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How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

456 points by mwseibel 6y ago

tobyhinloopen 6y ago
love that guy. Great write.
- m4r35n357 6y ago
  The BBC is linking it now.
- kindatrueyo 6y ago
  >love that guy. Great write. What makes you think this wasn't written by a professional speech-writer/think-tank?
- vixen99 6y ago
  For those who have a different view (if that's allowed) https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/05/obama-administration-scandals-coming-to-light-legacy-in-tatters/ https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/05/obama-administration-...
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    When Obama left office, he apologised to Argentina for the US involvement in the guerra sucia. I read one of Hanson's books. He recalls that he didn't like academia because, unlike his own farm, he couldn't order people with whom he disagreed off his land. After reading this article, I think Hanson probably is disappointed that there are not more lefties thrown out of helicopters, but I am not more informed as to what his counter-suggestions to "reform at the local and state level" may be. Pat Buchanan, in my opinion, was a much more convincing National Review columnist. Obviously they differ on how to get there, but can the US right agree with the US left on "with liberty, and justice, for all"? It's an excellent sounding ideal.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    > if that's allowed Please don't. FWIW, I see little relevance of the article you just linked in what appears to be a conversation of the former president's writing abilities.
m4r35n357 6y ago
Now unflagged. Good.
HorizonXP 6y ago
META: Not sure why this was flagged/dead? I just vouched for it. Is it because it's political and not strictly about tech/hacker news? I'd argue that current events have a direct impact on all of us and this absolutely warrants discussion. Furthermore, I'm not sure I know of any instance where a President has disseminated writing like this. It's an interesting change, since it means that former Presidents can continue exerting influence.
- m4r35n357 6y ago
  Then reflagged.
- klyrs 6y ago
  Jimmy Carter has done a lot since leaving office, as a diplomat and as an author. I think Bush I remained fairly politically active after leaving office, as well. Wikipedia has several articles about "post-presidency of [ex-prez]" but it's a very incomplete list.
- dqpb 6y ago
  I think political content is discouraged here because of an assumption that politics is inherently unreasonable and trollish. But politics, government, society/culture are as much a system with dynamics as anything else, and we should be able to discuss that here. And as systems-thinkers, we should hold ourselves to a higher standard of thought and discourse.
  - jtr1 6y ago
    I really appreciate this way of articulating it. There are responsible and constructive ways that we can discuss politics in this forum and I hope that adopting a systems mentality can help us sidestep tribalism and put problem-solving at the center of the discussion. There are obviously still questions to be resolved outside of a systems discussion, like values and the proper ends for politics, but I often find that if you dig into those with humility and curiosity, there's more commonality than most people realize.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
HorizonXP 6y ago
Local politics have the most impact on people, but get the least attention. Shouldn't it be easier to engage folks on a local level via social media, electronic voting, campaigns, etc?
- rock_hard 6y ago
  On that note I will highlight that the reason that I get any local news is that Facebook makes me follow my local representatives after every election cycle So I am actually quite up to date about what goes on locally
- dfxm12 6y ago
  Local politics have the most impact on people, but get the least attention. FWIW, this is not a truism. First, the current administration in particular has been consolidating power. Also, by many measures (ads, canvassing, town halls, discussion on community-based forums), the local elections get pretty much the same attention as the federal in my area.
- tzs 6y ago
  The article agrees that local is where we can do things about these issues: > Moreover, it’s important for us to understand which levels of government have the biggest impact on our criminal justice system and police practices. When we think about politics, a lot of us focus only on the presidency and the federal government. And yes, we should be fighting to make sure that we have a president, a Congress, a U.S. Justice Department, and a federal judiciary that actually recognize the ongoing, corrosive role that racism plays in our society and want to do something about it. But the elected officials who matter most in reforming police departments and the criminal justice system work at the state and local levels
dirtyid 6y ago
Flagged / dead again. As with most posts about current turmoils.
- m4r35n357 6y ago
  Possibly the article was considered too positive for some elements?
- inappropriately 6y ago
  The racist conservatives that infest HN don't like seeing articles that offend them.
softwaredoug 6y ago
Are we headed for a system wide collapse (in the US, but perhaps elsewhere?). The current environment is one of crisis mounting on top of crisis, each with increasing urgency and each never getting solved. Just to count them - issues of executive power concentration (pre trump even..), now alongside corruption and ignoring rule of law - US overextended and largely illegitimately engaged militarily across the world - mass surveillance without consent - covid & associated economic devastation - racial justice - unending sense of riots, damage etc.. A friend of mine lived in East Germany when the Wall came down. I recall there was one event after another that eventually culminated in the collapse of East Germany and communism. Is the US experiencing something similar? Not just in terms of government effectiveness but even legitimacy?
- eanzenberg 6y ago
  No, it’s just the media narrative you’re seeing. Not reality.
  - softwaredoug 6y ago
    Which parts are the media narrative? The “imperial presidency” is part of an ongoing trend of increasing executive power for decades. High unemployment from Covid is objectively true. Ineffectiveness combating Covid at a Federal level is hard to debate...
    - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
      We used to have media that tried to be objective. They produced an Overton Window that was pretty centrist. Those days are gone. Now we have Fox with a clear bias or slant, CNN with a clear bias to the other side, and NBC somewhat more centrist but still not objective. (If you want relatively unbiased US news, try Reuters.) That's bad enough. But people don't just get "news" that way; they get it from Facebook and Twitter. The "news media" is now the people that you subscribe to, whether or not they know what they're talking about. If they feel like the system is failing, the narrative you see will be that the system is failing, whether or not it actually is. Then you have people trying to manipulate that feed. Start with the two political parties. They try to get the feed to say "You have to elect us!" One way to do that is to manipulate the feed so that it indicates that the system is failing because of the other party. There are also far-right and far-left activists, who want to manipulate the feed so that people think that the system is failing due to both parties, so that people will turn to the extremists as the only hope. And then you have foreign disinformation campaigns, deliberately trying to destabilize the US. "Your country is failing" is a great narrative for them to foster in order to destroy peoples' faith in the viability of institutions. Look, the system isn't in great shape. The imperial presidency was a thing clear back with Nixon. It got beat back with Watergate, but it's been growing again. Competence in government has also been... let's be charitable and say "not always as evident as we would prefer". But it seems to me that there is a media narrative (or mostly "meta-media", if you want to use that term for Facebook and Twitter) that is far stronger than the circumstances warrant.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
> So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. Taboos around violence for political are one of the crucial building blocks for a functioning democracy. If those taboos are broken, even for a good cause, you set a precedence that violence works. And the next cause won’t be as good. One only has to look at the lessons of the Roman Revolution that started with the murder of Grachus, and ended with an Emperor who everyone acclaimed as they were so tired of the bloodshed.
- mmastrac 6y ago
  I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is so fundamentally damaged and has not been effectively reformed fast enough. The MLK quote is trotted out pretty often, but "a riot is the language of the unheard".
  - supercanuck 6y ago
    violence speaks the language of the non-educated in the short term, but it does more damage in the long run.
    - Avicebron 6y ago
      On the other hand, the french revolution, the american revolution, and the civil war could be argued to be violent protests for reform that did some good. I think slow erosion of rights and safety nets through quiet periods of apathy does more harm to more people, and becomes harder to reverse in the long run.
      - throwaway894345 6y ago
        Can we not make comparisons between revolutions against oppressive monarchies for the right to representation and opportunistic looting and rioting? People's homes and livelihoods are literally going up in smoke and these riots aren't even over yet--can we hold off on the vague defenses of political violence?
kindatrueyo 6y ago
"Yes we can" warmed up all-over again. Why is this on HN?
- miguelmota 6y ago
  Please don’t create new accounts just to give these type of comments. If you don’t like the post then don’t upvote it and move along.
  - kindatrueyo 6y ago
