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I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. One of the "Suggested

I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? All the people who were cutting engineered stone with unsafe methods, are now just going to be cutting granite and other natural stone with the same safety practices that led to this being banned. I really don't get it. This whole "But we tried to enforce the safety standards on the industry" is a load of nonsense - How many businesses got fined or shut down for unsafe practices that caused silicosis for their staff? None. The cycle will continue, and we'll be back here in 10 years when the "safe alternatives" are getting banned.

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irjustin 3y ago
Agreed - I'm surprised the Aussie version of OSHA isn't the one taking care of this problem. I feel really bad for the early workers who didn't know getting affected. That's downright terrible. But I imagine there's a method of safely working with this material. And, there's ALWAYS going to be hazardous materials - you can't ban them all. You raise the standard of the people working with materials. This feels like - oh melting steel is too hot and can be dangerous - we'll ban melting steel. NOW, if it's like asbestos and the end consumer can get affected then I 100% agree with this ruling.
- jackvalentine 3y ago
  > But I imagine there's a method of safely working with this material. You can read the report if you'd like, basically they weighed up a bunch of options. https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-02/decision_ris_-_managing_the_risks_of_crystalline_silica_at_work_-_for_publication_pdf.pdf https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/202... > NOW, if it's like asbestos and the end consumer can get affected then I 100% agree with this ruling. It is - the final fitment is usually on site with dry cuts made contaminating the area it's installed in.
  - irjustin 3y ago
    thanks I appreciate the link. Looks like the one we're interested in this thread is Option 4 (also 5b to cover other things like granite). They did a pretty good laying out the details.
oooyay 3y ago
Tooling and PPE are part of the problem but not all of it. People who clean up job sites are also getting sick: > "We actually not only saw people who were directly cutting and grinding the stone, but we saw people who were just sweeping up the work site after the stone had been cut," says Rose. "They were exposed to the silica particles that were suspended in the air just with housekeeping duties." So, basically everyone needs to wear a P100 all the time when on site until the site has totally been cleaned up. In a manufacturing environment, if you're on the floor you wear a mask and there must be a dust collection system and tools that perform dust collection or mitigation. In this case that'd be water saws. Read the threads here, a lot people don't like wearing respirators. The outcome isn't surprising. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/10/02/766028237/workers-are-falling-ill-even-dying-after-making-kitchen-countertops https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/10/02/7660282...
- Ekaros 3y ago
  I wonder instead of these diesel or whatever bans. Why not mandate that everyone wears sufficient PPE 24/7. I mean protecting your health instead of removing source seems entirely reasonable in that mindset.
- abracadaniel 3y ago
  There’s got to be ways to cut stone that don’t involve people sweeping up the dust with a broom. Water jets, wet saws, or even just a water mister and a wet/dry vac with a filter is going to be much better than just going about the same process with a different stone that they hope won’t be as bad on their lungs.
  - chii 3y ago
    The sad state of australian industry is that there's very little investment in tooling, plant and equipment. Businesses don't want to invest, and even if they do, they find it hard to find any financing as banks don't want to lend. It makes such tooling expensive, and thus a lot of small businesses don't (or can't) upgrade their tooling.
defrost 3y ago
> All the people who were cutting engineered stone with unsafe methods, are now just going to be cutting granite and other natural stone with the same safety practices that led to this being banned. > I really don't get it. Before engineered stone took off like crazy people were already cutting natural stone, working as stone masons, working at BGC quarries (stone mining, crushing, grading, delivery). After engineered stone became fashionable the rates of silicosis in under 35 year old tradespeople spiked in a sharply noticable way. After the engineered stone ban things will likely return to previous levels of "it happens but it's acceptably rare". For whatever reason ( . . . insert theory . . . ) engineered stone manufacture and cutting is much much much worse wrt health issues. For whatever reason your desk bound rational rule of thumb doesn't track against the data.
