9 ms·

Microsoft Needs Windows Lite

146 points by pbohun 3mo ago

flanked-evergl 3mo ago
[flagged]
- theandrewbailey 3mo ago
  I'd love a currently supported, slop-free Windows XP or 7, hell even 10.
greenavocado 3mo ago
Already addressed in my previous comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48675898 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48675898
rich_sasha 3mo ago
This is great - and who would then buy the "full fat" Windows? Who wants the product that works, but also with bloatware, spyware, slower, more expensive and taking up more resources?
stogot 3mo ago
Microsoft needs a “secure” windows lite, and a “secure” azure, and a “secure” token vending service, and a GitHub that is highly available. It has none of these today
VCFundedGenYer 3mo ago
This article feels like ignorance. The best "Windows Lite" is a Linux distro with VSCode, .NET, PowerShell, etc. There is no hope for improving Windows at this point.
- rolymath 3mo ago
  > This article feels like ignorance. Wow. Let's see what an informed opinion looks like. > The best "Windows Lite" is a Linux distro with VSCode, .NET, PowerShell, etc. Oh.... ok then.
zombot 3mo ago
Microslop should unshittify, but that will never happen.
egorfine 3mo ago
Windows Server Core exists. Yet it costs like 20x of regular Windows license while supporting almost none of the applications.
giancarlostoro 3mo ago
I just bought a new computer because my old one was showing its age. I usualy go right into using Linux, but this time around I decided to let Windows be for a month or two. It took me anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour to setup Windows with a brand new email (I'm not giving them my old one). Several hours if I count for all the settings I had to hunt down and disable, all the BS I had to remove by hand (I'm not interested in automating this, I don't want instability in my OS that often comes from such scripts). I installed every update, and still yet, last night I still had updates from Microsoft I needed to install. I can install EndeavourOS in under 15 minutes, no annoying wizard of cruft, no online account needed, all updates out of the box (it updates it all during install). Fullly encrypted disk install - on windows you need pro iirc, I have direct access to Steam, Nvidia, Discord, etc in a simple "yay discord steam" command (Nvidia comes with the USB). I am not forced to update, I have a friend who didnt update his arch box for like 3 years, upgraded it a week back or so ago and it all worked. Windows needs to fire all the marketing people ruining the OS, fire whoever shoved JavaScript into places it didn't belong (unless they actually build a real JS runtime / UI for Windows not this React BS), and make the OS better. Windows 10 started okay but went downhill fast. Windows 11 is just Windows 10s worst parts with a new name. I'm already set on wiping Windows eventually, but I wanted a fresh take on why I always go back to Linux since I had not used 11 yet. It's just abysmal. I would rather pay Microsoft $99.99 flat for their own rendition of Wine with no telemetry, just a working Win32 environment I can run on any Linux distro, and it runs anything Windows designed fully natively in discrete sandboxing if I want it to. Till then Proton is free, and runs all my games. Edit: Also Windows does this really obnoxious thing now where they force all your critical folders into OneDrive out of the box. You have to go out of your way or anything you save a document or image it goes straight into OneDrive. That one pissed me off a ton. On my Surface Book 2 every time I restart it for updates, I'm forced into a full screen ad for subscribing to Office, mind you, I had Office subscription for like 2 years, which I've since cancelled, and they still tried to force that ad on me. Microsoft Windows is an ad infested OS, let me know when Microsoft starts selling an OS without the ads, till then I'll always find myself back on Linux. Oh and I forgot to note, the guy who was checking me out at BestBuy, had a Microsoft shirt, so he asks if I wanted Office, I responded "nah I usually just install Linux" that was the end of any convo he hoped to pitch my way.
Rotundo 3mo ago
The blog post sums up why users of Windows might want this. However, this is not what Microsoft wants or needs. Microsoft is doing just fine by providing businesses what they need: a platform that can be tightly controlled and is easy to administer for large user counts.
- WillAdams 3mo ago
  I dunno that it's that easy to administer --- time was, one of the concerns about NeXTstep was that it was so easy to setup/administer and so reliable that there was so little work involved, IT departments had to be downsized --- say rather that administering Windows is in-line w/ current budget projections/expectations.
  - thesuitonym 3mo ago
    It is easy to administer. Nothing come close to Active Directory + Group Policy, not even Entra ID + Intune. Windows in the enterprise is just a completely different beast to what you see in the home, or even small businesses.
    - WillAdams 3mo ago
      If it's so easy to administer, why is my work computer a never-ending series of updates and reboots and annoyances such as a printer list which scrolls through several screen worths of clicks before I can find the right printer?
      - 9x39 3mo ago
        Rolling out the updates to a fleet is the easy administration he’s talking about, which is neither optional nor a trivial task. Printer administration and Windows printer UX are different too, although the endless-printer-list-oh-god-its-not-even-alphabetical situation is more of an admin oversight to a clunky and low priority situation than anything. Small comfort, no doubt.
      - thesuitonym 3mo ago
haunter 3mo ago
LTSC, surprised the post doesn't mention that. No forced feature updates, no unnecessary preinstalled apps. I'm using them for years without any problems. There was only one extreme edge case where an app didn't work because it was hard coded to only work on Windows 10 Pro and couldn't do anything with the LTSC version. Yes you can't get it legally as a regular end user but MSFT also doesn't care about piracy either. They don't lose money on you (they rather keep you as a Windows user than switch to another platform). Windows 10 IoT Enterprise LTSC 2021 is supported until 2032, Windows 11 IoT Enterprise LTSC 2024 is supported until 2034.
- pdntspa 3mo ago
  Yeah but who gets that legally
  - okanat 3mo ago
    Businesses with volume licensing agreements and Kiosk manufacturers can get the licenses pretty easy. Then can even negotiate a lower cost per device.
  - deleted 3mo ago
    [deleted]
- nairboon 3mo ago
  > Yes you can't get it legally as a regular end user That's why it's not mentioned, it's not a product for "normal users", the audience described in the post.
  - haunter 3mo ago
    But that's also kind of the point too: Windows Lite exists but MSFT is "gatkeeping" it to enterprise users only. Probably because they are paying for it.
    - CamperBob2 3mo ago
      Not even enterprise customers are allowed to use LTSC. Only hardware OEMs. It's asinine. They could charge $1000+ for LTSC licenses, but my data and digital sovereignty is apparently worth even more to them.
chris_money202 3mo ago
OP says Windows needs builders to make applications and that is what Windows Lite would enable (or expand) but then says Windows Lite shouldn't include .NET one of the primary frameworks to build applications on Windows.
- vadikgo 3mo ago
  [dead]
- pbohun 3mo ago
  Honestly, I think starting from win32 again would be a breath of fresh air. Also, note that I described it as an option, no one would be forced on Windows Lite. It was my own speculation that it would become popular.
  - refulgentis 3mo ago
    The blog post itself is wishcasting, but it’s missing the point completely once we strip .NET. .NET has been around since I was at least 11, I’m 38 now. I don’t know why it’d be considered optional, the backwards compatibility story disappears without it. Once we want to start fresh from Win32 it’s just not-Windows programmer who vaguely understands Win32 is still available, rather than anything helping anyone.
- miah_ 3mo ago
  .NET is still installable as a standalone thing. In fact I probably have several versions installed on my current Windows PC. No reason Windows Lite couldn't also have .NET installed _when you need it_.
  - chris_money202 3mo ago
    I still don't know if I am sold with that. .NET is also a runtime so how do you handle the user story? If your users are also on Windows Lite then they have to manage .NET version or you have to package .NET with whatever you build. If your users are on full Windows, wouldn't it just make sense for you to build in same environment as your Users? Especially since IT would have to manage two separate operating systems if devs went Windows Lite and say Sales using the target app was on Windows. This whole thing makes sense for indie devs or build VMs but breaks down for Enterprise pretty quick, and Microsoft is much more friendly to Enterprise customers than indie devs.
summermusic 3mo ago
Without fixing the fundamental business incentives that drove Windows to be the heap of shit that it is today, something like this will never happen
delta_p_delta_x 3mo ago
> no .NET Not quite sure about this. .NET is a superb platform, easy to write reasonably good code, huge standard library, well-maintained, many languages supporting a wide variety of paradigms (C#, VB, F#, PowerShell, C++). .NET is one of Microsoft's success stories.
- bmurphy1976 3mo ago
  It should be installable, just via a package management system. You choose what you need. I think OP hasn't thought this through completely so he's missing this nuance in his post. That said, knowing Microsoft they WOULD release something like this but cripple it by doing something stupid like disallowing the use of virtualization technology, even as an installed package.
  - delta_p_delta_x 3mo ago
    > It should be installable, just via a package management system I disagree. .NET is fundamental to the Windows platform. It's like having a Python runtime installed by default in some Linux distros, which makes sense for that distribution's use-case.
    - contextfree 3mo ago
      Windows doesn't have any modern version of .NET installed by default though, only old .NET Framework versions
      - vitorgrs 3mo ago
        old UWP .NET it's also installed by default... It Appx package system, and it was/is delivered on the store
- CamouflagedKiwi 3mo ago