    >Please don’t create new accounts just to give these type of comments. If you don’t like the post then don’t upvote it and move along. If people would just stop trying to bring Reddit's infection with aggressive partisan political activism over to HN, other people like my myself would have no reason to complain. Changing accounts is unfortunately necessary to evade personal targeting/doxxing by said activists.
  - _hilro 6y ago
    If you don't like a comment, please downvote it and move on. HN is not meta and you are not the comment police.
- augustt 6y ago
  Because unfortunately, good leadership is so rare now that seeing it "gratifies one's intellectual curiosity". I myself just went through the five stages of grief realizing that we're supposed to have presidents that can write thoughtful articles, not all caps tweets.
AdmiralAsshat 6y ago
Thanks, Obama!
mwseibel 6y ago
I think it’s time for America’s leaders to stand up and organize our citizens in order to make long lasting policy changes. Citizens are paying attention. I want there to be a great American debate about what these changes should be. The world is watching and the American system is being tested. Let’s meet the challenge and be the example we want to see in the world. Clearly America is nowhere near perfect but with effort we can improve.
- systemvoltage 6y ago
  I am disappointed by the lack of leadership from the white house. The president should address the nation, bring it together and create a strategy to resolve these issues. Edit: I should say "disappointed" instead of "surprised". Agree with the responses, there is no expectation anymore from the Whitehouse after 3 years of incompetency.
  - bananabreakfast 6y ago
    What's surprising about that? I'm actually asking, not trying to provoke. There are four years of precedent of the leadership specifically and intentionally dividing and radicalizing the nation to directly drive electoral support to maintain power. Cruelty to outside groups is historically a very effective means to consolidate power. This is completely in line with past behavior and will more than likely continue.
    - frockington1 6y ago
      4 years? Probably closer to 40 on all sides of the spectrum
      - lovegoblin 6y ago
        But BOTh SiDES ArE ThE SaME
        frockington1 6y ago
kajumix 6y ago
"I’ve heard some suggest that the recurrent problem of racial bias in our criminal justice system proves that only protests and direct action can bring about change, and that voting and participation in electoral politics is a waste of time. I couldn’t disagree more. The point of protest is to raise public awareness... But eventually, aspirations have to be translated into specific laws and institutional practices — and in a democracy, that only happens when we elect government officials who are responsive to our demands." Laws are just a consequence of an actual cultural change, and can only succeed (and not precede) the conversion of hearts and minds. Voting and democracy should not become a device to placate the dissatisfied masses into silence, make them lineup for ballot, to choose a lesser evil who, in most likelihood, will turn out to be a egotistical power-seeker. We shouldn't conflate voting with "will of the people."
- jakkyboi 6y ago
  They're both necessary for change, it's just often that direct action forces policy
  - kajumix 6y ago
    A policy or law that enforces a certain behavior that contradicts culture, would, by definition be undemocratic. A policy or law that enforces a certain behavior that is already present as a strong cultural norm, would be redundant.
    - sokoloff 6y ago
      There is an extremely strong cultural and behavioral norm against murder. I do not find laws against it to be redundant.
      - kajumix 6y ago
        Fair. Although, my point was to suggest checking the tendency of rushing into legislation. Laws are discovered, not made.
- 6y ago
user982 6y ago
Obama presided over the deaths of Eric Garner, Michael Brown, Freddie Gray, and so many other black victims of police violence which sparked very similar protests/riots and birthed the Black Lives Matter movement. Then, as now, he had the same blanket denunciations of civilian violent resistance, support for militarized police crackdowns, and anodyne advice to vote your killers away. Those responses clearly produced no real change from those turning-point moments. Why would we hope they will in this one?
softwaredoug 6y ago
If you haven’t learned about the US Civil War and Reconstruction, it’s required context for everything around this topic. I’d particularly recommend the recent Chernow biography on Grant and the Blight biography on Frederick Douglass. The civil war & reconstruction are the single most defining events in US history. They’re extremely relevant to today’s politics, racial justice, and identity based partisanship. In short I think it’s crucial to get an accurate (not “lost cause of the valiant confederacy”) appreciation for how bloody it was and the real stakes (slavery, not “states rights”). How progress was made politically. How there were a few years of positive change before the US backslid into racial patterns of old due to moral exhaustion fighting the south.
- Balgair 6y ago
  Grant is a very dense, but very good book. The period after Lincoln's death until Grant's election is nearly unbelievable. Johnson was an avowed racist and openly apologistic to southern gentry. The south and a sizable percent of the population was under armed guard and were essentially in military dictatorship under Grant. Grant was the obvious next pick for president and, wisely, was quiet about being the 'real' power in the US, physically right next to Johnson. Then, as Johnson can't help himself but to be a bullheaded moron, he gets impeached by the radical left wing of the house: the 'newish' Republican party. His trial is wild, by the way. He gets impeached, and is then sent to the senate. Where the southern states, still under the war department, can't vote or sit; it's all Union states. Bribing was rampant in the senate, but not publicly known. Johnson misses conviction by one vote. The left-wing Republican senators that vote to acquit never serve in public office again. Again, Grant is a dense read, but Chernow did a fantastic job on it. Big recommend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Andrew_Johnson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Andrew_Johnson
  - softwaredoug 6y ago
    One thing I have found is having basically a PoV character to follow through history is really useful for learning the period. Maybe its the game of thrones in me :)
frogpelt 6y ago
I agree with almost everything Mr. Obama wrote. But... I feel the complete opposite of “hopeful” when I see these riots, when I see people so angry they will destroy their own cities. Because it accomplishes the exact opposite of they hope it will accomplish: 1. Those who side with heavy-handed police tactics feel vindicated for their prejudices. 2. The communities of those who feel unheard and left out are torn down even further. 3. Every civilian-police officer interaction post-riot will be even more contentious, thus making violence more likely. Don’t get me wrong I believe there are corrupt officials and police officers. Obama is right about how to fix that on the local level. About the actual problem being protested: One of the themes of the protests is to say the names[1] of those have been killed at the hands of the police. Just using common sense tells me that if you can name off the victims it means the problem isn’t widespread or systemic across the country. Try naming the victims of rape or suicide or even murder. Name the police officers killed in the line of duty in the last ten years. You can’t there’s way too many. George Floyd should not have died. And the police officer(s) who contributed to his death should be held 100% accountable for their actions. But there will always be unnecessary deaths in law enforcement situations. Rioting and burning down your own city will not make that fact go away. So, I feel a loss of hope when I see these riots. To me, it means we are so far from working together to fix the problems that can be fixed. It creates a bigger divide in our society. [1]https://www.npr.org/2020/05/29/865261916/a-decade-of-watching-black-people-die https://www.npr.org/2020/05/29/865261916/a-decade-of-watchin...
- kryogen1c 6y ago
  > Just using common sense tells me that if you can name off the victims it means the problem isn’t widespread or systemic across the country. true, but the counterpoint is the problem is not the volume of errors, its how the errors are handled. people know those names because the issues were never closed. Public servants like police officers should be open kimono; if someone dies, it should be a big deal. where's the brutally honest post-mortem? we expect this out of meaningless things like $SaaS, why in gods name not our police forces?
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    The US imprisons roughly 5 times as many black people as a proportion of it's population than apartheid South Africa, it's volume too.
andrewclunn 6y ago
Please keep you trite virtue signaling civil. And by civil, we mean conforming to all agreed on "open and woke" explainations and opinions. Otherwise you are a bigot and will be banned, which is not censorship, but merely making a more inclusive environment where the oppressed feel safe to impose their views on you as justified by their claims of victimization. Now let's burn this F'er down!
aSplash0fDerp 6y ago
This really has become a convoluted issue about identity, coming from the perspective of a caucasion male. Having no direct or indirect involvement with "class warfare" and "culture clashes", I think most individuals are trusting that government representatives (who many want to vote out anyways) will not milk a crisis for every penny, but instead inact meaningful reform. Once we see autonomous delivery of work (physical production, not digital) spread in the developed world, it will be a great relief knowing that everybody can make a living without having to interact with groups that choose not to (if they desire). The solution will provide a safety net for everyone (females, single parents, working aged adults, etc) and keep the emotions out of the equation. Its already sickening...
- aSplash0fDerp 6y ago
