7 ms·

Time, quiet mind, slow mornings, rest without guilt, calm and boring days - are all the same thing - escape from being busy. This assumes being busy is common,

by zkmon 12d ago

Time, quiet mind, slow mornings, rest without guilt, calm and boring days - are all the same thing - escape from being busy. This assumes being busy is common, which is actually not that common for an age of 60+. The real luxury, for any age, in general, is in not having dependencies and needs. The need to impress someone, the need to know every ugly news from around globe, the need to read everything and be knowledgeable, need to stay connected, need to be smart, the need to travel and see places, need to taste foods from around the world, need to have many friends, need to be loved by someone, and need to have more money and things. Those are dependencies that make you weak. Lack of those means you won't be happy. Luxury is being happy without having any of those.

mrec 12d ago
Beautifully put, and definitely resonated with me as someone who entered mostly-contentedly-frugal retirement a few years back. One thing you didn't mention is the need to feel useful in some way; would you consider that a weakness too? Is it covered by "rest without guilt"? It's the bit I still have some trouble with.
- mck- 12d ago
  Even just asking that question implies self-judgment and a need to “do the right thing”. Perhaps just be, and that is enough.
  - brazukadev 12d ago
    > Perhaps just be, and that is enough. Don't be evil tho
- WJW 12d ago
  Not OP, but there's a nuance. In general there's nothing wrong with wanting to be useful, but it is definitely possible to take it too far. If you get sick and need care, you are typically not "useful". But that doesn't mean you instantly lose all value. I've had colleagues who would feel almost physically ill if they were somehow not able to respond to an incident somewhere, even if they weren't even on call at that point. Almost all of them burned out at some point and were no longer able to respond to anything, even if they'd wanted to. That's not healthy, and it weakens everyone in the long run. Resting without guilt comes from the realization that you cannot keep the world running all by yourself. Let others pick up the work when you need a rest, so you can shelter them when they are down.
- hehimself 12d ago
  That is quite opposite of weakness. Your entire life is exercising power of your mind. What is left if you take it away? Do the thing you love and you will find your happiness.
polpenn 12d ago
I agree with some of what you listed here but a few I think are critical to being human. What's the point of not having needs? Desires are what makes us human. I have kids and family and friends that love me and them in return but I don't believe that makes me weak. In fact it is the opposite, they give me the strength, confidence, and motivation to power through life. I supoose not having any needs and desires would be an asset for a hitman.
- pmg101 12d ago
  Without them then you wouldn't have strength, confidence or motivation and you wouldn't power through life. But you might be just as happy?
- zkmon 12d ago
  Desires are OK as long as they don't make you unhappy when you can't have them. But that's not usually the case, which means they became crutches, making your happiness to depend on achieving them. As an example, there are places where people don't see electricity as an absolute necessity. Hours of outages everyday go mostly unnoticed. That's lack of strong dependency.
  - flyinglizard 11d ago
    We need purpose, as a species; after all we left the caves for a better life. Desires make us human, the pursuit keep us busy and entertained. There is no passion without wanting, and without passion what is the reason for living?
cm2012 12d ago
It's true that if you lower your expectations enormously that it's easier to hit them.
- WJW 12d ago
  It's also true that if you raise you expectations enough then you will never be able to hit them. Keep in mind that it's not always a case of "shoot for the stars but hit the moon if you miss", sometimes it's "shoot for the stars and suffer crippling burnout for 20 years, after which it's too late to recover to anything meaningful". Being realistic, for all it's boringness, does have advantages.
mathgeek 12d ago
> The real luxury, for any age, in general, is in not having dependencies and needs. Fewer. Everyone will always have some dependencies and needs. Personally, I pity anyone who sees a desire to be loved as a weakness. That’s quite literally a lesson taught as a trope about being a good person vs an evil one.
- zkmon 12d ago
  Being loved is not a weakness. But a strong requirement to be loved is a weakness because that means you don't have strength to be happy without being loved.
  - rhyperior 12d ago
    And that perspective presumes that being loved isn’t a fundamental human need.