  It's also kind of pointless. Almost immediately, something will be installed that will require installing the .NET runtime, maybe multiple versions of it. If the argument is to try to prohibit it, then it just won't work as a platform, because too much existing software won't work on it. There's a lot of garbage I'd love to not have (all the stupid hardware config apps all the manufacturers push on you) but just having that functionality not work can't be the answer.
mschuster91 3mo ago
> The biggest pull keeping people on Windows, outside of shear inertia, is content creation and gaming. Oh hell no. The one big pull keeping people on Windows (and, for similar reasons, Office) is the insane amount of legacy enterprise stuff that depends on it. WINE and, with it, Valve/Proton have done a lot in that regard, but still, it's by far not enough.
- rolph 3mo ago
  bundling with windows into OEM and big box distributions as a condition of licensed sale, penalizing non bundled sales, does a good job capturing the market. OEM, retail, and consumers are not choosing the best product, they are hindered from having a choice.
romanovcode 3mo ago
> no .NET > Windows Lite is perfect for gamers and developers. What? All modern Windows software requires .NET
CamouflagedKiwi 3mo ago
I like the idea, but I don't really see why this would change the 'Builder' population. Gamers would love it (I have a Windows 10 install around for gaming, I'd take this in a flash, I'd probably not even complain too much about the money), but that isn't the same. To make it work for builders it needs to be an attractive place to do development and I don't see how this really helps with that (other than maybe improving the audience for their products). Although I am speculating there - I haven't written any code on Windows for maybe 15 years now and I don't expect ever to do so again.
otikik 3mo ago
How would this help any of the in-fighting MS teams get ahead next quarter?
throwa356262 3mo ago
Windows problems are major tech debt and an architecture that is just not working anymore Sure ads and AI are horrible but they are root of like 5% of the Windows problems. A good example of a real windows problem is the garbage filesystem performance
- haunter 3mo ago
  >Windows problems are major tech debt tbh the backwards compatibility is not the best and you might have better chance with Wine on Linux but it's still better than MacOS where even software from a couple years ago is unusuable (no 32 bit apps anymore). And will be only worse once Rosetta2 is dropped.
dspillett 3mo ago
> Windows Lite is $49 for a permanent license. No subscriptions. That will never happen. Much as I hate everything being subscription based these days, there is too much effort involved keeping it updated for security changes and dealing with advances in hardware for a cheap lifetime licence to be practical. The best we could hope for from them would be a buy-a-new-one-every-few-years model similar to how Windows and Office used to be sold to no-corp users. MS would be better off ditching Windows for non-commercial users and concentrating on Azure, Office (pivoting more completely to online versions), SQL Server, and AI services (assuming that bubble doesn't burst too damagingly soon), with a few other things that prop these things up a bit largely by driving people to host them in Azure (VisualStudio & VS Code, DevOps, Exchange, Outlook, Teams, Windows Server for corps who need/want to self-host, Windows Desktop for corps only). Windows desktop for corporate use only makes things a lot easier - they can limit the hardware support needed to a whitelist, and discard a lot of backwards compatibility tech-debt, and so forth. What would everyone else do? Use Linux or Apple, or one of the BSDs. They can still run VSCode (and maybe VS if that gets ported) to produce things hosted in Azure, they can still use hosted versions of Office/Outlook/Teams or perhaps even VS, so they aren't lost customers for the things that MS actually makes good money from (Windows Desktop has long since stopped being the cash-cow it once was). PC gamers would end up moving to consoles (or console-a-likes from the likes of Steam) including MS's offering if they keep in the games market.
internet2000 3mo ago
No, more SKUs is not the answer.
shevy-java 3mo ago
Ever since Win11 I lost all desire to retain Windows. I still have Win10 on my computer on the left side, mostly for testing, but I also decided it will be my last version of Windows anyway. Now, I have been using Linux since many years, so it is not an issue, but Win11 feels as if Microsoft finally declared total war on the user and I can't support that anymore. The telemetry sniffing and spying and now the upcoming age sniffing - sorry, my energy will only go towards opposing Microsoft now. I think it is time for ALL users to stop accepting these corrupt corporate overlords in general and the paid lobbyists that work for them. Mandatory age sniffing is the thing that will break societies here; mandatory AI slop also contributed to this problem.
ivanjermakov 3mo ago
Microsoft needs to repeat their Edge trick. Migrate Windows to the Linux kernel and get Linux compartibility out of the box. Immense research of running Windows programs on Linux was already done by Wine/Proton teams.
- okanat 3mo ago
  NT is a better kernel for consumer systems compared to Linux unlike first generation Edge which was a worse browser compared to Chrome.
  - tombert 3mo ago
    I don't necessarily disagree, but I am curious as to why you think that? What makes NT a "better kernel for consumers". I have some opinions on that but I don't want to bias your answer.
    - okanat 3mo ago
      Some architecture and some implementation details and sometimes purely economic reality: 1. NT is a hybrid kernel. Windows runs many drivers in userspace, if not in a limited kernel environment. This includes network drivers and GPU drivers. It can recover from crashes more gracefully than Linux and BSD kernels. Linux has similar drivers for specific use cases like FUSE, however, they are not as performant as NT. 2. NT has always been designed to drive a GUI-driven OS. So it has better default tunings than a vanilla Linux kernel to operate and stay reactive under memory pressure. When your system is under pressure you'd lose mouse movement on Linux, on NT this is rare. It is not impossible to do this under Linux, however, not many companies (except maybe Android manufacturers and Google/ChromeOS) actually invest in this. 3. NT provides a mostly stable API and ABI for drivers. It is not as strong as Win32 guarantees, however it retained mostly the same driver infrastructure since Vista. Many Win7 or Win8 drivers continue to work under Win11. 4. Bundled drivers for consumer systems in NT are often better quality. This could be the side effect of stable ABI. Unlike Linux, significant refactors changing big parts of the driver APIs are rare. I think this reflects in the quality of drivers like USB Host drivers. I deal with embedded Linux systems (x86, RPi), there is always some "rmmod and modprobe to fix USB" script somewhere in a deployed Linux embedded system. I have never seen anything similar in Windows Kiosk setups (TBH I have seen a lot of reinit of COM drivers but it is often manufacturer's faulty implementation). 5. There is simply more money invested to make consumer drivers work on NT. Linux is often an afterthought for many consumer device manufacturers. There is still not enough buy-in. Mainline Linux kernel team, being inferior marketshare-wise, requests more buy-in and more collaboration from device manufacturers. This works for servers since there is pressure from end customers who want to retain UNIX-like environments. Normal consumers cannot exert the same amount of pressure. Microsoft provides subsystems, APIs and ABIs to write the drivers to OEMs, often consulting the first manufacturers of a certain new device type and making compromises for them. Linux on the other hand, requires competitors to collaborate and create the subsystems and APIs. Competitor players themselves have to agree with the developers of their competitors to create a subsystem. On a capitalist economy competitors do not want to collaborate unless it significantly increases market size for everyone. Consumer electronics have very thin margins. They do not scale well with increased effort required by Linux. Only select few big tech or certain old-school consultancies send the significant system patches.
ck2 3mo ago
r/WindowsLTSC/wiki
c0l0 3mo ago
Windows actually needs to be laid to rest forever. Win32 may live on as a legacy/stable API (via WINE) on superior free and open platforms.
dvrp 3mo ago
Nice dream; the world is a bit more complicated than that.
bunderbunder 3mo ago
I don’t think things are quite so dire for Windows. People (including me) have been predicting the end of Windows due to losing mindshare with builders since the turn of the century, and it still hasn’t happened. The harsh truth is that most consumers pick Windows because PCs cost less than Macs. Businesses pick them for employee computers for the same reason. And Windows Server more or less became a moot point when the cloud took over. They don’t want you hosting your own Exchange server anymore, they want you in Office 365. And they’ll just as happily sell you Linux compute instances on Azure because lower COGS means more profit.
- mschuster91 3mo ago
  > The harsh truth is that most consumers pick Windows because PCs cost less than Macs. Ever since the MacBook Neo, that's no longer the case. And frankly... Apple has now demonstrated that an old iPhone SoC is enough to drive macOS. I think that it should be feasible for them to run macOS on iDevices as a hypervisor-style guest, yielding you the full macOS experience when plugged into an USB-C dock.
  - kypro 3mo ago
    Yeah, even before Neo, since M1, I've been urging people to buy a Macbook Air if they could afford to.. Or consider buying second hand if new is out of their price range. Budget Windows hardware is trash and the OS is so full of bloat that within a couple of years a budget Windows laptop will be barely functional. For a long time now arguably the only reason to go Windows is if you're a gamer or a business user with very specific software requirements.
    - bunderbunder 3mo ago
      Yes. I use both at home because reasons, and despite the much lower per-computer price tag PCs cost me about twice as much money on an annualized basis because they need to be replaced so much more often. But for a lot of people a Mac is still out of reach because they don’t actually have that much disposable cash on hand at any given moment. Which might not be how the situation has to be, strictly speaking, but I’m not here to bother them about their spending patterns. Also for most people who don’t have the computing needs of your average Hacker News follower, Chromebooks might be the real elephant in the room. The Chromebook users in my life seem to have easily the fewest computer worries.