  Just downvotes and no retort? https://www.huffpost.com/entry/george-floyd-cup-foods-police_n_5ed548d6c5b667aaa22ea396 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/george-floyd-cup-foods-police... It was all over a shop owner losing $20. Fortunately, creative WFA solutions will allow individual freedoms to blossom again. Time is still the most valuable Commodity in the 1st world.
teekert 6y ago
Some of those that work forces [0]... It's from 1992. 28 years old, little has changed. Still love that song. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8de2W3rtZsA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8de2W3rtZsA
runawaybottle 6y ago
What are some actual laws we can pass from this situation? I was thinking at the very least to get a citizen right where you can request to have any encounter with the police recorded. ‘Officer I request my right to have this encounter recorded’.
- Agustus 6y ago
  1. Community oversight through a board 2. Limit the use of force 3. Independently investigate and prosecute 4. Community representation 5. Body cams / film the police 6. Training in de-escalation 7. End for profit policing 8. Demilitarization of the police force 9. Fair police union contracts that remove provisions within police bill of rights that impose barriers to accountability Look here: Https://bit.ly/3cosVXM
  - runawaybottle 6y ago
    I mentioned this in another thread, but I’ve heard the idea of putting cops on rotations similar to military deployments. I don’t think a cop can psychologically hold up being on the street for years on end without losing some perspective. The job fundamentally blasts you with the worst of people, and it’s easy to develop a rotten world view if measures are not taken to handle that input. A maximum limit of X months per year on the street or something, the other half in some other duty. My take on the Floyd murder was there was definitely an element of a power complex that the cop devolved into over years.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      Very good point. I've worked in a consulting position with a German police union a long time ago (different than the US unions, they are regular trade unions here, generally left-of-center). The new guy running the local office told me that he was fortunate to discover exactly what you describe happening to himself and asked to be placed elsewhere so he won't start arresting every black person wearing baggy pants that he sees.
    - pnw_hazor 6y ago
mythrwy 6y ago
A couple of thoughts: Racism is an issue, but I wonder in the case of police the abuse the issue could be more generally described as one of class? There was an incident a few years ago in my state were police picked a white guy up who had been convicted of methamphetamine possession a few times. I'll describe the guy as a "scraggly white guy". He was dirty, unkempt, skinny, poor spoken in an old vehicle. The cops I believe were Hispanic. So the decide he is hiding meth on him, search him, push him around a little. Then they drive him to the hospital and force several enemas on him. Which turn up nothing. Then the hospital sends him a bill for the "service". It's egregious and he is rightfully suing. Is this a race issue? If George Floyd had looked like Obama or OJ Simpson, had been driving a nice car in nice clothes and was well spoken and had no priors would he have been treated the same? I don't think so, particularly if it appeared he had means to get a good lawyer. Please don't misunderstand, I'm not saying racism isn't an issue. It is and it exists. But the problems with police brutality seem almost as much a class issue. In fact you can see no shortage of black cops. But the problems still keep happening. Addressing this is long overdue but perhaps the lens should be expanded? Thought #2: People believe and are suggesting to make their voices really heard engaging in violence and unrelated property destruction is appropriate. I guess the thinking goes this will force systemic change. Here's the systemic change I see coming from that. Increased support for surveillance. Scaring the average joe middle class person into voting for law and order candidates. A few hundred people rioting aren't going to overturn capitalism. Capitalism is well embedded and a little scratch isn't going to harm it, nor is this kind of behavior likely to change public sentiment. However it does make it easier to lump everyone (rightfully) upset with police brutality into the camp of crazy destructive anarchists. So I think it's going to turn out to be a counterproductive move. The massive peaceful marches were much wiser and also get effects believe it or not. When elected politicians see that many folks that energized they ignore at their own peril.
- Jun8 6y ago
  Ross Douthat's opinion piece from two days ago backs your Thought #2: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/30/opinion/sunday/riots-george-floyd.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/30/opinion/sunday/riots-geor...
- Uhhrrr 6y ago
clairity 6y ago
> "So the bottom line is this: if we want to bring about real change, then the choice isn’t between protest and politics. We have to do both. We have to mobilize to raise awareness, and we have to organize and cast our ballots to make sure that we elect candidates who will act on reform." obama spends the first 7 paragraphs explaining the ideals of government and the vulgarity of violence, and somehow ends up on this "bottom line": let's both (peacefully) protest and politic. with all due respect, his perspective is subverted by the unique privilege and prestige that only comes with being a past president, from having played the game and won, and reads as out of touch with the needs and desires of most black folks. those folks are tired of waiting and being told to be nice and polite and civil while the police kill members of their community at random. let's appreciate the need to work the political system the way it was designed--to be slow, deliberate and inefficient--but let's not lose touch with the long violence and oppression of the system against people of color, principally black and brown folks. let's not lose touch with the immediacy and direction of the need that necessarily supercedes slowly meandering civil discourse.
- hkai 6y ago
  > police kill members of their community at random. I understand your emotion, but saying that the police walks in the street killing random black people is also unproductive. You can imagine folks on the right showcasing your post as an example of the "loony left", then starting a discussion about the fact that more whites are killed by police, and so on. Each time that happens, you lose a tiny bit of support, and that hurts what Obama thinks is important - the election outcome.
  - clairity 6y ago
    no, trying to dismiss the point as emotion or leaning on name-calling are non-sequiturs. people are mad, rightfully so, and being good little citizens doesn't change anything. you demonstrate my exact point: obama cares about elections and the slow, meandering civil process. he's insulated from the consequences of having that position, unlike the people on the streets.
    - 6y ago
hkai 6y ago
I like this post because it avoids making provocative claims that are sometimes seen in the media, and I hope that this restores some of the lost trust between the people on two sides. For example, unlike the media, Obama avoids saying that violence is partially justified, or claiming that some groups have a higher chance of being killed by police, and instead talks about the "recurrent problem of racial bias in our criminal justice system". Indeed, people on the center and center right sometimes use the FBI crime stats to argue that there is no racial bias in police killings: since African Americans make up 27% of the arrests while constituting 13% of the population, it is consistent with the fact that they are twice as likely to get killed by police. Much fewer people, however, would argue that there is no bias in the criminal justice system, given the evidence. So I am hopeful that by making more moderate arguments, Democrats will be able to squeeze perhaps the extra 1-2% which is all is indeed to defeat Trump.
- woodpanel 6y ago
  Don't get why you're getting downvoted. I agree with you except on the "defeating Trump" part. Moderation is not enough IMO. Everyone with a progressive agenda who is not stongly distancing themselve from the rioters right now will have his cause collaterally defaced by them, just as they collaterally deface these neighbourhoods. Disclaimer: Not a US-citizen nor resident.
FriendlyNormie 6y ago
Look who appears out of the fucking blue after years of silence. Nothing suspicious about this at all. You’re all retarded and deserve what’s coming.
marnett 6y ago
Tangentially related: Alex S. Vitale's book "The End of Policing" is currently free in e-book from Verso: https://www.versobooks.com/books/2817-the-end-of-policing https://www.versobooks.com/books/2817-the-end-of-policing Worth reading to familiarize oneself with leftist views on institution of Policing. Likely some eye-opening viewpoints for most.
- thundergolfer 6y ago
  His arguments for the origins of policing being a protector of private capital was an eye-opener for me. I already was familiar with the argument that the police are more often deployed in the service of protecting private property rather than public protection (eg. these protests) but it was surprising just how blatant the relationship was between capitalists being scared of labour power and new police forces being created. I need to look into it more.
drudru11 6y ago
I miss this guy
aerodog 6y ago
What significant thing did he achieve in his 8 year presidency regarding police brutality? Malcolm X conceived of things much more honestly than Barack Obama: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiSiHRNQlQo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiSiHRNQlQo
amoorthy 6y ago
Some amazing comments on this thread. Thank you! If you're looking to take an actionable step to help with racial injustice consider supporting the Equal Justice Initiative. (eji.org). Inspiring org and a leader we would all be proud to support. I donated and my grad school class is pooling in together to do the same. I'm also talking to my children about the role they can play in quelling racism when they see it. I need to do better myself. Change starts with us.