- ShadowBanThis01 3y ago
  Not saying those figures aren't valid, but isn't it also possible that the increased affordability of man-made stone meant that these workers were doing more "stone" installations as opposed to tile or other options?
  - amluto 3y ago
    Hmm, this isn’t crazy. IIRC in the nineties and earlier, porcelain tile countertops were very common. Granite and marble were exotic. Porcelain is high in silicates, but not so high in silica. Glaze is (I think) amorphous, like glass. And your average tile installer cuts with a wet saw. Marble is mostly calcium carbonate. Granite contains lots of quartz.
    - xupybd 3y ago
      Engineered stone is easy to cut on site. Real cheap to work with that's why it beat Porcelain. I don't think Porcelain is as dangerous.
      - amluto 3y ago
        Porcelain is also easy to cut with a tile saw, and tile saws make very little dust. Porcelain tile doesn’t look fun to cut with a dremel or angle grinder.
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kazinator 3y ago
The engineered stone is just powder held together with plastic resin, isn't it? Maybe it cuts so easily that they skip using water.
adolph 3y ago
> One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) > So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? It isn’t a good idea to assume linear effects, especially with biology.
- Ekaros 3y ago
  Specially when stuff you are comparing something rather novel basically existed before animals moved on land. Stone formations wearing down can causing dust has happened for hundreds of millions of years, if not billions. Biological systems are quite adapted to this type of exposure. Just like heavy metals, some poisons, and some radioactivity.
  - mmis1000 3y ago
    I believe people work in mines develops silicosis all the time. Isn't this exactly where we found silicosis exists? Cutting natural stone didn't seems to be a 100% safe-proof option in my opinion.
    - defrost 3y ago
      Medical data shows that people who work in mines develop silicosis some of the time. Cutting natural stone is not a 100% safe occupation (like almost every occupation). The specific difference here in the case in Australia is that since Engineered Stone first entered the Australian market in the early 2000’s medical data shows a significant rise in silicosis cases. It's not that Before Engineered Stone was 100% safe, it's that Post Engineered Stone appears to be considerably less safe. Maybe it's the resin, maybe it's the particle size that's so uniform, maybe it's a coincidence . . .
stephen_g 3y ago
It’s incredible how bad tradies are at PPE. When my solar panels were being installed on my house, the electrician was happily about to drill through asbestos cement eave lining before I stopped him, and at least made him put on a disposable P2 respirator mask I had lying around. But he still released asbestos fibres into the air and the ceiling cavity where his colleagues were working, and will have got it on his clothes and hair. How many times had he done it completely unprotected at other people’s houses without even thinking? (Australian houses often contain AC sheeting in houses built between the 50s to the 80s) With silica it’s a similar story, we were moving in to an older office block that again had asbestos in the ceiling tiles, and I was wearing a respirator because again electricians had drilled it in a bunch of places (inside this time, ended up going through very expensive decontamination a couple of days later including ripping out and replacing half of the brand new carpet). Anyway, I was in the server room where an air-conditioner guy was installing a split system unit, and he asked me about it and I told him what was happened. He then said something like “Oh yeah, I definitely should have been more careful with that kind of stuff when I was a young fella”, and then proceeds to start drilling through the double brick wall (to install the piping to the outdoor unit) with no mask or hearing protection… Cutting brick and concrete releases silica into the air too, most tradies just give no thought to using proper PPE…
- paxys 3y ago
  Sadly that's just the culture. I've seen apprentices laughed at by old timers and called pussies because they were taking basic precautions and wearing PPE. And then to fit in they themselves took on that same attitude.
  - piperswe 3y ago
    It hurts me when I see my tradie trainee husband (at school to be an auto mechanic) skip PPE in places he really shouldn't (e.g. latex gloves when handling carcinogenic fluids). I don't really know as I can do much other than state my objections to deaf ears though.
    - _3u10 3y ago
medion 3y ago
Completely anecdotal but my father in law is a stone mason at 75 years old, working since 16 and wears zero PPE. Not even ear muffs on a large cutting machine the size of an SUV. Wears open toe sandals. Incredibly, he is insanely fit, not an ounce of hearing loss, and works full time to this day. I helped him lay a stone wall this year and I dare say he’s possibly stronger than me at almost half his age. It’s honestly remarkable.