moralestapia 3mo ago
>Windows Lite is $49 for a permanent license. No subscriptions. Lol, I wouldn't use it if they paid me to do it.
daft_pink 3mo ago
it would also be really nice to have arm and x64.
999900000999 3mo ago
What is this ? Can I get upvotes by inventing imaginary products ? Microsoft doesn’t want 50$ from you once for a decade. They want you subscribed to OneDrive, Gamepass and Office 365. If they care about consumers at all. Azure prints money. Windows is the defacto standard for most businesses. Microsoft even contributes to WINE at this point. VS code is most popular IDE on Linux. Heck, they wrote an official guide to use Gamepass cloud on SteamDeck. Cool use Linux, just keep paying Microsoft 30$ a month.
cdmckay 3mo ago
> Windows Lite is a stripped down version of Windows. No telemetry, no spying, no ads, no AI, no .NET, nothing. Windows Lite is just win32 with a lightweight shell and graphics drivers. So, basically Linux with Wine/Proton? Isn’t this basically what SteamOS does?
- smilekzs 3mo ago
  Last time I tried, a lot of CAD/CAE packages still won't operate under WINE, at least not out of the box.
wsgeek 3mo ago
Not trying to offend anyone at all but this is a prescription for the symptom not the disease. M$FT marketing would loooove to create WindowsLite. In fact the did it already back in the day -- and the public fell for it. WindowsME/SE/CE anyone? What utter pieces of garbage. The real problem is that they still have a moat (the Microsoft tax) on computer manufacturers which keeps their bloatware everywhere. It's one of the more brilliant things Gates pulled off and it's what allowed Ballmer's incompetence to go (almost) unnoticed for years. The other moat which the author correctly points out is inertia. All of the Microsoft faithful that don't want to learn something new (and I don't blame them -- that's a big letting go and reinvestment). And Apple could very well fall into the same hide-behind-the-moat behavior. It's what MBAs and beancounters gets you -- something Jobs was able to mostly avoid. But if we're being open-eyed about this, let's not put them on too high of a pedestal. I'm not at all saying I know where things are going but I do think it involves a Unix philosophy at the core. I think WSL bought Microsoft valuable time but it's embarrassingly obvious that Win32 has just turned to crap and bloat. The Linux/BSD APIs have their warts too but I'll take those warts any day.
omoikane 3mo ago
It's not obvious if this is a wishlist or endorsement for a product that actually exists. The tone makes it sound like a real product, but if I search for "Windows Lite", I get Windows LTSC, or some downloadable Windows-like software offered by a mix of legit and sketchy looking sites. I am not sure if the author meant the latter.
alkonaut 3mo ago
> ”No .net, nothing” Not sure this is possible, or provides a meaningful ”lightness”. The 4.x CLR is an OS component as expected as Win32. You could have it as a separate download but I don’t really see the point. I agree with the overall premise of the article though. I’d like to go a step further. It shouldn’t just be ”light”, it should be power user focused. There are a thousand little annoyances that plague the OS (like defaulting to hiding file name extensions) which every technical-above-average user needs to adjust in every new install.
aayushprime 3mo ago
I would be happier to see windows die. Gaming is already getting better on linux and content creation needs a push.
t1234s 3mo ago
W11 IoT https://massgrave.dev https://massgrave.dev
outside1234 3mo ago
You probably can't make the math work at $49 because of the endless sustaining engineering that would need to be done for this.
a2128 3mo ago
> Over time, Windows Lite becomes the main, and only, version of Windows. Development and maintenance costs fall, and somehow Microsoft makes more money than they ever did on an OS. Looking from the outside, it doesn't seem that Microsoft treats Windows as an isolated product anymore with a balance sheet of sales versus development costs. Rather, it's an advertising billboard for their other money-making products like Edge, Copilot, Microsoft 365, OneDrive, and at some point Candy Crush of all things(?). In fact this isn't isolated to just Windows or Microsoft either. SwiftKey pushes you to use OneDrive, Google (search engine) famously pushed Google products and there were antitrust discussions about that. Advertising was just some annoying thing that was necessary to power free web services but now it's infiltrated the very core of our day-to-day technology. Until we can get proper antitrust enforcement, we'll only see technological stagnation get worse as more products become boring billboard monopolies with little incentives to get better.
Nerdrotic 3mo ago
Charging for Windows Lite? Lawsuit in 3...2...1...
Nerdrotic 3mo ago
Charging for Windows Lite? Microsoft Lawsuit in 3...2...1...
andrewstuart 3mo ago
The politics is too powerful it will never truly happen. There WILL be something slightly lighter with the ability to move the taskbar.
jamiw 3mo ago
how are you supposed to approach this as "for developers" when you're removing one of the main things preinstalled on Windows that developers take advantage of? this post comes off as "someone who doesn't develop for windows coming up with a better windows". this isn't even mentioning all the enterprise stuff and the fact that an extremely large chunk of apps would cease to work. not to mention all of the other layers like GDI+ or gpu accelerated options like Direct2D
jeroenhd 3mo ago
Exactly, we need Windows Lite! Just Win32, media encoders, graphics drivers, CoPilot, and enough to run movie maker and Office, the rest is useless anyway! Or do you mean no Office support, just everything you need to run Steam? Or maybe you mean no UI and just the admin interface so you don't need all that bloat when all you need is a server. Except for Powershell and the management interface, of course. Actually, these days, we don't need applications, Copilot can do all that for us. Just Edge, Bing, and Copilot, the rest is bloat. There's plenty of unnecessary crap in Windows but everyone who wants Windows Lite wants a different subset to be included in Windows Lite. Just imagine the tech support hell you'd be in when a client installs your software on a machine that doesn't have .NET or H.264 support or libraries for decoding JPEGs or a webview because their kid said they can make the PC less bloated. And you can bet that Windows' remote help support and all of the requirements for third party remote desktop are omitted from anyone's view of "minimal Windows"! For what it's worth, various stripped-down Windows images exist online. They all use official Windows binaries with signed DLLs and everything so you could theoretically even verify that they're safe. Just don't expect your programs to work on them and be ready to reinstall when a system service inevitably corrupts.
- taffydavid 3mo ago
  > Exactly, we need Windows Lite! Just Win32, media encoders, graphics drivers, CoPilot, and enough to run movie maker and Office, the rest is useless anyway! I know you're trying to make a counter point, but nobody wants copilot. Out of everyone I've talked to in the last year, across a broad spectrum of Windows users from sys admins who make me feel like a caveman down to my parents, nobody trusts AI and nobody wants AI in their OS or apps. An AI free Windows would be an instant hit, but it would fly in the face of everything Microsoft stands for, so for that reason, it'll never happen
mattbee 3mo ago
Builders and gamers can install regular Windows. They can run a de-crapifying script to strip it right back - cut the AI, OneDrive, adverts etc. It flies along very predictably without that. So much is optional and easily removed. You don't even have to pay for it any more, never mind $49. For the power users that he's talking about, I don't see the issue. (I agree the default state for Windows is completely rotten, and it shouldn't be!)
while_true_ 3mo ago
Too late. In my household there are 4 desktops and one laptop. Wiped Windows and installed Debian with KDE Plasma. For our use it's a better "windows" than Windows. Not going back.
tombert 3mo ago
I mean, sure. OR, we just treat the Win32/Win64 API as the standard ABI for cross-platform stuff (that can't easily be done in the web with WASM) and then use Wine/Proton. Then everything is FOSS and portable and free and doesn't have a bunch of tracking bullshit. I feel like with gaming this is more or less becoming the reality. Disregarding online gaming [1], a lot of games are being written for "Windows" and being played on Linux. In reality, I think that a lot of newer games are kind of being written with Proton as the target, and the fact that they work on Windows is incidental. [1] Which I know you can't fully "disregard" but I don't think it kills my point.
Night_Thastus 3mo ago
No they don't. Why should they bother? * Costs them money to make * Costs them money to maintain * Will only be used by a TINY subset of ultra-enthusiasts (no, neither HN or Reddit are majorities) * Every user on it is less telemetry and less advertisement The reality is that most users don't care, and will just use whatever seems to work fine. Finding out that 'oh yeah, feature/software X does not work on Windows Lite" will inevitably mean that almost everyone stays on mainline. I don't get why people bother making these wish fulfillment posts regarding Windows. It is what it is, either get used to it or use something else. MS hasn't been listening and they aren't going to start. Your wallet and mine don't make even the tiniest dent in their bottom line.
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]
- ramon156 3mo ago
  I agree with your reasons but not with "the majority doesn't care". Sure they do. The internet is filled with Windows hate, and Reddit isn't as small as you remember it to be. The majority has no other option. Linux is too much trouble to learn and Mac requires a new device. What else are you supposed to do?
  - LoganDark 3mo ago
    Hey, Mac is a huge learning experience too. If your mind is set in the ways of Windows, you are gonna have a bad time when you assume Mac is just as bad (easy example: using clunky Windows workarounds to avoid problems that don't exist on Mac). You almost become oblivious to the straightforward way of doing things because Windows is so fucky. It can be really hard to get an average person used to Windows to find value in Mac, because they don't naturally see the simplification to their workflow, they just expect Mac to work the same way (ie, for their workarounds to function the same way).
