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A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?
- mschuster91 13y agoAs an European citizen, I think such "sentences" are more resembling China, Russia or any other dictatorship, but not a first-world country. Do human rights actually mean something in the US?
- hobs 13y agoIf you are poor? Not really. Every person that I see listed was not able to afford a decent lawyer.
- aspensmonster 13y agoBut... but... the public defender!
- mschuster91 13y agoEver watched an episode of Cold Case? Public defenders in the US largely seem to be a joke
- aspensmonster 13y agoExactly.
- eruditely 13y agoThis highlights the necessity of putting yourself in a good financial situation, otherwise be put in prison or just be black I suppose.
- eruditely 13y agoThis highlights the necessity of putting yourself in a good financial situation, otherwise be put in prison or just be black I suppose.
- eruditely 13y agoThis highlights the necessity of putting yourself in a good financial situation, otherwise be put in prison or just be black I suppose.
- eruditely 13y agoThis highlights the necessity of putting yourself in a good financial situation, otherwise be put in prison or just be black I suppose.
- eruditely 13y agoThis highlights the necessity of putting yourself in a good financial situation, otherwise be put in prison or just be black I suppose.
- eruditely 13y agoThis highlights the necessity of putting yourself in a good financial situation, otherwise be put in prison or just be black I suppose. This situation is unfathomable .
- eruditely 13y agoThis highlights the necessity of putting yourself in a good financial situation, otherwise be put in prison or just be black I suppose. This situation is unfathomable .
- a8da6b0c91d 13y agoYou can have cute little Norwegian jails with light sentences when the population is Norwegians. But America is not Norway. We have a large underclass of people capable of destroying whole communities. Have you seen those pictures of Detroit in ruins? Crime in the 1970s got out of control. Stuff like this played a role in turning it around.
- vacri 13y agoNorwegians comprise a mere 0.6% of the population of Europe.
- mschuster91 13y agoDoes the stupidity of politicians to adequately address these problems warrant human rights violations? I don't believe so!
- justanother 13y ago[ citation needed ]
- sillysaurus2 13y agoCrime in the 1970s got out of control. Stuff like this played a role in turning it around. Does anyone have any data to back this claim up?
- mschuster91 13y agoYeah, the decline in murder counts, for example.
- sillysaurus2 13y agohttp://i.imgur.com/S5QjFxC.png http://i.imgur.com/S5QjFxC.png Does anyone know of any research showing that the decline in murder counts is primarily due to harsher penalties?
- 13y ago
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- anigbrowl 13y agoThis is poorly focused. I'm absolutely against 3 strikes sentencing laws and mandatory sentencing escalations that can put petty criminals in prison for life. On the other hand, I'm perfectly OK with some criminals dying behind bars, such as the recently sentenced Whitey Bulger, and so are most other people. By making the headline about the undesirability of custodial life sentences in general, they'er losing a large chunk of their potential audience straight out of the gate.
- prutschman 13y agoThe largest word in the title is "what", as part of the phrase "for what?", making clear that the focus is on the reasons for--as opposed to the mere existence of--custodial life sentences.
- coldtea 13y ago>On the other hand, I'm perfectly OK with some criminals dying behind bars Lots of people from similar backward countries are perfectly OK with this. I mean, if I recall correctly you even still have the death penalty. Heck, it's only like 4 decades since you ended racial seggregation (in paper). Hopefully, in 3-4 decades you'll turn to more modern and humanistic views on justice, catcing up to most Western European and Skandinavian countries. Meanwhile, some can cheer and advocate for minor BS changes to laws like the gay marriage (talk about a upper middle class issue, if there ever was one), while others rot in prison for "crimes" such as the ones described in TFA, blacks constitute the lion's share of prisoners, prisons are turned into private for profit enterprises, 16 year olds are sentenced to death, SWAT teams get employed for BS offences, etc... Talk about not seeing the big issues...
- brianbreslin 13y agoThis is pathetic. What country that claims to be a leader in human rights can justify this kind of justice? I'm American, and am continuously appalled to hear these types of stories. these stories are sadly not isolated either, and have come to almost be accepted. We are nearing a tipping point where we need to stand up for a better America. Screw the prison industry, and screw lobbyists, screw bipartisan squabbles. We need to stand up for ISSUES that matter to us.
- grecy 13y ago> What country that claims to be a leader in human rights can justify this kind of justice? They claim to be the leader in a lot of things when it's plainly not true. Unfortunately, the only people that believe the marketing spin are those inside, or those in the poorest of countries. Everyone else knows it's a crock of shit.
- BorisMelnik 13y agothis is so ridiculous. 3 strikes laws are meant for murderers who just don't know how to stop carrying guns, not these people.
- spodek 13y agoIt's a crying shame. Normally that's an empty phrase, but it describes this. I can't imagine reading this and not feeling tears well up. No sense of what I would call humanity. From what perspective does this make the world a better place? What am I missing about being human that this fits into that I don't understand?
- rfnslyr 13y agoDoes anybody else constantly live in a state of guilt? So many lives lost and wars fought just to get us to where we are, and we reap the benefits. I feel so guilty for having a good paying job in the city. I'm not adding any value to the world, none at all. I tinker with a few codes every day and make silly amounts of money, when there's people struggling to put food on the table working 18 hour days. I need to do something, something meaningful. Sure I send a few bucks every month to a few charities but that just makes me feel worse, like I'm loosely patching holes of my guilt with plaster that will fade the next day. What can I do? I don't belong here. I'm just another waste of space.
