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Medications that change who we are

• aszantu 7y ago
  Probably all that's going through the stomach has one effect or another... Ever watched kids behaviour before and after sugary and non-sugary meals?
  • Zeratoss 7y ago
    https://www.livescience.com/55754-does-sugar-make-kids-hyper.html https://www.livescience.com/55754-does-sugar-make-kids-hyper... There seem to be a bunch of studies indicating that it is not the sugar that affects the behavior
    • DailyHN 7y ago
      That link does little to disprove that sugar isn't the culprit. And anecdotally, both my partner and I can recognize adverse psychological effects in myself after I consume too many high-glycemic carbs (ie, sugar).
      • tapland 7y ago
        I was pretty sure that the kids + sugar behavior change was debunked and all up to expectations from the parents. Now, this is not a study but covers what I thought was the case since years back: >The sugar-hyperactivity myth is based on a single study from the mid 1970's in which a doctor removed the sugar from one child's diet and that child's behavior improved. Since then, over a dozen larger studies have been conducted and not one of them has found that sugar causes hyperactivity. Interestingly enough, researchers have found that parents are more likely to say that their kids are overly active when they think they've consumed sugar. https://www.eatright.org/food/nutrition/dietary-guidelines-and-myplate/sugar-does-it-really-cause-hyperactivity https://www.eatright.org/food/nutrition/dietary-guidelines-a...
        • DailyHN 7y ago
          As someone who's been on the keto diet, the majority of the past five years, this seems blasphemous.
  • copperx 7y ago
    > Ever watched kids behaviour before and after sugary and non-sugary meals? Yes, and I've never noticed a difference. I believe that "sugar rushes" are imaginary.
• elil17 7y ago
  I’d be curious to hear the experiences of people who take/have taken some of these drugs such as L-dopa. With alcohol, I feel different but I don’t feel like a different person. Is it like that, or is there a larger feeing of difference?
  • norepinephrine 7y ago
    I've took various antidepressant (SSRI/SNRI/SARI) medications over the course of my life and some minor & major tranquilizers. Some alone, some in combination. Heck, during some time I even mixed them with psychoactive instances like LSD/amphetamines. I doubt that it changed who I am, but it changed on how I act. Well, of course it depends on definition of who we are to start with. They certainly affect on how do you feel and how do you think, but when effects wear off, you typically return to your former ways. Maybe with new thoughts or new look at your life. But that's it. I continue to see those kind of meds as a mere tools, which you can use to alter your thinking for a period of time to get yourself a fresh look at ordinary things. I think that therapeutic effect exists here only if you get some realization about your former ways. Some meds made me worry less about my life when I've realized that worrying doesn't actual solve anything, it just makes you feel worse. Some made me more emphatic towards people when I've realized that everyone is exactly as same as me, just with different life story.
    • rantwasp 7y ago
      the experiences you have make who you are. if a drug changes the way you behave it will change how you experience things. so depending to what you are exposed to, it can definitely change who you are. an extreme example for environmental factors radically changing people’s behavior is lead poisoning.
  • cipher_314159 7y ago
    For a lot of folks with epilepsy, this is nothing new. Plenty of medications that treat epilepsy are known to induce changes in mood, mental state, etc. Probably the biggest one is levetiracetam (also known as Keppra). If you read the warning label, it says it can induce "mood changes", which is a euphemistic way of saying "it can turn you into an uncontrollable rage monster". I've been there. Whatever you think you know about getting ticked off, you haven't felt angry until you've felt it on Keppra. There is no gradation of anger-- no "subtly annoyed", no "getting ticked off", no "this is really getting me angry". Just "zero" and "Incredible Hulk on a bad day". The stuff that annoys you may not be anything that annoyed you in the past, but now it's something that makes you want to bash somebody's skull against the pavement until it goes soft. And there is no warning, no ramp-up-- you just suddenly find yourself enraged beyond all human comprehension, and you're doing everything you can just to restrict yourself to yelling incoherently instead of resorting to physical violence. There's even a cute nickname for this whole horror show: "Kepprage". I'm off levetiracetam now (onto lamotrigine, which is also prescribed as an antidepressant). But it scared me pretty badly. I genuinely fear getting angry now-- because I worry that I'm going to wind up back where I was. I was single when I was on Keppra, but I'm in a relationship now-- it scares me to think what I might do if I ever get back to Kepprage levels of anger, because it could easily cost me my partner. So, to your question: was I a different person on Keppra? I mean, I still responded to my name and worked the same job and had the same favorite foods and such. But I was a lot angrier, I was getting angry all the time, and there was no off switch. It's a valid philosophical question as to whether that makes me a "a different person". Looking to your example, consider that feeling that you have on alcohol, and its assorted side effects and behavioral changes. Now imagine that you were stuck in that mode, 24/7. Would you be "a different person"?
• asimovfan 7y ago
  Everything that happens to us changes who we are. Every conversation we make. Everything we think. We are not the same person in any given moment. Also, because we are shaped by the things that happen to us, we are literally actually not ourselves but rather "everything else".
  • rantwasp 7y ago
    yes and this would not be contested. the same way we are not surprised when the drugs we take have the intended effect. this goes wrong is when the side effects are unexpected or undesirable. as a society we are conditioned to be entitled and to believe everything has an easy/quick fix.
