7 ms·

Phony Diagnoses not just at nursing homes, also in mental facilities. Was really surprised (better word-traumatized) that one flippant casual mention of not va

Phony Diagnoses not just at nursing homes, also in mental facilities. Was really surprised (better word-traumatized) that one flippant casual mention of not valuing my life in a private text message was enough to to get me detained by police in a facility for a night. "Doctor" threatened me with drugging just because I refused to answer some of their questions and instead insisted on a lawyer. Funny how freedoms can be taken away so dubiously even when not charged of a crime nor arrested in a system that exists outside the criminal system. I'm surprised and not surprised similar behavior happens in nursing homes.

thatguy0900 5y ago
Look at all the recent brittney spears stuff. An insane legal world out there noone knows anything about. I never would have guessed a situation like that would be possible and for so long.
quetzlbazaar 5y ago
Suicide is offensive to society and many individuals on a deep level, especially of people who do not have a "good reason" (such as a terminal illness). While it may have progressed beyond being a criminal act, it is still taboo enough for alternative and equally good avenues to exist for society to deal with it, in this case, police and physicians empowered by law with the "duty of care" concept. This is of course better than suicidal intentions being dealt with as criminal, but not as good (in my opinion) as it being dealt with as something that someone has a right to do and therefore cannot have force used against them, but perhaps should be dissuaded from, maybe similarly to abortion.
- calvinmorrison 5y ago
  Step 1) fabricate an SMS Step 2) call police Step 3) enjoy Wow so easy to take down your political enemies huh
  - vgel 5y ago
    This happened to a friend of mine. "Friend" of theirs who was angry they didn't have a romantic interest in him called the police claiming they were suicidal. Police came, handcuffed them, verbally abused them, and dragged them to a hospital against their will even though they were clearly fine. They were forced to stay there for ~a day and then had no means to get home, thankfully a friend was able to pick them up and drive them home from the hospital. No consequences for the guy, of course.
    - tornato7 5y ago
      Something similar happened to a friend of mine and you can find plenty of stories on the internet - the way suicidal people are treated by the police is actually cruel and I can't imagine it helps anyone who is really feeling suicidal. My buddy got arrested, restrained to a hospital bed against his will, was given a cocktail of drugs, and had to stay there multiple days while getting a 'wellness check' every fifteen minutes where a nurse shakes you awake. To top it all off they sent him home with a $60,000 medical bill. Not a great way to treat someone who's going through a hard time. I definitely learned never to call the police unless someone is literally getting ready to jump off a building.
      - AQuantized 5y ago
        Wow, that sounds like a good way to make someone suicidal even if they weren't to begin with.
      - Clubber 5y ago
        >the way suicidal people are treated by the police is actually cruel The way people are treated by the police is actually cruel. If you dug into it you would be ill.
      - chillwaves 5y ago
        > I definitely learned never to call the police unless someone is literally getting ready to jump off a building. This is an important lesson. Do not call the police unless you literally just want them to remove a nuisance and you don't care what happens to the person or how they are dealt with. Even then, police are just a wild card with the potential for life altering outcomes. My brother called the police once because his then girlfriend was acting really crazy/violent after a night out drinking (not the first time) and they almost arrested HIM.
- comrh 5y ago
  It's one of the two things every therapist will tell you that can force them to break the confidentiality. That it can take away your freedom, get you institutionalized, remove your ability to make your own medical decisions. It's important to take ideations seriously but as someone who struggled with that at points in my life I never felt completely safe about discuss it.
  - quetzlbazaar 5y ago
    It makes sense when you consider that the therapist is there to help you but only in a way that does not challenge society. You are right to not feel completely safe to discuss it, unfortunately. I'm not sure why this taboo has evolved to be so strong, though I would guess it runs very deep psychologically in peoples' fear of death and also has something to do with the potential societal implications to any culture which does not treat it as something to be dealt with with extreme prejudice.
    - andai 5y ago
      >societal implications I'd expect the quality of a party you're allowed to leave to be higher than one you're not.
      - quetzlbazaar 5y ago
        I would agree, hence the offensiveness of suicide to society in the large.
        the_rectifier 5y ago
        american society.
        squabble 5y ago
        Are you American?
        5y ago
- eurasiantiger 5y ago
