ethical" thing here
      - Asraelite 2y ago
        I get what you're saying, but this reasoning has always rubbed me the wrong way. You will often hear scammers and con artists justify what they do by saying it's the only way they have to support their family. It's like, why is your family more important than any other family in the world? It's still a selfish act.
        2y ago
ernestipark 2y ago
Your network is always the best bet to start. Leverage past co-workers who can vouch for you, reach out, let people know you're available. If you're a part of YC or other similar investor/tech networks, often those are very strong referral networks. Beyond that, there are various niche job boards and sites like https://www.fractionaljobs.io/ https://www.fractionaljobs.io/, https://www.hirefraction.com/ https://www.hirefraction.com/, marketerhire.com depending on the type of work you do. Sites like upwork/toptal can be good but often are a race to the bottom. Relevant: I started a newsletter a little while back exploring this space for tech workers
- leros 2y ago
  I haven't found these fractional sites to be very useful for development work. The rates are low and the few dev jobs already have 100s of applications.
  - menaerus 2y ago
    I see rates around $100 all the way up to $200. Is that really considered low in the States?
    - ghaff 2y ago
      Probably mediocre. Even absent being a source of full-time income accounting for the fact that there's going to be a lot of unpaid/dead time, I personally won't take a job for less than $1K for a day+-ish unless it's really interesting or I'm doing a favor for someone I know. (One of the issues with short-term fractional work as an income source is that you can end up only being paid for a fairly small percentage of your total time. If the rate is good, that may be fine as a part-time job. But in my prior industry analyst stint, we actually had quite good day rates but we spent most of our time keeping up with industry happenings and writing free stuff.)
murph 2y ago
Try former employers. You've already got context, know the stack, whatever. They might be happy to have a known contributor solve some problem or project for them.
4b11b4 2y ago
Sign up for small company at bottom, find things to fix. Set timeline and expectations to leave in 9mo. By then you'll be running parts of the company. You may not actually want to do this long term, or it may be a nice side income. Plan for not continuing to do it, document well, and everyone will be happier
- em-bee 2y ago
  where does one find such a company?
hakaneskici 2y ago
In your situation, I'd focus on rephrasing my existing skill set in such a way that it emphasizes how I can help solve the current problems with scaling AI deployments. As for the "where" - keep an eye on growing AI startups that need to scale fast.
Ken_At_EM 2y ago
I'm game to talk to you if you want to ken AT erdosmiller DOT com, we're always on the lookout for fantastic talent.
- swalloweddotai 2y ago
  ull be hearing from me kenneth
Nelkins 2y ago
Not to be too much of a recruiter, but I started a software consultancy where we get this kind of work. Typically projects that last a quarter, but with some potential for extending (although they also frequently just last a quarter). I actually have a project in the pipeline right now that I'm looking for a dev for (if I can't find one, I'll end up just taking on the work myself). Email is in my profile if you want to connect :)
moralestapia 2y ago
[flagged]
snow_mac 2y ago
My suggestion is talk to small, indie recruiters. Big recruiting firms will not likely have these types of roles. I'm currently doing a 2 month contract, 40 hours a week, for a small tech consulting agency.
- em-bee 2y ago
  where do you find those recruiters?
zdragnar 2y ago
In my area, it's not uncommon for companies to use short term contracts to scale teams up temporarily. These companies often work with local recruiters, and some of those even specialize primarily in short term contract placement. In short, they're a quick and easy way to expand your network, so to speak, since they're always willing to take your resume even if they don't have anything immediately available.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
tzury 2y ago
A. Within your circles. Make sure everyone knows you are available. B. Think of best creative solutions you came up with throughout your career. Use LLM to write a post every other day (!). Within a month, you have 15 posts, which people will find useful as they search. At the bottom f each put your contact details and a closing paragraph that you are available for consultancy.