    - hypercube33 3mo ago
      Up until OS 26 I'd agree with you but honestly it's not far off from windows other than some small permissions annoyances and the stupid natural scrolling. I got a neo out of desperation to do some audio work and immediately felt at home where I never did on my older Air.
lowbloodsugar 3mo ago
Why not DOS? Why not windows 3.1? Well they are too old. win32? Also too old. This is what the .NET complaint is disguising. It's not DOS->3.1->3.11->win32->.NET and so lets just go back one place. It's DOS->3.1->3.11->win32->.NET 1.0->.NET 2.0->.NET 3.0? WPF->.NET 5...->WinUI. Along the way there's COM, DCOM, ActiveX, all sorts of terrible things!
- jamiw 3mo ago
  don't forget gdi+, direct2d, and pretty much every other layer built on win32 that are actively used because they're better than directly interfacing via win32
deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]
jmmv 3mo ago
Two years ago, I spent time studying the Windows NT kernel internals and ended up writing a comparison against Unix here: https://blogsystem5.substack.com/p/windows-nt-vs-unix-design https://blogsystem5.substack.com/p/windows-nt-vs-unix-design . What I came out of that exercise with is that NT is actually well-made and was very ambitious and advanced at the time it was designed (although free systems have caught up by now). But what I also came out thinking was: none of that shows. The kernel is great, sure, but all of the crap that has been built on top doesn't let it shine, and that's what people interact with. Take Windows 11 with is dog-slow file manager and the overall feeling that everything is bloated and designed to annoy you. I wish there was a simpler edition... but it ain't gonna happen.
- mdavid626 3mo ago
  It's also interesting to see that after 30 years Windows NT is still a decent OS/kernel. Of course the rest of Windows is just pure garbage.
tom_ 3mo ago
Slightly struck by the term "builders" here. What is this trying to say, that, say, "developers" wouldn't? ("build" does seem to have been settled on as the word for the thing you do when you have the LLM write your code for you, but I'd have thought that "developer" is vague enough to cover both that and also doing it the old-fashioned way?)
627467 3mo ago
> Without Builders, you don't have software, and without software, you don't have users. This is why Microsoft needs Windows Lite. > Windows Lite is a stripped down version of Windows. No telemetry, Exactly. They already have telemetry, so in theory they know what they are doing (?)
sitzkrieg 3mo ago
windows 10 ltsc. zero issues so far
effnorwood 3mo ago
already did. called it xp. just fix that. done. you're welcome.
contextfree 3mo ago
The post doesn't really define the problem this is supposed to solve for "builders". FWIW, Microsoft's official attempt at solving this problem? seems to be "Windows developer configs" -> https://github.com/microsoft/WindowsDeveloperConfig https://github.com/microsoft/WindowsDeveloperConfig which is described as A WinGet Configuration (DSC) file that sets up a clean, lightweight, distraction-free developer workstation. The goal is a PC state that devs actually love using: no clutter, no noise, just the tools you need. (...) * A PC devs actually want to use. Clean Explorer, dark theme, no pop-ups, no recommendations, no widgets. Just your code and your tools. (...)
bitwize 3mo ago
Microsoft is in a pickle. Linux and open source have made "selling operating systems" nearly as preposterous as it was back in the mainframe era when they were getting started. So it's gotten very hard to generate revenue directly from Windows. Not even Apple is in the business of selling an OS—they sell hardware, and the OS comes as part of the package. Microsoft has kept good will amongst OEMs by keeping Windows license prices for hardware manufacturers low to nonexistent—were they to actually try making money through the OEM channel by charging a more reasonable price per license, the OEMs would find a way to jump ship to Linux (perhaps ChromeOS). This has already happened during the "netbook era" until Microsoft intervened with Windows 7 Starter Edition. The pivot for Windows has thus been to find ways for Windows to generate revenue indirectly—by funneling users into other Microsoft products and services, particularly cloud and AI in 2026. But this approach is creating the exact user-hostility problems people are complaining about. Without the ability to generate revenue directly, nor the ability to generate revenue indirectly through cloud services, Windows becomes a cost center rather than a profit center. So no, I don't see them going the Windows Lite route at all. If they cut out the fat, they cut off Windows's revenue stream and its reason for existing in the first place.
virajk_31 3mo ago
Windows has become a problem and users can never get rid of it.
pjmlp 3mo ago
> Windows Lite is a stripped down version of Windows. No telemetry, no spying, no ads, no AI, no .NET, nothing. Windows Lite is just win32 with a lightweight shell and graphics drivers. Not going to happen. Win32 is stuck in Windows XP, most modern development has been on .NET, even if the core components are implemented in C++, exposed via COM. PowerShell is all about .NET and COM interop.
da-x 3mo ago
ReactOS is already some sort of Windows Lite. And now with coding agents we can accelerate development on it.
PeterStuer 3mo ago
So no juicy 'telemetry' data for profiling, recurring revenue service tie-ins, advertizing revenue deals nor hefty 'store' margins? Somehow I don't see this happening.
vazark 3mo ago
That sounds like Windows Premium, not Lite. The annoying parts are the "features" that modern MS added intentionally
Melatonic 3mo ago
We already have it. It's called LTSC Or maybe we'll get a new more stripped down version of the "software engineer" deployment mode they released recently
smcleod 3mo ago
But does anyone actually need a Windows?
- edgie123 3mo ago
  At this point only a few people because of some software.
tpoacher 3mo ago
There is already a "Windows Lite", and it's called ReactOS [0]. Except, the last thing we need is for Microsoft to own / embrace-extend-exterminate this. It's best that it's kept as an independent project, enabling developers to target the Windows API if they feel like it, while ensuring that they only target the Wine-compatible parts of it, which then enables their software to also run seamlessly on other platforms at no extra effort, and without requiring either the users or the devs to have to lock themselves into this ungodly telemetry-spying-ads-AI-.NET mess that the article talks about. Microsoft, on the other hand, has zero to gain from making a Windows Lite variant themselves given their lifeline is exactly this telemetry-spying-ads-AI-.NET ecosystem; and they have zero to gain from absorbing ReactOS or similar projects, other than in order to eliminate them. [0] https://reactos.org/ https://reactos.org/
- sph 3mo ago
  I think the author meant something that can be used in practice for real work, not a cyclopean effort of clean room reimplementation of Windows as a hobby for part-time volunteers. The reality is as you said, only Microsoft can make Windows Lite, and they don’t care to.
  - tpoacher 3mo ago
    Possibly, but that still doesn't mean there isn't a real benefit to developers developing for ReactOS as a proxy for developing for Windows in a manner that makes their products instantly compatible with Mac and Linux. The "real work" part is mostly about the user. And that depends on available programs on the platform, not on the user's boundless love for telemetry. OP seems to be mostly addressing developers here, so the point stands.
phpzmurf 3mo ago
user experience doesn't matter, where's the shareholder value?
mdavid626 3mo ago
It's hard to justify to pay for an operating system, when Linux and Mac OS is for free.
- not_a_bot_4sho 3mo ago
  I wouldn't call MacOS 'free' given it has very strict requirements for proprietary hardware.
  - mdavid626 3mo ago
    Free in a sense that I don't have to pay extra for it (comes with the machine) and no extra fee for new versions either.
    - sixothree 3mo ago
      Windows comes with machines too. Just because it comes with an Apple computer does not mean you aren't paying for it. You certainly are paying for it.
runjake 3mo ago
This is essentially what the IoT Enterprise LTSC edition is. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/evalcenter/evaluate-windows-11-iot-enterprise-ltsc https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/evalcenter/evaluate-windows-... Aside from that, there are various tools and deployment files to automate a stripped down Windows 11 installation. I don't really use Windows except on my gaming PC, but I like winutil: https://github.com/christitustech/winutil https://github.com/christitustech/winutil But there are better declarative tools out there that generate a stripped down installation. Despite it's reputation, Windows 11 is fairly modular for a commercial OS.
pwdisswordfishq 3mo ago
In a roundabout way, this exists – it’s called Windows RE.
movetheworld 3mo ago
YES! I mean a man can dream... I love windows software like "xyplorer", an ideal explorer replacement, "notepad++" for everything text-related and "FSViewer" for displaying all pictures, all portable, all heavily customizable. But personally, I think microsoft is not interested in it's users. It all about control of it's users and making money off them. MS has no intention of changing that. Please, make the switch to linux and own your OS!
taffydavid 3mo ago
I used to have a custom ISO of Windows XP using Barts PE and a bunch of other tools. It would install a fairly stripped version of the OS that ran really well on old hardware. I probably still have it somewhere, but I still ended up on Windows 10 because most of the software I wanted (games, electron apps) wouldn't work on it anymore. But I genuinely miss having the ability to take the bloat out before you ever install the OS
Surac 3mo ago
omitting .net will cost you a big base of builders. just my 2 cents.
gorjusborg 3mo ago
Even at $45 I am still not interested. For actually building software, Linux is king. The OS is a commodity, and I largely do not have to think about it. For desktop use, sure, $45 could fly, but, the main draw of windows is compatibility with existing software, and honestly that is no longer worth it.
djsedaw 3mo ago
Instead we get Windows Shite!