  Suicide is only offensive to the fools who have been brainwashed to believe in a concrete afterlife.
matheusmoreira 5y ago
Yeah, I've read some incredible stories. Locking the doors behind the patient. Using some tiny remark as cause for involuntary institutionalization. It made me think american psychiatry was like american prisons where they get paid per person and are therefore incentivized to stuff as many people in the building as possible.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  All the while I can drive 15 min and find thousands of obviously mentally ill people in need of involuntary mental health treatment (the type perhaps not even available at this point in the US) wandering around and the police cannot do anything about it because their only avenue for detaining them is to wait until they catch them committing a crime. And even then they are shortly released onto their own recognizance if it is anything short of attempted murder.
  - jac241 5y ago
    The reason they aren't in a psychiatric hospital is because the only reasons we can involuntarily commit someone is if they are a risk to themselves or others, and like stated elsewhere in the thread is generally reassessed by a judicial process every 72 hours depending on the state. What I'm reading in your post is that you're in favor of involuntarily holding more people which I find interesting because many others in the thread are complaining that it's too easy to have someone committed. There are a lot of armchair psychiatrists in this thread who have never seen someone in psychosis or truly manic suggesting that it's a joke to have someone committed. I spent 3 weeks rotating in a psych emergency department and only saw 2 patients out of probably more than one hundred total patients admitted for being suicidal. Neither were involuntary. From what I've seen unless you have just attempted or have a concrete plan to attempt suicide again you're not going to be admitted. There are just too many people who are in not-on-the-same-planet level of psychosis or mania that are taking up beds to admit someone who is not really about to attempt suicide. Not trying to pick on your post or anything just thought it is a good example to say that it's maybe not as easy as it may seem to decide who gets admitted/committed, and the dichotomy in this thread shows that point. Regarding potential overuse of sedation (benzos) or antipsychotics in nursing homes, it's easier for a nurse to push a doctor to prescribe meds to "snow" a patient than to spend time in the room and try to reorient a sundowning delirious dementia patient.
nohuck13 5y ago
"detained...for a night" "freedoms can be taken away so dubiously even when not charged of a crime nor arrested in a system that exists outside the criminal system" I'm sorry this happened to you. Not defending it, but I don't think it's fair to say your experience represents some runaway extra-judicial outcome. For better or worse, in the US, a judge's approval is required to detain someone in a psychiatric facility beyond an initial period (in my state it's 24 hours). This is more or less the same standard we apply to people arrested for crimes, no? I.e. you can be detained involuntarily for a bit, but they have to put you before the court or let you go.
- BingoAhoy 5y ago
  .
  - nohuck13 5y ago
    Are there any states where people can be involuntarily committed indefinitely without judicial involvement? [edit responding to your edit] you were responding to the tone of my original comment, which I softened while you were responding, so sorry for the original combativeness. For what it's worth, holy crap does what you described suck. i would have done exactly what you did. no amount of knowing that it's not "indefinite" would have made it any better. the circularity of being falsely accused of something, and then having your (justifiable) non-compliance used to justify threats of further force, is blood boilingly unfair. sorry my apology sounded insincere. i sincerely feel that your experience should not be minimized.
    - easton 5y ago
      Florida. I knew people in high school that were in there for weeks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_Act
      - nohuck13 5y ago
        "Examinations may last up to 72 hours after a person is deemed medically stable" "There are many possible outcomes following examination of the patient. These include (1) the release of the individual to the community (or other community placement), (2) a petition for involuntary inpatient placement ... (3) involuntary outpatient placement (what some call outpatient commitment or assisted treatment orders), or (4) voluntary treatment (if the person is competent to consent to voluntary treatment and consents to voluntary treatment)." [Numbers mine] So assuming #2 and #3 are the "bad" outcomes: both seem to require a judge's order within 72 hours? Unless the definition of "stable" has a wiggle room I am not appreciating? Or some other practical nuance?
AussieWog93 5y ago
>Phony Diagnoses not just at nursing homes, also in mental facilities. Schools too. My mum spent two decades as a primary schol teacher, and it's an open secret in that industry that Ritalin and other behavioural drugs are, at least in some cases, administered for the benefit of the teacher and other students in the class - not necessarily for the child receiving it.