- cgag 13y agoI feel guilty for doing basically anything that isn't actively working to fix our horrible justice system.
- evincarofautumn 13y agoYou are a waste of space. But committing suicide is so boring—I don’t recommend it. You are going to have to figure out the point you want your life to have. So quit complaining on the internet about your privileged guilt, save your silly amounts of money for a while, then spend it executing your vision. The best any of us can hope to do is to mean something to somebody.
- wrongc0ntinent 13y agoEdit. [disagreement was expressed re: suicide]
- pswenson 13y agoinsanity. I don't understand how many of these cases aren't cruel and unusual punishment
- anigbrowl 13y agoSadly, because it's cruel but not unusual. Oversentencing is so common in America that you can't make the argument in absolute terms, and some conservative judges are hostile to comparisons with extraterritorial penal policy - eg Justice Scalia got rather annoyed about such comparisons being made in a case about whether the death penalty could be administered to minors.
- dsjoerg 13y agoA throwaway thought: one of the (many) problems with 3-strike sentencing laws may be that the escalation curve is too quick to have the desired curbing effect. It is obvious (to me) that some kind of exponentiation would be more effective. 2x - 3x elongation per offense would be plenty harsh, harsh enough for the offender to understand it's going to be much worse each time, without it having to be life in prison. EDIT: On second thought, formulaic sentencing is bad. Sentencing is hard, consistency is hard, but to remove human judgment and discretion from the sentencing process seems obviously wrong.
- skyraider 13y agoIs it really hard to make a decision on sentencing in nonviolent crimes that you wouldn't personally lock someone in a box for? If they're not a danger to society, they do not belong in a box.
- clarky07 13y agobreaking and entering seems like something people should probably go to jail for. That's what several of these were.
- skyraider 13y agoThere's a huge difference between 'going to jail' and life in prison.
- clarky07 13y agoYes, but that isn't what the comment i replied to said at all. And while perhaps life is overkill, I think repeatedly breaking and entering does in fact deserve a long time in jail.
- whiddershins 13y agoI posted another comment to this effect, but "a long time" is a concept that I think has become distorted in our culture. If you or I got even 6 months in jail for stealing a wallet, I am pretty sure it would feel like "a long time." This business of decades or life imprisonment for property crimes is draconian, we have just collectively lost perspective. IMHO.
- zw123456 13y agoFrom the map it seems like all the cases are in the Southeast. Is the Southeastern United States sort or a 3rd Word Country within the U.S. ? It seems like every time I see something like this it is in the Southeast. It seems to me like the rift from the Civil War has never completely been resolved. Just an observation, does anyone else feel the same way?
- randuser 13y agoThe southeastern part of the United States has a larger African-American population. http://www.censusscope.org/us/map_nhblack.html http://www.censusscope.org/us/map_nhblack.html
- GuiA 13y agoI've lived in the southeast of the US as well as the west coast, and I am from Europe. To my foreign eyes, infrastructures and poverty levels in the south east of the US definitely made it feel like a 3rd world country.
- clarky07 13y agoIt depends on where you are. Certainly on average there are more poorer areas, but there are plenty of nice areas as well. Atlanta, Nashville and a few other places are really nice. Edit: Also 3rd world is a bit hyperbolic. Even the bad areas of the southeast aren't comparable to most of Africa and the real 3rd world.
- einehexe 13y agoClaiming the US is a third world country may make Europeans feel better about their place in the world but it has fuck all to do with reality.
- pfedor 13y agoFor example, Alabama is almost as poor as France or Japan, and Mississippi (the poorest state) is almost as poor as Spain and New Zealand. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP
- mynameishere 13y agoThe three strike laws make some sense as long as people conflate "felony" with genuinely serious crimes like rape or aggravated assault. If someone commits three consecutive rapes...well, who would complain about locking him up forever? The problem is in the increasing meaninglessness of the term "felony". If they limited it to grievous crimes, there wouldn't be much controversy. Also, it's weird to have something presented as "news" when The Simpsons covered it satirically about 15 years ago: http://smotri.com/video/view/?id=v1656836867c http://smotri.com/video/view/?id=v1656836867c
- neeee 13y ago>If someone commits three consecutive rapes...well, who would complain about locking him up forever? I would. The primary purpose of prisons should be rehabilitation. Giving life sentences doesn't take into account that people can change.
- clarky07 13y agoSo what is a reasonable punishment for a serial rapist? Seems to me that no one should get the chance to be convicted of rape 3 times. They should have been locked up before that 3rd one happened. I might, might let you out at some point after 1. After 2, screw you. You clearly didn't learn and you are a danger to society.
- eropple 13y ago> So what is a reasonable punishment for a serial rapist? Forced placement in a facility for treating mental illness until his doctors determine he is sufficiently well to be reintegrated into society, followed by a public-service program as societal (note: not personal) recompense for his actions. That would be after the first time, though, not the third. Because this person needs help and is plainly not getting it--and he will never get help in an American prison. But because enough people are more interested in vengeance than justice--and your posts pretty firmly demonstrate that you're in that camp--it will never, ever happen.
- sukuriant 13y agoIt says that there is no hope for these individuals. ... Why? Why can't they be brought out of their situation? I know some have been in there for 22 years already; but, why can't they be helped from this? I just... it doesn't make sense to me
- coldtea 13y agoIt's because of what they call "law" in these there parts. It makes it nearly impossible for them to get freed.