  - bluGill 12d ago
    Love is extremely common. It is not particularly much of a weakness because there are plenty of people who will love you. Now, finding that person, or those people, depending on exactly what it means, that could be hard. There are also a lot of people who will abuse your need for love, and so you do have to be careful.
  - ElProlactin 12d ago
    This is actually a sad comment. How did you ever come to believe that wanting to feel loved, which is a fundamental desire (if not "need") for the vast majority of human beings, could ever be construed as a weakness resulting from a lack of "strength"?
    - derf_ 12d ago
      To steel-man their argument, I think what they are trying to describe is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anxious-preoccupied_attachment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anxious-preoccupied_attachment vs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_attachment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_attachment
vkou 12d ago
Are the need to make music, the need to read books, the need to work on and improve myself dependencies that make me weak? Lacking those things is not a luxury. What is a luxury is time. Time is incredibly precious.
cejast 12d ago
I have to regularly travel to rural villages in Asia and the people that live in these places have only the most basic human desires. They barely know what an LLM is let alone interact with them. They're some of the happiest people I've ever met. Of course they'll complain about work or money, and they assume that a Western salary buys me freedom. But they get to live through these luxuries on a daily basis. I'd be lucky to enjoy just one of these in any given week.
- satyrnein 12d ago
  Not to be glib, but I assume you're not quitting your Western job and moving there. So isn't this romanticizing it?
  - cejast 12d ago
    I have my own family dependencies that aren't too keen on the idea of living the village life. Otherwise I'd already be there.
    - ericmcer 11d ago
      I saw a video of a guy in his 50s living in a small city in Vietnam. He claimed $800/mo was more than enough, and $1000/mo would let him live lavishly. He just did the math and as soon as his predicted months of life left * 1000 < savings he pulled the trigger. I think about that a lot because I have already hit that number easily, my family would definitely suffer though and not be into it.
      - pzo 11d ago
        There is a reason that South East Asia is popular for digital nomads and for retired expats. Thailand and Vietnam have still very affordable places if you avoid tourist traps. I would recommend first trying some easier destination like chiang mai or danang (if first time in asia), staying for 2 months (vacation/workation) and seeing if you still like it.
  - 12d ago
deleted 12d ago
[deleted]
anon3949494 12d ago
I agree with the gist what you're saying, like ditching the ego, the status chasing, etc. But dragging stuff like staying connected, being knowledgable, enjoying good food, and travel is where this goes a bit too far. A rock has zero dependencies, but nobody wants to be a rock.
- mrhenio 12d ago
  [dead]
- Gerard0 12d ago
  This! I want new art, books, music. Yes, I want them. And I want delicious coffee. That's one of the reasons this life is worth living!
- tonyedgecombe 11d ago
  I have mixed feelings about travel. Simply because so much of it seems to be about status chasing. Then you have the whole commercial world trying to convince you it is important. You never see them suggesting you take a ten mile hike from your front door.
j45 12d ago
Nicely said. Having dependencies or needs is one thing, having them managed for relative minimal impact on one's time might be another way to look at it for some.
nradov 12d ago
Why would I want a slow morning? That sounds miserable, like the opposite of luxury.
- phoghed 12d ago
  Yeah why would anyone want to chill, I want my boss shaking me awake at 5am shoving adderall into my mouth
  - jjav 11d ago
    > I want my boss shaking me awake at 5am shoving adderall into my mouth Nicely expressed.
ben_w 12d ago
> The real luxury, for any age, in general, is in not having dependencies and needs. The need to impress someone, the need to know every ugly news from around globe, the need to read everything and be knowledgeable, need to stay connected, need to be smart, the need to travel and see places, need to taste foods from around the world, need to have many friends, need to be loved by someone, and need to have more money and things. This echoes with my (limited) understanding of Buddhism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths#The_Four_Truths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths#The_Four_Tru...
hbarka 11d ago
Just give me a place with safe dense public transportation, walkable places to eat, and nature to relax.