  • banads 7y ago
    "No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man"
• truth_be_told 7y ago
  I have long wondered about this. In the Asian world, traditional Systems of Medicine focus on "holistic" treatment and the general public often calls Western Medicine, "Allopathy with side-effects". I had intuitively felt that these medicines must have an overall effect on behaviour which may always not be obvious to the observer unless the difference between the before and after were stark and noticeable. We really need a lot more research on this aspect of all commonly used medicines. A lot of our mood-swings, irritability, anger, anti-social behaviour etc. might be explained by this.
  • PragmaticPulp 7y ago
    > In the Asian world, traditional Systems of Medicine focus on "holistic" treatment and the general public often calls Western Medicine, "Allopathy with side-effects". I had intuitively felt that these medicines must have an overall effect on behaviour which may always not be obvious to the observer unless the difference between the before and after were stark and noticeable. Many traditional herbal medications also have significant side effects. It's not accurate or helpful to describe this as Eastern vs. Western medicine. All significant supplements and medications are bound to have side effects to some degree. Good, evidence-based doctors don't care if the practice is Eastern or Western. If the practice or supplement has reasonable scientific evidence, a good doctor will incorporate it into their recommendations. I've had plenty of "western" doctors prescribe practices like acupuncture, yoga, meditation and traditional TCM supplements like ginger and turmeric. The real problem with the Eastern vs. Western medicine false dichotomy is when it leads people to choose a side and stick with it. I've known a few people who suffered far too long with ineffective TCM or alternative medicine treatments before accepting proper, evidence-based treatment. The problem isn't limited to Eastern medicine, of course. For example, many depressed patients take Saint John's Wort for its herbal anti-depressant properties and are surprised to experience as many, if not more, side effects than highly targeted SSRI medications. Just because it's natural doesn't mean it's safer or more effective.
    • truth_be_told 7y ago
      You make some good points. However that is not what i meant when i said "holistic". As an example, in Ayurveda/TCM, "prophylaxis" is given greater importance than symptomatic treatment. We are what we eat and how we live. The beauty of Western Medicine is that it is highly targeted and therefore provides immediate relief. However, people go overboard with no thought to other factors, consequences and ramifications. They look at it in isolation. Whereas in Eastern Medicine; controlled diet (with emphasis on stomach/gut cleansing), massage therapy (affecting the circulatory, lymphatic and nervous systems), change in environment(Summer/Winter) etc. are given more prominence. The organism and the environment in which it is embedded are looked at together. With what we know today, both these approaches need to be harmoniously blended together for the best effect.
• chiefalchemist 7y ago
  Intra-system communication and control isn't limited to the brain. The gut for example, plays a part. What's concerning about this article is that the researchers (?) we're not open to the possibility.
  • rantwasp 7y ago
    i believe this is taking a little bit too far. it’s about actually measuring/quantifying the effects. when this is hard/really expensive to do I’m sure the decision not to pursue it is made at several levels. in research (and especially in cutting edge research) you don’t get to explore everything and you have to carefully pick and choose what you do if you want to be around more than a few years.
    • chiefalchemist 7y ago
      The tests are done to look for such things. To deny them when presented is indefensible.
      • rantwasp 7y ago
        i believe we are talking about different things. my point is certain markers are easier to test for and more objective than others.
        • chiefalchemist 7y ago
          Fair enough. This was the bit that caught my attention: Alarmed, the couple turned to the study’s organisers. “They were very hostile. They said that the two couldn’t possibly be related, that he needed to keep taking the medication, and that he should stay in the study,” says Golomb.
    • jiofih 7y ago
      Many modern studies have shown that not everything related to behavior is governed by the brain, some of it is offloaded to other subsystems. Seems to me that this should be considered when talking about the effect of medication on these behaviors, as the parent commenter pointed out.
• julieswhites 7y ago
  everything else
• ChrisMarshallNY 7y ago
  As the article mentions, this is a complicated, not-simple type of thing to filter out. If it were anything other than the BBC reporting it, I would probably have a raised eyebrow. One of the things that makes it difficult to develop a causative link, is things like someone may suddenly develop symptoms of heart disease or high blood pressure, but they are also going through a personally stressful time, and have taken to exercising less, worrying, and sitting around eating popcorn. It may seem as if some medication or practice is the cause, but exercising less, and munching salt can throw the curve. Being worried about the future (or our own health -the reason we’re on the meds) can also have a fairly profound effect on things. Animal testing will usually control for stuff, but real life is messy. For example, alcohol is known to interact with all kinds of compounds. Rats don’t drink, so, unless the researchers deliberately introduce alcohol (in realistic dosage) in their regimen, they can be quite surprised, when unanticipated things start happening in human trials. I’ve heard of unanticipated results manifesting, because a symptom only appeared within a certain dosage window, and testing had used extreme dosages.
• Spoppys 7y ago
  It's a worrying thought. My dad has become much less empathetic and more bitter over the past decade. I'd assumed it might have been the pain that was at least partially responsible, now I'm wondering if its actually the painkillers
  • malandrew 7y ago
    It could also be the pain itself. My dad’s Parkinson’s and congestive heart failure did the same to him long before medicines were involved.
  • radmarshallb 7y ago
    Chronic pain will chip away even the kindest person's ability to care about anything else.
  • deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
• blackbrokkoli 7y ago
  An easy but not glamorous course of action to prevent this from happening on a large scale is flushing the notion that taking a pill for everything everytime is A-OK out of Western culture. The average American is on ~1 prescribed pain killer and usually has access to several other over the counter opioids. People take incredibly potent whatevers against the mildest allergies to prevent having reddish eyes. A pill to take the edge off, a pill to calm down. Kids who are not firmly in the right area of every imaginable performance bell curve at age 7 get a whole palette of medicine against fictional anger issues, concentration issues, learning issues, anxiety issues. I am glad that the topic of psychological side effects is gaining traction. Personally, I have always felt that taking any medicine is most likely going to be a trade-off against side effects we do not really understand yet. Keeping this in mind, one can make a much more sensible decision whether or not to take a pill. If we get this notion back into the head of people it would help a lot IMO.
  • ses1984 7y ago
    What "other over the counter opioids"?
  • okusername 7y ago
    That's not Western, but American. In Europe much weaker painkillers are prescribed due to risk of addiction, and in places like germany a lot of placebo (= overpriced homeopatic bullshit)
• goblin89 7y ago
  Tangentially (and anecdotally), not long ago I seem to have contracted what seems like a flu (or the like), and I remember feeling very healthy, social and unusually well—almost high—most of the day right until my brain went foggy and fever started. In hindsight, I did not behave quite like myself that day, especially considering I felt somewhat overworked the preceding week. This prompted me to first draw the analogy with taking and withdrawing from a substance, and then to imagine a possibility of some future human-made flu-like virus that preserves the incubation stage effects and lacks the “conventional” symptoms. Like a contagious mood boost, contractable for free by air!
  • travisjungroth 7y ago
    A month ago I had an especially good workout then a few hours later the dengue fever that was incubating hit.
    • DailyHN 7y ago
      Similarly, I've learned to avoid running when I begin to feel any symptoms of a sinus infection or head cold. Time and time again, I wake the next day will the full-blown illness. Instead, a little rest goes a long way in letting my body heal itself.
  • thaumasiotes 7y ago
    > This prompted me to first draw the analogy with taking and withdrawing from a substance The substance has no goals. The flu specifically wants you to be social.
    • goblin89 7y ago
      The action of taking the former is probably in alignment with some goals (even if potentially short-sighted), while contracting the latter alters your behavior so that it can spread more widely in accordance with the goals of its own DNA. But yeah, I didn’t think my analogy through further than surface symptoms.
  • 7y ago
• hrt_throw 7y ago
  I am very curious about how transgender HRT affects personality. In a sense, HRT is supposed to change who one is, but the personality changes people undergo on it seem underappreciated and not really understood or studied clinically. At least I have not been able to find a published study specifically about about how HRT changes personality. I think not all of it can be attributed to decreased gender dysphoria or people "coming out of their shell" and being able to live and socialize as who they want to be after transition. If I had to make a $100 bet today on what future research will find, I would wager that 1. FtM HRT reduces Big Five neuroticism despite increasing aggression. The effect is permanent and persists after the person's "second puberty" induced by HRT is over. It affects beliefs about how society should function. To a degree of approximation, it makes transmen more conservative or right-wing than they were before the treatment. 2. MtF HRT does not have the opposite effect to the above (but it may, and probably does, have other effects). Edit: The opposite effect on neuroticism and sociopolitical beliefs. It decreases aggression.
  • jiofih 7y ago
    I think most people don’t have the context to understand half of what’s being said there.
    • samcodes 7y ago
      This is a funny comment on HN, where it is very easy, for me at least, to be so far out of my element that I have no clue what is being discussed, such as any post about hardware!
  • cc81 7y ago
    It could be but I used to look at studies about roid rage and found back then that there was not that much support for increased aggression, at least not when using testosterone and in moderate dosages for bodybuilding (which are very large dosages compared to replacement therapy). On the other hand I'm pretty sure when we are talking really strong AAS such trendbolone there is so much anecdotal evidence that people get aggressive that I have no problem buying it in that case. Never done any AAS but been prescribed corticosteroids (prednisone) which is an anti-inflammatory and that sure as hell changes the mood for me and many others. It is on the side-effects list as well I think and personally can get more irritated on it. Not always but it is noticable.
• boyadjian 7y ago
  Medication is just a tool, it must be used with care and intelligence.
  • rantwasp 7y ago
    it is a tool. i don’t believe it’s a matter of care or intelligence. it’s just hard to synthesize something that targets one thing we don’t like (cholesterol in this case). sometimes it goes as far as not really understanding the underlying mechanism through which the drug actually works - i would say most times the full interaction of the drugs are not fully understood. if you add the desire to take a pill and just fix whatever issue you have i can see how, on a large scale, this can be problematic
• tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  The world is in the midst of a crisis of over-medication, with the US alone buying up 49,000 tonnes of paracetamol every year – equivalent to about 298 paracetamol tablets per person Shocking, I knew it was bad but this is madness.
  • DailyHN 7y ago
    This Common Painkiller Does Some Interesting Things To Your Mind - VICE https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/gymgx7/tylenol-can-have-some-unexpected-effects-on-your-mind https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/gymgx7/tylenol-can-have-s...