- joshfraser 13y agoThere is so much injustice with our prison system right now. There are countless people being locked up for their entire lives over petty crimes -- the same crimes that relatively comfortable white boys like me could easily get away with because I can afford a decent lawyer. It's racism and wealth discrimination disguised as justice. The US is leading the world in incarceration and the privatization of prisons is a big contributor to the problem. Corporations have a financial incentive to incarcerate more people and lobby to keep strict drug laws. Meanwhile we make jokes and laugh about things like prison rape. I believe we will look back at prison rape the same way we look back at slavery. How barbaric are we that we think that's somehow okay? For things to change, we’re going to have to change public perceptions and start demanding change. I wish we were a little less eager to deprive people of their most basic right to freedom. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_Sta...
- jrockway 13y agoI don't think the underlying problem is privatized prisons. The underlying problems are our unconscious biases, political pandering ("tough on crime!") and weaknesses in our educational and healthcare systems.
- joshfraser 13y agohttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/laura-carlsen/immigration-reform-privation-prisons-lobby_b_2665199.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/laura-carlsen/immigration-refo...
- jrockway 13y agoSure, but privatized prisons would be just as happy to house rich white people as they would be to house poor immigrants. They want their prisons full, but that doesn't explain why people commit crimes, how people are caught, arrested, tried, convicted, and sentenced.
- yummyfajitas 13y ago
- gregsq 13y agoIn England, especially in the eighteenth century, we had a somewhat similar, though harsher regime where one strike against you on a charge of petty larceny could lead to imprisonment in HM prisons. Of course the prison population swelled as hangings became less fashionable, and the temporary prison ships were unmoored to sail to places like Australia. Transportation for the theft of a loaf of bread. Ironic that that country, along with its New World cousin the USA, claimed ideals of freedom so strongly. Much more so in the USA. Mandatory sentencing has it's place it can be argued. This seems antithetical to first principles however.
- skyraider 13y agoI think an effective way to frame this issue is: Would you consider these people so dangerous that you would personally build a small concrete box and forcibly keep them inside for many hours a day for the rest of their lives? Or, is that how you would treat your children if they committed some minor, nonviolent, kinda-maybe-bad act? No reasonable person would - the moral decision above is clear. Would you pay for someone else to do this? We are brothers and sisters in humanity, and we elect people who write these laws and treat fellow people like this (and/or refuse to reform the US Sentencing Commission). We are to blame.
- mrkmcknz 13y agoThe UK in comparison: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentencing_in_England_and_Wales http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentencing_in_England_and_Wales I understand that we don't have the kind of problem that a8da6b0c91d mentioned here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6743406 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6743406 however I really don't understand the common sense of the US judicial system. If I were to be caught breaking some computer misuse act against a UK company it's more than likely a slap on the wrist would be handed down to me. Abuse a US corporation and I would expect extradition and 10 years or more in one of your comfortable prison cells. Also compare the US and UK prisons themselves. UK: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=uk+prison+cell&espv=210&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=hOeGUqbPDIaLswbktoHACg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1600&bih=798 https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=uk+prison+cell&espv=210&es... US: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=uk+prison+cell&espv=210&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=hOeGUqbPDIaLswbktoHACg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1600&bih=798#es_sm=93&espv=210&q=american%20prison%20cell&revid=1513913037&tbm=isch&imgdii=_ https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=uk+prison+cell&espv=210&es...
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- memracom 13y agoThe decline of the American empire. Things like this are nickel and diming the taxpayers to the bone.
- electic 13y agoI actually teared up reading this. This is truly a tragedy.
- thaumasiotes 13y agoMy thoughts on the best and the worst: > Anthony Jackson has a sixth-grade education and worked as a cook. He was convicted of burglary for stealing a wallet from a Myrtle Beach hotel room when he was 44 years old. According to prosecutors, he woke two vacationing golfers as he entered the room and stole a wallet, then pretended to be a security guard and ran away. Police arrested him when he tried to use the stolen credit card at a pancake house. [...] Because of two prior convictions for burglary, Jackson was sentenced to mandatory life without parole under South Carolina's three-strikes law. Emphasis mine. I can't get too worked up about a system that sentences this guy to life in prison. What would be the point of letting him out? He knew he wasn't supposed to walk into other people's hotel rooms and take their wallets. At what point does society get to tell people "you know what, knock it off"? > After serving two years in prison during his mid-twenties for inadvertently killing someone during a bar fight, Aaron Jones turned his life around. He earned an electrical technician degree, married, became an ordained reverend, and founded the Perfect Love Outreach Ministry. Years later, Aaron was hired to renovate a motel in Florida, and was living in an employee-sponsored apartment with two other workers, one of whom had a truck that was used as a company vehicle by all the co-workers. Jones decided to drive this truck home to Louisiana to visit his wife and four children. When Aaron's co-worker woke up to find his truck missing, he reported it stolen. Aaron was pulled over by police while driving the truck. I don't understand this one at all. Shouldn't the truck owner have testified on his behalf? Declined to press charges? I made a cursory effort to look up the case itself, but I have no idea how to do that.
- Anderkent 13y agoUh, why would he decline to press charges? The guy stole his truck. No idea why the article calls it 'borrowing'.
- sliverstorm 13y agoThey are applying spin to fit their narrative. This is the ACLU; they are both biased and good at spin. (Which is not to say they are quacks, but know what you are dealing with)
- 13y ago
- ElComradio 13y agoThis is an important issue, but HN?
- w_t_payne 13y agoWhy, you you rather people buried their heads in the sand?
- ElComradio 13y agoI'd rather people buried their heads in Gawker for this.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- analog31 13y agoI came across a web forum thread in which the escalation of criminal sentencing laws is compared to the Milgram experiment: http://www.isthmus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=58211 http://www.isthmus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=58211 Of course no analogy is perfect, but this one gave me pause.