- kbenson 5y ago
  > it's an open secret in that industry that Ritalin and other behavioural drugs are administered for the benefit of the teacher and other students in the class - not necessarily for the child receiving it. Not necessarily does not mean never, so be careful of a claim like that, and maybe back it up. I have a daughter, now an adult, which Ritalin and/or Adderall provided real benefit. The only thing in question was how to find the right one and right dosage to minimize the side effects )lack of appetite and sometimes stomach aches). The difference was very clear, and was exhibited multiple times. For example when we let her go off it at her request during the middle of her sophomore year in high school, and she went from getting B's and C's to getting flunking a quarter of four of six classes, and then going back to not flunking anything and getting mostly B's by the end of the year when she went back on the medication. This was not an isolated incident, it happened 2-3 times over junior high and high school. That's the thing about medication. Different people respond to it in different ways. That's why studies look for statistical significance, not "guaranteed to do what it says". Edit: The language of the original comment has since been softened to no longer imply that's the only or main reason, which I appreciate.
  - hagibborim 5y ago
    The phrasing of the poster you're responding to does not discount the experience you're describing. I don't see how they could be more careful.
    - kbenson 5y ago
      > does not discount the experience you're describing It's not about saying it's not possible, it's about setting expectations, and scaring people away from a medication which may be helpful. >> Ritalin and other behavioural drugs are administered for the benefit of the teacher and other students in the class - not necessarily for the child receiving it. That clearly states the reason it's administered is not primarily for the child's benefit. While it doesn't discount that the child may benefit, it clearly sets the expectation that it's not the child's well being that's being considered. The natural extension of accepting that is to wonder if there's any actual benefit to the child or if that part is just in service to "the secret". Implying that the reason a specific medicine is prescribed is not actually for the benefit of the patient might have real repercussions if it scares away someone that it could have haloed. At a minimum, I think a statement like that should be backed up in some manner.
novok 5y ago
A lot of the behavior is driven by liability avoidance by doctors and mental health professionals. They do not want to be put in a long drawn out lawsuit, convicted or not by someone's family members because they didn't report and deal with someone who wanted to commit suicide. Remove that possibility and I think many doctors will stop doing that too. I know a few and they really, really, really hate how the system & law forces them into this corner, to the point where they actively try to avoid suicidal patients, because they don't want to report them. There is a similar dynamic with being a mandated reporter for children when giving them therapy.
- quantumBerry 5y ago
  Mandatory reporting seems to be a tool invented to keep abused children away from health and mental care workers, since parents who are worried about mandatory reporting will simply choose to not have their child treated. Even for those who dearly love and care for their children, it's not a great feeling knowing that the slightest misinterpretation _requires_ that health / mental professional to refer you for prosecution. Instead of helpers, doctors and therapists have to be viewed as threats.
throwawaylinux 5y ago
Careful, criticism of the medical industry and concern for your rights is verboten. You will take the drugs the experts tell you to take, and you will like it.
- eurasiantiger 5y ago
  Later, mandatory church attendance will be instated.
m0llusk 5y ago
When I traveled to the east coast near DC to help take care of my mother in her final years I talked with some people about my work with startups and the tech side projects I was developing and not only did they all think I was completely crazy but I got referred to a psychiatrist who was insistent that I should get started on antipsychotic medications right away.
- SteveNuts 5y ago
  Why would talking about tech make people think you're crazy?
  - patch_cable 5y ago
    I wonder what the side projects were…
    - zhoujianfu 5y ago
      Maybe brain wallets?!
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - d13 5y ago
    I think this is meant to be a comment on SV culture.
  - m0llusk 5y ago
    A good job is one where you do the same thing in the same place with the same people year after year. Such a job should offer good benefits and be exceptionally stable. In contrast working as a contractor, intentionally contributing to more than one job per year, taking a big salary hit to be on a cool project with cool people are all things that are completely and utterly insane. No reasonable people would do such a thing. And one of my side project was a mini MPORG with no combat, just some puzzles. Obviously no one can make good money providing something like that, and turning such a thing into a good job opportunity is not possible. Take your meds and get a steady job at a big company, or better yet the Federal Government. It is kind of surprising to me that this is considered so odd. Have any long time tech workers here tried to explain how their work is organized to anyone who has worked for the federal government for a decade or two? Maybe I was just lucky.