- criddell 11d ago
  Just give me some land outside of the city, where I can’t really see or hear my neighbors, where I have enough space for an enormous garden, lots of native plants for the butterflies and bees, and a giant workshop. Starry skies at night shared with my wife and a dog or two. And since I have the space, maybe a sauna and cold plunge would be nice. You know, stretch goals.
  - hbarka 11d ago
    I did this for a few years but it got lonely. Now I draw energy from being around people, and walking to do things has lowered my blood pressure and weight. Subways and regional trains also allow me to live a larger radius.
- retired 11d ago
  Haven't used public transport in a long time. I used it to commute in the past but stopped using it during COVID. Can't say I miss it. Prefer to just leave when I want, go where I want and stay there as long as I want. All while not enjoying other peoples music and smell or waiting at a platform for ages.
  - deleted 11d ago
    [deleted]
  - OkB00mer 11d ago
    Ok boomer
    - retired 11d ago
      Millennial actually.
  - 11d ago
ericmcer 11d ago
That is a nice list for someone in their 20s with no responsibilities. Once you get a partner, kids, elderly parents, pets, mortgage, etc. you won't be worrying about your needs anymore trust me.
- teaearlgraycold 11d ago
  As someone in my 30s I'm not sure I need the things on your list. Can't escape the aging of my parents but I'm lucky they will be able to financially support themselves through retirement. If I do add complications to my life I'll be careful to do my best ensuring it's a net benefit to my stability and peace.
  - pzo 11d ago
    yeah some people are very orthodox and think having a partner, kids, pets, mortgage is a must. The easiest exceptions is being a monk or priest and they are fine and society accept it.
- glouwbug 11d ago
  Age has nothing to do with it. Those were your life style choices and they now impact you for the rest of your life. You could well have done the opposite and thrown all your earnings into the SP500, rented for cheap near your parents, traveled the world, and have no partner and/or multiple partners
khazhoux 11d ago
So true. I know a couple, retired, who are constantly traveling to Europe and Japan. When they’re not traveling, they spend all their time reading or visiting with their kids and grandkids. I often want to tell them: You fools! You’ll never find happiness if all you do is give in to these weaknesses!
glouwbug 11d ago
You can decide not to do any of these things. In fact, not wanting _anything_ is 100% within your control. It's literally what the stoics built the entirety of their philosophy on: aversion to pain and pleasure and redirection to moral choice
coldtea 11d ago
>Time, quiet mind, slow mornings, rest without guilt, calm and boring days - are all the same thing - escape from being busy. This assumes being busy is common, which is actually not that common for an age of 60+. If there's anything 60+ are starting to not have enough of is time. As you get older time is running out. Not free time - time in general, as in life expectancy. Regular free time can be elusive too if you're still forced to work, which can be the case until your mid to late 60s, a common pension age globally or if your savings have been wiped out. "Slow mornings, rest without guilt, calm and boring days" too are not just "escape from being busy", but also being away from all kinds of bad situations: war, social turmoil, family drama, spouse dying, and others, that are not just about not being busy with work. Being 60+ might help with being busy (if you're retiring), but not with those. >The real luxury, for any age, in general, is in not having dependencies and needs. The need to impress someone, the need to know every ugly news from around globe, the need to read everything and be knowledgeable, need to stay connected, need to be smart, the need to travel and see places, need to taste foods from around the world, need to have many friends, need to be loved by someone, and need to have more money and things. That's sort of true, but too much of that can also mean one is just a jaded, burnt out person who doesn't care about anything and has no joy anymore.
throwaway2037 11d ago
> need to taste foods from around the world Since the 2000s, in most highly developed countries, you are spoiled for choice if you live within 20km of a medium-/large-sized city. You don't need to travel more than a few km to enjoy cuisine from outside your region. > need to be loved by someone Jesus: Tell me you are a man without telling me you are a man. Few women I know would ever say something like that.
- throw-the-towel 11d ago
  I wonder how relationships even form then. (It's possible that they don't, yeah.)
hyperpallium2 11d ago
IANAP but any philosophy based on absence is a nihilism