- paxys 3y ago
  That's just statistics. 5 out of 6 people playing Russian Roulette will be perfectly fine, and will tell you how safe it is.
- rightbyte 3y ago
  Both hearing loss from bangs and lung degradation from dust is probably very hereditary?
zlg_codes 3y ago
Good point. Government talks big about regulation and how much they care, but when examined, look! They bend right over for business.
- stubish 3y ago
  The opposite. The trade unions pushed this through.
killingtime74 3y ago
I mean if people break the law there's no need for the law? Speeding is illegal and kills many. The alternative, driving slower, is not perfectly safe. I guess the Germans don't criminalise speeding?
- MandieD 3y ago
  It’s a lot easier to get a one to three month driving ban in Germany for speeding than in the US, and a driving ban in Germany means “you may not drive at all.” 20 mph over gets a one month driving ban plus about a 200 EUR fine. Only the longer, rural stretches of Autobahns still have unlimited speed, and your insurance probably has the condition that they won’t pay out if you were going over the national recommended limit (130 km/h, or about 80 mph) It’s a looser driving environment than most of its neighbors (Switzerland is covered in speed cameras), but it’s nowhere near the nationwide speed track a lot of Americans imagine it is. Get caught speeding enough, and you can lose your license for longer, or even for life. Driving is a privilege in Germany - there’s always the bus and train, or somewhere to move that has them.
- RCitronsBroker 3y ago
  just saying, Germany enforces speeding laws DAMN strict. We have radar cameras ("Blitzer") and random police patrols with handheld or mobile equipment. The only thing different here is that we don’t have a general speed limit, if sections of the autobahn meet the safety requirements, they can be marked unrestricted. You can drive as fast as you want there, but the majority of sections are limited to 130km/h due to steep(ish) curves, visibility, traffic and noise pollution guidelines. That said, we do love our Autobahn and there ARE quite a few unrestricted sections left, my favorite is the A30. All open, starting at the NL border up until Osnabrück.
protocolture 3y ago
The Australian government has 2 levers. Tax or Ban. Their reasons are usually bullshit, such as their Vape ban, which implies that border farce cant keep nicotine out of the country in this one specific product category.
ChuckMcM 3y ago
> I really don't get it. I have no insight into Australia's workings here, in California this kind of WTF can happen in the sort of situation where there is an industry that is being disrupted/destroyed by the 'thing' in question and as a result a way is found to make the 'thing' bad (but not in a way that just says "It makes other options noncompetitive but in a way you can't argue with." Health issues are the go to straw man in that case. You absolutely could create big fines for the contracting and construction companies that sold an engineered stone solution which would protect the workers as it would be noncompetitive to not follow the rules and risk a huge fine. But that wouldn't help the granite and stainless steel countertop folks would it? Or the contractors that install granite or stainless steel.
croes 3y ago
>One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) >So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives" I doubt that the connection is linear. Half the silica doesn't mean double exposure time has the same effect.
rob74 3y ago
I'm usually all for worker protection, but this is really ludicrous. What next? Banning saws because people keep cutting off their fingers?
- bombcar 3y ago
  Someone hasn’t read up on the sawstop lawsuits and suggested laws in the area.
vintermann 3y ago
I'm amazed at the person cited in the article who worked in administration at a quarry, developed silicosis and didn't know what it was. That suggests it's not just people willfully ignoring PPE practices, it's that they genuinely have no clue how dangerous rock dust is.
lostlogin 3y ago
> So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? I’m not sure it works like that? With many things, a lower dose gives more time for repair mechanisms so the effect of a reduction could be outsized. I’d like to see some data. Also, granite is likely more expensive. So less of it will be used.
engineer_22 3y ago
It's really frustrating to be bathing in these holier-than-thou attitudes on the Internet these days. I've noticed the language on social media is also getting worse. I really enjoy the people you can meet on the internet, but the flippant disrespect is really hard for me to accept as normal. OP your comment is not the worst of them, but it seems to be indicative of a trend. I wish you well.