- mayneack 13y agoObama is pretty stingy on pardons: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobsullum/2013/08/15/barack-the-unmerciful-drug-warrior-why-doesnt-obama-pardon-more-drug-offenders/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobsullum/2013/08/15/barack-th...
- brandonhsiao 13y agoI have no words. None. At all. I'm going to be honest and say that in general I am anything but a compassion. I have every bit of sympathy, however, for (relatively) innocent people being victims of things like bureaucracy, human stupidity, laziness, or sheer scumfuckery. It's hard for me to imagine what was going on in those judges' heads, but chances are it's something I despise. This one was the worst for me: > When he was 22-years-old, Lance Saltzman was charged with breaking into his own home and taking his stepfather’s gun, which his stepfather had shot at his mother and repeatedly used to threaten her. He was convicted of armed burglary and sentenced to prison for the rest of his life.
- refurb 13y agoI'm pretty sure that story is missing some important details. First, how can you be charged with breaking into your own home? It sounds like he broke into his stepfather's home, stole a gun and likely because of his criminal past got the book thrown at him. Breakings law is bad enough, but doing it while armed will get the book thrown at you. I'm not saying mandatory minimums are right, they aren't. Why have judges if you aren't going to let them do the judging. However, these stories don't seem to pass the sniff test. EDIT: A few more important details about Lance.. "In March 2006, when he was 21, Saltzman came home to find his stepfather, Toni Minnick, and his mother, Christina Borg, were in a heated argument. His stepfather took his gun and pointed it at his mother. He fired it near her. His mother called the police. Police seized the gun then returned it to his stepfather days later. There were no charges filed. Again, his stepfather pulled the gun on his mother and threatened to kill his mother. Saltzman decided that his stepfather should no longer have this firearm. He was likely to shoot and kill his mother. In June, he removed the gun from his stepfather’s bedroom and then sold the gun, according to evidence, to “feed his drug addiction.” It was later used in a burglary. His stepfather found the gun missing and notified the police. Police found the gun “in the possession of the young man who had committed the burglary.” Saltzman was then charged with “armed burglary, grand theft of a firearm, and being a felon in possession of a firearm—all for breaking into his own home and taking his stepfather’s gun.” Police also found cocaine in his car and he was charged with possession of cocaine."
- codezero 13y agoI felt like the title here was misleading. They weren't sentenced to "death," as in, given a death sentence, they were sentenced to life in prison, which in some cases means they will die in prison, this is pretty different, though no less a tragedy.
- Mithaldu 13y agoNot some cases, all cases, as it's a life sentence without parole, meaning they can behave all they want in prison, they are never coming out, period. I think it's clear why this is just as good as a death sentence.
- codezero 13y agoI agree but just as good as is not the same as. Death sentence is a very specific thing.
- e12e 13y ago"(...) we found out that seven out of every ten black men behind jail, and most of the men behind jail are black Seven out of every ten black men never went to the ninth grade Didn't have 50 dollars and hadn't had 100 for a month when they went to jail So the poor and the ignorant go to jail while the rich go to San Clemente" -- We beg your pardon America, Gil Scott-Heron from the album The First Minute of a New Day (1975) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDCfEkopryo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDCfEkopryo
- clarky07 13y agoAm I the only one here not seeing this as propaganda with nicely worded articles masking a lot of the reality here? Some of them seem a little unreasonable I'll agree, but lets go through a few of these: "taking a wallet from a hotel room" - we blame it on the court appointed lawyer. He's already been convicted and sent to jail twice for burglary and he continues to break into other peoples places and steal their stuff. Poor guy just took a wallet from those rich vacationing golfers. Screw that. If I was there I'd be scared to death. How many times do we let him keep doing this. Stop doing it stupid. "stealing tools from a tool shed" - oh he was just riding along. sure he was. already been convicted multiple times for burglary. The fact that he desperately misses his children does not make him less guilty of continuing to break into other peoples places and taking their things. Stop doing that stupid. "borrowing a co-workers truck" - i think there is clearly more to this story. generally speaking, people don't normally drive other people's trucks 3 states away without letting them know. If it really was harmless, i'd expect the other guy to not press charges or testify on his behalf. Hey guys, it was just a misunderstanding I thought someone else took it. Also, "inadvertently killing someone" is a really nice way of saying he beat the shit out of someone in a fight and the guy died. Perhaps some of these don't deserve life, but I don't really have that much of a problem with it. Maybe we could lower it to 20-30 years, but I have no problems with escalating penalties. If you are a productive member of society this isn't a problem. These mini-articles are all worded as if these people didn't do anything wrong and just made a tiny mistake this one time and now they are in prison forever. Not the case. Most of them made pretty big mistakes, and they made them repeatedly.
- Mithaldu 13y agoThere's a principle in justice: A punishment fitting the crime. As the document points out, people who raped or murdered, sometimes more than once, can leave prison after 5-15 years, depending on behavior. Meanwhile those people listed will never be able to leave, even if they spend 50 years with impeccable and absolitely perfect behavior.
- clarky07 13y agoCan I ask where the document states that? Ctrl-F doesn't seem to find the word rape and says nothing about 5-15 years. That being said, I am not for anyone convicted of rape or murder being let out after 5-15 years. Being ok with someone convicted repeatedly of things being sentenced to long terms does not mean I want short terms for even more serious crimes. Feel free to argue for longer terms for rape and murder. Unlikely to find too much dissension. This article on the other hand is for shorter terms for different crimes. The two things don't REALLY have anything to do with one another.