146 points by pbohun 3mo ago

flanked-evergl 3mo ago

[flagged]

theandrewbailey 3mo ago
I'd love a currently supported, slop-free Windows XP or 7, hell even 10.

greenavocado 3mo ago

Already addressed in my previous comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48675898 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48675898

rich_sasha 3mo ago

This is great - and who would then buy the "full fat" Windows? Who wants the product that works, but also with bloatware, spyware, slower, more expensive and taking up more resources?

stogot 3mo ago

Microsoft needs a “secure” windows lite, and a “secure” azure, and a “secure” token vending service, and a GitHub that is highly available. It has none of these today

VCFundedGenYer 3mo ago

This article feels like ignorance. The best "Windows Lite" is a Linux distro with VSCode, .NET, PowerShell, etc. There is no hope for improving Windows at this point.

rolymath 3mo ago
> This article feels like ignorance. Wow. Let's see what an informed opinion looks like. > The best "Windows Lite" is a Linux distro with VSCode, .NET, PowerShell, etc. Oh.... ok then.

zombot 3mo ago

Microslop should unshittify, but that will never happen.

egorfine 3mo ago

Windows Server Core exists. Yet it costs like 20x of regular Windows license while supporting almost none of the applications.

giancarlostoro 3mo ago

I just bought a new computer because my old one was showing its age. I usualy go right into using Linux, but this time around I decided to let Windows be for a month or two. It took me anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour to setup Windows with a brand new email (I'm not giving them my old one). Several hours if I count for all the settings I had to hunt down and disable, all the BS I had to remove by hand (I'm not interested in automating this, I don't want instability in my OS that often comes from such scripts). I installed every update, and still yet, last night I still had updates from Microsoft I needed to install. I can install EndeavourOS in under 15 minutes, no annoying wizard of cruft, no online account needed, all updates out of the box (it updates it all during install). Fullly encrypted disk install - on windows you need pro iirc, I have direct access to Steam, Nvidia, Discord, etc in a simple "yay discord steam" command (Nvidia comes with the USB). I am not forced to update, I have a friend who didnt update his arch box for like 3 years, upgraded it a week back or so ago and it all worked. Windows needs to fire all the marketing people ruining the OS, fire whoever shoved JavaScript into places it didn't belong (unless they actually build a real JS runtime / UI for Windows not this React BS), and make the OS better. Windows 10 started okay but went downhill fast. Windows 11 is just Windows 10s worst parts with a new name. I'm already set on wiping Windows eventually, but I wanted a fresh take on why I always go back to Linux since I had not used 11 yet. It's just abysmal. I would rather pay Microsoft $99.99 flat for their own rendition of Wine with no telemetry, just a working Win32 environment I can run on any Linux distro, and it runs anything Windows designed fully natively in discrete sandboxing if I want it to. Till then Proton is free, and runs all my games. Edit: Also Windows does this really obnoxious thing now where they force all your critical folders into OneDrive out of the box. You have to go out of your way or anything you save a document or image it goes straight into OneDrive. That one pissed me off a ton. On my Surface Book 2 every time I restart it for updates, I'm forced into a full screen ad for subscribing to Office, mind you, I had Office subscription for like 2 years, which I've since cancelled, and they still tried to force that ad on me. Microsoft Windows is an ad infested OS, let me know when Microsoft starts selling an OS without the ads, till then I'll always find myself back on Linux. Oh and I forgot to note, the guy who was checking me out at BestBuy, had a Microsoft shirt, so he asks if I wanted Office, I responded "nah I usually just install Linux" that was the end of any convo he hoped to pitch my way.