- rightbyte 3y ago
  It is a kind of "cope" mechanism I think. One is essentially blaming the victims so that you won't get depressed. In the extreme case they only feel sorry for animals or small children, since they are always innocent.
dantiberian 3y ago
From the report (page 56): Exposure to RCS from engineered stone causes silicosis typified by a faster onset and more rapid progression than that caused by RCS [Respirable crystalline silica] from other sources, including natural stone. When engineered stone is processed, the dust generated contains higher levels of RCS, and that RCS has different physical and chemical properties that likely contribute to the more rapid and severe disease. There is also evidence to suggest that other components of engineered stone may contribute to the toxic effects of engineered stone dust, either alone or by exacerbating the effects of RCS. ... The increased risks posed by RCS from engineered stone, increased rate of silicosis diagnosis amongst engineered stone workers, and the faster and more severe disease progression amongst this group, combined with a multi-faceted failure of this industry to comply with the model WHS laws means that continued work with engineered stone poses an unacceptable risk to workers. The use of all engineered stone should be prohibited. https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-10/decision_ris_-_prohibition_on_the_use_of_engineered_stone_-_27_october_2023.pdf https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/202...
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accurrent 3y ago
I've worked previously as a firefighter, a lot of the stuff that we do can be considered high risk. PPE is incredibly important however there are several issues I have noticed while working with PPE. 1. PPE can get in the way of being efficient. From personal experience this is one of the most painful things. Engineers design equipment to meet requirements. The people setting these requirements are often bureaucrats who have no knowledge of what it feels like to be doing the manual labor. Some of them may never have even handled any heavy machinery in their life - the end result is you end up with unergonomic tools. Since, the workers are not the ones paying for the tools, the upper management will select things that hit their own KPIs. Some how you are expected to hit unrealistic throughputs with tools that dont work well with your PPE. End result is most people will neglect PPE and find ways around it. 2. PPE upkeep One has to keep equipment in good condition. Using boots with holes is not going to be a good idea. Corporate culture however is such that they make replacing PPE very painful, in part because PPE is ridiculously expensive in certain contexts. Good managers and supervisors will make sure their crew has safe equipment but often have to take the blame if they overspend. Lazy managers/supervisors will make it a nightmare if anything gets damaged. Unfortunately the number of lazy supervisors far outstrips good supervisors. This can result in things like black markets for PPEs. 3. Workplace culture It can be "manly" to do things in an unsafe manner. This takes a lot of work to solve but the best way to solve it is by trying to inculcate a culture where people don't cause suffering for others just because they suffered. There is no need to "pay forward" a malpractice. If someone abused you earlier for conforming to something, that doesn't give you the right to abuse your junior. The problem is people who do this kind of change often go unnoticed.
gwnywg 3y ago
I came to the same conclusion. Year ago I was cleaning my flat after renovation, there was lots of dust settled everywhere and my first thought was - how do I protect my lungs? There were many one-time-use face masks in hardware store, but those masks did not look like good enough- mainly because of lack of filter. So I bought slightly more expensive aparatus with proper filters. Yet, trademen who were doing the work did not care, they were not wearing anything to prevent dust from being inhaled. I felt so bad for them that I was vacuuming whole place each evening when they were gone (including walls), so at least they would start with no dust... Still, I was wondering how much of their future suffer will be because I was not asking them to protect themselves...
- valdiorn 3y ago
  They know the risks, if they choose to be idiots that's on them. Invest in some good PPE that doesn't get in the way. I have an air-fed mask I use when spraying lacquer, I do woodworking as a hobby. My small shop is set up with two different filtration systems to keep dust and VOC out of the air. I refuse to use isocyanate catalyzed compounds because of the health implications.
3minus1 3y ago
> I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. maybe it's because the "underlying problem" they are trying to address is people contracting and dying from silicosis