aemreunal 5y ago
Reminds me of Élan School [1] and how kids (under 18) can be abducted with the permission of their parents and put in confinement for dubious behavioral benefits, against their wishes – sometimes with the help of the judicial system. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89lan_School https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89lan_School
- s5300 5y ago
  Kids can be forced into electric shock therapy because of their parents.
- MerelyMortal 5y ago
  There is a very good/gripping series of illustrations about the school drawn by one of its victims: https://elan.school/ https://elan.school/
jac241 5y ago
This is literal survivorship bias. I'm sure there are many people who are no longer alive because people did not take their texts seriously. I can easily imagine someone posting something just like this from the other side of the coin.
- phreack 5y ago
  I can't possibly imagine how trauma, torture and debt can at all help with suicidal ideation. It sounds barbaric.
  - jac241 5y ago
    I don't think torture is a remotely accurate description of psychiatric care. How do you think they treat people with suicidal ideation? Tie them down with chains, stuff a sock in their mouth, beat them with whips, and inject them with deliriants? Seriously dude... You get a room that looks like a normal hospital room. You have the choice to take antidepressants or not. You do group and individual therapy for a couple days. If you're actually being held on a 72 hour hold, your time will be up and you will be free to go. Otherwise you may realize that being in the hospital is beneficial and you choose to stay. I respond to these comments because I don't want people to hesitate to call for help if someone they know reaches out in need because of what a bunch of software engineers on HN who've never seen the inside of a hospital have to say about psychiatric care.
    - phreack 5y ago
      I'm mostly referring to what comments like this[1] one sound like. They may be lies or they may be isolated cases in specific states or counties, but it's not at all the first time I've read such accounts. Grain of salt since it's the internet of course. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28497547 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28497547
- guerrilla 5y ago
  That doesn't justify violating somone and stripping them of their rights. There are plnety of possible nterventions short of that
cannaceo 5y ago
LPS holds are 72hr. It's the only situation where you can be detained against your will. Unfortunately, many seriously ill people can not get the psychiatric help they need because of how difficult it is to forcibly medicate(in CA, at least) or keep a person beyond 72hr if they improve slightly. IMHO, the system errors too much on the side of caution when it comes to psychiatric holds and ignores history of repeated hospitalizations.
pottertheotter 5y ago
I picked up my wife yesterday after a 72 hour hold at an in-patient center. I’m so glad that she legally had to be there. She tried to commit suicide Sunday night and spent Monday and Tuesday in the ER. It’s been a horrible week for all of us. The behavioral health place she was at was not perfect, but she would not be where she is right now if it weren’t for her having to be there. For years I have told myself that if I somehow become wealthy, I will spend my time and money improving mental health resources in my area. After hearing her stories about the place she was at (one of a couple hundred owned by a public company), I wish I had the resources to start a place that did everything right. I’m sorry you had a bad experience. It’s really messed up.
- ketzo 5y ago
  That sounds like an extremely rough time. I hope you and your wife are alright.
- andrewnicolalde 5y ago
  I wish the absolutely best for both you and your wife.
- arkitaip 5y ago
  I can't even begin to imagine how difficult this must be for the both of you. It must be terrifying having a loved one trying to commit suicide. I hope your wife and you find peace and happiness.
- fires10 5y ago
  There are times when getting someone on a 72 hour hold has been too difficult. I have been in situations where getting a 72 hour hold was necessary but was not possible. I'm glad it worked out for you. I can see both sides of it. I wish I knew a good solution.
  - daddylongstroke 5y ago
    I mean, speaking as someone who was clinically depressed for 25+ years, and about 20 of those years highly violent/homicidal/suicidal, in my opinion, a good solution would be to allow those of us with daily emotional pain and no regard for human life, access to cheap and mediated suicide assistance. Suicide is a human right.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
fit2rule 5y ago
Psychiatric institutions are the Wests' gulags.