- arandomhuman 2y ago
  >Use LLM to write a post every other day (!). Within a month, you have 15 posts, which people will find useful as they search. I don't think anyone will find this useful.
whalesalad 2y ago
I found my current gig using moonlightwork.com but that was over 5 years ago now.
paxys 2y ago
Having the right technical skills is only 50% of the requirement (and realistically even less than that). The harder battle is being a good salesman. Push yourself and your services at every opportunity. Send mass emails to friends and old collegues. Write daily puke-inducing posts on LinkedIn. Write blog posts and make toy Github projects with "looking for work" blurbs at the top of each one. Set a goal to post N times a day on X/Threads/LinkedIn/Reddit/wherever else you can think of, and hit those targets. Keep doing all of this for an extended period of time and the leads will start flowing in. Then you need to start putting even more effort into closing those leads and signing contracts.
- ryandrake 2y ago
  Ugh. This is probably one of those "Thanks, I hate it!" moments. You're probably 100% right, and this is why I could never be an independent contractor. This kind of self-promotion and lead generation seems so demeaning, slimy, and shameful, and I'd probably die of embarrassment if I ever had to do it. Yet it comes so naturally to some people. It sucks that this kind of skill is required to make it on your own.
  - ghaff 2y ago
    How else would anyone actually know that you were available? And that they should give you money? And, even if you get referred, you still need to seal the deal. And even within a larger company, unless someone like your manager more or less does it for you, "advertising" your accomplishments is pretty essential if you want anyone to reward your accomplishments.
    - ranger_danger 2y ago
      it's not about forcing yourself to be a good salesman, but rather about showcasing your skills, expertise, and personality in a genuine and authentic way
      - paxys 2y ago
        Everyone in the world, including a million experienced programmers, are already showcasing their skills in a "genuine and authentic" way. Why are you better than anyone else for the job?
aprdm 2y ago
Networking with people you know in your career
zhs 2y ago
You could check out https://www.gofractional.com https://www.gofractional.com, it's built for this kind of thing.
ryandrake 2y ago
A lot of people are probably going to reply with "Use your network!" which has always struck me as kind of vaguely incomplete and unhelpful advice. It's like telling an investor "Buy low and sell high." and leaving it at that. OK, thank you, Captain Obvious, that's wonderful, but how? Maybe it's different in the independent contracting world, but I've found my "network" only semi-helpful in gaining employment. They can give good ideas about companies to try, they can help you refine your resume, and do interview coaching, and if you're lucky they work at the same company you want to apply for so can submit your resume with the "recommend" box ticked, but that's all they seem to be able to do. I've never once had someone in my network who had his hands directly on the "hire this man!" lever at the company.
- alaithea 2y ago
  This is going to go pretty OT from the original post. The handful of times in my ~20 year career that I've gotten a shortened interview process because of connections, the organization has turned out to be a dumpster fire. Admittedly, I ignored red flags that I wouldn't have if I wasn't feeling special for having an "in," so part of that is on me. But lowering hiring standards to preference one person means they'll lower the standards for others, too, and that has consequences. As much as I'd love there to be shortcuts in life, I'm not sure they really exist.
- weitendorf 2y ago
  I think someone in OP’s situation is likely to have several friends and acquaintances that are at least engineering managers at this point in their career, who in many companies (not huge ones) can have a lot of influence over hiring. If you work in startups and stuff it’s highly possible that some friend or acquaintance is a founder that is currently hiring. The main reason I’d second the advice to use their network is that I get tons and tons of unsolicited contact from developer contracting firms and basically don’t trust any of them. The only people I have contracted with are people I knew already and trusted. Also, if I did end up paying contract developers who I didn’t trust already, I’d still probably not be willing to pay any of them exceptionally unless they were a known entity, whereas someone I trust already would be less of a financial risk since I’d have a sense of what value they’d actually add. Anyway, I think the answer to your problem is “build your network” but I always found that advice kind of silly. The actual valuable parts of your network are people who you’ve built relationships with while working, which is more of an incidental than deliberate process in most cases. I guess maybe you could be a little intentional about it though by carefully choosing where you work and who you work with, and how you engage with others at work.
toptal 2y ago
CEO of Toptal here. If you like, I can ensure we review your profile and client matching history to see if there's anything we overlooked. I'm available on Slack or taso@toptal.com. We’ll see if we can optimize your visibility to clients needing backend/data optimization experts. While we look into this, Opire (an open-source bounties site) has lots of short-term opportunities.
