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Falling Out of Love with Apple, Part 3: Content and Censorship

321 points by zherbert 6y ago

jolux 6y ago
Saying that Apple banned Epic for "fighting back" is definitely twisting the truth a bit. Epic released a behind-the-scenes software update in direct contravention of the App Store rules, which they knew was going to get them banned.
- smnrchrds 6y ago
  I would consider Epic's action the corporate equivalent of civil disobedience, which is a form of protest. Fighting back seems an apt description for such a protest.
  - ddingus 6y ago
    I agree. While it is all still playing out, it does appear Epic made a mark on things sufficient to change the discussion.
  - chongli 6y ago
    It’s like civil disobedience but it’s backed by profit motive rather than human rights. That makes it much less of a clear cut moral victory. During these discussions a lot of people on HN have come forward and expressed their support for Apple’s walled garden. They like that Apple keeps malware out. Should Epic win and the iPhone be fixed wide open, that could change the situation dramatically. Of course, I think Epic would be happy if they won a special exemption for their own marketplace but with the status quo remaining for everyone else.
    - smnrchrds 6y ago
      Civil disobedience is not by definition limited to specific causes such as human rights. Many actions during union strikes (e.g. not respecting a back-to-work legislation or picketing on company property) would fit the definition too, even if the only reason for the strike is disagreement over remuneration, i.e. profit motive. In fact, the Wikipedia article for civil disobedience has a picture of a union member on strike about to be arrested.
  - donkeyd 6y ago
    The term being correct doesn't take away that they weren't banned for fighting back. They were banned for breaking rules that were clear beforehand.
    - webmobdev 6y ago
      Rules that were unfair. I protest as a consumer as an unnecessary Apple tax to install paid software is an unfair burden that should be illegal.
      - donkeyd 6y ago
        Do you feel the same way about anything sold on Amazon? Or in supermarkets? Or is that in some way different?
        jsjohnst 6y ago
        Just to emphasize your point, 30% take is relatively small in the retail world. A store like Amazon or Walmart or Target or Best Buy generally wants a cut of 40-50%, if not more. And that doesn’t include the cut many distributors want to take for being the middle person. (Source: I’ve been on the executive team at startups with products sold in retail stores)
        modo_mario 6y ago
        Then I'm sure you'd agree monopsonies due to increasing centralisation and clout in the past few decades aren't all that nice for the consumer and smaller players like startups.
        donkeyd 6y ago
        Yup. And that excludes the fee many brands pay supermarkets to be in the eye level spot on the shelves. New entrants have to spend money just to be visible in the racks, regardless of whether their product is being sold.
        webmobdev 6y ago
- mehrdadn 6y ago
  My layman understanding was Epic had to do this to be able to legally challenge Apple in court (to demonstrate damages or whatever). That's not quite the same as (covertly) breaching your contract hoping you get away without getting caught, which is the impression you're giving. Assuming that's accurate, then I'm not sure what else one would expect them to do—not do something that gets them banned, then have their case thrown out immediately because they can't (say) demonstrate damages? Did they have any other realistic options besides just shutting up and putting up with the situation (which they have been doing this whole time)?
  - threeseed 6y ago
    If you're going to make a claim about a pending case and you're not a lawyer then you really need to provide a source. Because based on what the judge has said to date [1] your understanding does not seem accurate. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/29/21493096/epic-apple-antitrust-lawsuit-fortnite-app-store-court-hearing https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/29/21493096/epic-apple-antit...
    - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
      You're arguing against a layman's explanation by linking to a layman's explanation. The first argument is about standing. The second argument is about, apparently, an injunction to remain available during the course of the litigation. They're two separate issues.
      - threeseed 6y ago
        No I am linking to an article with quotes from the judge presiding over the case and a factual summary. The author is not giving their understanding of the legalities and merits of the case. OP's statement, "Epic had to do this to be able to legally challenge Apple in court" is worthless if they are not a lawyer and don't have some reputable source.
        AnthonyMouse 6y ago
webwielder2 6y ago
Framing your technology choices as a romance might not be the healthiest lens to make decisions through in the first place.
- fnord77 6y ago
  Sir, this is hackernews.
- bluescrn 6y ago
  The ‘sexiness’ of the hardware can seriously distort people’s opinions of Apple. An attractive enough person or product can get away with things that others couldn’t...
fnordprefect 6y ago
This all comes down to the statement near the end: "I believe Apple should simply refuse to cooperate with oppressive governments" Which is another way of saying "I believe Apple should either not operate in certain countries, or should try to operate in those countries in defiance of the laws of those countries." The beef is primarily with the government. Companies are stuck in the middle -- either operate in compliance with local laws (even if they believe those laws are wrong) or don't operate there at all (since the third option of operating in contravention of local laws doesn't usually last long, and has painful consequences). It would be interesting to know what the people who live in the countries think -- would they prefer not to have Apple products (or any other company's products) unavailable to them?
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  > Which is another way of saying "I believe Apple should either not operate in certain countries, or should try to operate in those countries in defiance of the laws of those countries." That's true, but it doesn't mean your beef is only with the governments, in exactly the same way that IBM's collusion during WWII can't be pinned solely on the German government. They can choose not to do business in that country, or to be as subversive as they can until they get kicked out. Not doing so is a choice. And that choice has implications for the company in other countries, when they become dependent on the countries they do business in, which then start making demands of the company's behavior globally.
  - threeseed 6y ago
    In this case it is largely an issue for governments. Because what Apple is doing is not immoral or unethical but completely standard business practice. Every company who runs a marketplace sets its terms and distorts competition to benefit them. In this case the author et al are arguing that Apple should be regulated differently and forced to operate a "level playing field" marketplace.
    - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
      > Because what Apple is doing is not immoral or unethical Prohibiting anti-censorship apps and content-based censorship of apps at the behest of undemocratic governments is not immoral or unethical? > Every company who runs a marketplace sets its terms and distorts competition to benefit them. Not every company monopolizes the distribution of a third party product to an identifiable discrete set of customers. > In this case the author et al are arguing that Apple should be regulated differently and forced to operate a "level playing field" marketplace. That would be a valid way to remove the moral issue by taking the ability to impose censorship out of the corporation's hands.
infinityplus1 6y ago
Money trumps everything. Everything done under the name of "we're are a privacy respecting company. We care about our users." is just a facade. Apple will sell you out in a heart beat if the law orders them to help them oppress their own citizens. I wonder how do these people sleep at night knowing what they are supporting under the mask of company. What will their children think? "I'm so proud that my dad/mom contributed to a company which silently supported oppressive and genocidal government's and helped make the world a worse place to live for the people". But let's go and buy iPhones and Macs and let them know we fully support their actions.
- Lutger 6y ago
  Sleeping at night is invariably achieved by dehumanizing the exploited. Chinese lives don't matter much, they are not Americans. Commies live on scraps. Such acts of othering make it easy to circumvent your conscience, this is the foundation of all war and crimes against humanity. Then, of course, there are also the real bastards, those without conscience, who couldn't care less. They also don't care about American lives, or even their friends or family for that matter. The dumb ones end up in jail and the smart bastards end up running a company. The rest of us just goes along with what everybody else does, we are too busy anyway to really reflect on our behavior. Need to buy more presents for the holidays!
throwawaysea 6y ago
Complaints about Apple’s censorship shouldn’t be limited to just foreign governments, which is a myopic and self-serving stance I often see in posts like this. It’s important to demand transparent free speech policies across the board for everyone. Like other big tech companies, Apple also censors content that doesn’t align with their progressive biases. They’ve banned numerous conservative apps from their App Store, and have threatened to ban others (example: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/06/tech-tyranny-apple-threatens-to-kick-social-media-company-parler-off-app-store-if-they-dont-ban-offensive-conservative-content/ https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/06/tech-tyranny-apple-...). They’ve also engaged in the cultural wars more directly by doing things like replacing the gun emoji with the squirt gun emoji (https://blog.emojipedia.org/apple-and-the-gun-emoji/ https://blog.emojipedia.org/apple-and-the-gun-emoji/). At this rate I will be unsurprised when Apple decides to start blocking certain websites across their devices for wrongspeak.
- Lutger 6y ago
  If by conservative you mean antisemitism, white supremacy, far out conspiracy, racism and hate speech: then yes they banned 'conservative' platforms. That's trying to make a cultural war of broadly accepted, democratic values. It got nothing to do with progressive politics. If you want to go full libertarian and demand Apple to give freedom to all these medieval hate platforms, you'll have to allow IS and the Al Qaidas of this world their jihadism videos too.
  - encom 6y ago
    Apple doesn't care about racism. Why else would they allow a song called "Fuck White People" on iTunes? https://music.apple.com/us/search?term=fuck%20white%20people https://music.apple.com/us/search?term=fuck%20white%20people
    - acdha 6y ago
      Did you listen to the song? I mean, I’m a white guy and it’s hard to read the lyrics and not say they’re coming from a place of legitimate grievance: https://genius.com/Ajj-fuck-white-people-lyrics https://genius.com/Ajj-fuck-white-people-lyrics This hits the key point: there’s no history of oppression adding weight to that. Someone can not like white people but that’s not linked to a history of violence, financial discrimination, etc. which is living memory for a LOT of non-white people. There’s a big difference between not liking/trusting and echoing real threats of organized violence.
raylad 6y ago
There's also this: U.S. congresswoman calls out Nike, Apple and Coca-Cola for lobbying against Uighur labour bills Jennifer Wexton says companies are publicly condemning forced labour and privately trying to water down bills https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-wednesday-edition-1.5825235/u-s-congresswoman-calls-out-nike-apple-and-coca-cola-for-lobbying-against-uighur-labour-bills-1.5825242 https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-wednesday... The companies principally who are lobbying ... to have changes to your bills, are Apple, Nike, Coca-Cola [and] the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. What are they trying to do? What changes do they want to make to your laws? Well, I don't know, because they haven't come to me to try to make changes to my piece of legislation, but the word is that they're trying to water down some of the enforcement provisions while publicly proclaiming that they are very much against and condemning forced labour. They're going behind the scenes and trying to change the law. If they're against it, if they say that this is not in their interest, then why would they want to change your bills? Because it's going to impact their supply chains and make it harder for them to profit off of this forced labour. Which means that they're using the forced labour? If they're not using it, it wouldn't be a problem. But, you know, it appears that they are using it. And if they are auditing their supply chains the way they're supposed to, this legislation wouldn't be an issue.
- ascagnel_ 6y ago
  Per the New York Times [0]: > According to a document viewed by The New York Times, Apple’s suggested edits to the bill included extending some deadlines for compliance, releasing certain information about supply chains to congressional committees rather than to the public, and requiring Chinese entities to be “designated by the United States government” as helping to surveil or detain Muslim minority groups in Xinjiang. It’s definitely suspicious that lobbying is being done in secret, but I can’t think of many cases where any lobbying is done in the open. [0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/29/business/economy/nike-coca-cola-xinjiang-forced-labor-bill.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/29/business/economy/nike-coc...
Hokusai 6y ago
Many good points in the article. And the starting point is brilliant: > Extract more revenue from your existing customers That is the only way forward for a company so used to growth. pressure on its current customers is only going up to buy new services and pay more for the old ones. Old strategies that new tools and a device that is with you 24/7 bring to new abusive levels.