kelvin0 6y ago
Now I know this is old news, but it's not unheard of that law enforcement finds ways to infiltrate protests and make them turn into something else than a peaceful affair, even in tame ol' Canada. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/quebec-police-admit-they-went-undercover-at-montebello-protest-1.656171 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/quebec-police-admit-they-went... https://www.ctvnews.ca/quebec-police-defend-officers-actions-at-summit-1.253860 https://www.ctvnews.ca/quebec-police-defend-officers-actions... So instead of condemning the few who 'incite violence', it might be useful to ponder if the game isn't rigged and external malicious actors could be acting as agent provocateurs.
- mistermann 6y ago
  The one group who is most on top of such things, the dread conspiracy theorists, have been the subject of an intense, coordinated slur campaign for many years now. There are several interesting quirks about this whole affair, but you'll sure as hell never see them on the 6 o'clock news, voluntarily at least.
- shard972 6y ago
  So dozens of police departments are conspiring to turn dozens of peaceful protests into riots and looting? All across the united states?
emperorsclothes 6y ago
There is no strong evidence for a racially biased use of deadly force by the police in the USA. It is crazy the entire public debate around this issue does not even question this assumption.
zebnyc 6y ago
Seems to me everytime there is a groundswell of activism, there is some element of discord (looting / rioting) which becomes the new narrative and is used to discredit the entire movement. This story has been on repeat-loop for almost a decade now. Here is a protestor in NY claiming that looters were actually undercover NYPD detectives https://twitter.com/AndrewSolender/status/1266935464021430274?s=20 https://twitter.com/AndrewSolender/status/126693546402143027... Another example I can think of is the video of Jon Jones taking the spray cans from couple of rioters. These rioters are caucasian and we can only assume that they were more interested in wreaking damage than on "protesting" and hence can only be incidentally related to the movement. While strictly anecdotal, this simply disproves the false narrative on conservative circles which are inevitably going to focus on the rioting / looting rather than how to improve society.
randyrand 6y ago
Police brutality is a real issue. It's less clear that racial bias in policing is a statistically significant issue, however, when accounting for obvious things. If someone has numbers that tell a different story I am all ears. Here are mine when I attempted to find it for myself: black arrests (all crimes) a year: 2.2 million white arrests (all crimes) a year: 5.6 million https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/table-43 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-... black deaths by police: 4.5 per 100k white deaths by police: 1.5 per 100k https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793 https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793 USA black population: 13% USA white population: 75% Given a black committing an average black crime, and a white committing an avg white crime, the black person is 16% more likely to die in a police altercation. Whether or not this is statistical error or a real difference is harder to tell, but this difference is not nearly as large as most media outlets lead people to believe. Again, If someone has numbers that tell a different story I am all ears
- e40 6y ago
  The NYC stop-and-frisk numbers should be considered. https://www.nyclu.org/en/stop-and-frisk-data https://www.nyclu.org/en/stop-and-frisk-data
- danharaj 6y ago
  Laws are disproportionately overenforced on black communities. Your numbers are collected after a large amount of the bias is already baked in and collected by the people perpetrating the bias. Maybe that didn't occur to you. You're just asking questions right?
  - leereeves 6y ago
    How do the numbers shake out if we consider only homicides, where selective enforcement should be less of a factor?
    - manfredo 6y ago
      This is the report for homicides (a different table from the one in the root comment that tracks arrests): https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-... Furthermore, this data is from reports not arrests. So selective enforcement is not a factor.
_bxg1 6y ago
I feel the need to point out that this is the president who spent eight years promising big-C Change, all while mostly just reinforcing and benefitting from the existing status-quo. I think it's that sunny, vaguely positive but cowardly and ineffectual brand of politics that set the stage for the wave of populist unrest we're seeing from both the left and the right right now. Politicians have been promising change without delivering on it for far too long, and voters are done. I would argue that politicians like Obama are the very reason people no longer believe democracy works.
- nostromo 6y ago
  The fact that Obama is almost universally loved by the rich, the famous, and the powerful should tell one a thing or two about how effective he was at bringing about big-C Change in America.
js8 6y ago
I think clearly USA is on a brink of a revolution. When I was a kid, I had a peaceful revolution in my country (Czechoslovakia). Here's roughly what happened and I think is relevant: - A student protest was beaten by the police, which shocked the nation. More mass protests were organized. You're at that point now. - A week later, there was a general strike. It was more a symbolic one (I think it was a day). I think it's good to organize it because it signals to the elites and everybody - this is serious, and the citizens are willing to solve the problem peacefully and constructively. The protests can be easily misconstrued in the media, the general strike cannot. - In our case, the general demands (IIRC) were as follows: 1. Make constitutional changes to remove the single party (the communist party) from power. 2. Organize a free, special elections, which would allow newly formed parties and other candidates to run. 3. Free all the political prisoners, and honor the general declaration of human rights in practice. - As a result of this, a provisional cabinet (kind of compromise between the current elites and opposition) was established, which realized these goals in the timeframe of half a year. I think in your case, you should organize a general nationwide strike, and demand the following: 1. A constitutional reform to end dual-party system in the US, i.e. allow more candidates and parties to run, forbid all the shenanigans around voting (like electoral college and gerrymandering and queues at polling stations and obscure voting methods and machines), reform the campaign financing. 2. A special elections (starting on federal level, going down eventually) under this better system. 3. A constitutional police reform, which will put more oversight over all the civilian and military intelligence agencies that you have in the U.S., both federal and state level. (Possibly from an independent, randomly drawn body of citizens.) I believe these are demands that most Americans can agree on, so the real change is possible.
Folcon 6y ago
I could be completely off base here, but I see a lot of discussion around how to elect the correct people when I personally think that a more important issue is "how the sausage gets made". Politics is about compromise and deal making yes, but it should also be about looking at the problems that plague society and trying to find a solution that does the most good while incurring the least harm. But when decisions are made that significantly affect the lives of a group of citizens is there any effort made to consult with them? Or do they just get to find out when their life get's turned upside down? How much of the process is about what's convinient for who's currently in power or currying favour with them than trying to take apart problems that affect the citizenry and make a best effort at a solution? Part of my thinking on this came from reading about and hearing how vTaiwan was used to try and decide how to legislate how Uber would be treated there. Full disclosure, I've only read around the topic, I may get details or points wrong. I'm only mentioning it here because I've not spotted it being discussed and I think it's relevant. An overview is here for you to look at [0], however please read around it yourself if you want more detail =)... At a high level, they broke the process down into several stages: 1) Contact the stackholders and inform them a decision is being made and provide a place for engaged citizens to participate. This encompases fact finding as well as translating complex areas like legal information to be understandable to the general public. 2) Allow people to air concerns and highlight potential issues. Try and understand what groups exist and what they want, ensure that participants who will be significantly affected have a proportional voice. Treat this as a period of relflection so people can get a deep understanding of where things are. 3) Take subject matter experts as well as appropriate voices in industry and have them study what was produced in the prior stage, then have them put together a series of briefings and Q/A sessions designed to dispell common misconceptions brought up during the prior stage and put together a series of clear proposals that can be enacted outlining the pros and cons as such as feasible. This will help educate the public as well as give them a much clearer idea what the state of possible outcomes are. At this point the public are actively able to question and ask for more detailed information around the proposals on offer. 4) Take the proposals that were the outcomes of the prior stage and turn draft it into a law. Note that I'm not saying tech is the solution here, just that we might want to think more broadly about what the problem is. And now it's way past my bedtime, I'll respond to any replies after I get up =)... - [0]: https://www.centreforpublicimpact.org/case-study/building-consensus-compromise-uber-taiwan/ https://www.centreforpublicimpact.org/case-study/building-co...