- dep_b 2y ago
  I quit using Toptal because I was living in Western Europe and got extremely lowballed at a given point. As if I simply had to match the rates of people from Eastern Europe or Northern Africa. I got a better hourly rate through the platform when still living in Latin America. Before Covid, it was amazing.
  - hnisoss 2y ago
    I'm doing my last engagement on toptal rn as well. Will quit after. The company I m working for is awesome but toptal part not so much anymore. From staff to FUD. They cut down my rate to 1/3 of what I used to charge few years back. (They still bill client 2x what I get, of course).
    - rnewme 1y ago
      Well, that ended well!
- lokhura 2y ago
  I hope Toptal has changed since I interviewed with them in 2015, because it was one of the worst tech interview experiences I had in a while. The interviewer was rude and clearly inexperienced in the tech stack he was asking questions about. I did a take home excersise and it was clear that he didn't even bother to read the code and just wanted to outsmart me.
- rglover 2y ago
  Curious, are there any exceptions to your coding test (I applied back in 2021 or so, not sure if this is still a requirement)? The test didn't like my solutions/speed (which meant I couldn't move forward), however, I'd say I'm more than qualified to be a Toptal dev (see projects in my HN profile [1]). [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/rglover https://news.ycombinator.com/rglover
zetazzed 2y ago
In a past startup, we had at least one person apply to our regular job postings with a cover that transparently said "I know this is a full-time, long-term posting, but I really want to be a contractor for a bounded time." Since it was a great fit and they were available right away (and we urgently needed more people), we made the "hire" and ended up working together for a while. Only worked because it was quite transparent and up front in the application though.
- aylmao 2y ago
  There's plenty of comments about searching one's network, but I was looking for a comment that mentioned this. Startups do tend to prefer permanent full-timers, but hiring the right person takes time and startups also very much like getting the work done. At one point I was unsure about joining a startup and it was them who suggested doing a temporary contract as a way to test the waters. In that case it was only a week but it was also enough for me to decide to join full-time. If joining full-time is a possibility you'd consider, I'd also mention that to the startup early on.
_ink_ 2y ago
Everybody says your network. Is this an US thing? Everyone in my network is employed in bigger or smaller companies. They might search for a full-time hire, but not for project work. Is this different in the EU or is my network too small?
- lnsru 2y ago
  In Germany freelance work is killed by “Scheinselbstständigkeit”. Authorities will eventually require to pay some taxes afterwards if you have only one client. Both from freelancer and the company. Companies don’t want that and shady body leasing agencies are thriving. The people from these agencies have separate offices and companies go sometimes too far to separate real employees and rented staff. Network does not help much.
- creer 2y ago
  Bigger or smaller companies is exactly who hires consultants and contractors (yes, medium too). A few companies aim for full time only - but I don't feel that's many. Some companies have overall contracts and outsource to specific services companies - and will rarely consider individuals (both US and Europe). Your network is not people who will necessarily hire you for a project. They are people who might at some point know something. Your network should also include other consultants and contractors who are likely to be over- or under-worked at any time and could use your help.
dj_axl 2y ago
Any niche? I mean, possibly large-scale data processing, yet I've seen people go more niche than that. In other words if your resume has 5+ years in one particular industry then that might be whom to target.