- drawkbox 13y agoIf there are filters like archaic three strikes laws to take out human decision making on repeat offenses, there should be sanity filters on the other end. Laws that say noone, ever, should serve more than X amount of years for non-violent crimes and that is probably or should be a low number, single digit. Life for non-violence is very sad as a society. I am against prison or jail for any non-violent offense beyond fines or 'outpatient' like corrections, they cost much less and might actually help. They keep the individual contributing and don't subject people to a further life of crime locking them up, especially drug offenses when it is really most likely an illness or a non-issue. If, when they gave a sentence, they reported the projected cost of that sentencing maybe some of this would change? Things to try to help this: 1) Create common sense filters for sentencing so non-violent criminals or repeat offenses serve no more than x amount of years for a crime or remove jail/prison for non-violence altogether. 2) When sentencing is handed down, the projected cost of that sentence should also be read with the sentence except in extreme cases of violent sentencing. All non-violent sentencing should have a price right next to it so people understand what it really means. i.e. caught with a small amount of drugs = 10 years * 30k per year = 300,000 to put this person away for nothing. Right after that it lists their projected income and loss in taxes. Then a net benefit total which in this case is probably around 500k of economic value for this one offense. Stupid events like this wouldn't happen if we changed this: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/video-shows-man-dying-jail-cell-food-allergy-guards-article-1.1509408 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/video-shows-man-dyi... Technology changing society is another side to this. In the past, laws were not only there to dissuade people from doing undesirable behavior but were also more lax and harder to get caught. Nowadays everything is tracked and aggressive laws are now problematic because it isn't just a dissuading factor anymore it is a certainty. If there is something that probably shouldn't be illegal but is based on this past we could be in trouble. So all laws or things like this with non-violence being locked up and a private prison industry run amuck, we need to change drastically soon. People are human and they can mess up, our systems for corrections sometimes mess up the rest of their lives for one momentary lapse of reason.
- edvinbesic 13y agoThe 3 strikes law system seems beyond ridiculous. Not being a US native, does this mean that I can get three tickets for shoplifting and go to jail for life? What about 3 speeding tickets? /genuinely curious
- cmccabe 13y agoLet's try wikipedia: The three-strikes law significantly increases the prison sentences of persons convicted of a felony who have been previously convicted of two or more violent crimes or serious felonies, and limits the ability of these offenders to receive a punishment other than a life sentence. Violent and serious felonies are specifically listed in state laws. Violent offenses include murder, robbery of a residence in which a deadly or dangerous weapon is used, rape and other sex offenses; serious offenses include the same offenses defined as violent offenses, but also include other crimes such as burglary of a residence and assault with intent to commit a robbery or murder. So, since speeding is not a felony, it has no relevance here. Shoplifting might be a felony, but it would only invoke three strikes if you already had two prior felonies which also happened to be violent. By the way, I'm not defending three-strikes laws, just describing them. I think they are a bad idea. I also think the ACLU is whitewashing the records of a lot of the people involved here.
- zaroth 13y agoIf the judge simply orders a sentence below the minimum, what happens? While the Government can appeal the sentence, then it comes to the next judge up the line to stand up for justice. For example, California's 3-strike law counts non-violent felonies, which sweeps up a lot of criminals into 25 year sentences that they don't deserve. "The California law originally gave judges no discretion in setting prison terms for three strikes offenders. However, the California Supreme Court ruled, in 1996, that judges, in the interest of justice, could ignore prior convictions in determining whether an offender qualified for a three strikes sentence." [1] But these so called "mandatory" sentences are not actually that, it's just that most judges simply don't have the guts to stand up for justice. A judge can use their discretion in setting sentences, but then can be challenged if Government can show the sentence is unreasonable. While following the guidelines is presumed reasonable, simply not following the guidelines is not presumed unreasonable. Lois Forer was a judge in Philadelphia facing just such a decision, and he explains the process better than I can [2]. In the end, the man he tried to save was resentenced by another judge to serve the balance of the "mandatory minimum" five years. This is a system which is ultimately perpetuated by the judiciary. I don't blame the legislature for enacting laws that get them re-elected. I do blame the judges for letting a sentencing law unjustly destroy some peoples lives. [1] - http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Three+Strikes+Laws http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Three+Strikes+... [2] - http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Justice+by+the+numbers%3B+mandatory+sentencing+drove+me+from+the+bench.-a012129669 http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Justice+by+the+numbers%3B+mand...
- skyraider 13y agoA few points: - Many former judges are prosecutors. Prosecutors are trained to get the maximum 'sustainable' sentence. This means looking at what the law says and enforcing it. Fault: legislature. - If the law says that sentences should or must be X long, sentences are going to be around X long. Outside of the 3 strikes system and the California Supreme Court's ruling, how is this the judiciary's fault? There is a severe lack of empathy among the public, legislators, and in the judiciary for sure, but the legislators passed the laws. - How much, really, does sentence length have to do with re-election? Maybe a few really informed voters on either side will vote on the sentencing issue only but I really doubt this.
- yetanotherphd 13y agoThis really shows the unjustness of "three strikes" laws. There is nothing magical about committing three crimes. In my opinion, sentences should reflect the crime you actually committed an not much else.