john_minsk 6y ago
I just paid for 12 months worth of Skype subscription which I have used for just 2 calls back in January. I want ALL my subscriptions to go through Apple Pay and App store. Once I subscribed to New York times. The newspaper that was advertised to me for years in all Hollywood movies as a place where honesty and freedom are of highest priority. I had to spend an hour on a phone with their representatives to cancel it refusing to accept discount or a free subscription. I don't trust many other companies. Especially if all my interactions with them are virtual and they are not specialized in information technology. At least big tech is quite rich to afford to think about users. Each bank got their app and added some obvious features there: pay for utilities, for your phone etc. I want more progress here. I want to be able to see all my fees upfront in a clear format. I want to know my credit score. I want to be able to take this credit score to different organizations. etc. etc. Big hope that fin tech will blow it up, but unfortunately start ups didn't deliver. There are some successful ones, but I think finance is too regulated for them to have a shot at a serious scale. Apple and Google have a shot at that and they will create a road for smaller companies. The situation in Belarus is bad. And believe me I know. I was concerned as well about my device security. But to be honest at the end of the day it can't be Apple's problem. Belarussian government must be replaced by Belarussian people and Apple has nothing to do with that. And on top of that - what choice do I have. Android devices in Russia are preinstalled with Russian software while Apple's aren't. That's more important sign for me.
- qz2 6y ago
  Spot on. Managing subscriptions is a shit show generally. Doing it in one place is the right thing for the end user.
  - pmontra 6y ago
    I agree but I don't want that place to be tightly tied with the maker of my phone. I want to be able to change phone and not loose anything. Phones are commodities to me. Who makes them is as important as the brand of gas I put in my car. Browser, mail client, WhatsApp, camera, maps, banking apps are about all I need. The subscription management service should be a third party.
deleted 6y ago
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dependsontheq 6y ago
I never in my life bought that amount of software compared to the App Store, it’s convenient and mostly safe. Apple paid revenue in the store is two times higher than Googles. I think this is directly correlated with convenience and safety.
- sneak 6y ago
  It's also impossible to use (even for free apps) without IDing yourself, and your travel history (via IP geolocation), to Apple. The convenience comes at a cost.
  - dependsontheq 6y ago
    On the user side without question, but ion the developer side this enormous convenience for the user is worth much more than 30 percent. This is not Marketing this 50% of your sales funnel.
  - zepto 6y ago
    It’s true that you must identify yourself to download any app from the App Store. But you continue to repeat this outright lie about Apple receiving your travel history. There is no evidence for it, and this has been repeatedly pointed out to you. We know if you opt in to certain services they send an anonymized location. That’s all we know. The part about your travel history being sent is 100% made up by you.
    - lern_too_spel 6y ago
      As you have been repeatedly informed, that data is very easy to deanonymize. The last time you were told this, you then made the wacky claim that the data isn't sent to Apple at all. After being shown that it was, you just went on your way only to repeat the original lie again. I have not seen sneak be repeatedly pointed out that his statement is incorrect. That is a lie. He is completely correct, which is why he has never been corrected.
      - 6y ago
mdoms 6y ago
It's really not normal to be "in love" with a corporation to begin with....
- chadcmulligan 6y ago
  It's more a religion or cult according to neuroscience https://www.cnet.com/news/scientists-apple-makes-your-brain-go-all-religious/ https://www.cnet.com/news/scientists-apple-makes-your-brain-...
  - lqet 6y ago
    > Religion is a touchy subject. Oddly enough, as I have come to discover in these pages, so is Apple. This has also been my experience. I know people with whom I just avoid talking about Apple. Personally I just accept that Apple is their religion (some of them have Apple bumper stickers) and that religion is something deeply personal.
    - Veen 6y ago
      There are people who develop a religious fervour for brands, but I too often see that used as an excuse to dismiss legitimate arguments and preferences. Some people seem to develop an almost religious antipathy to brands and their customers. If Apple fanatics think Jobs or Cook are Jesus-like, the detractors seem to cast them as one rung up from Lucifer. It's assumed that if you prefer Apple products, it must be because you're brainwashed or ignorant. The possibility that there are rational reasons for preferring Apple and its ecosystem is rejected with no consideration.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - MaxBarraclough 6y ago
      It's curious that Apple have been more successful in inspiring this kind of zealotry than have the FSF. The power of good marketing I suppose. As I indicated in my other comment in this thread, I think such 'corporate fanboyism' can be considered a kind of immaturity.
tommilukkarinen 6y ago
Apple is already $2 trillion? If we think it as a bad company, is it too late, is it already too big to stop?
- donkeyd 6y ago
  Please don't stop them, I really don't want to be forced to buy an Android phone.
  - fsflover 6y ago
    You don't have to: https://puri.sm/products/librem-5 https://puri.sm/products/librem-5
    - matwood 6y ago
      So a huge step backwards (it doesn't even have NFC) for principles I guess.
      - fsflover 6y ago
        You cannot achieve perfection from the first step...
        zepto 6y ago
        Sure but there is no reason to force people not to buy what they want.
        fsflover 6y ago
        What are your talking about? I suggested an alternative, didn't force anyone to do anything.
        zepto 6y ago
        The thread is about stopping Apple and people being forced to buy Android.
intellix 6y ago
I think at this point Apple are just laughing at their customer base and testing how much they can get away with
- gigatexal 6y ago
  Nope they’re counting my dollar bills. They keep putting out amazing hardware: AirPods, iPhones, M1 Macs, etc., I’ll keep bending around their software (which I love 99% of the time) and their control of the experience which I think is what makes everything work so cohesively. We just bought a new MacBook Air with the M1 and my wife will use it until it dies so if it’s anything like our other Apple laptops could be 7 years or so.
  - intellix 6y ago
    My MBP 2013 lasted until 2019 which is amazing considering all of my prior laptops only lasted around 1 year. The same can't be said about the ones with any variation of the butterfly keyboard. My keyboard is pristine on the 2013 and after only 6 months of my 2019 they're already wearing away. I think it's to make it feel old and worn so I'll buy another.