- shinypenguin 2y ago
  My niche is basically - I'm building distributed systems with minimal external dependencies that are fast and work reliably on the minimal amount of hardware/complexity. I do focus mainly on data processing and gathering. The result is, that my client does not need that many servers or that big of a devops team to manage the service and it's reliable and scalable. For example, I have build events gathering distributed system in Elixir (without external systems) that handled 930m events (33k reqs on peak hours) per day on 2 dedicated servers and that was only because minimal HA was required. It resulted in processing and aggregating of few billions of rows per day, in almost real time (few seconds behind realtime). It's still up to this day, few years later with only outages being updates of OS and Elixir/erlang updates to the app. I love learning and understanding things - do you know of any niche that would fit mine and where I could go deeper with my knowledge and experience?
develatio 2y ago
lemon.io :)
peterarmstrong 2y ago
Write an in-progress book about some niche = lead magnet for this type of work :) (disclosure: founder of Leanpub)
stuaxo 2y ago
I the UK I go on job sites and search for contracts. Though linkedin has eaten a lot and a bunch have merged.
asdf6969 2y ago
Just get a regular job and quit after a few months. Don’t put it on your resume and don’t work anywhere that the burnt bridges matter. They would have no problem laying you off after 6 months
perrygeo 2y ago
Don't focus on finding work, you'll just be selling your time to the lowest bidder. If you can afford it, build something for free, blog what you learn, and ship it. Build a portfolio of real working software and technical writing. If your software has users, talk to them and you should find plenty of work.
- em-bee 2y ago
  that's a lot of ifs. your project has to solve a needfor the right audience (people that are hiring) and you still have to put a lot of effort in to promote it.
rkpandey4tech 2y ago
I may have something for you. Please DM me at https://www.linkedin.com/in/ragpandey https://www.linkedin.com/in/ragpandey
swalloweddotai 2y ago
behind the wendys dumpster typically
FilosofumRex 2y ago
I offer two services to my clients, consulting/expertise and firefighting. The former pays for food, gas and grass; the the latter pays for everything else including skiing in the Alps and sunbathing in Cancun. The purpose of business is not to sell but to create a customer...
- em-bee 2y ago
  how do you find your clients?
  - tony2016 2y ago
    He says what he does but never mentions how he gets clients which is the most important piece of information.
cauliflower99 2y ago
6 week contract at my company (not sure what your skillset is though): https://zinkworks.teamtailor.com/jobs/5678393-dba-graphdb-6-week-contract https://zinkworks.teamtailor.com/jobs/5678393-dba-graphdb-6-...
- shinypenguin 2y ago
  Thank you for the link, sadly I don't have enough experience with graphdb, so it's outside of my skillset.
dubeye 2y ago
It would seem that marketing was not one of your responsibilities in past roles
- shinypenguin 2y ago
  Definitely not, I was always in strong technical roles - any pointers where to start with marketing? :)
liammoore 2y ago
A lot of the advice here about networking and marketing yourself is solid, but I want to address this part of your question directly - “Do you know of any project boards or feature bounty platforms to find short-term projects?” I’ve faced a similar issue with traditional freelancing platforms, so I ended up building a platform where experienced engineers can work with agencies to manage and deliver projects. It’s a different model from traditional outsourcing, where you can either bring your own projects or get matched with ones based on your skillset. You’d be in a technical leadership role, helping build and manage a team of developers to deliver the project. You can also have as much hands-on involvement with the coding as you choose. It could be a good fit for you given your situation and experience. I’ve written a blog detailing the idea in more detail, feel free to check it out and reach out with questions - https://sourceror.co.uk/blog/how-tech-leaders-can-gain-experience-and-extra-income https://sourceror.co.uk/blog/how-tech-leaders-can-gain-exper...
- em-bee 2y ago
  this looks interesting. but i am missing steps for engineers to join the talent pool. the frontpage only addresses projects and agencies looking for people, but not people looking for work. there i no way for engineers to sign up.
  - liammoore 2y ago
    We’re currently only working with a handful of tech leaders and agencies as part of our beta, so we don’t have a sign up for this just yet. I think you’d be a great fit - you can contact me at liam@sourceror.co.uk and we can get you on board
brokegrammer 2y ago
I've been wondering the same thing. Been blogging and posting on Reddit + Freelancer Seeking Freelancer threads on HN but nothing came up so far. Don't know if it's because I'm using an old tech-stack (Python + Django) or if my communication needs improving. It's definitely tough to get even one client these days.