    • truth_be_told 7y ago
      Very good article! Thanks for the link. Some quotes; There’s some imaging research that suggests that social and physical pain could have overlapping biological mechanisms, he tells me, so the parts of the brain that Tylenol affects to make your headache go away are the same parts that are involved in these other feelings as well; the same brain networks that allow us to feel and respond to physical pain may have been co-opted to also feel social pain. He felt like the effects of Tylenol they were seeing were similar to mind wandering. People cared less about social rejection. They didn’t respond as much to existential anxiety; a similar kind of sensitivity reduction to the outside world. “I think we should absolutely have a scientific concern to recognize the neurocognitive and neuro-affective consequences of substances that we've heretofore thought of as benign,” Handy says. Ratner says there’s also the intriguing possibility that acetaminophen might be used therapeutically one day for people dealing with minor cases of depression or social anxiety. The last point is the one which i had observed in my own behaviour and led me to suspect a correlation between acetaminophen/paracetamol and my "feeling good".
  • fhars 7y ago
    As another illustration: that is enough paracetamol to reliably kill a quarter of the human population on earth.
  • TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
• lifeisstillgood 7y ago
  I am happy to accept that mass prescription of drugs will have unexpected side-effects, and the cholesterol/ anger / violence link seems plausible. My question is has anyone studied voting intentions with this as well?
  • logicchains 7y ago
    You mean studied whether mass prescription of drugs has an effect on how the people taking them vote?
• Cougher 7y ago
  “Then one day, she was chatting to a cholesterol expert about the potential link in the hallway at her work, when he brushed it off as obviously nonsense. “And I said ‘how do we know that?’,” she says.” These are our “experts”, brushing off things about which they have no clue. “How are all these medications affecting our brains? And should there be warnings on packets?” Yet another warning in a list that makes people's eyes glaze over is not going to do much good. Additionally, people have a difficult time relating to just how bad these effects can really be. People also tend to overestimate their abilities to perceive the effects and endeavor to address them. “But Golomb’s most unsettling discovery isn’t so much the impact that ordinary drugs can have on who we are – it’s the lack of interest in uncovering it. “There’s much more of an emphasis on things that doctors can easily measure,” she says,” And what is it about medications that makes people willing to connect these dots? Money and a willingness to not want to know and even to deny what is known. The chemical industry is very good at this and we've known about that for a very long time. There are numerous studies that have found these same associations with various chemical products from artificial food colorings to laundry chemicals and more, with effects that include anxiety, depression, and rage. The ubiquity of chemicals with unknown physiological and psychological is staggering. It's gotten to the point where we can barely socialize without being inundated with the 21st version of passive smoking. People and places can't exist without dousing themselves and their spaces with chemical crap that also includes air "fresheners", candles, essential oils, etc. Road rage, infertility, anxiety, depression . . . all these psychological phenomena that have risen along with the public test lab that is our world. And chemical companies are using the tobacco industry's template of doubt and denial along with decades of honing the craft. “But in order to minimise any undesirable effects and get the most out of the staggering quantities of medications that we all take each day, Mischkowski reiterates that we need to know more. Because at the moment, he says, how they are affecting the behaviour of individuals – and even entire societies – is largely a mystery.” It's true. And if it's a problem for medications that are presumably scrutinized, what do we think is the case with the 10s of thousands of chemicals that are basically tested using the “honor system” of industry testing its own products for safety? These chemicals are not tested singly, nevermind in the near limitless combinations in which they exist in our daily lives. “At this point it’s worth pointing out that no one is arguing that people should stop taking their medication. Despite their subtle effects on the brain, antidepressants have been shown to help prevent suicides, cholesterol-lowering drugs save tens of thousands of lives every year, and paracetamol is on the World Health Organisation’s list of essential drugs because of its ability to relieve pain. But it is important that people are informed about any potential psychological side-effects.” And every one of these articles will include this boilerplate rationalization that's a lot more complicated – and different – than this.
• LeonM 7y ago
  This is basically the story of my mother. About 15 years ago she was suffering from a panic disorder. Instead of trying to help her, her doctor prescribed a fairly high dose of benzodiazepines and be done with it. These 'medicine' only made matters worse and changed her behavior radically. She became very closed up, never wanting to do anything, never leaving the house and always finding excuses not having to do anything. The stuff is also terrible for her memory, so she can't really remember anything since she has been taken these pills. The worst part is that these medicine are highly addictive, and we have now passed to point where we had to accept that my mother will be on these pills for the rest of her life.
  • complex1314 7y ago
    Highly recommend not giving up on getting off it. My grandmother thought she needed it to sleep for many years. But finally, after pressure from the family (several who are health care professionals), the doctor took her off it. She became so much better, even her sleep improved! Having worked as a health care professional myself, the rule was maximum 3 weeks, only for temporary treatment, long term need to find other solutions. Always some exceptions but then everything else had (or should have) been tried.
  • ohiovr 7y ago
    I think benzodiazepines can be partially behind my friend, Jerold Haas' death especially the withdrawal from it. These drugs are really strong and it if it is strong in a way that doesn't help it leads to great distortions in thinking. Some drugs can help a lot but if it doesn't help it can hurt pretty bad. I take some drugs that help me tremendously but I won't last long without it because I can't get restful sleep without it anymore. In that case I have a dependency without addiction but I read that benzos can also be addicting. It is a shame Darry did not get the kind of help I received. I believe he died because of a psychiatric system that doesn't take time to observe patients and make small adjustments. I pleaded that Darry get hospitalized and I think he was but it just didn't work out for him. They got him in and in a few days he was out. I was in for weeks. I've basically been on the same medicine regimen since then 14 years ago. (Darry was Jerold's nick name)
  • jryan49 7y ago
• aphextron 7y ago
  >"It turns out many ordinary medications don’t just affect our bodies – they affect our brains." I feel like perpetuating this mindset is the ultimate sin of modern psychiatry and the entire industry of psychiatric pharmaceuticals - your brain is your body. It's not some special thing that sits apart from it. It is an integral part of the whole, no different than your kidneys or liver. People think they can take an antidepressant and it just "works" on their brain somehow. It affects absolutely everything.