jasoneckert 6y ago
While there are many reasons to fall out of love with Apple, including those discussed in this blog post, many people will simply not do so. Apple has always had an unusual and often unhealthy relationship with their customers, which has garnished Apple fans with labels such as "Cult of Mac members" - Ch.3 through 5 of this satirical book actually analyzes why that is: https://github.com/jasoneckert/CultOfMac https://github.com/jasoneckert/CultOfMac
fierarul 6y ago
I'd estimate that the more one rationalises this the less likely to actually switch away from Apple. It's actually quite simple: let things run their course. When the iPhone becomes too lousy, don't buy another iPhone. When the Apple Watch gets broken, don't buy another Apple Watch. When the laptop won't work, get something else. Step by step you realise all the Apple gear you have is just broken or old stuff.
- bitexploder 6y ago
  I am in that boat after some painful experiences with my 2018 Macbook Pro. Battery bloated and wrecked the keyboard and touchpad. That combined with the OS continued to go be "iOSified" I am out. Back to Linux for me. The phone... that is harder, Android phones just aren't as good as iPhones, and that is okay. The quality of both Macbooks and MacOS have been in decline for some time now and it is quite disappointing. Even simple things that used to just work like migration assistant required me to deal with errors in the process and it was not simple.
  - fierarul 6y ago
    Embrace the crappiness and call it stoicism. My Xiaomi phone is nowhere near the iPhone but it does provide 95% at 20% prices. The smart band is no Apple Watch but it was $20. The Lenovo is no head turner but it is 16 threads at 30% the price and the display is decent. Just as Apple evolved so did the rest of the world.
swiley 6y ago
Get off these closed platforms now while you still can. The more time you wait and the more of your life you integrate the harder it gets.
d1amonds 6y ago
As a passionate Apple hater their new chips didn't make me go 180 but I'm certainly looking over my shoulder. I'm not going to lock myself into any prison but the idea it could be cosy enough to sign up is entirely new to me.
ubermonkey 6y ago
Honestly, the arguments in this series of posts are not strong. I laughed out loud when I got to his complaints about Apple's headphone chips and the ease of pairing they allow -- and how it's somehow unfair that Apple, having developed this competitive advantage, is refusing to share it with other companies. What IS it about Apple that makes a certain class of tech geek feel like they have to dislike them in such a public and performative way?
- duhi88 6y ago
  They're not the underdog anymore, they're very profitable, they make lukewarm claims for headlines that fall apart under scrutiny (the kind of scrutiny that tech geeks are all about), and in recent history have acted pretty badly towards developers. All that said, after building a Linux machine for development and general client work, I consider Macs the best option out there. Everything from being able to copy 2FA codes from my phone and pasting on my computer, to colored tags and smart folders in Finder make my work easier. Also, Bluetooth is just a breeze under macOS.
  - f1refly 6y ago
    Hate to be that guy, but I copy paste clipboard contents across devices with kde connect. It's so reliable that I tried doing it when fixing my mum's computer without realizing it's not a magic built in thing that computers just do for some reason.
    - wayneftw 6y ago
      I can't find this for iOS, but I only searched briefly. I did see some Reddit thread about someone creating an iOS port but saying that it lacked all the functionality of the Android app.
      - nvrspyx 6y ago
        That's because it's impossible to implement that functionality in iOS with its locked-down APIs. It's the same reason that Microsoft's Your Phone app is limited on iOS compared to Android. On iOS, only Apple has the privilege to implement such features and they limit the interoperability with macOS.
vfclists 6y ago
Develop for the Pinephone or Librem
bumblebritches5 6y ago
Amen, I'm seriously tired of Apple's political and pc nonsense. Write software motherfuckers, that's your job, period.
zherbert 6y ago
Wow, honored our post is so upvoted and discussed! In case anyone wants to read the prior posts in our series, links below! Part 1: Software and Services https://hardware.substack.com/p/falling-out-of-love-with-apple-part1 https://hardware.substack.com/p/falling-out-of-love-with-app... Part 1.5: macOS Privacy Scandal and App Store Policy https://hardware.substack.com/p/falling-out-of-love-with-apple-part1-5 https://hardware.substack.com/p/falling-out-of-love-with-app... Part 2: Hardware and Accessories https://hardware.substack.com/p/falling-out-of-love-with-apple-part2 https://hardware.substack.com/p/falling-out-of-love-with-app...
specialist 6y ago
From the OC: "Censorship: Apple manages a global set of App Stores and cooperates with law enforcement in each jurisdiction in which it operates. ..." Okay. We agree. What's the fix? -- This censorship food fight is at least two problems. #1 Which rule of law applies to international companies? This is foreign policy. Just like trade agreements, treaties. USA flagged corporations like Google, Apple, Facebook need a federal solution. Just like shipping, banking, and so forth. These corporations cannot act unilaterally, nor should they be expected to. I have no idea what an international treaty covering speech and privacy would look like. Please share any and all ideas. #2 Need for fair and impartial court system, legitimate enforcement. FAANGs cannot be governments onto themselves. If my app gets rejected, there must be a separate fair and impartial court system to hear my appeal and adjudicate. If an impersonator takes my profile, I need legitimate enforcement to restore my property rights. If a FAANG closes my accounts, I must have the right to sue for damages. -- Again: Enough complaining about unfair, arbitrary behavior. We get it. Start proposing solutions.
- novok 6y ago
  You remove the master key nature that they have over their services and devices and let people manage their own master keys. I.e. let other app store happen, do not require apple to be the sole dispenser of keys, let side loading happen, etc. That removes a lot of profit from their %30 cut although, so they are directly incentivized to prevent that from happening
nbzso 6y ago
Silence. This is my comment. Waiting for legislative solution agains big tech in a financial depression is a pipe dream. So...I vote with my money. No more Apple tax for me.
musicale 6y ago
> I believe Apple should simply refuse to cooperate with oppressive governments – but this is an unlikely scenario, as they have extremely close ties and dependence to China, a current perpetrator of genocide against the Uyghurs. I could imagine Apple eventually moving its supply chain out of China, but it seems unlikely that they would be willing to be blocked from China's marketplace as Google services are. I wonder where Pixel phones and Chromebooks are manufactured, and where their components are sourced? I would also like to see Apple refuse to cooperate with authoritarian governments, but I don't see that happening sadly.