thatguy0900 5y ago

Look at all the recent brittney spears stuff. An insane legal world out there noone knows anything about. I never would have guessed a situation like that would be possible and for so long.

quetzlbazaar 5y ago

Suicide is offensive to society and many individuals on a deep level, especially of people who do not have a "good reason" (such as a terminal illness). While it may have progressed beyond being a criminal act, it is still taboo enough for alternative and equally good avenues to exist for society to deal with it, in this case, police and physicians empowered by law with the "duty of care" concept. This is of course better than suicidal intentions being dealt with as criminal, but not as good (in my opinion) as it being dealt with as something that someone has a right to do and therefore cannot have force used against them, but perhaps should be dissuaded from, maybe similarly to abortion.

calvinmorrison 5y ago
Step 1) fabricate an SMS Step 2) call police Step 3) enjoy Wow so easy to take down your political enemies huh
- vgel 5y ago
  This happened to a friend of mine. "Friend" of theirs who was angry they didn't have a romantic interest in him called the police claiming they were suicidal. Police came, handcuffed them, verbally abused them, and dragged them to a hospital against their will even though they were clearly fine. They were forced to stay there for ~a day and then had no means to get home, thankfully a friend was able to pick them up and drive them home from the hospital. No consequences for the guy, of course.
  - tornato7 5y ago
    Something similar happened to a friend of mine and you can find plenty of stories on the internet - the way suicidal people are treated by the police is actually cruel and I can't imagine it helps anyone who is really feeling suicidal. My buddy got arrested, restrained to a hospital bed against his will, was given a cocktail of drugs, and had to stay there multiple days while getting a 'wellness check' every fifteen minutes where a nurse shakes you awake. To top it all off they sent him home with a $60,000 medical bill. Not a great way to treat someone who's going through a hard time. I definitely learned never to call the police unless someone is literally getting ready to jump off a building.
    - AQuantized 5y ago
      Wow, that sounds like a good way to make someone suicidal even if they weren't to begin with.
    - Clubber 5y ago
      >the way suicidal people are treated by the police is actually cruel The way people are treated by the police is actually cruel. If you dug into it you would be ill.
    - chillwaves 5y ago
      > I definitely learned never to call the police unless someone is literally getting ready to jump off a building. This is an important lesson. Do not call the police unless you literally just want them to remove a nuisance and you don't care what happens to the person or how they are dealt with. Even then, police are just a wild card with the potential for life altering outcomes. My brother called the police once because his then girlfriend was acting really crazy/violent after a night out drinking (not the first time) and they almost arrested HIM.
comrh 5y ago
It's one of the two things every therapist will tell you that can force them to break the confidentiality. That it can take away your freedom, get you institutionalized, remove your ability to make your own medical decisions. It's important to take ideations seriously but as someone who struggled with that at points in my life I never felt completely safe about discuss it.
- quetzlbazaar 5y ago
  It makes sense when you consider that the therapist is there to help you but only in a way that does not challenge society. You are right to not feel completely safe to discuss it, unfortunately. I'm not sure why this taboo has evolved to be so strong, though I would guess it runs very deep psychologically in peoples' fear of death and also has something to do with the potential societal implications to any culture which does not treat it as something to be dealt with with extreme prejudice.
  - andai 5y ago
    >societal implications I'd expect the quality of a party you're allowed to leave to be higher than one you're not.
    - quetzlbazaar 5y ago
      I would agree, hence the offensiveness of suicide to society in the large.
      - the_rectifier 5y ago
        american society.
        squabble 5y ago
        Are you American?
        5y ago
eurasiantiger 5y ago
Suicide is only offensive to the fools who have been brainwashed to believe in a concrete afterlife.