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irjustin 3y ago

Agreed - I'm surprised the Aussie version of OSHA isn't the one taking care of this problem. I feel really bad for the early workers who didn't know getting affected. That's downright terrible. But I imagine there's a method of safely working with this material. And, there's ALWAYS going to be hazardous materials - you can't ban them all. You raise the standard of the people working with materials. This feels like - oh melting steel is too hot and can be dangerous - we'll ban melting steel. NOW, if it's like asbestos and the end consumer can get affected then I 100% agree with this ruling.

jackvalentine 3y ago
> But I imagine there's a method of safely working with this material. You can read the report if you'd like, basically they weighed up a bunch of options. https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-02/decision_ris_-_managing_the_risks_of_crystalline_silica_at_work_-_for_publication_pdf.pdf https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/202... > NOW, if it's like asbestos and the end consumer can get affected then I 100% agree with this ruling. It is - the final fitment is usually on site with dry cuts made contaminating the area it's installed in.
- irjustin 3y ago
  thanks I appreciate the link. Looks like the one we're interested in this thread is Option 4 (also 5b to cover other things like granite). They did a pretty good laying out the details.

oooyay 3y ago

Tooling and PPE are part of the problem but not all of it. People who clean up job sites are also getting sick: > "We actually not only saw people who were directly cutting and grinding the stone, but we saw people who were just sweeping up the work site after the stone had been cut," says Rose. "They were exposed to the silica particles that were suspended in the air just with housekeeping duties." So, basically everyone needs to wear a P100 all the time when on site until the site has totally been cleaned up. In a manufacturing environment, if you're on the floor you wear a mask and there must be a dust collection system and tools that perform dust collection or mitigation. In this case that'd be water saws. Read the threads here, a lot people don't like wearing respirators. The outcome isn't surprising. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/10/02/766028237/workers-are-falling-ill-even-dying-after-making-kitchen-countertops https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/10/02/7660282...

Ekaros 3y ago
I wonder instead of these diesel or whatever bans. Why not mandate that everyone wears sufficient PPE 24/7. I mean protecting your health instead of removing source seems entirely reasonable in that mindset.
abracadaniel 3y ago
There’s got to be ways to cut stone that don’t involve people sweeping up the dust with a broom. Water jets, wet saws, or even just a water mister and a wet/dry vac with a filter is going to be much better than just going about the same process with a different stone that they hope won’t be as bad on their lungs.
- chii 3y ago
  The sad state of australian industry is that there's very little investment in tooling, plant and equipment. Businesses don't want to invest, and even if they do, they find it hard to find any financing as banks don't want to lend. It makes such tooling expensive, and thus a lot of small businesses don't (or can't) upgrade their tooling.

defrost 3y ago

> All the people who were cutting engineered stone with unsafe methods, are now just going to be cutting granite and other natural stone with the same safety practices that led to this being banned. > I really don't get it. Before engineered stone took off like crazy people were already cutting natural stone, working as stone masons, working at BGC quarries (stone mining, crushing, grading, delivery). After engineered stone became fashionable the rates of silicosis in under 35 year old tradespeople spiked in a sharply noticable way. After the engineered stone ban things will likely return to previous levels of "it happens but it's acceptably rare". For whatever reason ( . . . insert theory . . . ) engineered stone manufacture and cutting is much much much worse wrt health issues. For whatever reason your desk bound rational rule of thumb doesn't track against the data.