- tshile 13y agoWait, are we actually supposed to get worked up over this? The ACLU so clearly tip toed while writing the descriptions of these cases as to clearly walk a line between lying about the case and giving us the context needed to understand why these people are in jail for life. "Patrick had no violent criminal history and had never served a single day in a Department of Corrections facility" - Right, but he obviously had a drug problem since he did NA in prison and probably got in trouble previously, just not enough to go to the Department Of Corrections facility (what his crimes and punishments were are left as an exercise to the reader) The other stories have similar issues. Blame it on the abusive and threatening boyfriend, not the previous drug convictions and a three strikes law. Life in prison for borrowing a truck from a friend that accidentally reported it stolen? Look, innocent people get in trouble for things they didn't do. Not innocent people get in trouble for things they didn't do, but were just in the wrong place at the wrong time due to the other things that they did do. It's an unfortunate part of the system and I'm all for things that minimize overcharging and punishing innocent people. But anyone who can't read between the lines on these is either a sap or just believing what they want to. They even led into it with a statistic about race to soften you up. There are three strikes laws for a reason. There's massive amounts of context missing from these. It's a shame, I generally like the ACLU and what they do, but this is awful.
- eaurouge 13y agoThree strikes on drug convictions is unfair - especially given the disparity in sentencing for crack cocain vs. other drugs. Do you have any idea how many privileged celebrities would be in jail (some for life) if drug crimes were enforced fairly and uniformly?
- tshile 13y agoSo for drug convictions it's unfair? possession or distribution? what about manufacturing? is the crime for possession change depending on amount? what about the type of drug? i think the way our country approaches the issue of drugs is not only pointless but down right dumb. about as dumb as breaking the law 3 times when you know that there's a three strikes rule on the books. i just don't have sympathy for people that can't learn from their mistakes. these laws are in place for a reason, these people knew they were in place, and now we're all supposed to feel bad for them about their decisions making? sorry, i don't buy it. as for celebrities, i don't think we can really model the entire country around how they're treated. i'd prefer they be treated like everyone else too, but money buys lawyers and not all lawyers are created equally.
- brohoolio 13y agoSounds fucking expensive.
- beloch 13y agoThe U.S. and Canada have very similar cultures, so comparisons here have some meaning. The U.S.'s per capita incarceration rate is 6.28 times Canada's [1] and the per capita number of police officers is 1.26 times higher in the U.S.[2]. However, the intentional homicide rate of the U.S. is 2.94 times that of Canada[3]. Certain types of offenses (e.g. drug offenses) are higher in Canada, but the violent crime rate is lower. It's worth asking what is going on here. I'm no expert on law and punishment, but it seems like the U.S. is throwing more resources at the problem (perhaps prodded by for-profit prison lobbyists) and getting poorer results. The cultures are too similar to explain this away by saying Canadians are inherently less violent. As Canada considers harsher prison sentences and expanding prison capacity, it's imperative to understand if this will produce the intended results. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcerat... [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_police_officers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_... [3]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona...
- fleitz 13y agoI worked in the poorest postal code in Canada (http://goo.gl/maps/hzKct http://goo.gl/maps/hzKct here's how bad it gets, this intersection is called Wastings and Pain by many), it's a walk in the park compared to the bad neighbourhoods of many US cities. I've never felt like I was in the 3rd world in Canada, there are parts of the US that make you wonder... We generally take care of our people and don't use the prison system as part of the social safety net to the degree the US does. Ironically, in Montreal in the winter, you pretty much have to kill someone to get sent to jail if you're homeless. Also, it's not so much Canada as Stephen Harper.
- beloch 13y agoI'm afraid I have to call BS on the ol' "Blame Harper" schtick. The Conservatives, Liberals, and NDP all have exactly the same platforms and would likely be doing exactly the same thing if in power. Canada's political parties have stopped running on the merit of policy and are running purely on the basis of personality. It's really starting to annoy me.
- unabridged 13y agoIn an effort to be more civilized we have inadvertently come up with more barbaric punishments than the past. Locking someone away for life for stealing is worse than cutting off a hand or tattooing the forehead.
- mililani 13y agoIf you guys think this is a travesty, look up felony murder. I think it's unconstitutional, and people have been sentenced to life because of it.
- mattsfrey 13y agoIn general this only applies to dangerous or violent felonies. In Colorado for instance, the applicable felonies are: arson, robbery, burglary, kidnapping, sexual assault, or a class 3 felony sexual assault on a child If somebody or a group of people are participating in these activities and somebody ends up dying, they should certainly be held liable for murder due to the reckless and malicious nature of the crimes being committed.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- JungleGymSam 13y agoAm I understanding this right? These people have been given extreme sentences because the law requires it? If that's true why are the judges in these cases not being called out for not protesting these kinds of convictions?
- agildehaus 13y agoHere's a woman who was sentenced to life in prison for having a 13 year old touch her breast. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-xEdbEubjs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-xEdbEubjs
- noonespecial 13y agoThe takeaway? If you're considering a life of crime, be a freakin super-villain because they're going to sentence you like one anyway.
- avenger123 13y ago+1, that's another angle to it for sure.
- noonespecial 13y agoWell, we seem to be going all out defending the other amendments these days. I guess its time to add the 8th to our efforts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United_...
- ScottBurson 13y agoAdditionally, I don't understand why mandatory sentences aren't considered a blatant violation of the Constitutional separation of powers. Was it really the Framers' intent that the judiciary's traditional sentencing discretion could be overruled in this way? Maximum sentences are one thing, but Draconian minimums are quite something else. I wish some judges would simply refuse to impose them when they are obviously unjust, even at the cost of their judgeships. And yes, if the Eighth Amendment helps them do that, by all means let them invoke it. I gather that at the federal level, minimum sentences are now once again considered recommendations; but that hasn't filtered down to the states yet.