matheusmoreira 5y ago

Yeah, I've read some incredible stories. Locking the doors behind the patient. Using some tiny remark as cause for involuntary institutionalization. It made me think american psychiatry was like american prisons where they get paid per person and are therefore incentivized to stuff as many people in the building as possible.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
lotsofpulp 5y ago
All the while I can drive 15 min and find thousands of obviously mentally ill people in need of involuntary mental health treatment (the type perhaps not even available at this point in the US) wandering around and the police cannot do anything about it because their only avenue for detaining them is to wait until they catch them committing a crime. And even then they are shortly released onto their own recognizance if it is anything short of attempted murder.
- jac241 5y ago
  The reason they aren't in a psychiatric hospital is because the only reasons we can involuntarily commit someone is if they are a risk to themselves or others, and like stated elsewhere in the thread is generally reassessed by a judicial process every 72 hours depending on the state. What I'm reading in your post is that you're in favor of involuntarily holding more people which I find interesting because many others in the thread are complaining that it's too easy to have someone committed. There are a lot of armchair psychiatrists in this thread who have never seen someone in psychosis or truly manic suggesting that it's a joke to have someone committed. I spent 3 weeks rotating in a psych emergency department and only saw 2 patients out of probably more than one hundred total patients admitted for being suicidal. Neither were involuntary. From what I've seen unless you have just attempted or have a concrete plan to attempt suicide again you're not going to be admitted. There are just too many people who are in not-on-the-same-planet level of psychosis or mania that are taking up beds to admit someone who is not really about to attempt suicide. Not trying to pick on your post or anything just thought it is a good example to say that it's maybe not as easy as it may seem to decide who gets admitted/committed, and the dichotomy in this thread shows that point. Regarding potential overuse of sedation (benzos) or antipsychotics in nursing homes, it's easier for a nurse to push a doctor to prescribe meds to "snow" a patient than to spend time in the room and try to reorient a sundowning delirious dementia patient.

nohuck13 5y ago

"detained...for a night" "freedoms can be taken away so dubiously even when not charged of a crime nor arrested in a system that exists outside the criminal system" I'm sorry this happened to you. Not defending it, but I don't think it's fair to say your experience represents some runaway extra-judicial outcome. For better or worse, in the US, a judge's approval is required to detain someone in a psychiatric facility beyond an initial period (in my state it's 24 hours). This is more or less the same standard we apply to people arrested for crimes, no? I.e. you can be detained involuntarily for a bit, but they have to put you before the court or let you go.

BingoAhoy 5y ago
.
- nohuck13 5y ago
  Are there any states where people can be involuntarily committed indefinitely without judicial involvement? [edit responding to your edit] you were responding to the tone of my original comment, which I softened while you were responding, so sorry for the original combativeness. For what it's worth, holy crap does what you described suck. i would have done exactly what you did. no amount of knowing that it's not "indefinite" would have made it any better. the circularity of being falsely accused of something, and then having your (justifiable) non-compliance used to justify threats of further force, is blood boilingly unfair. sorry my apology sounded insincere. i sincerely feel that your experience should not be minimized.
  - easton 5y ago
    Florida. I knew people in high school that were in there for weeks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_Act
    - nohuck13 5y ago
      "Examinations may last up to 72 hours after a person is deemed medically stable" "There are many possible outcomes following examination of the patient. These include (1) the release of the individual to the community (or other community placement), (2) a petition for involuntary inpatient placement ... (3) involuntary outpatient placement (what some call outpatient commitment or assisted treatment orders), or (4) voluntary treatment (if the person is competent to consent to voluntary treatment and consents to voluntary treatment)." [Numbers mine] So assuming #2 and #3 are the "bad" outcomes: both seem to require a judge's order within 72 hours? Unless the definition of "stable" has a wiggle room I am not appreciating? Or some other practical nuance?