456 points by mwseibel 6y ago

tobyhinloopen 6y ago

love that guy. Great write.

m4r35n357 6y ago
The BBC is linking it now.
kindatrueyo 6y ago
>love that guy. Great write. What makes you think this wasn't written by a professional speech-writer/think-tank?
vixen99 6y ago
For those who have a different view (if that's allowed) https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/05/obama-administration-scandals-coming-to-light-legacy-in-tatters/ https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/05/obama-administration-...
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  When Obama left office, he apologised to Argentina for the US involvement in the guerra sucia. I read one of Hanson's books. He recalls that he didn't like academia because, unlike his own farm, he couldn't order people with whom he disagreed off his land. After reading this article, I think Hanson probably is disappointed that there are not more lefties thrown out of helicopters, but I am not more informed as to what his counter-suggestions to "reform at the local and state level" may be. Pat Buchanan, in my opinion, was a much more convincing National Review columnist. Obviously they differ on how to get there, but can the US right agree with the US left on "with liberty, and justice, for all"? It's an excellent sounding ideal.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  > if that's allowed Please don't. FWIW, I see little relevance of the article you just linked in what appears to be a conversation of the former president's writing abilities.

m4r35n357 6y ago

Now unflagged. Good.

HorizonXP 6y ago

META: Not sure why this was flagged/dead? I just vouched for it. Is it because it's political and not strictly about tech/hacker news? I'd argue that current events have a direct impact on all of us and this absolutely warrants discussion. Furthermore, I'm not sure I know of any instance where a President has disseminated writing like this. It's an interesting change, since it means that former Presidents can continue exerting influence.

m4r35n357 6y ago
Then reflagged.
klyrs 6y ago
Jimmy Carter has done a lot since leaving office, as a diplomat and as an author. I think Bush I remained fairly politically active after leaving office, as well. Wikipedia has several articles about "post-presidency of [ex-prez]" but it's a very incomplete list.
dqpb 6y ago
I think political content is discouraged here because of an assumption that politics is inherently unreasonable and trollish. But politics, government, society/culture are as much a system with dynamics as anything else, and we should be able to discuss that here. And as systems-thinkers, we should hold ourselves to a higher standard of thought and discourse.
- jtr1 6y ago
  I really appreciate this way of articulating it. There are responsible and constructive ways that we can discuss politics in this forum and I hope that adopting a systems mentality can help us sidestep tribalism and put problem-solving at the center of the discussion. There are obviously still questions to be resolved outside of a systems discussion, like values and the proper ends for politics, but I often find that if you dig into those with humility and curiosity, there's more commonality than most people realize.
SpicyLemonZest 6y ago

HorizonXP 6y ago

Local politics have the most impact on people, but get the least attention. Shouldn't it be easier to engage folks on a local level via social media, electronic voting, campaigns, etc?

rock_hard 6y ago
On that note I will highlight that the reason that I get any local news is that Facebook makes me follow my local representatives after every election cycle So I am actually quite up to date about what goes on locally
dfxm12 6y ago
Local politics have the most impact on people, but get the least attention. FWIW, this is not a truism. First, the current administration in particular has been consolidating power. Also, by many measures (ads, canvassing, town halls, discussion on community-based forums), the local elections get pretty much the same attention as the federal in my area.
tzs 6y ago
The article agrees that local is where we can do things about these issues: > Moreover, it’s important for us to understand which levels of government have the biggest impact on our criminal justice system and police practices. When we think about politics, a lot of us focus only on the presidency and the federal government. And yes, we should be fighting to make sure that we have a president, a Congress, a U.S. Justice Department, and a federal judiciary that actually recognize the ongoing, corrosive role that racism plays in our society and want to do something about it. But the elected officials who matter most in reforming police departments and the criminal justice system work at the state and local levels

dirtyid 6y ago

Flagged / dead again. As with most posts about current turmoils.

m4r35n357 6y ago
Possibly the article was considered too positive for some elements?
inappropriately 6y ago
The racist conservatives that infest HN don't like seeing articles that offend them.

softwaredoug 6y ago

Are we headed for a system wide collapse (in the US, but perhaps elsewhere?). The current environment is one of crisis mounting on top of crisis, each with increasing urgency and each never getting solved. Just to count them - issues of executive power concentration (pre trump even..), now alongside corruption and ignoring rule of law - US overextended and largely illegitimately engaged militarily across the world - mass surveillance without consent - covid & associated economic devastation - racial justice - unending sense of riots, damage etc.. A friend of mine lived in East Germany when the Wall came down. I recall there was one event after another that eventually culminated in the collapse of East Germany and communism. Is the US experiencing something similar? Not just in terms of government effectiveness but even legitimacy?

eanzenberg 6y ago
No, it’s just the media narrative you’re seeing. Not reality.
- softwaredoug 6y ago
  Which parts are the media narrative? The “imperial presidency” is part of an ongoing trend of increasing executive power for decades. High unemployment from Covid is objectively true. Ineffectiveness combating Covid at a Federal level is hard to debate...
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    We used to have media that tried to be objective. They produced an Overton Window that was pretty centrist. Those days are gone. Now we have Fox with a clear bias or slant, CNN with a clear bias to the other side, and NBC somewhat more centrist but still not objective. (If you want relatively unbiased US news, try Reuters.) That's bad enough. But people don't just get "news" that way; they get it from Facebook and Twitter. The "news media" is now the people that you subscribe to, whether or not they know what they're talking about. If they feel like the system is failing, the narrative you see will be that the system is failing, whether or not it actually is. Then you have people trying to manipulate that feed. Start with the two political parties. They try to get the feed to say "You have to elect us!" One way to do that is to manipulate the feed so that it indicates that the system is failing because of the other party. There are also far-right and far-left activists, who want to manipulate the feed so that people think that the system is failing due to both parties, so that people will turn to the extremists as the only hope. And then you have foreign disinformation campaigns, deliberately trying to destabilize the US. "Your country is failing" is a great narrative for them to foster in order to destroy peoples' faith in the viability of institutions. Look, the system isn't in great shape. The imperial presidency was a thing clear back with Nixon. It got beat back with Watergate, but it's been growing again. Competence in government has also been... let's be charitable and say "not always as evident as we would prefer". But it seems to me that there is a media narrative (or mostly "meta-media", if you want to use that term for Facebook and Twitter) that is far stronger than the circumstances warrant.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago

> So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. Taboos around violence for political are one of the crucial building blocks for a functioning democracy. If those taboos are broken, even for a good cause, you set a precedence that violence works. And the next cause won’t be as good. One only has to look at the lessons of the Roman Revolution that started with the murder of Grachus, and ended with an Emperor who everyone acclaimed as they were so tired of the bloodshed.

mmastrac 6y ago
I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is so fundamentally damaged and has not been effectively reformed fast enough. The MLK quote is trotted out pretty often, but "a riot is the language of the unheard".
- supercanuck 6y ago
  violence speaks the language of the non-educated in the short term, but it does more damage in the long run.
  - Avicebron 6y ago
    On the other hand, the french revolution, the american revolution, and the civil war could be argued to be violent protests for reform that did some good. I think slow erosion of rights and safety nets through quiet periods of apathy does more harm to more people, and becomes harder to reverse in the long run.
    - throwaway894345 6y ago
      Can we not make comparisons between revolutions against oppressive monarchies for the right to representation and opportunistic looting and rioting? People's homes and livelihoods are literally going up in smoke and these riots aren't even over yet--can we hold off on the vague defenses of political violence?

kindatrueyo 6y ago

"Yes we can" warmed up all-over again. Why is this on HN?

miguelmota 6y ago
Please don’t create new accounts just to give these type of comments. If you don’t like the post then don’t upvote it and move along.
- kindatrueyo 6y ago
  >Please don’t create new accounts just to give these type of comments. If you don’t like the post then don’t upvote it and move along. If people would just stop trying to bring Reddit's infection with aggressive partisan political activism over to HN, other people like my myself would have no reason to complain. Changing accounts is unfortunately necessary to evade personal targeting/doxxing by said activists.
- _hilro 6y ago
  If you don't like a comment, please downvote it and move on. HN is not meta and you are not the comment police.
augustt 6y ago
Because unfortunately, good leadership is so rare now that seeing it "gratifies one's intellectual curiosity". I myself just went through the five stages of grief realizing that we're supposed to have presidents that can write thoughtful articles, not all caps tweets.