Rotundo 3mo ago

The blog post sums up why users of Windows might want this. However, this is not what Microsoft wants or needs. Microsoft is doing just fine by providing businesses what they need: a platform that can be tightly controlled and is easy to administer for large user counts.

WillAdams 3mo ago
I dunno that it's that easy to administer --- time was, one of the concerns about NeXTstep was that it was so easy to setup/administer and so reliable that there was so little work involved, IT departments had to be downsized --- say rather that administering Windows is in-line w/ current budget projections/expectations.
- thesuitonym 3mo ago
  It is easy to administer. Nothing come close to Active Directory + Group Policy, not even Entra ID + Intune. Windows in the enterprise is just a completely different beast to what you see in the home, or even small businesses.
  - WillAdams 3mo ago
    If it's so easy to administer, why is my work computer a never-ending series of updates and reboots and annoyances such as a printer list which scrolls through several screen worths of clicks before I can find the right printer?
    - 9x39 3mo ago
      Rolling out the updates to a fleet is the easy administration he’s talking about, which is neither optional nor a trivial task. Printer administration and Windows printer UX are different too, although the endless-printer-list-oh-god-its-not-even-alphabetical situation is more of an admin oversight to a clunky and low priority situation than anything. Small comfort, no doubt.
    - thesuitonym 3mo ago

haunter 3mo ago

LTSC, surprised the post doesn't mention that. No forced feature updates, no unnecessary preinstalled apps. I'm using them for years without any problems. There was only one extreme edge case where an app didn't work because it was hard coded to only work on Windows 10 Pro and couldn't do anything with the LTSC version. Yes you can't get it legally as a regular end user but MSFT also doesn't care about piracy either. They don't lose money on you (they rather keep you as a Windows user than switch to another platform). Windows 10 IoT Enterprise LTSC 2021 is supported until 2032, Windows 11 IoT Enterprise LTSC 2024 is supported until 2034.

pdntspa 3mo ago
Yeah but who gets that legally
- okanat 3mo ago
  Businesses with volume licensing agreements and Kiosk manufacturers can get the licenses pretty easy. Then can even negotiate a lower cost per device.
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]
nairboon 3mo ago
> Yes you can't get it legally as a regular end user That's why it's not mentioned, it's not a product for "normal users", the audience described in the post.
- haunter 3mo ago
  But that's also kind of the point too: Windows Lite exists but MSFT is "gatkeeping" it to enterprise users only. Probably because they are paying for it.
  - CamperBob2 3mo ago
    Not even enterprise customers are allowed to use LTSC. Only hardware OEMs. It's asinine. They could charge $1000+ for LTSC licenses, but my data and digital sovereignty is apparently worth even more to them.

chris_money202 3mo ago

OP says Windows needs builders to make applications and that is what Windows Lite would enable (or expand) but then says Windows Lite shouldn't include .NET one of the primary frameworks to build applications on Windows.

vadikgo 3mo ago
[dead]
pbohun 3mo ago
Honestly, I think starting from win32 again would be a breath of fresh air. Also, note that I described it as an option, no one would be forced on Windows Lite. It was my own speculation that it would become popular.
- refulgentis 3mo ago
  The blog post itself is wishcasting, but it’s missing the point completely once we strip .NET. .NET has been around since I was at least 11, I’m 38 now. I don’t know why it’d be considered optional, the backwards compatibility story disappears without it. Once we want to start fresh from Win32 it’s just not-Windows programmer who vaguely understands Win32 is still available, rather than anything helping anyone.
miah_ 3mo ago
.NET is still installable as a standalone thing. In fact I probably have several versions installed on my current Windows PC. No reason Windows Lite couldn't also have .NET installed _when you need it_.
- chris_money202 3mo ago
  I still don't know if I am sold with that. .NET is also a runtime so how do you handle the user story? If your users are also on Windows Lite then they have to manage .NET version or you have to package .NET with whatever you build. If your users are on full Windows, wouldn't it just make sense for you to build in same environment as your Users? Especially since IT would have to manage two separate operating systems if devs went Windows Lite and say Sales using the target app was on Windows. This whole thing makes sense for indie devs or build VMs but breaks down for Enterprise pretty quick, and Microsoft is much more friendly to Enterprise customers than indie devs.

summermusic 3mo ago

Without fixing the fundamental business incentives that drove Windows to be the heap of shit that it is today, something like this will never happen

delta_p_delta_x 3mo ago

> no .NET Not quite sure about this. .NET is a superb platform, easy to write reasonably good code, huge standard library, well-maintained, many languages supporting a wide variety of paradigms (C#, VB, F#, PowerShell, C++). .NET is one of Microsoft's success stories.

bmurphy1976 3mo ago
It should be installable, just via a package management system. You choose what you need. I think OP hasn't thought this through completely so he's missing this nuance in his post. That said, knowing Microsoft they WOULD release something like this but cripple it by doing something stupid like disallowing the use of virtualization technology, even as an installed package.
- delta_p_delta_x 3mo ago
  > It should be installable, just via a package management system I disagree. .NET is fundamental to the Windows platform. It's like having a Python runtime installed by default in some Linux distros, which makes sense for that distribution's use-case.
  - contextfree 3mo ago
    Windows doesn't have any modern version of .NET installed by default though, only old .NET Framework versions
    - vitorgrs 3mo ago
      old UWP .NET it's also installed by default... It Appx package system, and it was/is delivered on the store
CamouflagedKiwi 3mo ago
It's also kind of pointless. Almost immediately, something will be installed that will require installing the .NET runtime, maybe multiple versions of it. If the argument is to try to prohibit it, then it just won't work as a platform, because too much existing software won't work on it. There's a lot of garbage I'd love to not have (all the stupid hardware config apps all the manufacturers push on you) but just having that functionality not work can't be the answer.

mschuster91 3mo ago

> The biggest pull keeping people on Windows, outside of shear inertia, is content creation and gaming. Oh hell no. The one big pull keeping people on Windows (and, for similar reasons, Office) is the insane amount of legacy enterprise stuff that depends on it. WINE and, with it, Valve/Proton have done a lot in that regard, but still, it's by far not enough.

rolph 3mo ago
bundling with windows into OEM and big box distributions as a condition of licensed sale, penalizing non bundled sales, does a good job capturing the market. OEM, retail, and consumers are not choosing the best product, they are hindered from having a choice.

romanovcode 3mo ago

> no .NET > Windows Lite is perfect for gamers and developers. What? All modern Windows software requires .NET

CamouflagedKiwi 3mo ago

I like the idea, but I don't really see why this would change the 'Builder' population. Gamers would love it (I have a Windows 10 install around for gaming, I'd take this in a flash, I'd probably not even complain too much about the money), but that isn't the same. To make it work for builders it needs to be an attractive place to do development and I don't see how this really helps with that (other than maybe improving the audience for their products). Although I am speculating there - I haven't written any code on Windows for maybe 15 years now and I don't expect ever to do so again.

otikik 3mo ago

How would this help any of the in-fighting MS teams get ahead next quarter?

throwa356262 3mo ago

Windows problems are major tech debt and an architecture that is just not working anymore Sure ads and AI are horrible but they are root of like 5% of the Windows problems. A good example of a real windows problem is the garbage filesystem performance

haunter 3mo ago
>Windows problems are major tech debt tbh the backwards compatibility is not the best and you might have better chance with Wine on Linux but it's still better than MacOS where even software from a couple years ago is unusuable (no 32 bit apps anymore). And will be only worse once Rosetta2 is dropped.