by zkmon 12d ago

mrec 12d ago

Beautifully put, and definitely resonated with me as someone who entered mostly-contentedly-frugal retirement a few years back. One thing you didn't mention is the need to feel useful in some way; would you consider that a weakness too? Is it covered by "rest without guilt"? It's the bit I still have some trouble with.

mck- 12d ago
Even just asking that question implies self-judgment and a need to “do the right thing”. Perhaps just be, and that is enough.
- brazukadev 12d ago
  > Perhaps just be, and that is enough. Don't be evil tho
WJW 12d ago
Not OP, but there's a nuance. In general there's nothing wrong with wanting to be useful, but it is definitely possible to take it too far. If you get sick and need care, you are typically not "useful". But that doesn't mean you instantly lose all value. I've had colleagues who would feel almost physically ill if they were somehow not able to respond to an incident somewhere, even if they weren't even on call at that point. Almost all of them burned out at some point and were no longer able to respond to anything, even if they'd wanted to. That's not healthy, and it weakens everyone in the long run. Resting without guilt comes from the realization that you cannot keep the world running all by yourself. Let others pick up the work when you need a rest, so you can shelter them when they are down.
hehimself 12d ago
That is quite opposite of weakness. Your entire life is exercising power of your mind. What is left if you take it away? Do the thing you love and you will find your happiness.

polpenn 12d ago

I agree with some of what you listed here but a few I think are critical to being human. What's the point of not having needs? Desires are what makes us human. I have kids and family and friends that love me and them in return but I don't believe that makes me weak. In fact it is the opposite, they give me the strength, confidence, and motivation to power through life. I supoose not having any needs and desires would be an asset for a hitman.

pmg101 12d ago
Without them then you wouldn't have strength, confidence or motivation and you wouldn't power through life. But you might be just as happy?
zkmon 12d ago
Desires are OK as long as they don't make you unhappy when you can't have them. But that's not usually the case, which means they became crutches, making your happiness to depend on achieving them. As an example, there are places where people don't see electricity as an absolute necessity. Hours of outages everyday go mostly unnoticed. That's lack of strong dependency.
- flyinglizard 11d ago
  We need purpose, as a species; after all we left the caves for a better life. Desires make us human, the pursuit keep us busy and entertained. There is no passion without wanting, and without passion what is the reason for living?

cm2012 12d ago

It's true that if you lower your expectations enormously that it's easier to hit them.

WJW 12d ago
It's also true that if you raise you expectations enough then you will never be able to hit them. Keep in mind that it's not always a case of "shoot for the stars but hit the moon if you miss", sometimes it's "shoot for the stars and suffer crippling burnout for 20 years, after which it's too late to recover to anything meaningful". Being realistic, for all it's boringness, does have advantages.

mathgeek 12d ago

> The real luxury, for any age, in general, is in not having dependencies and needs. Fewer. Everyone will always have some dependencies and needs. Personally, I pity anyone who sees a desire to be loved as a weakness. That’s quite literally a lesson taught as a trope about being a good person vs an evil one.