AussieWog93 5y ago

>Phony Diagnoses not just at nursing homes, also in mental facilities. Schools too. My mum spent two decades as a primary schol teacher, and it's an open secret in that industry that Ritalin and other behavioural drugs are, at least in some cases, administered for the benefit of the teacher and other students in the class - not necessarily for the child receiving it.

kbenson 5y ago
> it's an open secret in that industry that Ritalin and other behavioural drugs are administered for the benefit of the teacher and other students in the class - not necessarily for the child receiving it. Not necessarily does not mean never, so be careful of a claim like that, and maybe back it up. I have a daughter, now an adult, which Ritalin and/or Adderall provided real benefit. The only thing in question was how to find the right one and right dosage to minimize the side effects )lack of appetite and sometimes stomach aches). The difference was very clear, and was exhibited multiple times. For example when we let her go off it at her request during the middle of her sophomore year in high school, and she went from getting B's and C's to getting flunking a quarter of four of six classes, and then going back to not flunking anything and getting mostly B's by the end of the year when she went back on the medication. This was not an isolated incident, it happened 2-3 times over junior high and high school. That's the thing about medication. Different people respond to it in different ways. That's why studies look for statistical significance, not "guaranteed to do what it says". Edit: The language of the original comment has since been softened to no longer imply that's the only or main reason, which I appreciate.
- hagibborim 5y ago
  The phrasing of the poster you're responding to does not discount the experience you're describing. I don't see how they could be more careful.
  - kbenson 5y ago
    > does not discount the experience you're describing It's not about saying it's not possible, it's about setting expectations, and scaring people away from a medication which may be helpful. >> Ritalin and other behavioural drugs are administered for the benefit of the teacher and other students in the class - not necessarily for the child receiving it. That clearly states the reason it's administered is not primarily for the child's benefit. While it doesn't discount that the child may benefit, it clearly sets the expectation that it's not the child's well being that's being considered. The natural extension of accepting that is to wonder if there's any actual benefit to the child or if that part is just in service to "the secret". Implying that the reason a specific medicine is prescribed is not actually for the benefit of the patient might have real repercussions if it scares away someone that it could have haloed. At a minimum, I think a statement like that should be backed up in some manner.

novok 5y ago

A lot of the behavior is driven by liability avoidance by doctors and mental health professionals. They do not want to be put in a long drawn out lawsuit, convicted or not by someone's family members because they didn't report and deal with someone who wanted to commit suicide. Remove that possibility and I think many doctors will stop doing that too. I know a few and they really, really, really hate how the system & law forces them into this corner, to the point where they actively try to avoid suicidal patients, because they don't want to report them. There is a similar dynamic with being a mandated reporter for children when giving them therapy.

quantumBerry 5y ago
Mandatory reporting seems to be a tool invented to keep abused children away from health and mental care workers, since parents who are worried about mandatory reporting will simply choose to not have their child treated. Even for those who dearly love and care for their children, it's not a great feeling knowing that the slightest misinterpretation _requires_ that health / mental professional to refer you for prosecution. Instead of helpers, doctors and therapists have to be viewed as threats.

throwawaylinux 5y ago

Careful, criticism of the medical industry and concern for your rights is verboten. You will take the drugs the experts tell you to take, and you will like it.

eurasiantiger 5y ago
Later, mandatory church attendance will be instated.

m0llusk 5y ago

When I traveled to the east coast near DC to help take care of my mother in her final years I talked with some people about my work with startups and the tech side projects I was developing and not only did they all think I was completely crazy but I got referred to a psychiatrist who was insistent that I should get started on antipsychotic medications right away.

SteveNuts 5y ago
Why would talking about tech make people think you're crazy?
- patch_cable 5y ago
  I wonder what the side projects were…
  - zhoujianfu 5y ago
    Maybe brain wallets?!
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- d13 5y ago
  I think this is meant to be a comment on SV culture.
- m0llusk 5y ago
  A good job is one where you do the same thing in the same place with the same people year after year. Such a job should offer good benefits and be exceptionally stable. In contrast working as a contractor, intentionally contributing to more than one job per year, taking a big salary hit to be on a cool project with cool people are all things that are completely and utterly insane. No reasonable people would do such a thing. And one of my side project was a mini MPORG with no combat, just some puzzles. Obviously no one can make good money providing something like that, and turning such a thing into a good job opportunity is not possible. Take your meds and get a steady job at a big company, or better yet the Federal Government. It is kind of surprising to me that this is considered so odd. Have any long time tech workers here tried to explain how their work is organized to anyone who has worked for the federal government for a decade or two? Maybe I was just lucky.