AdmiralAsshat 6y ago

Thanks, Obama!

mwseibel 6y ago

I think it’s time for America’s leaders to stand up and organize our citizens in order to make long lasting policy changes. Citizens are paying attention. I want there to be a great American debate about what these changes should be. The world is watching and the American system is being tested. Let’s meet the challenge and be the example we want to see in the world. Clearly America is nowhere near perfect but with effort we can improve.

systemvoltage 6y ago
I am disappointed by the lack of leadership from the white house. The president should address the nation, bring it together and create a strategy to resolve these issues. Edit: I should say "disappointed" instead of "surprised". Agree with the responses, there is no expectation anymore from the Whitehouse after 3 years of incompetency.
- bananabreakfast 6y ago
  What's surprising about that? I'm actually asking, not trying to provoke. There are four years of precedent of the leadership specifically and intentionally dividing and radicalizing the nation to directly drive electoral support to maintain power. Cruelty to outside groups is historically a very effective means to consolidate power. This is completely in line with past behavior and will more than likely continue.
  - frockington1 6y ago
    4 years? Probably closer to 40 on all sides of the spectrum
    - lovegoblin 6y ago
      But BOTh SiDES ArE ThE SaME
      - frockington1 6y ago

kajumix 6y ago

"I’ve heard some suggest that the recurrent problem of racial bias in our criminal justice system proves that only protests and direct action can bring about change, and that voting and participation in electoral politics is a waste of time. I couldn’t disagree more. The point of protest is to raise public awareness... But eventually, aspirations have to be translated into specific laws and institutional practices — and in a democracy, that only happens when we elect government officials who are responsive to our demands." Laws are just a consequence of an actual cultural change, and can only succeed (and not precede) the conversion of hearts and minds. Voting and democracy should not become a device to placate the dissatisfied masses into silence, make them lineup for ballot, to choose a lesser evil who, in most likelihood, will turn out to be a egotistical power-seeker. We shouldn't conflate voting with "will of the people."

jakkyboi 6y ago
They're both necessary for change, it's just often that direct action forces policy
- kajumix 6y ago
  A policy or law that enforces a certain behavior that contradicts culture, would, by definition be undemocratic. A policy or law that enforces a certain behavior that is already present as a strong cultural norm, would be redundant.
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    There is an extremely strong cultural and behavioral norm against murder. I do not find laws against it to be redundant.
    - kajumix 6y ago
      Fair. Although, my point was to suggest checking the tendency of rushing into legislation. Laws are discovered, not made.
6y ago

user982 6y ago

Obama presided over the deaths of Eric Garner, Michael Brown, Freddie Gray, and so many other black victims of police violence which sparked very similar protests/riots and birthed the Black Lives Matter movement. Then, as now, he had the same blanket denunciations of civilian violent resistance, support for militarized police crackdowns, and anodyne advice to vote your killers away. Those responses clearly produced no real change from those turning-point moments. Why would we hope they will in this one?

softwaredoug 6y ago

If you haven’t learned about the US Civil War and Reconstruction, it’s required context for everything around this topic. I’d particularly recommend the recent Chernow biography on Grant and the Blight biography on Frederick Douglass. The civil war & reconstruction are the single most defining events in US history. They’re extremely relevant to today’s politics, racial justice, and identity based partisanship. In short I think it’s crucial to get an accurate (not “lost cause of the valiant confederacy”) appreciation for how bloody it was and the real stakes (slavery, not “states rights”). How progress was made politically. How there were a few years of positive change before the US backslid into racial patterns of old due to moral exhaustion fighting the south.

Balgair 6y ago
Grant is a very dense, but very good book. The period after Lincoln's death until Grant's election is nearly unbelievable. Johnson was an avowed racist and openly apologistic to southern gentry. The south and a sizable percent of the population was under armed guard and were essentially in military dictatorship under Grant. Grant was the obvious next pick for president and, wisely, was quiet about being the 'real' power in the US, physically right next to Johnson. Then, as Johnson can't help himself but to be a bullheaded moron, he gets impeached by the radical left wing of the house: the 'newish' Republican party. His trial is wild, by the way. He gets impeached, and is then sent to the senate. Where the southern states, still under the war department, can't vote or sit; it's all Union states. Bribing was rampant in the senate, but not publicly known. Johnson misses conviction by one vote. The left-wing Republican senators that vote to acquit never serve in public office again. Again, Grant is a dense read, but Chernow did a fantastic job on it. Big recommend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Andrew_Johnson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Andrew_Johnson
- softwaredoug 6y ago
  One thing I have found is having basically a PoV character to follow through history is really useful for learning the period. Maybe its the game of thrones in me :)

frogpelt 6y ago

I agree with almost everything Mr. Obama wrote. But... I feel the complete opposite of “hopeful” when I see these riots, when I see people so angry they will destroy their own cities. Because it accomplishes the exact opposite of they hope it will accomplish: 1. Those who side with heavy-handed police tactics feel vindicated for their prejudices. 2. The communities of those who feel unheard and left out are torn down even further. 3. Every civilian-police officer interaction post-riot will be even more contentious, thus making violence more likely. Don’t get me wrong I believe there are corrupt officials and police officers. Obama is right about how to fix that on the local level. About the actual problem being protested: One of the themes of the protests is to say the names[1] of those have been killed at the hands of the police. Just using common sense tells me that if you can name off the victims it means the problem isn’t widespread or systemic across the country. Try naming the victims of rape or suicide or even murder. Name the police officers killed in the line of duty in the last ten years. You can’t there’s way too many. George Floyd should not have died. And the police officer(s) who contributed to his death should be held 100% accountable for their actions. But there will always be unnecessary deaths in law enforcement situations. Rioting and burning down your own city will not make that fact go away. So, I feel a loss of hope when I see these riots. To me, it means we are so far from working together to fix the problems that can be fixed. It creates a bigger divide in our society. [1]https://www.npr.org/2020/05/29/865261916/a-decade-of-watching-black-people-die https://www.npr.org/2020/05/29/865261916/a-decade-of-watchin...

kryogen1c 6y ago
> Just using common sense tells me that if you can name off the victims it means the problem isn’t widespread or systemic across the country. true, but the counterpoint is the problem is not the volume of errors, its how the errors are handled. people know those names because the issues were never closed. Public servants like police officers should be open kimono; if someone dies, it should be a big deal. where's the brutally honest post-mortem? we expect this out of meaningless things like $SaaS, why in gods name not our police forces?
- mhh__ 6y ago
  The US imprisons roughly 5 times as many black people as a proportion of it's population than apartheid South Africa, it's volume too.

andrewclunn 6y ago

Please keep you trite virtue signaling civil. And by civil, we mean conforming to all agreed on "open and woke" explainations and opinions. Otherwise you are a bigot and will be banned, which is not censorship, but merely making a more inclusive environment where the oppressed feel safe to impose their views on you as justified by their claims of victimization. Now let's burn this F'er down!

aSplash0fDerp 6y ago

This really has become a convoluted issue about identity, coming from the perspective of a caucasion male. Having no direct or indirect involvement with "class warfare" and "culture clashes", I think most individuals are trusting that government representatives (who many want to vote out anyways) will not milk a crisis for every penny, but instead inact meaningful reform. Once we see autonomous delivery of work (physical production, not digital) spread in the developed world, it will be a great relief knowing that everybody can make a living without having to interact with groups that choose not to (if they desire). The solution will provide a safety net for everyone (females, single parents, working aged adults, etc) and keep the emotions out of the equation. Its already sickening...

aSplash0fDerp 6y ago
Just downvotes and no retort? https://www.huffpost.com/entry/george-floyd-cup-foods-police_n_5ed548d6c5b667aaa22ea396 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/george-floyd-cup-foods-police... It was all over a shop owner losing $20. Fortunately, creative WFA solutions will allow individual freedoms to blossom again. Time is still the most valuable Commodity in the 1st world.

teekert 6y ago

Some of those that work forces [0]... It's from 1992. 28 years old, little has changed. Still love that song. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8de2W3rtZsA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8de2W3rtZsA

runawaybottle 6y ago

What are some actual laws we can pass from this situation? I was thinking at the very least to get a citizen right where you can request to have any encounter with the police recorded. ‘Officer I request my right to have this encounter recorded’.