zkmon 12d ago
Being loved is not a weakness. But a strong requirement to be loved is a weakness because that means you don't have strength to be happy without being loved.
- rhyperior 12d ago
  And that perspective presumes that being loved isn’t a fundamental human need.
- bluGill 12d ago
  Love is extremely common. It is not particularly much of a weakness because there are plenty of people who will love you. Now, finding that person, or those people, depending on exactly what it means, that could be hard. There are also a lot of people who will abuse your need for love, and so you do have to be careful.
- ElProlactin 12d ago
  This is actually a sad comment. How did you ever come to believe that wanting to feel loved, which is a fundamental desire (if not "need") for the vast majority of human beings, could ever be construed as a weakness resulting from a lack of "strength"?
  - derf_ 12d ago
    To steel-man their argument, I think what they are trying to describe is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anxious-preoccupied_attachment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anxious-preoccupied_attachment vs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_attachment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_attachment

vkou 12d ago

Are the need to make music, the need to read books, the need to work on and improve myself dependencies that make me weak? Lacking those things is not a luxury. What is a luxury is time. Time is incredibly precious.

cejast 12d ago

I have to regularly travel to rural villages in Asia and the people that live in these places have only the most basic human desires. They barely know what an LLM is let alone interact with them. They're some of the happiest people I've ever met. Of course they'll complain about work or money, and they assume that a Western salary buys me freedom. But they get to live through these luxuries on a daily basis. I'd be lucky to enjoy just one of these in any given week.

satyrnein 12d ago
Not to be glib, but I assume you're not quitting your Western job and moving there. So isn't this romanticizing it?
- cejast 12d ago
  I have my own family dependencies that aren't too keen on the idea of living the village life. Otherwise I'd already be there.
  - ericmcer 11d ago
    I saw a video of a guy in his 50s living in a small city in Vietnam. He claimed $800/mo was more than enough, and $1000/mo would let him live lavishly. He just did the math and as soon as his predicted months of life left * 1000 < savings he pulled the trigger. I think about that a lot because I have already hit that number easily, my family would definitely suffer though and not be into it.
    - pzo 11d ago
      There is a reason that South East Asia is popular for digital nomads and for retired expats. Thailand and Vietnam have still very affordable places if you avoid tourist traps. I would recommend first trying some easier destination like chiang mai or danang (if first time in asia), staying for 2 months (vacation/workation) and seeing if you still like it.
- 12d ago

deleted 12d ago

[deleted]

anon3949494 12d ago

I agree with the gist what you're saying, like ditching the ego, the status chasing, etc. But dragging stuff like staying connected, being knowledgable, enjoying good food, and travel is where this goes a bit too far. A rock has zero dependencies, but nobody wants to be a rock.

mrhenio 12d ago
[dead]
Gerard0 12d ago
This! I want new art, books, music. Yes, I want them. And I want delicious coffee. That's one of the reasons this life is worth living!
tonyedgecombe 11d ago
I have mixed feelings about travel. Simply because so much of it seems to be about status chasing. Then you have the whole commercial world trying to convince you it is important. You never see them suggesting you take a ten mile hike from your front door.

j45 12d ago

Nicely said. Having dependencies or needs is one thing, having them managed for relative minimal impact on one's time might be another way to look at it for some.

nradov 12d ago

Why would I want a slow morning? That sounds miserable, like the opposite of luxury.

phoghed 12d ago
Yeah why would anyone want to chill, I want my boss shaking me awake at 5am shoving adderall into my mouth
- jjav 11d ago
  > I want my boss shaking me awake at 5am shoving adderall into my mouth Nicely expressed.

ben_w 12d ago

> The real luxury, for any age, in general, is in not having dependencies and needs. The need to impress someone, the need to know every ugly news from around globe, the need to read everything and be knowledgeable, need to stay connected, need to be smart, the need to travel and see places, need to taste foods from around the world, need to have many friends, need to be loved by someone, and need to have more money and things. This echoes with my (limited) understanding of Buddhism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths#The_Four_Truths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths#The_Four_Tru...

hbarka 11d ago

Just give me a place with safe dense public transportation, walkable places to eat, and nature to relax.