- whiddershins 13y agoOne thing that disturbs me, after reading the comments here, and after hearing attitudes expressed by people in general: I think normal citizens massively underestimate how harsh these sentences are. Look around at your life and picture how much damage might be done by just a 6 month stint in jail. You would likely lose your job, you might lose your house, your kids. Even a month in jail would be a serious bummer for most of the people posting here. Now, think, really picture, what a 3 year sentence would do. How hard it would be to recover from losing those years. Now picture a 5 year, 7 year, 10 year, 15 year sentence. There is a reason Norway generally restricts its sentences to 21 years for even the most heinous crimes. The sentencing here in the US is truly draconian. It only seems proportional because we are measuring relative to what is already going on, so in context this stuff seems "not that bad." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment_in_Norway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment_in_Norway
- Unfor1932 13y agoMy best friend's brotℍer makes $80 every ℍour on working on ℍis laptop from ℍome. ℍe ℍas been without a job for 7 months but last month his pay cℍeck with big fat bonus was over $19900 just working on the laptop for a few ℍours. Go to tℍis web site where you can read more>>www.ℬlue78.ℭℴm
- Kiro 13y agoI don't understand this. For what reason are first-time offenders sentenced to lifetime?
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- mercurial 13y agoIt's pretty disappointing to see so many comments praising what most people here would describe as "absurdly disproportionate sentences" and "probably something out of North Korea". Especially when the same people were up in arms not long ago about Aaron Schwartz.
- jimmytidey 13y agoFrom a European perspective some of these things might not even being custodial. European countries don't suffer higher crime rates because of their more lenient punishments. I think the problem is that on a manifesto a three strikes proposal looks very good especially for those concerned about law and order, the reality is these horrible injustices..
- hrktb 13y ago> He did not want to sentence her to die in prison, but his "hands [were] tied" because of her prior convictions for minor drug offenses three years earlier This part struck me. There was grellas' comment on the Google vs Authors Guild thread were the judge decided to go against the 'mechanical' application of the law and took time to come up with a sensible interpretation to handle the case. It's crushing to think about a mother of two in prison for life for a crime the judge itself thought wasn't worth the sentence, potentially leaving her kids in the hands of an abusive husband (I hope they got sheltered at least)
- smegel 13y agoI'm blown away by this. I really thought three strikes laws only applied when the earlier crimes were extremely serious (basically murder or close). Really drives home the idea that in some ways, America really isn't like the rest of the western world.
- jmadsen 13y agoI think at the root of this is a very prevalent attitude among a many people in America toward "not letting people get away with things" I don't think you can look at this in a vacuum - you need to see these punishments as simply another manifestation of this attitude. This is not a "this group vs. that group" thing; you may find this among "fire and brimstone" Democrats just as often as your "Limburgh Republicans". I've often said the difference between these groups is: given 100 people asking for a free meal, the liberal will take satisfaction in feeding 99 hungry ones; this type of conservative will fret over the one person who "got away with" getting a free lunch he could have afforded himself. (Side rant: these people tend to be among the loudest Bible-thumpers, and think "the Good Lord helps those.." is an actual biblical passage.) Rehabilitation as a way of dealing with miscreants doesn't work in the US for the main part because there is too large a segment of the American populace who feel that these various programs equate to giving them a reward for bad behavior. Why should they (the convicted) get a free hand with job placement when no one else is "being coddled"? (The wonderful quote "born on third base and thinks he hit a triple" always comes to mind here.) So you see, Americans understand perfectly well all the logical and economic aspects of this issue. The fact is, it is built into our culture to punish people. We get satisfaction from it. We're not after what's best for the country, we're after revenge. It's ugly, but I've been around for many years & I stand by that statement.
- bsandbox 13y agoI think people's sense of personal safety is a bigger driver than revenge. In general, people want a hard line on anything that impacts their sense of personal safety. In order to feel safe, people want punishment to prevent others from committing the same crime. (Of course the flaw in this thinking is that punishment does not always prevent criminals from committing a crime).
- rlanday 13y agoIf you lock up a repeat offender, you can at least prevent that person from committing more crimes.
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- aquadrop 13y agoI don't understand how mad those judges should be to send those people in jail for life... Life imprisonment for that... It's like the ultimate punishment (because death penalty isn't worth it) for evilest people. Or is it mad laws? I understand when two adults are sentenced for life because they were torturing and killing random homeless people just for fun (real example from my city). They are very dangerous to the society and should be kept away forever, that I understand. But I don't see how driving a company's truck is an immense menace for the society.
- marvin 13y agoWow. This is incredibly fascinating and frightening. I didn't believe that things were nearly this bad in the US...and that's saying something, seeing as I am very critical of lots of things that go on these days.
- DominikR 13y agoIf I had to choose from facing life in prison (and maybe being raped there) and sharia punishment for stealing someones wallet I'd probably prefer having my hand amputated. That's how irrational and absurd this law is, the Taliban look like humanists compared to that.
- eliben 13y agoThe alternative has to be asked too. How many crimes have been avoided so far because past felons fear of committing that 3rd crime.
- MarcusBrutus 13y ago"After serving two years in prison during his mid-twenties for inadvertently killing someone during a bar fight, Aaron Jones turned his life around ...". To be honest, at that point I kind of wondered whether I was reading a parody piece or not. The 3-strikes laws are not totally irrational provided the legislators carefully decide what counts as a "strike". Even so, "inadvertently" killing someone during a bar fight should count as a strike in my book. Granted, having such laws in a legal environment where almost everything is a felony or can be charged as such, results in great many wasted lives and a huge societal cost. But it's the felony character of some of those underlying offences that should be questioned, not the three-strike principle per se.