  • kerkeslager 7y ago
    I think the problem goes at least as far back as Plato and the allegory of the cave. Plato spread this concept that there was a difference between the body and mind or soul, and Western culture has never really recovered from the stupidity of that idea. There's really no evidence or justification for it. Your mind and your body are the same thing.
    • darkerside 7y ago
      Modern philosophical thought and religion were built on that idea, and they were arguably inextricable from science in it's early stages. This is like someone people never fully recover from adolescence. Correct, it forms an integral part of who you eventually become.
      • kerkeslager 7y ago
        > Modern philosophical thought and religion were built on that idea, and they were arguably inextricable from science in it's early stages. So were lots of bad ideas. Science is a process of trial and error. This was an error. The hope is that you correct the errors, not make them an integral part of your belief system.
    • ezequiel-garzon 7y ago
      Some people feel one’s essence is fundamentally different from one’s body, including the brain as part of the body. Not saying I support this notion, but to brush it aside as stupid or unjustified seems a bit hasty in view of the huge literature behind these issues. Moreover, doesn’t the notion of reincarnation in some parts of the Eastern world show it’s not restricted to Western culture? I’m sure there plenty more such notions outside the West.
• Horseshoe 7y ago
  I've been on high-dose statins since 1995. I still feed birds and squirrels in my yard, and most of my so-called neighbors are still alive and seemingly well. I must be doing something wrong :-)
  • jiofih 7y ago
    Your point being? This is a very sad attempt at dismissing an entire study by personal anecdote, just to feel better about yourself. Truth is nobody cares, and you just made yourself another obnoxious commenter on the internet :-)
• bsenftner 7y ago
  Yeah, if you trust our "institutions" - still - you are in need of a serious, unsettling wake up. The 60's slogan of "Question authority" is needed more than ever. Our "institutions" are predators and we are all its prey. Your mindset is the most valued, because one they have that they can feed you anything: any foods, any drugs, any laws and any shitty orange politician they want. I go out of my way to not take any medications, as well as maintain my body with healthy foods and regular exercise. This is a responsibility we need to respect to maintain clear heads in this psychological war period we live.
• sugarkjube 7y ago
  Definitely 100% true, first hand experience here. I had mild medication prescribed for regulating blood pressure. Supposedly without psychological side effects. I found out a year later that it dramatically affected my personality. More or less like in the article, but in the opposite way. The frightening thing is, I didn't know !!! I found out a year later when temporarily stopping the medication, my kids started to make remarks, alluding on my changed behaviour. Only that moment I started to realize what happened. Also affected my profesional live: I heard years later that people / collegues had noticed (but never mentioned it). I'm pretty sure it impacted my career. All without me knowing. For medication without any known psychological effects. I took this medication for a year without realizing anything was wrong, that will probably also be the case for other people, and I'm pretty sure in many cases psychological side effects won't show up in clinical trials. I'm pretty sure if you take anything like anti anxiety / depressants, psycho-pharmaceuticals, or just anything with known side effects, the impact must be dramatic. When I found out, discussed it with (several) docters : one said "impossible", another "interesting, tell me more". It assume most doctors are clueless here. When you break a leg, they can set it and it heals. When you have a headache, they look in their book to see if there is a pill. But anything out of the ordinary, it may be hard to find good medical help.
  • infradig 7y ago
    Can I ask what medication it was?
    • jdietrich 7y ago
      I'll wager it was a beta blocker. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_blocker#Anxiety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_blocker#Anxiety
      • sugarkjube 7y ago
        Spot on, indeed. However, I wasn't suffering from anxiety, and so the effect was a unexpected. Actually, stress indeed disappeared, but for me stress was never an issue. I used to draw a lot of energy out of my (positive) stress.
• EamonnMR 7y ago
  I'm interested that they did not touch on ADD medication there.
  • deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  • scottlocklin 7y ago
    Pretty sure everyone knows speed changes your personality!
• bemmu 7y ago
  I've had trouble falling asleep for a long time, and at some point years ago started taking ambien for it. It took a long time to realize just how strong an impact it was having on me (could write a long blog post about it). Stopping wasn't easy, but now year+ later I'm basically back to normal, and feel like I have superpowers compared to the time when I was still on it.
  • bravura 7y ago
    a) how often and for how long, and what impact? and b) yes, you should write a blog post on it
  • 1996 7y ago
    which effects? drowsy in the daytime? walrus in the nightime?
• spodek 7y ago
  Let's also consider the other direction -- how fresh vegetables and fruit, plus whole grains, beans, nuts, seeds, and herbs improve mood, behavior, resilience. Throw in some vigorous exercise, and for most people, drugs can't do better, without the drugs' side effects and cost. For many people, switching from a standard American diet to largely those ingredients would register as changing who they are. I just finished reading a chapter on it in Dr. Michael Greger's How Not to Die -- the chapter is "How Not to Die From Suicidal Depression" with plenty of footnotes to primary sources.