criddell 11d ago
Just give me some land outside of the city, where I can’t really see or hear my neighbors, where I have enough space for an enormous garden, lots of native plants for the butterflies and bees, and a giant workshop. Starry skies at night shared with my wife and a dog or two. And since I have the space, maybe a sauna and cold plunge would be nice. You know, stretch goals.
- hbarka 11d ago
  I did this for a few years but it got lonely. Now I draw energy from being around people, and walking to do things has lowered my blood pressure and weight. Subways and regional trains also allow me to live a larger radius.
retired 11d ago
Haven't used public transport in a long time. I used it to commute in the past but stopped using it during COVID. Can't say I miss it. Prefer to just leave when I want, go where I want and stay there as long as I want. All while not enjoying other peoples music and smell or waiting at a platform for ages.
- deleted 11d ago
  [deleted]
- OkB00mer 11d ago
  Ok boomer
  - retired 11d ago
    Millennial actually.
- 11d ago

ericmcer 11d ago

That is a nice list for someone in their 20s with no responsibilities. Once you get a partner, kids, elderly parents, pets, mortgage, etc. you won't be worrying about your needs anymore trust me.

teaearlgraycold 11d ago
As someone in my 30s I'm not sure I need the things on your list. Can't escape the aging of my parents but I'm lucky they will be able to financially support themselves through retirement. If I do add complications to my life I'll be careful to do my best ensuring it's a net benefit to my stability and peace.
- pzo 11d ago
  yeah some people are very orthodox and think having a partner, kids, pets, mortgage is a must. The easiest exceptions is being a monk or priest and they are fine and society accept it.
glouwbug 11d ago
Age has nothing to do with it. Those were your life style choices and they now impact you for the rest of your life. You could well have done the opposite and thrown all your earnings into the SP500, rented for cheap near your parents, traveled the world, and have no partner and/or multiple partners

khazhoux 11d ago

So true. I know a couple, retired, who are constantly traveling to Europe and Japan. When they’re not traveling, they spend all their time reading or visiting with their kids and grandkids. I often want to tell them: You fools! You’ll never find happiness if all you do is give in to these weaknesses!

glouwbug 11d ago

You can decide not to do any of these things. In fact, not wanting _anything_ is 100% within your control. It's literally what the stoics built the entirety of their philosophy on: aversion to pain and pleasure and redirection to moral choice

coldtea 11d ago

>Time, quiet mind, slow mornings, rest without guilt, calm and boring days - are all the same thing - escape from being busy. This assumes being busy is common, which is actually not that common for an age of 60+. If there's anything 60+ are starting to not have enough of is time. As you get older time is running out. Not free time - time in general, as in life expectancy. Regular free time can be elusive too if you're still forced to work, which can be the case until your mid to late 60s, a common pension age globally or if your savings have been wiped out. "Slow mornings, rest without guilt, calm and boring days" too are not just "escape from being busy", but also being away from all kinds of bad situations: war, social turmoil, family drama, spouse dying, and others, that are not just about not being busy with work. Being 60+ might help with being busy (if you're retiring), but not with those. >The real luxury, for any age, in general, is in not having dependencies and needs. The need to impress someone, the need to know every ugly news from around globe, the need to read everything and be knowledgeable, need to stay connected, need to be smart, the need to travel and see places, need to taste foods from around the world, need to have many friends, need to be loved by someone, and need to have more money and things. That's sort of true, but too much of that can also mean one is just a jaded, burnt out person who doesn't care about anything and has no joy anymore.

throwaway2037 11d ago

> need to taste foods from around the world Since the 2000s, in most highly developed countries, you are spoiled for choice if you live within 20km of a medium-/large-sized city. You don't need to travel more than a few km to enjoy cuisine from outside your region. > need to be loved by someone Jesus: Tell me you are a man without telling me you are a man. Few women I know would ever say something like that.

throw-the-towel 11d ago
I wonder how relationships even form then. (It's possible that they don't, yeah.)

hyperpallium2 11d ago

IANAP but any philosophy based on absence is a nihilism