ShadowBanThis01 3y ago
Not saying those figures aren't valid, but isn't it also possible that the increased affordability of man-made stone meant that these workers were doing more "stone" installations as opposed to tile or other options?
- amluto 3y ago
  Hmm, this isn’t crazy. IIRC in the nineties and earlier, porcelain tile countertops were very common. Granite and marble were exotic. Porcelain is high in silicates, but not so high in silica. Glaze is (I think) amorphous, like glass. And your average tile installer cuts with a wet saw. Marble is mostly calcium carbonate. Granite contains lots of quartz.
  - xupybd 3y ago
    Engineered stone is easy to cut on site. Real cheap to work with that's why it beat Porcelain. I don't think Porcelain is as dangerous.
    - amluto 3y ago
      Porcelain is also easy to cut with a tile saw, and tile saws make very little dust. Porcelain tile doesn’t look fun to cut with a dremel or angle grinder.

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kazinator 3y ago

The engineered stone is just powder held together with plastic resin, isn't it? Maybe it cuts so easily that they skip using water.

adolph 3y ago

> One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) > So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? It isn’t a good idea to assume linear effects, especially with biology.

Ekaros 3y ago
Specially when stuff you are comparing something rather novel basically existed before animals moved on land. Stone formations wearing down can causing dust has happened for hundreds of millions of years, if not billions. Biological systems are quite adapted to this type of exposure. Just like heavy metals, some poisons, and some radioactivity.
- mmis1000 3y ago
  I believe people work in mines develops silicosis all the time. Isn't this exactly where we found silicosis exists? Cutting natural stone didn't seems to be a 100% safe-proof option in my opinion.
  - defrost 3y ago
    Medical data shows that people who work in mines develop silicosis some of the time. Cutting natural stone is not a 100% safe occupation (like almost every occupation). The specific difference here in the case in Australia is that since Engineered Stone first entered the Australian market in the early 2000’s medical data shows a significant rise in silicosis cases. It's not that Before Engineered Stone was 100% safe, it's that Post Engineered Stone appears to be considerably less safe. Maybe it's the resin, maybe it's the particle size that's so uniform, maybe it's a coincidence . . .

stephen_g 3y ago

It’s incredible how bad tradies are at PPE. When my solar panels were being installed on my house, the electrician was happily about to drill through asbestos cement eave lining before I stopped him, and at least made him put on a disposable P2 respirator mask I had lying around. But he still released asbestos fibres into the air and the ceiling cavity where his colleagues were working, and will have got it on his clothes and hair. How many times had he done it completely unprotected at other people’s houses without even thinking? (Australian houses often contain AC sheeting in houses built between the 50s to the 80s) With silica it’s a similar story, we were moving in to an older office block that again had asbestos in the ceiling tiles, and I was wearing a respirator because again electricians had drilled it in a bunch of places (inside this time, ended up going through very expensive decontamination a couple of days later including ripping out and replacing half of the brand new carpet). Anyway, I was in the server room where an air-conditioner guy was installing a split system unit, and he asked me about it and I told him what was happened. He then said something like “Oh yeah, I definitely should have been more careful with that kind of stuff when I was a young fella”, and then proceeds to start drilling through the double brick wall (to install the piping to the outdoor unit) with no mask or hearing protection… Cutting brick and concrete releases silica into the air too, most tradies just give no thought to using proper PPE…

paxys 3y ago
Sadly that's just the culture. I've seen apprentices laughed at by old timers and called pussies because they were taking basic precautions and wearing PPE. And then to fit in they themselves took on that same attitude.
- piperswe 3y ago
  It hurts me when I see my tradie trainee husband (at school to be an auto mechanic) skip PPE in places he really shouldn't (e.g. latex gloves when handling carcinogenic fluids). I don't really know as I can do much other than state my objections to deaf ears though.
  - _3u10 3y ago

medion 3y ago

Completely anecdotal but my father in law is a stone mason at 75 years old, working since 16 and wears zero PPE. Not even ear muffs on a large cutting machine the size of an SUV. Wears open toe sandals. Incredibly, he is insanely fit, not an ounce of hearing loss, and works full time to this day. I helped him lay a stone wall this year and I dare say he’s possibly stronger than me at almost half his age. It’s honestly remarkable.