dspillett 3mo ago

> Windows Lite is $49 for a permanent license. No subscriptions. That will never happen. Much as I hate everything being subscription based these days, there is too much effort involved keeping it updated for security changes and dealing with advances in hardware for a cheap lifetime licence to be practical. The best we could hope for from them would be a buy-a-new-one-every-few-years model similar to how Windows and Office used to be sold to no-corp users. MS would be better off ditching Windows for non-commercial users and concentrating on Azure, Office (pivoting more completely to online versions), SQL Server, and AI services (assuming that bubble doesn't burst too damagingly soon), with a few other things that prop these things up a bit largely by driving people to host them in Azure (VisualStudio & VS Code, DevOps, Exchange, Outlook, Teams, Windows Server for corps who need/want to self-host, Windows Desktop for corps only). Windows desktop for corporate use only makes things a lot easier - they can limit the hardware support needed to a whitelist, and discard a lot of backwards compatibility tech-debt, and so forth. What would everyone else do? Use Linux or Apple, or one of the BSDs. They can still run VSCode (and maybe VS if that gets ported) to produce things hosted in Azure, they can still use hosted versions of Office/Outlook/Teams or perhaps even VS, so they aren't lost customers for the things that MS actually makes good money from (Windows Desktop has long since stopped being the cash-cow it once was). PC gamers would end up moving to consoles (or console-a-likes from the likes of Steam) including MS's offering if they keep in the games market.

internet2000 3mo ago

No, more SKUs is not the answer.

shevy-java 3mo ago

Ever since Win11 I lost all desire to retain Windows. I still have Win10 on my computer on the left side, mostly for testing, but I also decided it will be my last version of Windows anyway. Now, I have been using Linux since many years, so it is not an issue, but Win11 feels as if Microsoft finally declared total war on the user and I can't support that anymore. The telemetry sniffing and spying and now the upcoming age sniffing - sorry, my energy will only go towards opposing Microsoft now. I think it is time for ALL users to stop accepting these corrupt corporate overlords in general and the paid lobbyists that work for them. Mandatory age sniffing is the thing that will break societies here; mandatory AI slop also contributed to this problem.

ivanjermakov 3mo ago

Microsoft needs to repeat their Edge trick. Migrate Windows to the Linux kernel and get Linux compartibility out of the box. Immense research of running Windows programs on Linux was already done by Wine/Proton teams.

okanat 3mo ago
NT is a better kernel for consumer systems compared to Linux unlike first generation Edge which was a worse browser compared to Chrome.
- tombert 3mo ago
  I don't necessarily disagree, but I am curious as to why you think that? What makes NT a "better kernel for consumers". I have some opinions on that but I don't want to bias your answer.
  - okanat 3mo ago
    Some architecture and some implementation details and sometimes purely economic reality: 1. NT is a hybrid kernel. Windows runs many drivers in userspace, if not in a limited kernel environment. This includes network drivers and GPU drivers. It can recover from crashes more gracefully than Linux and BSD kernels. Linux has similar drivers for specific use cases like FUSE, however, they are not as performant as NT. 2. NT has always been designed to drive a GUI-driven OS. So it has better default tunings than a vanilla Linux kernel to operate and stay reactive under memory pressure. When your system is under pressure you'd lose mouse movement on Linux, on NT this is rare. It is not impossible to do this under Linux, however, not many companies (except maybe Android manufacturers and Google/ChromeOS) actually invest in this. 3. NT provides a mostly stable API and ABI for drivers. It is not as strong as Win32 guarantees, however it retained mostly the same driver infrastructure since Vista. Many Win7 or Win8 drivers continue to work under Win11. 4. Bundled drivers for consumer systems in NT are often better quality. This could be the side effect of stable ABI. Unlike Linux, significant refactors changing big parts of the driver APIs are rare. I think this reflects in the quality of drivers like USB Host drivers. I deal with embedded Linux systems (x86, RPi), there is always some "rmmod and modprobe to fix USB" script somewhere in a deployed Linux embedded system. I have never seen anything similar in Windows Kiosk setups (TBH I have seen a lot of reinit of COM drivers but it is often manufacturer's faulty implementation). 5. There is simply more money invested to make consumer drivers work on NT. Linux is often an afterthought for many consumer device manufacturers. There is still not enough buy-in. Mainline Linux kernel team, being inferior marketshare-wise, requests more buy-in and more collaboration from device manufacturers. This works for servers since there is pressure from end customers who want to retain UNIX-like environments. Normal consumers cannot exert the same amount of pressure. Microsoft provides subsystems, APIs and ABIs to write the drivers to OEMs, often consulting the first manufacturers of a certain new device type and making compromises for them. Linux on the other hand, requires competitors to collaborate and create the subsystems and APIs. Competitor players themselves have to agree with the developers of their competitors to create a subsystem. On a capitalist economy competitors do not want to collaborate unless it significantly increases market size for everyone. Consumer electronics have very thin margins. They do not scale well with increased effort required by Linux. Only select few big tech or certain old-school consultancies send the significant system patches.

ck2 3mo ago

r/WindowsLTSC/wiki

c0l0 3mo ago

Windows actually needs to be laid to rest forever. Win32 may live on as a legacy/stable API (via WINE) on superior free and open platforms.

dvrp 3mo ago

Nice dream; the world is a bit more complicated than that.

bunderbunder 3mo ago

I don’t think things are quite so dire for Windows. People (including me) have been predicting the end of Windows due to losing mindshare with builders since the turn of the century, and it still hasn’t happened. The harsh truth is that most consumers pick Windows because PCs cost less than Macs. Businesses pick them for employee computers for the same reason. And Windows Server more or less became a moot point when the cloud took over. They don’t want you hosting your own Exchange server anymore, they want you in Office 365. And they’ll just as happily sell you Linux compute instances on Azure because lower COGS means more profit.

mschuster91 3mo ago
> The harsh truth is that most consumers pick Windows because PCs cost less than Macs. Ever since the MacBook Neo, that's no longer the case. And frankly... Apple has now demonstrated that an old iPhone SoC is enough to drive macOS. I think that it should be feasible for them to run macOS on iDevices as a hypervisor-style guest, yielding you the full macOS experience when plugged into an USB-C dock.
- kypro 3mo ago
  Yeah, even before Neo, since M1, I've been urging people to buy a Macbook Air if they could afford to.. Or consider buying second hand if new is out of their price range. Budget Windows hardware is trash and the OS is so full of bloat that within a couple of years a budget Windows laptop will be barely functional. For a long time now arguably the only reason to go Windows is if you're a gamer or a business user with very specific software requirements.
  - bunderbunder 3mo ago
    Yes. I use both at home because reasons, and despite the much lower per-computer price tag PCs cost me about twice as much money on an annualized basis because they need to be replaced so much more often. But for a lot of people a Mac is still out of reach because they don’t actually have that much disposable cash on hand at any given moment. Which might not be how the situation has to be, strictly speaking, but I’m not here to bother them about their spending patterns. Also for most people who don’t have the computing needs of your average Hacker News follower, Chromebooks might be the real elephant in the room. The Chromebook users in my life seem to have easily the fewest computer worries.

moralestapia 3mo ago

>Windows Lite is $49 for a permanent license. No subscriptions. Lol, I wouldn't use it if they paid me to do it.

daft_pink 3mo ago

it would also be really nice to have arm and x64.

999900000999 3mo ago

What is this ? Can I get upvotes by inventing imaginary products ? Microsoft doesn’t want 50$ from you once for a decade. They want you subscribed to OneDrive, Gamepass and Office 365. If they care about consumers at all. Azure prints money. Windows is the defacto standard for most businesses. Microsoft even contributes to WINE at this point. VS code is most popular IDE on Linux. Heck, they wrote an official guide to use Gamepass cloud on SteamDeck. Cool use Linux, just keep paying Microsoft 30$ a month.

cdmckay 3mo ago

smilekzs 3mo ago
Last time I tried, a lot of CAD/CAE packages still won't operate under WINE, at least not out of the box.

wsgeek 3mo ago

Not trying to offend anyone at all but this is a prescription for the symptom not the disease. M$FT marketing would loooove to create WindowsLite. In fact the did it already back in the day -- and the public fell for it. WindowsME/SE/CE anyone? What utter pieces of garbage. The real problem is that they still have a moat (the Microsoft tax) on computer manufacturers which keeps their bloatware everywhere. It's one of the more brilliant things Gates pulled off and it's what allowed Ballmer's incompetence to go (almost) unnoticed for years. The other moat which the author correctly points out is inertia. All of the Microsoft faithful that don't want to learn something new (and I don't blame them -- that's a big letting go and reinvestment). And Apple could very well fall into the same hide-behind-the-moat behavior. It's what MBAs and beancounters gets you -- something Jobs was able to mostly avoid. But if we're being open-eyed about this, let's not put them on too high of a pedestal. I'm not at all saying I know where things are going but I do think it involves a Unix philosophy at the core. I think WSL bought Microsoft valuable time but it's embarrassingly obvious that Win32 has just turned to crap and bloat. The Linux/BSD APIs have their warts too but I'll take those warts any day.