valbaca 2y ago

> deeply shameful Your feelings are what they are, but this is the least shameful post I would ever see on LinkedIn. It's someone actually looking for work! and not just posting some super cringe low-IQ engagement-farm copypasta. Finding work is exactly what LinkedIn ought to be for

ghaff 2y ago
I certainly don't think it's shameful. But, while that's more or less what LinkedIn was intended for, it's also become sort of a last man standing medium for professional professional posts--or at least pointers to such--unless you can organically drive enough traffic to a subscription or a website.
- inetknght 2y ago
  > it's also become sort of a last man standing medium for professional professional posts--or at least pointers to such-- With you so far... > unless you can organically drive enough traffic to a subscription or a website. Ahh no, I hope you don't mean to "organically" drive "enough" traffic from LinkedIn to a subscription or website elsewhere? Because that's exactly the kind of thing that's killing LinkedIn for job search and professional networking.
  - ghaff 2y ago
    Professional networking mostly happens in-person anyway. For me, LinkedIn is mostly an updating Rolodex. But, if you have a newsletter or website, you probably need to drive traffic somehow. LinkedIn isn't the only mechanism and maybe not a very good one but it is a channel at least in the tech industry.
- doright 2y ago
  I guess the reality is, what we term "shameful, amoral, slimy and vapid LinkedIn spammers" are actually thousands of relatively like-minded people all saying some variation of "please let me get/keep a job or I won't be able to keep living" in just a creative/repetitive enough fashion that one or more recruiters/persons who know other people will keep them in orbit for the next source of income. I have been on the other side of this (not doing it) and the effects are fairly straightforward: no more paychecks. I guess if you're not a recruiter or your job prospects are taken care of, you can safely pretend the LinkedIn social feed doesn't exist - it isn't written for you. Its sole purpose is for people to get what they need to survive and carry on. So I've resolved to not blame others for having to post there so much. This is money - hence life - were talking about here, unfortunately or not.
  - em-bee 2y ago
    i don't quite understand what caused the no more paychecks, if you were on the other side of this...
racl101 2y ago
Could not have said it better.
ge96 2y ago
OMG there was one about how an engineer in San Francisco is crying about his $2K in salad bills and his Cyber Truck while making like a half a mil a year
- SCUSKU 2y ago
  Surely it was satire? Surely...? Please
- angvp 2y ago
  That was a sarcastic one, made by a comedian who used to work in tech, lol
  - fragmede 2y ago
    I'd guess that's Austin Nasso and TechRoastShow. They clearly know the subject matter well. https://www.instagram.com/austinnasso/?hl=en https://www.instagram.com/austinnasso/?hl=en https://www.instagram.com/techroastshow/?hl=en https://www.instagram.com/techroastshow/?hl=en
- Cerium 2y ago
  For others who missed it.. https://www.threads.net/@austinnasso/post/DFLc9-hv4xg?hl=en https://www.threads.net/@austinnasso/post/DFLc9-hv4xg?hl=en

Asraelite 2y ago
> you are not responsible for other families. Why not? Do you not consider yourself at all responsible for the wellbeing of society?
- em-bee 2y ago
  that's a very philosophical question, and i am happy to engage in a discussion if you like. let me start with that i believe that it is the very purpose of humanity to contribute to an ever advancing civilization. so yes, i do consider myself responsible for the wellbeing of society. in fact i am making that very choice right now, living with my family in a developing country so that i can make a meaningful contribution there and teach my children important values of life, instead of going back home where i could live on social benefits because caring for my children would prevent me from getting a job. but at the end of the day i can't let my children starve to achieve that goal, nor am i responsible to feed all my neighbors who sometimes struggle to actually afford all their daily necessities. there has to be a balance somewhere. and as i said the balance is to not resort to unethical behavior. but that's not the same thing as giving other families a higher priority than my own which is what you are suggesting (you are not explicitly saying it, but the opposite reading of "why is your family more important than others?" is "why should other families be more important than yours?".) i brought these children into the world, and my responsibility is towards them first. this does not mean that i ignore the needs of others, if i can help them. it also does not mean that i focus on giving my children an advantage over others, or that i protect them from their own mistakes. all i am doing is to make sure that they are healthy and learn, in school and in life. that is my priority because it is my responsibility alone. noone else is going to do that for me. i am the only one who can make sure that it happens. caring for society on the other hand is a group responsibility, not an individual one. i can and do contribute to that, but only as much as my primary responsibility of caring for my children allows.