paxys 3y ago
That's just statistics. 5 out of 6 people playing Russian Roulette will be perfectly fine, and will tell you how safe it is.
rightbyte 3y ago
Both hearing loss from bangs and lung degradation from dust is probably very hereditary?

zlg_codes 3y ago

Good point. Government talks big about regulation and how much they care, but when examined, look! They bend right over for business.

stubish 3y ago
The opposite. The trade unions pushed this through.

killingtime74 3y ago

I mean if people break the law there's no need for the law? Speeding is illegal and kills many. The alternative, driving slower, is not perfectly safe. I guess the Germans don't criminalise speeding?

MandieD 3y ago
It’s a lot easier to get a one to three month driving ban in Germany for speeding than in the US, and a driving ban in Germany means “you may not drive at all.” 20 mph over gets a one month driving ban plus about a 200 EUR fine. Only the longer, rural stretches of Autobahns still have unlimited speed, and your insurance probably has the condition that they won’t pay out if you were going over the national recommended limit (130 km/h, or about 80 mph) It’s a looser driving environment than most of its neighbors (Switzerland is covered in speed cameras), but it’s nowhere near the nationwide speed track a lot of Americans imagine it is. Get caught speeding enough, and you can lose your license for longer, or even for life. Driving is a privilege in Germany - there’s always the bus and train, or somewhere to move that has them.
RCitronsBroker 3y ago
just saying, Germany enforces speeding laws DAMN strict. We have radar cameras ("Blitzer") and random police patrols with handheld or mobile equipment. The only thing different here is that we don’t have a general speed limit, if sections of the autobahn meet the safety requirements, they can be marked unrestricted. You can drive as fast as you want there, but the majority of sections are limited to 130km/h due to steep(ish) curves, visibility, traffic and noise pollution guidelines. That said, we do love our Autobahn and there ARE quite a few unrestricted sections left, my favorite is the A30. All open, starting at the NL border up until Osnabrück.

protocolture 3y ago

The Australian government has 2 levers. Tax or Ban. Their reasons are usually bullshit, such as their Vape ban, which implies that border farce cant keep nicotine out of the country in this one specific product category.

ChuckMcM 3y ago

> I really don't get it. I have no insight into Australia's workings here, in California this kind of WTF can happen in the sort of situation where there is an industry that is being disrupted/destroyed by the 'thing' in question and as a result a way is found to make the 'thing' bad (but not in a way that just says "It makes other options noncompetitive but in a way you can't argue with." Health issues are the go to straw man in that case. You absolutely could create big fines for the contracting and construction companies that sold an engineered stone solution which would protect the workers as it would be noncompetitive to not follow the rules and risk a huge fine. But that wouldn't help the granite and stainless steel countertop folks would it? Or the contractors that install granite or stainless steel.

croes 3y ago

>One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) >So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives" I doubt that the connection is linear. Half the silica doesn't mean double exposure time has the same effect.

rob74 3y ago

I'm usually all for worker protection, but this is really ludicrous. What next? Banning saws because people keep cutting off their fingers?

bombcar 3y ago
Someone hasn’t read up on the sawstop lawsuits and suggested laws in the area.

vintermann 3y ago

I'm amazed at the person cited in the article who worked in administration at a quarry, developed silicosis and didn't know what it was. That suggests it's not just people willfully ignoring PPE practices, it's that they genuinely have no clue how dangerous rock dust is.

lostlogin 3y ago

> So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? I’m not sure it works like that? With many things, a lower dose gives more time for repair mechanisms so the effect of a reduction could be outsized. I’d like to see some data. Also, granite is likely more expensive. So less of it will be used.

engineer_22 3y ago

It's really frustrating to be bathing in these holier-than-thou attitudes on the Internet these days. I've noticed the language on social media is also getting worse. I really enjoy the people you can meet on the internet, but the flippant disrespect is really hard for me to accept as normal. OP your comment is not the worst of them, but it seems to be indicative of a trend. I wish you well.