321 points by zherbert 6y ago

Saying that Apple banned Epic for "fighting back" is definitely twisting the truth a bit. Epic released a behind-the-scenes software update in direct contravention of the App Store rules, which they knew was going to get them banned.

smnrchrds 6y ago
I would consider Epic's action the corporate equivalent of civil disobedience, which is a form of protest. Fighting back seems an apt description for such a protest.
- ddingus 6y ago
  I agree. While it is all still playing out, it does appear Epic made a mark on things sufficient to change the discussion.
- chongli 6y ago
  It’s like civil disobedience but it’s backed by profit motive rather than human rights. That makes it much less of a clear cut moral victory. During these discussions a lot of people on HN have come forward and expressed their support for Apple’s walled garden. They like that Apple keeps malware out. Should Epic win and the iPhone be fixed wide open, that could change the situation dramatically. Of course, I think Epic would be happy if they won a special exemption for their own marketplace but with the status quo remaining for everyone else.
  - smnrchrds 6y ago
    Civil disobedience is not by definition limited to specific causes such as human rights. Many actions during union strikes (e.g. not respecting a back-to-work legislation or picketing on company property) would fit the definition too, even if the only reason for the strike is disagreement over remuneration, i.e. profit motive. In fact, the Wikipedia article for civil disobedience has a picture of a union member on strike about to be arrested.
- donkeyd 6y ago
  The term being correct doesn't take away that they weren't banned for fighting back. They were banned for breaking rules that were clear beforehand.
  - webmobdev 6y ago
    Rules that were unfair. I protest as a consumer as an unnecessary Apple tax to install paid software is an unfair burden that should be illegal.
    - donkeyd 6y ago
      Do you feel the same way about anything sold on Amazon? Or in supermarkets? Or is that in some way different?
      - jsjohnst 6y ago
        Just to emphasize your point, 30% take is relatively small in the retail world. A store like Amazon or Walmart or Target or Best Buy generally wants a cut of 40-50%, if not more. And that doesn’t include the cut many distributors want to take for being the middle person. (Source: I’ve been on the executive team at startups with products sold in retail stores)
        modo_mario 6y ago
        Then I'm sure you'd agree monopsonies due to increasing centralisation and clout in the past few decades aren't all that nice for the consumer and smaller players like startups.
        donkeyd 6y ago
        Yup. And that excludes the fee many brands pay supermarkets to be in the eye level spot on the shelves. New entrants have to spend money just to be visible in the racks, regardless of whether their product is being sold.
        webmobdev 6y ago
mehrdadn 6y ago
My layman understanding was Epic had to do this to be able to legally challenge Apple in court (to demonstrate damages or whatever). That's not quite the same as (covertly) breaching your contract hoping you get away without getting caught, which is the impression you're giving. Assuming that's accurate, then I'm not sure what else one would expect them to do—not do something that gets them banned, then have their case thrown out immediately because they can't (say) demonstrate damages? Did they have any other realistic options besides just shutting up and putting up with the situation (which they have been doing this whole time)?
- threeseed 6y ago
  If you're going to make a claim about a pending case and you're not a lawyer then you really need to provide a source. Because based on what the judge has said to date [1] your understanding does not seem accurate. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/29/21493096/epic-apple-antitrust-lawsuit-fortnite-app-store-court-hearing https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/29/21493096/epic-apple-antit...
  - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    You're arguing against a layman's explanation by linking to a layman's explanation. The first argument is about standing. The second argument is about, apparently, an injunction to remain available during the course of the litigation. They're two separate issues.
    - threeseed 6y ago
      No I am linking to an article with quotes from the judge presiding over the case and a factual summary. The author is not giving their understanding of the legalities and merits of the case. OP's statement, "Epic had to do this to be able to legally challenge Apple in court" is worthless if they are not a lawyer and don't have some reputable source.
      - AnthonyMouse 6y ago

webwielder2 6y ago

Framing your technology choices as a romance might not be the healthiest lens to make decisions through in the first place.

fnord77 6y ago
Sir, this is hackernews.
bluescrn 6y ago
The ‘sexiness’ of the hardware can seriously distort people’s opinions of Apple. An attractive enough person or product can get away with things that others couldn’t...

fnordprefect 6y ago

This all comes down to the statement near the end: "I believe Apple should simply refuse to cooperate with oppressive governments" Which is another way of saying "I believe Apple should either not operate in certain countries, or should try to operate in those countries in defiance of the laws of those countries." The beef is primarily with the government. Companies are stuck in the middle -- either operate in compliance with local laws (even if they believe those laws are wrong) or don't operate there at all (since the third option of operating in contravention of local laws doesn't usually last long, and has painful consequences). It would be interesting to know what the people who live in the countries think -- would they prefer not to have Apple products (or any other company's products) unavailable to them?

AnthonyMouse 6y ago
> Which is another way of saying "I believe Apple should either not operate in certain countries, or should try to operate in those countries in defiance of the laws of those countries." That's true, but it doesn't mean your beef is only with the governments, in exactly the same way that IBM's collusion during WWII can't be pinned solely on the German government. They can choose not to do business in that country, or to be as subversive as they can until they get kicked out. Not doing so is a choice. And that choice has implications for the company in other countries, when they become dependent on the countries they do business in, which then start making demands of the company's behavior globally.
- threeseed 6y ago
  In this case it is largely an issue for governments. Because what Apple is doing is not immoral or unethical but completely standard business practice. Every company who runs a marketplace sets its terms and distorts competition to benefit them. In this case the author et al are arguing that Apple should be regulated differently and forced to operate a "level playing field" marketplace.
  - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    > Because what Apple is doing is not immoral or unethical Prohibiting anti-censorship apps and content-based censorship of apps at the behest of undemocratic governments is not immoral or unethical? > Every company who runs a marketplace sets its terms and distorts competition to benefit them. Not every company monopolizes the distribution of a third party product to an identifiable discrete set of customers. > In this case the author et al are arguing that Apple should be regulated differently and forced to operate a "level playing field" marketplace. That would be a valid way to remove the moral issue by taking the ability to impose censorship out of the corporation's hands.

infinityplus1 6y ago

Money trumps everything. Everything done under the name of "we're are a privacy respecting company. We care about our users." is just a facade. Apple will sell you out in a heart beat if the law orders them to help them oppress their own citizens. I wonder how do these people sleep at night knowing what they are supporting under the mask of company. What will their children think? "I'm so proud that my dad/mom contributed to a company which silently supported oppressive and genocidal government's and helped make the world a worse place to live for the people". But let's go and buy iPhones and Macs and let them know we fully support their actions.