Agustus 6y ago
1. Community oversight through a board 2. Limit the use of force 3. Independently investigate and prosecute 4. Community representation 5. Body cams / film the police 6. Training in de-escalation 7. End for profit policing 8. Demilitarization of the police force 9. Fair police union contracts that remove provisions within police bill of rights that impose barriers to accountability Look here: Https://bit.ly/3cosVXM
- runawaybottle 6y ago
  I mentioned this in another thread, but I’ve heard the idea of putting cops on rotations similar to military deployments. I don’t think a cop can psychologically hold up being on the street for years on end without losing some perspective. The job fundamentally blasts you with the worst of people, and it’s easy to develop a rotten world view if measures are not taken to handle that input. A maximum limit of X months per year on the street or something, the other half in some other duty. My take on the Floyd murder was there was definitely an element of a power complex that the cop devolved into over years.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    Very good point. I've worked in a consulting position with a German police union a long time ago (different than the US unions, they are regular trade unions here, generally left-of-center). The new guy running the local office told me that he was fortunate to discover exactly what you describe happening to himself and asked to be placed elsewhere so he won't start arresting every black person wearing baggy pants that he sees.
  - pnw_hazor 6y ago

mythrwy 6y ago

A couple of thoughts: Racism is an issue, but I wonder in the case of police the abuse the issue could be more generally described as one of class? There was an incident a few years ago in my state were police picked a white guy up who had been convicted of methamphetamine possession a few times. I'll describe the guy as a "scraggly white guy". He was dirty, unkempt, skinny, poor spoken in an old vehicle. The cops I believe were Hispanic. So the decide he is hiding meth on him, search him, push him around a little. Then they drive him to the hospital and force several enemas on him. Which turn up nothing. Then the hospital sends him a bill for the "service". It's egregious and he is rightfully suing. Is this a race issue? If George Floyd had looked like Obama or OJ Simpson, had been driving a nice car in nice clothes and was well spoken and had no priors would he have been treated the same? I don't think so, particularly if it appeared he had means to get a good lawyer. Please don't misunderstand, I'm not saying racism isn't an issue. It is and it exists. But the problems with police brutality seem almost as much a class issue. In fact you can see no shortage of black cops. But the problems still keep happening. Addressing this is long overdue but perhaps the lens should be expanded? Thought #2: People believe and are suggesting to make their voices really heard engaging in violence and unrelated property destruction is appropriate. I guess the thinking goes this will force systemic change. Here's the systemic change I see coming from that. Increased support for surveillance. Scaring the average joe middle class person into voting for law and order candidates. A few hundred people rioting aren't going to overturn capitalism. Capitalism is well embedded and a little scratch isn't going to harm it, nor is this kind of behavior likely to change public sentiment. However it does make it easier to lump everyone (rightfully) upset with police brutality into the camp of crazy destructive anarchists. So I think it's going to turn out to be a counterproductive move. The massive peaceful marches were much wiser and also get effects believe it or not. When elected politicians see that many folks that energized they ignore at their own peril.

Jun8 6y ago
Ross Douthat's opinion piece from two days ago backs your Thought #2: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/30/opinion/sunday/riots-george-floyd.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/30/opinion/sunday/riots-geor...
Uhhrrr 6y ago

clairity 6y ago

> "So the bottom line is this: if we want to bring about real change, then the choice isn’t between protest and politics. We have to do both. We have to mobilize to raise awareness, and we have to organize and cast our ballots to make sure that we elect candidates who will act on reform." obama spends the first 7 paragraphs explaining the ideals of government and the vulgarity of violence, and somehow ends up on this "bottom line": let's both (peacefully) protest and politic. with all due respect, his perspective is subverted by the unique privilege and prestige that only comes with being a past president, from having played the game and won, and reads as out of touch with the needs and desires of most black folks. those folks are tired of waiting and being told to be nice and polite and civil while the police kill members of their community at random. let's appreciate the need to work the political system the way it was designed--to be slow, deliberate and inefficient--but let's not lose touch with the long violence and oppression of the system against people of color, principally black and brown folks. let's not lose touch with the immediacy and direction of the need that necessarily supercedes slowly meandering civil discourse.

hkai 6y ago
> police kill members of their community at random. I understand your emotion, but saying that the police walks in the street killing random black people is also unproductive. You can imagine folks on the right showcasing your post as an example of the "loony left", then starting a discussion about the fact that more whites are killed by police, and so on. Each time that happens, you lose a tiny bit of support, and that hurts what Obama thinks is important - the election outcome.
- clairity 6y ago
  no, trying to dismiss the point as emotion or leaning on name-calling are non-sequiturs. people are mad, rightfully so, and being good little citizens doesn't change anything. you demonstrate my exact point: obama cares about elections and the slow, meandering civil process. he's insulated from the consequences of having that position, unlike the people on the streets.
  - 6y ago

hkai 6y ago

I like this post because it avoids making provocative claims that are sometimes seen in the media, and I hope that this restores some of the lost trust between the people on two sides. For example, unlike the media, Obama avoids saying that violence is partially justified, or claiming that some groups have a higher chance of being killed by police, and instead talks about the "recurrent problem of racial bias in our criminal justice system". Indeed, people on the center and center right sometimes use the FBI crime stats to argue that there is no racial bias in police killings: since African Americans make up 27% of the arrests while constituting 13% of the population, it is consistent with the fact that they are twice as likely to get killed by police. Much fewer people, however, would argue that there is no bias in the criminal justice system, given the evidence. So I am hopeful that by making more moderate arguments, Democrats will be able to squeeze perhaps the extra 1-2% which is all is indeed to defeat Trump.

woodpanel 6y ago
Don't get why you're getting downvoted. I agree with you except on the "defeating Trump" part. Moderation is not enough IMO. Everyone with a progressive agenda who is not stongly distancing themselve from the rioters right now will have his cause collaterally defaced by them, just as they collaterally deface these neighbourhoods. Disclaimer: Not a US-citizen nor resident.