kmoser 2y ago

Independent contractor here. Admittedly, it's not for everybody. But once you've built up a base of clients who need your services regularly, you don't need to keep seeking more, at least not at nearly the same rate. Also, word of mouth will keep people coming to you. The reality is that I almost never have to sell myself. But I've been doing this for decades, and YMMV. Of course, your ability to do this will be somewhat dependent on your stomach for communicating with strangers who come your way.

ghaff 2y ago
Yeah. I have a contractor at the moment who has been in business for a long time and inherited the business from his father. He doesn't market or advertise. But he still needs to communicate and deal with someone who comes his way.
mancerayder 2y ago
Do market downturns affect you greatly? I'm curious how the past 12 months have gone so far. As someone who's considered what you're doing.
- kmoser 2y ago
  Not really, because the bulk of my work is building websites, and even in a down market, a website is an integral part of my clients' business. My work is not really seasonal, either. To be honest, the distinction between full time employee vs. contractor is less important (i.e. affects your work less) than other factors like your capacity and willingness to engage with people, industry, tech stack, and willingness to learn new stacks.
  - ornornor 2y ago
    Wry curious to know what is your strategy for sales and marketing. How did you find your first customers and how do you keep getting more (besides existing ones comes back for more) Would chat privately if you prefer but no contact details in your bio.
    - kmoser 2y ago
      A few times in my career I've responded to job listings and contacted recruiters but these days I do no sales/marketing. The vast majority of jobs I've gotten, even the first few, have been through contacts I made online in the BBS days. I was also lucky that my first few real jobs were long-term freelance contracts (1-2 years each) so I didn't have to look for work very often. The landscape has changed tremendously since then, though, and these days a resume is less important than a good portfolio. My advice: join a small, local tech oriented community, contribute regularly, and don't discount the value of F2F. Happy to go into more detail here, or contact me at kmoser.com.

doright 2y ago

I just see it as a "mask" you put on for a specific audience that has the potential to greatly increase your prospects and then take off everywhere else. At a certain point the prospects (not going broke) override any shame you could feel. I don't think selling oneself is something that reflects on one's character given what's at stake. The important people who know who you really are will also treat that mask of yours as fake. But they could also play up your appeals in the LinkedIn comments section to ultimately improve your chances of... getting a job. Which is all that really matters at the end of the day.

decGetAc 2y ago
I mean I agree it's a mask but still feels slimy. I can get behind not going broke > overriding any shame. But I do think that some people are better at lying to themselves that the choices are going broke or make independent contractor work by selling yourself like that. There's the obvious route which is to just not be an independent contractor and get a 'normal' job where you still have to do some of this nauseating selling yourself but at only a few critical times and way less public. No shame for those who want to be an independent contractor at the cost of selling yourself like that but just sharing that I can't seem to trick myself into thinking it's a go broke or make it work situation. I think some value the independent nature of it and say it's worth the embarrassment that gp talks about. Was just sharing how it's not a go broke or make it work because well it's a bit of a luxury (because normal job is always there)
- bruce511 2y ago
  It's interesting that you're embarrassed by the notion of "selling yourself". Shame from self-promotion is a very cultural thing, and I'm guessing deeply embedded in your upbringing. "Don't boast" is certainly commonly taught to children. Of course children are explicitly given everything they need. Adults need to get it for themselves. If you are in business you need to advertise. If you are in the contract business you need to advertise you. If you can't do that, then that's OK, go get a job. Advertising is not slimy or shameful. It's part of the job. It can be done well or badly. But the world doesn't "owe" you anything, nor will it seek you out. If you want to be independent then you need to work harder than the dependent who has an employer.