aemreunal 5y ago

Reminds me of Élan School [1] and how kids (under 18) can be abducted with the permission of their parents and put in confinement for dubious behavioral benefits, against their wishes – sometimes with the help of the judicial system. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89lan_School https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89lan_School

s5300 5y ago
Kids can be forced into electric shock therapy because of their parents.
MerelyMortal 5y ago
There is a very good/gripping series of illustrations about the school drawn by one of its victims: https://elan.school/ https://elan.school/

jac241 5y ago

This is literal survivorship bias. I'm sure there are many people who are no longer alive because people did not take their texts seriously. I can easily imagine someone posting something just like this from the other side of the coin.

phreack 5y ago
I can't possibly imagine how trauma, torture and debt can at all help with suicidal ideation. It sounds barbaric.
- jac241 5y ago
  I don't think torture is a remotely accurate description of psychiatric care. How do you think they treat people with suicidal ideation? Tie them down with chains, stuff a sock in their mouth, beat them with whips, and inject them with deliriants? Seriously dude... You get a room that looks like a normal hospital room. You have the choice to take antidepressants or not. You do group and individual therapy for a couple days. If you're actually being held on a 72 hour hold, your time will be up and you will be free to go. Otherwise you may realize that being in the hospital is beneficial and you choose to stay. I respond to these comments because I don't want people to hesitate to call for help if someone they know reaches out in need because of what a bunch of software engineers on HN who've never seen the inside of a hospital have to say about psychiatric care.
  - phreack 5y ago
    I'm mostly referring to what comments like this[1] one sound like. They may be lies or they may be isolated cases in specific states or counties, but it's not at all the first time I've read such accounts. Grain of salt since it's the internet of course. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28497547 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28497547
guerrilla 5y ago
That doesn't justify violating somone and stripping them of their rights. There are plnety of possible nterventions short of that

cannaceo 5y ago

LPS holds are 72hr. It's the only situation where you can be detained against your will. Unfortunately, many seriously ill people can not get the psychiatric help they need because of how difficult it is to forcibly medicate(in CA, at least) or keep a person beyond 72hr if they improve slightly. IMHO, the system errors too much on the side of caution when it comes to psychiatric holds and ignores history of repeated hospitalizations.

pottertheotter 5y ago

I picked up my wife yesterday after a 72 hour hold at an in-patient center. I’m so glad that she legally had to be there. She tried to commit suicide Sunday night and spent Monday and Tuesday in the ER. It’s been a horrible week for all of us. The behavioral health place she was at was not perfect, but she would not be where she is right now if it weren’t for her having to be there. For years I have told myself that if I somehow become wealthy, I will spend my time and money improving mental health resources in my area. After hearing her stories about the place she was at (one of a couple hundred owned by a public company), I wish I had the resources to start a place that did everything right. I’m sorry you had a bad experience. It’s really messed up.

ketzo 5y ago
That sounds like an extremely rough time. I hope you and your wife are alright.
andrewnicolalde 5y ago
I wish the absolutely best for both you and your wife.
arkitaip 5y ago
I can't even begin to imagine how difficult this must be for the both of you. It must be terrifying having a loved one trying to commit suicide. I hope your wife and you find peace and happiness.
fires10 5y ago
There are times when getting someone on a 72 hour hold has been too difficult. I have been in situations where getting a 72 hour hold was necessary but was not possible. I'm glad it worked out for you. I can see both sides of it. I wish I knew a good solution.
- daddylongstroke 5y ago
  I mean, speaking as someone who was clinically depressed for 25+ years, and about 20 of those years highly violent/homicidal/suicidal, in my opinion, a good solution would be to allow those of us with daily emotional pain and no regard for human life, access to cheap and mediated suicide assistance. Suicide is a human right.

deleted 5y ago

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fit2rule 5y ago

Psychiatric institutions are the Wests' gulags.