  • mcv 7y ago
    You could argue that any kind of self-improvement, therapy, dealing with depression and other issues, changes who you are. The big question is: do they change you for the better or for worse? If they make you happier, more balanced, more in control of your behaviour, then I'd argue that's a good think. If they make you angry, uncontrolled, a slave to your impulses, then that's bad. A lot of the stuff we put in our bodies subtly or not-so-subtly influences our behaviour. I wonder if at some point we'll understand these processes well enough to allow us to influence our own behaviour in the direction we want.
    • lanstin 7y ago
      What if you are happier but become a sex pest (phrase I learned from TFA)?
  • maxerickson 7y ago
    Let's also consider the other direction -- how fresh vegetables and fruit, plus whole grains, beans, nuts, seeds, and herbs improve mood, behavior, resilience. Throw in some vigorous exercise, and for most people, drugs can't do better, without the drugs' side effects and cost. If you look at health outcomes, this is sort of obviously not true. I don't mean the health benefits of the things you mention, I mean the "for most people" part. Of course I realize that you are engaged in advocacy. I think it probably isn't good advocacy, people should be thinking about (and talking to their doctor about) the best way to approach their current health status, not imagining that they are going to eat well and get lots of vigorous exercise.
• m3kw9 7y ago
  You are what you eat? But this is no different than hard drugs
• dvfjsdhgfv 7y ago
  Some of these examples given in the article are actually quite known. For example, many anti-asthma drugs available today have a leaflet informing the patient about possible side-effects, such as increased anxiety, nightmares, changes of mood and behavior, and even suicidal thoughts. Knowing this is extremely helpful as it allows the patient to distance oneself from these symptoms in case they occur.
• JohnJamesRambo 7y ago
  I had never heard of this link between statins and aggression and Tylenol and lack of empathy before. Interesting. Maybe this is why Boomers act so strange now. “Former flower children lost their empathy and caring for the world and the next generation when their doctors put them all on statins and they started gobbling Tylenol” would be quite an interesting story. Both my parents are on statins, it seems every person past a certain age is, the doctors think statins are something everyone should be on. I have my doubts. >“Should people at low risk of cardiovascular disease take a statin?” https://www.bmj.com/content/347/bmj.f6123 https://www.bmj.com/content/347/bmj.f6123
  • PragmaticPulp 7y ago
    > Both my parents are on statins, it seems every person past a certain age is, the doctors think statins are something everyone should be on. In my experience, modern doctors are well aware of the risks of statin treatment. I'm sure you can find trigger-happy doctors who over prescribe statins, but that's definitely not the recommended best practices. According to one of the first studies I found, only about 1 in 4 patients who fit the criteria for statin use are actually prescribed statin medications at followup: https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/JAHA.118.010241 https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/JAHA.118.010241
    • jiofih 7y ago
      > only about 1 in 4 patients who fit the criteria for statin use are actually prescribed That’s not of much help, when the criteria is very close to “everyone”.
  • kshacker 7y ago
    I take statins and my best self-analysis is that it gives me nightmares. I can't count the number of times I have woken up with bad dreams. However, I think it is my brain trying to regulate heart by causing it to beat harder. When I exercise, I usually do not have these nightmares, or maybe I am too tired to notice them.
    • 7y ago
• dm03514 7y ago
  When I was younger, I believed that my spirit and thoughts and personality were somehow separate from my body. Like something uniquely me that was put in my body to animate it. As I get older I began to think the opposite; that our thoughts, personalities, and everything original about us are a product of our physical composition and brain structure. I began to really notice this after reading Principles where Ray Dalio observes that the way people think and approach and solve problems are largely fixed. I notice this in myself and the people around me. There was a sort of inflection point for me after getting my first massage. My body was completely relaxed, resulting in my mind being completely relaxed. After the massage I went to a trader joes in columbia maryland during a saturday. This trader joes is a logistic nightmare that always stresses me out, so much so that I would usually avoid going during peak shopping. But this time I was completely unbothered, nothing about the experience was bothering, my thoughts were completely at ease. At that moment I realized that it wasn't stress making me tight, it was tightness making me stressed. The dependency was completely backwards from the way I thought. Being self centered i thought my thoughts informing my physical, but it was actually my physical causing my thoughts. I have genetically high blood pressure, and I have to consume low sodium in order to keep it under control. While I was learning this and my blood pressure was high, I was literally angry about everything. Road rage, meltdowns at home, being short and explosive with my wife and son. I thought it was stress or affect from work I thought it was thoughts/personality -> body. As soon as I experimented with reducing sodium, getting exercise and my blood pressure dropped, my mood completely rounded out and fixed itself. IT was actually my body -> thoughts. The same thing happens with hiking spending time outside. I used to feel like a connected, or spiritual relationship with the outdoors. I enjoyed drinking and camping, I thought that there was a spiritual relationship with the outdoors (personality -> body) when, once again, it's actually just physical -> personality, dopamine is released, my blood pressure probably dropped my thoughts became more relaxed, my body was tired and relaxed from hiking. I think that we really are a lot less conscious than we think we are, and that the way we think, our personalities, and pretty much everything about us is largely predetermined by our physical composition. I think we're just more complicated animals and our personalities are just a response to physical input and reactions.