Lutger 6y ago
Sleeping at night is invariably achieved by dehumanizing the exploited. Chinese lives don't matter much, they are not Americans. Commies live on scraps. Such acts of othering make it easy to circumvent your conscience, this is the foundation of all war and crimes against humanity. Then, of course, there are also the real bastards, those without conscience, who couldn't care less. They also don't care about American lives, or even their friends or family for that matter. The dumb ones end up in jail and the smart bastards end up running a company. The rest of us just goes along with what everybody else does, we are too busy anyway to really reflect on our behavior. Need to buy more presents for the holidays!

throwawaysea 6y ago

Complaints about Apple’s censorship shouldn’t be limited to just foreign governments, which is a myopic and self-serving stance I often see in posts like this. It’s important to demand transparent free speech policies across the board for everyone. Like other big tech companies, Apple also censors content that doesn’t align with their progressive biases. They’ve banned numerous conservative apps from their App Store, and have threatened to ban others (example: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/06/tech-tyranny-apple-threatens-to-kick-social-media-company-parler-off-app-store-if-they-dont-ban-offensive-conservative-content/ https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/06/tech-tyranny-apple-...). They’ve also engaged in the cultural wars more directly by doing things like replacing the gun emoji with the squirt gun emoji (https://blog.emojipedia.org/apple-and-the-gun-emoji/ https://blog.emojipedia.org/apple-and-the-gun-emoji/). At this rate I will be unsurprised when Apple decides to start blocking certain websites across their devices for wrongspeak.

Lutger 6y ago
If by conservative you mean antisemitism, white supremacy, far out conspiracy, racism and hate speech: then yes they banned 'conservative' platforms. That's trying to make a cultural war of broadly accepted, democratic values. It got nothing to do with progressive politics. If you want to go full libertarian and demand Apple to give freedom to all these medieval hate platforms, you'll have to allow IS and the Al Qaidas of this world their jihadism videos too.
- encom 6y ago
  Apple doesn't care about racism. Why else would they allow a song called "Fuck White People" on iTunes? https://music.apple.com/us/search?term=fuck%20white%20people https://music.apple.com/us/search?term=fuck%20white%20people
  - acdha 6y ago
    Did you listen to the song? I mean, I’m a white guy and it’s hard to read the lyrics and not say they’re coming from a place of legitimate grievance: https://genius.com/Ajj-fuck-white-people-lyrics https://genius.com/Ajj-fuck-white-people-lyrics This hits the key point: there’s no history of oppression adding weight to that. Someone can not like white people but that’s not linked to a history of violence, financial discrimination, etc. which is living memory for a LOT of non-white people. There’s a big difference between not liking/trusting and echoing real threats of organized violence.

raylad 6y ago

There's also this: U.S. congresswoman calls out Nike, Apple and Coca-Cola for lobbying against Uighur labour bills Jennifer Wexton says companies are publicly condemning forced labour and privately trying to water down bills https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-wednesday-edition-1.5825235/u-s-congresswoman-calls-out-nike-apple-and-coca-cola-for-lobbying-against-uighur-labour-bills-1.5825242 https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-wednesday... The companies principally who are lobbying ... to have changes to your bills, are Apple, Nike, Coca-Cola [and] the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. What are they trying to do? What changes do they want to make to your laws? Well, I don't know, because they haven't come to me to try to make changes to my piece of legislation, but the word is that they're trying to water down some of the enforcement provisions while publicly proclaiming that they are very much against and condemning forced labour. They're going behind the scenes and trying to change the law. If they're against it, if they say that this is not in their interest, then why would they want to change your bills? Because it's going to impact their supply chains and make it harder for them to profit off of this forced labour. Which means that they're using the forced labour? If they're not using it, it wouldn't be a problem. But, you know, it appears that they are using it. And if they are auditing their supply chains the way they're supposed to, this legislation wouldn't be an issue.

ascagnel_ 6y ago
Per the New York Times [0]: > According to a document viewed by The New York Times, Apple’s suggested edits to the bill included extending some deadlines for compliance, releasing certain information about supply chains to congressional committees rather than to the public, and requiring Chinese entities to be “designated by the United States government” as helping to surveil or detain Muslim minority groups in Xinjiang. It’s definitely suspicious that lobbying is being done in secret, but I can’t think of many cases where any lobbying is done in the open. [0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/29/business/economy/nike-coca-cola-xinjiang-forced-labor-bill.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/29/business/economy/nike-coc...