FriendlyNormie 6y ago

Look who appears out of the fucking blue after years of silence. Nothing suspicious about this at all. You’re all retarded and deserve what’s coming.

marnett 6y ago

Tangentially related: Alex S. Vitale's book "The End of Policing" is currently free in e-book from Verso: https://www.versobooks.com/books/2817-the-end-of-policing https://www.versobooks.com/books/2817-the-end-of-policing Worth reading to familiarize oneself with leftist views on institution of Policing. Likely some eye-opening viewpoints for most.

thundergolfer 6y ago
His arguments for the origins of policing being a protector of private capital was an eye-opener for me. I already was familiar with the argument that the police are more often deployed in the service of protecting private property rather than public protection (eg. these protests) but it was surprising just how blatant the relationship was between capitalists being scared of labour power and new police forces being created. I need to look into it more.

drudru11 6y ago

I miss this guy

aerodog 6y ago

What significant thing did he achieve in his 8 year presidency regarding police brutality? Malcolm X conceived of things much more honestly than Barack Obama: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiSiHRNQlQo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiSiHRNQlQo

amoorthy 6y ago

Some amazing comments on this thread. Thank you! If you're looking to take an actionable step to help with racial injustice consider supporting the Equal Justice Initiative. (eji.org). Inspiring org and a leader we would all be proud to support. I donated and my grad school class is pooling in together to do the same. I'm also talking to my children about the role they can play in quelling racism when they see it. I need to do better myself. Change starts with us.

kelvin0 6y ago

Now I know this is old news, but it's not unheard of that law enforcement finds ways to infiltrate protests and make them turn into something else than a peaceful affair, even in tame ol' Canada. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/quebec-police-admit-they-went-undercover-at-montebello-protest-1.656171 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/quebec-police-admit-they-went... https://www.ctvnews.ca/quebec-police-defend-officers-actions-at-summit-1.253860 https://www.ctvnews.ca/quebec-police-defend-officers-actions... So instead of condemning the few who 'incite violence', it might be useful to ponder if the game isn't rigged and external malicious actors could be acting as agent provocateurs.

mistermann 6y ago
The one group who is most on top of such things, the dread conspiracy theorists, have been the subject of an intense, coordinated slur campaign for many years now. There are several interesting quirks about this whole affair, but you'll sure as hell never see them on the 6 o'clock news, voluntarily at least.
shard972 6y ago
So dozens of police departments are conspiring to turn dozens of peaceful protests into riots and looting? All across the united states?

emperorsclothes 6y ago

There is no strong evidence for a racially biased use of deadly force by the police in the USA. It is crazy the entire public debate around this issue does not even question this assumption.

zebnyc 6y ago

Seems to me everytime there is a groundswell of activism, there is some element of discord (looting / rioting) which becomes the new narrative and is used to discredit the entire movement. This story has been on repeat-loop for almost a decade now. Here is a protestor in NY claiming that looters were actually undercover NYPD detectives https://twitter.com/AndrewSolender/status/1266935464021430274?s=20 https://twitter.com/AndrewSolender/status/126693546402143027... Another example I can think of is the video of Jon Jones taking the spray cans from couple of rioters. These rioters are caucasian and we can only assume that they were more interested in wreaking damage than on "protesting" and hence can only be incidentally related to the movement. While strictly anecdotal, this simply disproves the false narrative on conservative circles which are inevitably going to focus on the rioting / looting rather than how to improve society.

randyrand 6y ago

Police brutality is a real issue. It's less clear that racial bias in policing is a statistically significant issue, however, when accounting for obvious things. If someone has numbers that tell a different story I am all ears. Here are mine when I attempted to find it for myself: black arrests (all crimes) a year: 2.2 million white arrests (all crimes) a year: 5.6 million https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/table-43 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-... black deaths by police: 4.5 per 100k white deaths by police: 1.5 per 100k https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793 https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793 USA black population: 13% USA white population: 75% Given a black committing an average black crime, and a white committing an avg white crime, the black person is 16% more likely to die in a police altercation. Whether or not this is statistical error or a real difference is harder to tell, but this difference is not nearly as large as most media outlets lead people to believe. Again, If someone has numbers that tell a different story I am all ears

e40 6y ago
The NYC stop-and-frisk numbers should be considered. https://www.nyclu.org/en/stop-and-frisk-data https://www.nyclu.org/en/stop-and-frisk-data
danharaj 6y ago
Laws are disproportionately overenforced on black communities. Your numbers are collected after a large amount of the bias is already baked in and collected by the people perpetrating the bias. Maybe that didn't occur to you. You're just asking questions right?
- leereeves 6y ago
  How do the numbers shake out if we consider only homicides, where selective enforcement should be less of a factor?
  - manfredo 6y ago
    This is the report for homicides (a different table from the one in the root comment that tracks arrests): https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-... Furthermore, this data is from reports not arrests. So selective enforcement is not a factor.

_bxg1 6y ago

I feel the need to point out that this is the president who spent eight years promising big-C Change, all while mostly just reinforcing and benefitting from the existing status-quo. I think it's that sunny, vaguely positive but cowardly and ineffectual brand of politics that set the stage for the wave of populist unrest we're seeing from both the left and the right right now. Politicians have been promising change without delivering on it for far too long, and voters are done. I would argue that politicians like Obama are the very reason people no longer believe democracy works.

nostromo 6y ago
The fact that Obama is almost universally loved by the rich, the famous, and the powerful should tell one a thing or two about how effective he was at bringing about big-C Change in America.

js8 6y ago

I think clearly USA is on a brink of a revolution. When I was a kid, I had a peaceful revolution in my country (Czechoslovakia). Here's roughly what happened and I think is relevant: - A student protest was beaten by the police, which shocked the nation. More mass protests were organized. You're at that point now. - A week later, there was a general strike. It was more a symbolic one (I think it was a day). I think it's good to organize it because it signals to the elites and everybody - this is serious, and the citizens are willing to solve the problem peacefully and constructively. The protests can be easily misconstrued in the media, the general strike cannot. - In our case, the general demands (IIRC) were as follows: 1. Make constitutional changes to remove the single party (the communist party) from power. 2. Organize a free, special elections, which would allow newly formed parties and other candidates to run. 3. Free all the political prisoners, and honor the general declaration of human rights in practice. - As a result of this, a provisional cabinet (kind of compromise between the current elites and opposition) was established, which realized these goals in the timeframe of half a year. I think in your case, you should organize a general nationwide strike, and demand the following: 1. A constitutional reform to end dual-party system in the US, i.e. allow more candidates and parties to run, forbid all the shenanigans around voting (like electoral college and gerrymandering and queues at polling stations and obscure voting methods and machines), reform the campaign financing. 2. A special elections (starting on federal level, going down eventually) under this better system. 3. A constitutional police reform, which will put more oversight over all the civilian and military intelligence agencies that you have in the U.S., both federal and state level. (Possibly from an independent, randomly drawn body of citizens.) I believe these are demands that most Americans can agree on, so the real change is possible.

Folcon 6y ago

I could be completely off base here, but I see a lot of discussion around how to elect the correct people when I personally think that a more important issue is "how the sausage gets made". Politics is about compromise and deal making yes, but it should also be about looking at the problems that plague society and trying to find a solution that does the most good while incurring the least harm. But when decisions are made that significantly affect the lives of a group of citizens is there any effort made to consult with them? Or do they just get to find out when their life get's turned upside down? How much of the process is about what's convinient for who's currently in power or currying favour with them than trying to take apart problems that affect the citizenry and make a best effort at a solution? Part of my thinking on this came from reading about and hearing how vTaiwan was used to try and decide how to legislate how Uber would be treated there. Full disclosure, I've only read around the topic, I may get details or points wrong. I'm only mentioning it here because I've not spotted it being discussed and I think it's relevant. An overview is here for you to look at [0], however please read around it yourself if you want more detail =)... At a high level, they broke the process down into several stages: 1) Contact the stackholders and inform them a decision is being made and provide a place for engaged citizens to participate. This encompases fact finding as well as translating complex areas like legal information to be understandable to the general public. 2) Allow people to air concerns and highlight potential issues. Try and understand what groups exist and what they want, ensure that participants who will be significantly affected have a proportional voice. Treat this as a period of relflection so people can get a deep understanding of where things are. 3) Take subject matter experts as well as appropriate voices in industry and have them study what was produced in the prior stage, then have them put together a series of briefings and Q/A sessions designed to dispell common misconceptions brought up during the prior stage and put together a series of clear proposals that can be enacted outlining the pros and cons as such as feasible. This will help educate the public as well as give them a much clearer idea what the state of possible outcomes are. At this point the public are actively able to question and ask for more detailed information around the proposals on offer. 4) Take the proposals that were the outcomes of the prior stage and turn draft it into a law. Note that I'm not saying tech is the solution here, just that we might want to think more broadly about what the problem is. And now it's way past my bedtime, I'll respond to any replies after I get up =)... - [0]: https://www.centreforpublicimpact.org/case-study/building-consensus-compromise-uber-taiwan/ https://www.centreforpublicimpact.org/case-study/building-co...