  • elwell 7y ago
• cassowary37 7y ago
  Ironic that folks who work in CNS drug discovery spend much of their time worrying about how to get our molecules /into/ the brain... and less energy thinking about keeping non-CNS meds out. For what it's worth, though, these 'off-target' CNS effects have also prompted a lot of enthusiasm for repurposing existing FDA-approved drugs for new indications, since their safety is already established.
• davedx 7y ago
  Wow, turns out there's a lot of studies into e.g. paracetamol out there too. e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31523834 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31523834 More here: https://twitter.com/autismepi/status/1214388671752916992/photo/1 https://twitter.com/autismepi/status/1214388671752916992/pho...
  • hprotagonist 7y ago
    There were few associations with behavioural or neurocognitive outcomes after age 7-8 years, whether reported by the mother or the teacher. If paracetamol use in mid-to-late pregnancy has an adverse effect on child neurocognitive outcome, it appears to mainly relate to the pre-school period. It is important that these results be tested using other datasets or methodologies before assuming that they are causal. translation: "we studied it and no, tylenol doesn't cause autism; calm your pants."
• carbocation 7y ago
  This article provides no meaningful references (but some useless ones). This is a really interesting question, but essentially left unaddressed.
  • deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  • blithedale 7y ago
    You're a cardiology fellow, so you're likely much better versed in this than me, but take a look at the paper cited here: Sure looks like they were doing multiple comparisons until they found a happenstance significant subgroup. : | "Several studies have supported a potential link between irritability and statins, including a randomised controlled trial – the gold-standard of scientific research – that Golomb led, involving more than 1,000 people. It found that the drug increased aggression in post-menopausal women though, oddly, not in men." https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0124451 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... They adjusted for multiple comparisons, and after that even the post menopausal group wasn't significant. The bit about how that doesn't matter because testosterone mechanisms and independent chance seems very hand-wavey to me. (Moved my broader comment on this from a reply here to it's own reply to the thread.)
    • carbocation 7y ago
      Yeah that sentence is very yikes: “Among (postmenopausal) women, a borderline aggression-increase on statins became significant with exclusion of one younger, surgically-menopausal woman (N=310) β=0.70(SE=0.34)P=0.039.”
• noir_lord 7y ago
  I take gabapentin for a spinal issue (nerve damage in my spine) and it has a drastic and noticeable effect, I'm naturally quiet and introverted but when I take the higher prescribed dose that changes radically, I become outgoing and talkative, I have more confidence and I seem to be more creative (though that could just be the reduction in pain). It definitely alters my mood and I can feel it happen.
  • sebazzz 7y ago
    That's essentially what MDMA does too.
    • cc81 7y ago
      It is quite different than MDMA in practice though I think and even despite its name it does not bind to GABA I would still more liken it to the positive/social feelings of alcohol than mdma (don't mix alcohol and gabapentin though, it can be dangerous).
  • jjjensen90 7y ago
    Gabapentin has an off-label use as a mood stabilizer for those with bipolar disorder and other mood disorders. I've seen it turn manic lives into successful lives.
  • samcodes 7y ago
    I was on a large dose of gabapentin for anxiety for a few years. It felt similar to the flow of a beer, before the negative parts of the alcohol kicked in
  • hprotagonist 7y ago
    which is interesting, because the dosage range for gabapentin is, to put it mildly, all over the place: 100-3,600 mg/day https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/07/18/know-your-gabapentinoids/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/07/18/know-your-gabapentinoi...
• pkaye 7y ago
  > the US alone buying up 49,000 tonnes of paracetamol every year – equivalent to about 298 paracetamol tablets per person I bet many of those expire and are never consumed. There is very little pricing difference based on quantity so people buy much more than needed.
• blithedale 7y ago
  I suggest folks read the cited research. It's eye-opening here, in a way that's very irritiating. This does not seem like particularly good science journalism. Because of the road rage story in the lede, a whole lot of people are going to walk away from that piece thinking Statins -> Aggression. The author even repeats it in a troubling way by linking to Golomb's research (their main source for this article I imagine) on statins and aggression: "Since then, more direct evidence has emerged. Several studies have supported a potential link between irritability and statins, including a randomised controlled trial – the gold-standard of scientific research – that Golomb led, involving more than 1,000 people. It found that the drug increased aggression in post-menopausal women though, oddly, not in men." You can see right there - it's plain as day. Randomised controlled trial, gold standard. The really astute scientists now know statins make people aggressive! Except, EXCEPT... the study that Golomb DID found that statins overall lowered aggression... in men, and did not raise it in pre-menopausal women. Again, the paper the journalist linked to shows the OPPOSITE of what the BBC piece claims it does. The only reason the author found a subset of people that statins increase aggression in: they sliced and dice their data a bajillion different ways. They looked at age strata, baseline aggression, sleep-status, serotonin status, until they found a group -- post meno-pausal women -- in which the statin appeared to increase aggression. And that was only significant when they excluded one participant who had medically induced menopause! "Among (postmenopausal) women, a borderline aggression-increase on statins became significant with exclusion of one younger, surgically-menopausal woman (N=310) β=0.70(SE=0.34)P=0.039" When you adjust for multiple comparisons done (otherwise pretty sure you're just p-hacking) the result for women becomes statistically insignificant --which, given the number of ways they sliced the data, is not at all surprising! "The sample size for women is half that for men, calculations did not power separately for women, and significance of findings for women would not be sustained under multiple comparison adjustment." The overall thrust of 'Be a medical conservative, it's easy to cause treatment related harms you're not aware of' is a good one - there are many pharma companies pushing product on iffy claims. And a lot of research that shows how pharma trials minimize side effects and maximize results by surreptitiously excluding unhealthy trial participants. The research in this piece is neither brilliant, nor awful... but given that the author appears to happily be quoted in a way that takes their research out of context, and seems to be the main source in an article that makes claims that their research does not support, really concerns me that they have their own flawed biases on statins ...