Hokusai 6y ago

Many good points in the article. And the starting point is brilliant: > Extract more revenue from your existing customers That is the only way forward for a company so used to growth. pressure on its current customers is only going up to buy new services and pay more for the old ones. Old strategies that new tools and a device that is with you 24/7 bring to new abusive levels.

john_minsk 6y ago

I just paid for 12 months worth of Skype subscription which I have used for just 2 calls back in January. I want ALL my subscriptions to go through Apple Pay and App store. Once I subscribed to New York times. The newspaper that was advertised to me for years in all Hollywood movies as a place where honesty and freedom are of highest priority. I had to spend an hour on a phone with their representatives to cancel it refusing to accept discount or a free subscription. I don't trust many other companies. Especially if all my interactions with them are virtual and they are not specialized in information technology. At least big tech is quite rich to afford to think about users. Each bank got their app and added some obvious features there: pay for utilities, for your phone etc. I want more progress here. I want to be able to see all my fees upfront in a clear format. I want to know my credit score. I want to be able to take this credit score to different organizations. etc. etc. Big hope that fin tech will blow it up, but unfortunately start ups didn't deliver. There are some successful ones, but I think finance is too regulated for them to have a shot at a serious scale. Apple and Google have a shot at that and they will create a road for smaller companies. The situation in Belarus is bad. And believe me I know. I was concerned as well about my device security. But to be honest at the end of the day it can't be Apple's problem. Belarussian government must be replaced by Belarussian people and Apple has nothing to do with that. And on top of that - what choice do I have. Android devices in Russia are preinstalled with Russian software while Apple's aren't. That's more important sign for me.

qz2 6y ago
Spot on. Managing subscriptions is a shit show generally. Doing it in one place is the right thing for the end user.
- pmontra 6y ago
  I agree but I don't want that place to be tightly tied with the maker of my phone. I want to be able to change phone and not loose anything. Phones are commodities to me. Who makes them is as important as the brand of gas I put in my car. Browser, mail client, WhatsApp, camera, maps, banking apps are about all I need. The subscription management service should be a third party.

deleted 6y ago

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dependsontheq 6y ago

I never in my life bought that amount of software compared to the App Store, it’s convenient and mostly safe. Apple paid revenue in the store is two times higher than Googles. I think this is directly correlated with convenience and safety.

sneak 6y ago
It's also impossible to use (even for free apps) without IDing yourself, and your travel history (via IP geolocation), to Apple. The convenience comes at a cost.
- dependsontheq 6y ago
  On the user side without question, but ion the developer side this enormous convenience for the user is worth much more than 30 percent. This is not Marketing this 50% of your sales funnel.
- zepto 6y ago
  It’s true that you must identify yourself to download any app from the App Store. But you continue to repeat this outright lie about Apple receiving your travel history. There is no evidence for it, and this has been repeatedly pointed out to you. We know if you opt in to certain services they send an anonymized location. That’s all we know. The part about your travel history being sent is 100% made up by you.
  - lern_too_spel 6y ago
    As you have been repeatedly informed, that data is very easy to deanonymize. The last time you were told this, you then made the wacky claim that the data isn't sent to Apple at all. After being shown that it was, you just went on your way only to repeat the original lie again. I have not seen sneak be repeatedly pointed out that his statement is incorrect. That is a lie. He is completely correct, which is why he has never been corrected.
    - 6y ago

mdoms 6y ago

It's really not normal to be "in love" with a corporation to begin with....

chadcmulligan 6y ago
It's more a religion or cult according to neuroscience https://www.cnet.com/news/scientists-apple-makes-your-brain-go-all-religious/ https://www.cnet.com/news/scientists-apple-makes-your-brain-...
- lqet 6y ago
  > Religion is a touchy subject. Oddly enough, as I have come to discover in these pages, so is Apple. This has also been my experience. I know people with whom I just avoid talking about Apple. Personally I just accept that Apple is their religion (some of them have Apple bumper stickers) and that religion is something deeply personal.
  - Veen 6y ago
    There are people who develop a religious fervour for brands, but I too often see that used as an excuse to dismiss legitimate arguments and preferences. Some people seem to develop an almost religious antipathy to brands and their customers. If Apple fanatics think Jobs or Cook are Jesus-like, the detractors seem to cast them as one rung up from Lucifer. It's assumed that if you prefer Apple products, it must be because you're brainwashed or ignorant. The possibility that there are rational reasons for preferring Apple and its ecosystem is rejected with no consideration.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - MaxBarraclough 6y ago
    It's curious that Apple have been more successful in inspiring this kind of zealotry than have the FSF. The power of good marketing I suppose. As I indicated in my other comment in this thread, I think such 'corporate fanboyism' can be considered a kind of immaturity.

tommilukkarinen 6y ago

Apple is already $2 trillion? If we think it as a bad company, is it too late, is it already too big to stop?

donkeyd 6y ago
Please don't stop them, I really don't want to be forced to buy an Android phone.
- fsflover 6y ago
  You don't have to: https://puri.sm/products/librem-5 https://puri.sm/products/librem-5
  - matwood 6y ago
    So a huge step backwards (it doesn't even have NFC) for principles I guess.
    - fsflover 6y ago
      You cannot achieve perfection from the first step...
      - zepto 6y ago
        Sure but there is no reason to force people not to buy what they want.
        fsflover 6y ago
        What are your talking about? I suggested an alternative, didn't force anyone to do anything.
        zepto 6y ago
        The thread is about stopping Apple and people being forced to buy Android.

intellix 6y ago

I think at this point Apple are just laughing at their customer base and testing how much they can get away with

gigatexal 6y ago
Nope they’re counting my dollar bills. They keep putting out amazing hardware: AirPods, iPhones, M1 Macs, etc., I’ll keep bending around their software (which I love 99% of the time) and their control of the experience which I think is what makes everything work so cohesively. We just bought a new MacBook Air with the M1 and my wife will use it until it dies so if it’s anything like our other Apple laptops could be 7 years or so.
- intellix 6y ago
  My MBP 2013 lasted until 2019 which is amazing considering all of my prior laptops only lasted around 1 year. The same can't be said about the ones with any variation of the butterfly keyboard. My keyboard is pristine on the 2013 and after only 6 months of my 2019 they're already wearing away. I think it's to make it feel old and worn so I'll buy another.