rightbyte 3y ago
It is a kind of "cope" mechanism I think. One is essentially blaming the victims so that you won't get depressed. In the extreme case they only feel sorry for animals or small children, since they are always innocent.

dantiberian 3y ago

From the report (page 56): Exposure to RCS from engineered stone causes silicosis typified by a faster onset and more rapid progression than that caused by RCS [Respirable crystalline silica] from other sources, including natural stone. When engineered stone is processed, the dust generated contains higher levels of RCS, and that RCS has different physical and chemical properties that likely contribute to the more rapid and severe disease. There is also evidence to suggest that other components of engineered stone may contribute to the toxic effects of engineered stone dust, either alone or by exacerbating the effects of RCS. ... The increased risks posed by RCS from engineered stone, increased rate of silicosis diagnosis amongst engineered stone workers, and the faster and more severe disease progression amongst this group, combined with a multi-faceted failure of this industry to comply with the model WHS laws means that continued work with engineered stone poses an unacceptable risk to workers. The use of all engineered stone should be prohibited. https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-10/decision_ris_-_prohibition_on_the_use_of_engineered_stone_-_27_october_2023.pdf https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/202...

deleted 3y ago

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accurrent 3y ago

I've worked previously as a firefighter, a lot of the stuff that we do can be considered high risk. PPE is incredibly important however there are several issues I have noticed while working with PPE. 1. PPE can get in the way of being efficient. From personal experience this is one of the most painful things. Engineers design equipment to meet requirements. The people setting these requirements are often bureaucrats who have no knowledge of what it feels like to be doing the manual labor. Some of them may never have even handled any heavy machinery in their life - the end result is you end up with unergonomic tools. Since, the workers are not the ones paying for the tools, the upper management will select things that hit their own KPIs. Some how you are expected to hit unrealistic throughputs with tools that dont work well with your PPE. End result is most people will neglect PPE and find ways around it. 2. PPE upkeep One has to keep equipment in good condition. Using boots with holes is not going to be a good idea. Corporate culture however is such that they make replacing PPE very painful, in part because PPE is ridiculously expensive in certain contexts. Good managers and supervisors will make sure their crew has safe equipment but often have to take the blame if they overspend. Lazy managers/supervisors will make it a nightmare if anything gets damaged. Unfortunately the number of lazy supervisors far outstrips good supervisors. This can result in things like black markets for PPEs. 3. Workplace culture It can be "manly" to do things in an unsafe manner. This takes a lot of work to solve but the best way to solve it is by trying to inculcate a culture where people don't cause suffering for others just because they suffered. There is no need to "pay forward" a malpractice. If someone abused you earlier for conforming to something, that doesn't give you the right to abuse your junior. The problem is people who do this kind of change often go unnoticed.

gwnywg 3y ago

I came to the same conclusion. Year ago I was cleaning my flat after renovation, there was lots of dust settled everywhere and my first thought was - how do I protect my lungs? There were many one-time-use face masks in hardware store, but those masks did not look like good enough- mainly because of lack of filter. So I bought slightly more expensive aparatus with proper filters. Yet, trademen who were doing the work did not care, they were not wearing anything to prevent dust from being inhaled. I felt so bad for them that I was vacuuming whole place each evening when they were gone (including walls), so at least they would start with no dust... Still, I was wondering how much of their future suffer will be because I was not asking them to protect themselves...

valdiorn 3y ago
They know the risks, if they choose to be idiots that's on them. Invest in some good PPE that doesn't get in the way. I have an air-fed mask I use when spraying lacquer, I do woodworking as a hobby. My small shop is set up with two different filtration systems to keep dust and VOC out of the air. I refuse to use isocyanate catalyzed compounds because of the health implications.

3minus1 3y ago

> I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. maybe it's because the "underlying problem" they are trying to address is people contracting and dying from silicosis