• specialist 7y ago
  Along with other commenters -- thank you for sharing! -- I've also had psychoactive side effects. TLDR: Self reporting simply doesn't work. We need better tools, strategies. We need before, during, and after assessments. We need to inform the people in our lives, so we can better monitor each other's mental state and keep each other accountable. Most recently: Started bupropion after a surgery, in hopes of mitigating impact. Got caught in a rut. Took myself off (all of my meds), just to reset. I felt zero difference on or off the bupropion. The only way I knew something was different was the activity monitor on my Apple Watch. (Just to be sure, I resumed bupropion for a week, and I became lethargic again. Again, I felt zero difference mentally.) Ages ago: I was very high dose prednisone for a long time. Completely changed my personality. I was more or less completely out of control, a human wrecking ball. I reported mania, suicidal thoughts, etc. My team of doctors completely dismissed such possibilities. Of course, none of them, nor any of their patients, had received as much prednisone as me. Even after stopping prednisone, it took years to find a new normal. I was active volunteering afterwards. I advised both patients and their families what the prednisone (and other drugs like chemo) was going to do to do. Strongly encouraged seeking professional counseling, with their eyes wide open.
• droithomme 7y ago
  > with the US alone buying up 49,000 tonnes of paracetamol every year – equivalent to about 298 paracetamol tablets per person Commonly sold as the brand Tylenol. How is it possible that the average across the US population is nearly one per day, the entire year? Max dose is 3900mg per day. Tylenol is not recommended for children with fevers as it can have bad side effects (Reye's Syndrome). More popular than aspirin perhaps as less risk of ulcers. Not as safe as Advil/ibuprofen. Even for people regularly taking pain meds, not all will be on paracetamol. Those taking it every day (perhaps 5% of the population?) must be taking 10-20 tablets a day? > – and the average American consuming $1,200 worth of prescription medications over the same period. I know there are people taking pills that cost tens or hundreds of thousands, but this is still a pretty amazing average number across the population. This year I spent just over $100 on meds and that was probably one of the most med-intensive years of my life. Most years I have spent perhaps $10 for one round of antibiotics and $2 on advil, which I buy a $6 bottle every 3 years or so. So under $20. I wonder if the numbers are significantly less for most other countries.
  • detaro 7y ago
    Wonder at what rate that stuff gets bought and not used, either by institutions or consumers, but it's probably only a small part.
    • droithomme 7y ago
      Hey that's actually a really good point. First aid kits, hospitals, etc. Could half of it simply be trashed?
  • copperx 7y ago
    Reye's Syndrome is for Aspirin, not Tylenol.
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• nonbirithm 7y ago
  All I can say is when I realized the only thing that prevents me from thinking negative thoughts about people and things around me, being frustrated at everything for petty reasons I end up forgetting shortly after and demolishing my productivity was whether or not I remember to take my medication, it became a major existential crisis for me. I felt powerless to actually change my situation through my own actions rather than chemical rebalancing which I can't just will into existence. Of course I only have this crisis if I forget to take my medication.
• teh_klev 7y ago
  There's a wee bit of me feels I need to ask the question, is this years later, the Andrew Wakefield effect rearing its head again[0]? Very small samples of and affected medicated population being used to push an agenda? Sure I realise the brain and body are deeply interconnected, but until we invest time and money in valid studies, how can we possibly know the outcomes of prescribing statins, paracetamol etc in terms of human behaviour. For the vast majority of the population taking these drugs are generally safe (yes I know about drug allergies, which is a different thing), but I imagine there will be in a minuscule percentage of a population, long term, there may be side effects. I think this should be researched, but this sounds like a scare story. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield
• wolfspider 7y ago
  Well this is our modern “moldy rye bread” situation folks so what to do? Let’s not forget disruption of the basal ganglia is responsible for the formation of delusions which could be in the same ballpark here.
• Dwarfield 7y ago
  Damn, this really hits home for me. My brother got prescribed statins and one day the family had found out he'd stopped because he didn't believe in it and they didn't feel like they were doing anything. He's one of the most scientific guys I know but began giving conspiracy theory/anti vaxx sort of answers of how you can't trust medical studies all the time. When asked why he still takes his hypertension meds and trusts the literature there, he couldn't answer and he said it's just a feeling. The family was pretty astounded. Honestly felt as if someone you know suddenly started believing antivax or say flat earth ideas is the closest way I can describe it. I was explaining how inconsistent his thinking was, bordering on delusional. If the truth was that the statins affected him psychologically, I can see why he'd chose to hide it when his wife and parents are grilling him for it.
  • bvinc 7y ago
    I just want to say that there is definitely a lot of misinformation around statins. All I want to say is that the debate among statins isn't settled like the debate about whether vaccines cause autism. If you do a dive of only published medical research papers and professional opinions, you'll find nuanced arguments about what even causes heart attacks, how effective statins are, what the very real side effects are (eg: cancer), who all should be taking them, and what alternative treatments (eg: diet, exercise) should be tried first.