jasoneckert 6y ago

While there are many reasons to fall out of love with Apple, including those discussed in this blog post, many people will simply not do so. Apple has always had an unusual and often unhealthy relationship with their customers, which has garnished Apple fans with labels such as "Cult of Mac members" - Ch.3 through 5 of this satirical book actually analyzes why that is: https://github.com/jasoneckert/CultOfMac https://github.com/jasoneckert/CultOfMac

fierarul 6y ago

I'd estimate that the more one rationalises this the less likely to actually switch away from Apple. It's actually quite simple: let things run their course. When the iPhone becomes too lousy, don't buy another iPhone. When the Apple Watch gets broken, don't buy another Apple Watch. When the laptop won't work, get something else. Step by step you realise all the Apple gear you have is just broken or old stuff.

bitexploder 6y ago
I am in that boat after some painful experiences with my 2018 Macbook Pro. Battery bloated and wrecked the keyboard and touchpad. That combined with the OS continued to go be "iOSified" I am out. Back to Linux for me. The phone... that is harder, Android phones just aren't as good as iPhones, and that is okay. The quality of both Macbooks and MacOS have been in decline for some time now and it is quite disappointing. Even simple things that used to just work like migration assistant required me to deal with errors in the process and it was not simple.
- fierarul 6y ago
  Embrace the crappiness and call it stoicism. My Xiaomi phone is nowhere near the iPhone but it does provide 95% at 20% prices. The smart band is no Apple Watch but it was $20. The Lenovo is no head turner but it is 16 threads at 30% the price and the display is decent. Just as Apple evolved so did the rest of the world.

swiley 6y ago

Get off these closed platforms now while you still can. The more time you wait and the more of your life you integrate the harder it gets.

d1amonds 6y ago

As a passionate Apple hater their new chips didn't make me go 180 but I'm certainly looking over my shoulder. I'm not going to lock myself into any prison but the idea it could be cosy enough to sign up is entirely new to me.

ubermonkey 6y ago

Honestly, the arguments in this series of posts are not strong. I laughed out loud when I got to his complaints about Apple's headphone chips and the ease of pairing they allow -- and how it's somehow unfair that Apple, having developed this competitive advantage, is refusing to share it with other companies. What IS it about Apple that makes a certain class of tech geek feel like they have to dislike them in such a public and performative way?

duhi88 6y ago
They're not the underdog anymore, they're very profitable, they make lukewarm claims for headlines that fall apart under scrutiny (the kind of scrutiny that tech geeks are all about), and in recent history have acted pretty badly towards developers. All that said, after building a Linux machine for development and general client work, I consider Macs the best option out there. Everything from being able to copy 2FA codes from my phone and pasting on my computer, to colored tags and smart folders in Finder make my work easier. Also, Bluetooth is just a breeze under macOS.
- f1refly 6y ago
  Hate to be that guy, but I copy paste clipboard contents across devices with kde connect. It's so reliable that I tried doing it when fixing my mum's computer without realizing it's not a magic built in thing that computers just do for some reason.
  - wayneftw 6y ago
    I can't find this for iOS, but I only searched briefly. I did see some Reddit thread about someone creating an iOS port but saying that it lacked all the functionality of the Android app.
    - nvrspyx 6y ago
      That's because it's impossible to implement that functionality in iOS with its locked-down APIs. It's the same reason that Microsoft's Your Phone app is limited on iOS compared to Android. On iOS, only Apple has the privilege to implement such features and they limit the interoperability with macOS.

vfclists 6y ago

Develop for the Pinephone or Librem

bumblebritches5 6y ago

Amen, I'm seriously tired of Apple's political and pc nonsense. Write software motherfuckers, that's your job, period.

zherbert 6y ago

Wow, honored our post is so upvoted and discussed! In case anyone wants to read the prior posts in our series, links below! Part 1: Software and Services https://hardware.substack.com/p/falling-out-of-love-with-apple-part1 https://hardware.substack.com/p/falling-out-of-love-with-app... Part 1.5: macOS Privacy Scandal and App Store Policy https://hardware.substack.com/p/falling-out-of-love-with-apple-part1-5 https://hardware.substack.com/p/falling-out-of-love-with-app... Part 2: Hardware and Accessories https://hardware.substack.com/p/falling-out-of-love-with-apple-part2 https://hardware.substack.com/p/falling-out-of-love-with-app...

specialist 6y ago

From the OC: "Censorship: Apple manages a global set of App Stores and cooperates with law enforcement in each jurisdiction in which it operates. ..." Okay. We agree. What's the fix? -- This censorship food fight is at least two problems. #1 Which rule of law applies to international companies? This is foreign policy. Just like trade agreements, treaties. USA flagged corporations like Google, Apple, Facebook need a federal solution. Just like shipping, banking, and so forth. These corporations cannot act unilaterally, nor should they be expected to. I have no idea what an international treaty covering speech and privacy would look like. Please share any and all ideas. #2 Need for fair and impartial court system, legitimate enforcement. FAANGs cannot be governments onto themselves. If my app gets rejected, there must be a separate fair and impartial court system to hear my appeal and adjudicate. If an impersonator takes my profile, I need legitimate enforcement to restore my property rights. If a FAANG closes my accounts, I must have the right to sue for damages. -- Again: Enough complaining about unfair, arbitrary behavior. We get it. Start proposing solutions.

novok 6y ago
You remove the master key nature that they have over their services and devices and let people manage their own master keys. I.e. let other app store happen, do not require apple to be the sole dispenser of keys, let side loading happen, etc. That removes a lot of profit from their %30 cut although, so they are directly incentivized to prevent that from happening

nbzso 6y ago

Silence. This is my comment. Waiting for legislative solution agains big tech in a financial depression is a pipe dream. So...I vote with my money. No more Apple tax for me.

musicale 6y ago

> I believe Apple should simply refuse to cooperate with oppressive governments – but this is an unlikely scenario, as they have extremely close ties and dependence to China, a current perpetrator of genocide against the Uyghurs. I could imagine Apple eventually moving its supply chain out of China, but it seems unlikely that they would be willing to be blocked from China's marketplace as Google services are. I wonder where Pixel phones and Chromebooks are manufactured, and where their components are sourced? I would also like to see Apple refuse to cooperate with authoritarian governments, but I don't see that happening sadly.