- m_mueller 13y agoBecause of that anchors bar I first thought, watching that video is what got someone behind bars for life - 'what, has America come this far already?'.
- julesie 13y agoI would encourage anyone who hasn't already, to watch the brilliant documentary 'The House I Live In' by Eugene Jarecki. It's available on Netflix (in the UK at least). It follows the War on Drugs in the USA. As an outsider (Irish living in London) I found it genuinely eyeopening on a topic I knew next to nothing about. For example did you know that the only difference between cocaine and crack cocaine is the addition of baking powder and heat. Although the later will get you 100 times the sentence of the former. There are 19 year olds being put away for the rest of their lives for the possession of a few grams of this stuff. I don't care what stand you take on the legalisation/criminalisation of drugs, that is insane! Instead of trying to reduce the rate of reoffending once released, it seems many states go out of their way to marginalise convicts so that virtually no law abiding avenues of employment remain for them. Talk about a vicious circle. That's not evening taking into account the effect of incarcerated parents has on the generation that follows.
- everyone 13y agoI think the interesting discussion point here is this.. In the US the prison system is a huge, profitable and influential industry. As the pharma industry will encourage doctors to prescribe their medicines the prison industry will encourage and lobby the legal system to increase the amount of prisoners.
- siculars 13y agoI hate to say it but: Don't go to the Southern parts of the US. Don't go to Texas. Don't go to Florida. Don't go to the Carolina's. Certainly don't go to Mississippi, Alabama or Louisiana. If you live there now, leave.
- nsxwolf 13y agoACLU doesn't understand the difference between burglary and theft, apparently. Breaking into an occupied hotel room and stealing a wallet is hardly best described as "taking a wallet". Burglary is a terrifying experience that can leave the victims with life long PTSD. This man is lucky he wasn't immediately shot to death by the occupants. Every day he spends in prison alive is still a gift after that.
- shire 13y agoThis is sad, put your self in their shoe. It's hard to imagine a life like this. I wish things could change in this world and humans cared for one another.
- w_t_payne 13y agoWell, gerrymandering is such a common practice in the US anyway, no reason it should not extend to this...
- MikeTLive 13y agothree times you have been caught doing something we don't like. you will now be banished from the planet and into this concrete and steel facility. a facility whose operation is a business and the more residents the more the business makes. tell me. why would a business ever want to not have a guaranteed permanent paying member?
- MikeTLive 13y agoif prisons were by law NEVER private entities, and instead ALWAYS funded by and of the society from which the people interned were taken from, and that the cost of housing a person would not end with their life, would we be so quick to lock so many up forever? solve the problem that led to the person doing what we do not like. unless that problem is unique to this specific individual, removing the person will not stop the problem manifest on another individual. we here are all smarter than this.
- scottdw2 13y agoThis bothers me. I know this is a bit of a 'libertarian fantasy', but I think the constitution ought to be amended to contain something like the following: 1) No person shall be subject to any criminal penalty exceeding one year of incarceration or $300 in fines for any non violent offense relating solely to the possession, sales, distribution, manufacture, or purchase of an intoxicating substance. 2) The purpose of this article is to limit the scope of criminal penalties that may be applied to "non violent drug offenders". It's provisions shall be interpreted with such intent in mind. 3) This article applies to all jurisdictions with the Several States, the United States, and any territories or possessions thereof 4) Any forfeiture of assets resulting from the conviction of a "non violent drug crime" must be limited to: a) The intoxicating substances constituting the "core element of the crime" b) Any asset materially and predominantly used for the manufacture, production, and possession of such substances. Provided that such seized assets do not also have reasonable, fundamental, predominant, and legally authorized uses. In such case any seizure must be subject to the provisions of "eminent domain". 5) Congress, or the states, acting within the provisions otherwise authorized by this constitution, may adopt measures to ensure assets actually used in the commission of a "non violent drug crime", when not seized in accordance with this constitution, are only used in accordance to lawfully authorized purchases.
- zanny 13y ago> for any non violent offense relating solely to the possession, sales, distribution, manufacture, or purchase of an intoxicating substance. I find it somewhat ridiculous as a species we even consider writing into the absolute law of the land anything to do with growing or selling plants that aren't fatally toxic. And even then, you don't need to say "don't sell toxic plants" you just need to say "don't hurt or kill other people with toxic plants". Or in general. And the point is the general - don't be specific to intoxicating substance. Better yet, ask why the fuck someone is in jail without committing some violence. Implicit to a crime being nonviolent means all parties engaged (including those unknowingly, because committing fraud can still be a felony because you are harming the unknowing parties you actively lie to and deceive to benefit from). If all parties are privy to something, you really need to sit back and ask why the hell you are throwing people in jail for participating it. If there are no losers without bringing police and prison sentencing into the picture, you are probably doing it wrong. But I really hope something like this isn't worthy of a constitutional amendment. If anything, you should seek out and fix the direct empowerment in said document that enables rampant abuses of the legal system like this in the first place. Or you need to ask how the hell enough of a majority of your citizenry support it that may call into question the functioning of democracy, because if there is nothing wrong with the system then the people are to blame.
- MrBra 13y agoI hope someone who has the power to change things or at least partially do so will read this article and do something.
- tbarbugli 13y agoLife is undervalued in US, it is also interesting to see how these extreme measures have no effect in crime reduction.