omoikane 3mo ago

It's not obvious if this is a wishlist or endorsement for a product that actually exists. The tone makes it sound like a real product, but if I search for "Windows Lite", I get Windows LTSC, or some downloadable Windows-like software offered by a mix of legit and sketchy looking sites. I am not sure if the author meant the latter.

alkonaut 3mo ago

> ”No .net, nothing” Not sure this is possible, or provides a meaningful ”lightness”. The 4.x CLR is an OS component as expected as Win32. You could have it as a separate download but I don’t really see the point. I agree with the overall premise of the article though. I’d like to go a step further. It shouldn’t just be ”light”, it should be power user focused. There are a thousand little annoyances that plague the OS (like defaulting to hiding file name extensions) which every technical-above-average user needs to adjust in every new install.

aayushprime 3mo ago

I would be happier to see windows die. Gaming is already getting better on linux and content creation needs a push.

t1234s 3mo ago

W11 IoT https://massgrave.dev https://massgrave.dev

outside1234 3mo ago

You probably can't make the math work at $49 because of the endless sustaining engineering that would need to be done for this.

a2128 3mo ago

> Over time, Windows Lite becomes the main, and only, version of Windows. Development and maintenance costs fall, and somehow Microsoft makes more money than they ever did on an OS. Looking from the outside, it doesn't seem that Microsoft treats Windows as an isolated product anymore with a balance sheet of sales versus development costs. Rather, it's an advertising billboard for their other money-making products like Edge, Copilot, Microsoft 365, OneDrive, and at some point Candy Crush of all things(?). In fact this isn't isolated to just Windows or Microsoft either. SwiftKey pushes you to use OneDrive, Google (search engine) famously pushed Google products and there were antitrust discussions about that. Advertising was just some annoying thing that was necessary to power free web services but now it's infiltrated the very core of our day-to-day technology. Until we can get proper antitrust enforcement, we'll only see technological stagnation get worse as more products become boring billboard monopolies with little incentives to get better.

Nerdrotic 3mo ago

Charging for Windows Lite? Lawsuit in 3...2...1...

Nerdrotic 3mo ago

Charging for Windows Lite? Microsoft Lawsuit in 3...2...1...

andrewstuart 3mo ago

The politics is too powerful it will never truly happen. There WILL be something slightly lighter with the ability to move the taskbar.

jamiw 3mo ago

how are you supposed to approach this as "for developers" when you're removing one of the main things preinstalled on Windows that developers take advantage of? this post comes off as "someone who doesn't develop for windows coming up with a better windows". this isn't even mentioning all the enterprise stuff and the fact that an extremely large chunk of apps would cease to work. not to mention all of the other layers like GDI+ or gpu accelerated options like Direct2D

jeroenhd 3mo ago

Exactly, we need Windows Lite! Just Win32, media encoders, graphics drivers, CoPilot, and enough to run movie maker and Office, the rest is useless anyway! Or do you mean no Office support, just everything you need to run Steam? Or maybe you mean no UI and just the admin interface so you don't need all that bloat when all you need is a server. Except for Powershell and the management interface, of course. Actually, these days, we don't need applications, Copilot can do all that for us. Just Edge, Bing, and Copilot, the rest is bloat. There's plenty of unnecessary crap in Windows but everyone who wants Windows Lite wants a different subset to be included in Windows Lite. Just imagine the tech support hell you'd be in when a client installs your software on a machine that doesn't have .NET or H.264 support or libraries for decoding JPEGs or a webview because their kid said they can make the PC less bloated. And you can bet that Windows' remote help support and all of the requirements for third party remote desktop are omitted from anyone's view of "minimal Windows"! For what it's worth, various stripped-down Windows images exist online. They all use official Windows binaries with signed DLLs and everything so you could theoretically even verify that they're safe. Just don't expect your programs to work on them and be ready to reinstall when a system service inevitably corrupts.

taffydavid 3mo ago
> Exactly, we need Windows Lite! Just Win32, media encoders, graphics drivers, CoPilot, and enough to run movie maker and Office, the rest is useless anyway! I know you're trying to make a counter point, but nobody wants copilot. Out of everyone I've talked to in the last year, across a broad spectrum of Windows users from sys admins who make me feel like a caveman down to my parents, nobody trusts AI and nobody wants AI in their OS or apps. An AI free Windows would be an instant hit, but it would fly in the face of everything Microsoft stands for, so for that reason, it'll never happen

mattbee 3mo ago

Builders and gamers can install regular Windows. They can run a de-crapifying script to strip it right back - cut the AI, OneDrive, adverts etc. It flies along very predictably without that. So much is optional and easily removed. You don't even have to pay for it any more, never mind $49. For the power users that he's talking about, I don't see the issue. (I agree the default state for Windows is completely rotten, and it shouldn't be!)

while_true_ 3mo ago

Too late. In my household there are 4 desktops and one laptop. Wiped Windows and installed Debian with KDE Plasma. For our use it's a better "windows" than Windows. Not going back.

tombert 3mo ago

I mean, sure. OR, we just treat the Win32/Win64 API as the standard ABI for cross-platform stuff (that can't easily be done in the web with WASM) and then use Wine/Proton. Then everything is FOSS and portable and free and doesn't have a bunch of tracking bullshit. I feel like with gaming this is more or less becoming the reality. Disregarding online gaming [1], a lot of games are being written for "Windows" and being played on Linux. In reality, I think that a lot of newer games are kind of being written with Proton as the target, and the fact that they work on Windows is incidental. [1] Which I know you can't fully "disregard" but I don't think it kills my point.

Night_Thastus 3mo ago

No they don't. Why should they bother? * Costs them money to make * Costs them money to maintain * Will only be used by a TINY subset of ultra-enthusiasts (no, neither HN or Reddit are majorities) * Every user on it is less telemetry and less advertisement The reality is that most users don't care, and will just use whatever seems to work fine. Finding out that 'oh yeah, feature/software X does not work on Windows Lite" will inevitably mean that almost everyone stays on mainline. I don't get why people bother making these wish fulfillment posts regarding Windows. It is what it is, either get used to it or use something else. MS hasn't been listening and they aren't going to start. Your wallet and mine don't make even the tiniest dent in their bottom line.

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ramon156 3mo ago
I agree with your reasons but not with "the majority doesn't care". Sure they do. The internet is filled with Windows hate, and Reddit isn't as small as you remember it to be. The majority has no other option. Linux is too much trouble to learn and Mac requires a new device. What else are you supposed to do?
- LoganDark 3mo ago
  Hey, Mac is a huge learning experience too. If your mind is set in the ways of Windows, you are gonna have a bad time when you assume Mac is just as bad (easy example: using clunky Windows workarounds to avoid problems that don't exist on Mac). You almost become oblivious to the straightforward way of doing things because Windows is so fucky. It can be really hard to get an average person used to Windows to find value in Mac, because they don't naturally see the simplification to their workflow, they just expect Mac to work the same way (ie, for their workarounds to function the same way).
  - hypercube33 3mo ago
    Up until OS 26 I'd agree with you but honestly it's not far off from windows other than some small permissions annoyances and the stupid natural scrolling. I got a neo out of desperation to do some audio work and immediately felt at home where I never did on my older Air.

lowbloodsugar 3mo ago

Why not DOS? Why not windows 3.1? Well they are too old. win32? Also too old. This is what the .NET complaint is disguising. It's not DOS->3.1->3.11->win32->.NET and so lets just go back one place. It's DOS->3.1->3.11->win32->.NET 1.0->.NET 2.0->.NET 3.0? WPF->.NET 5...->WinUI. Along the way there's COM, DCOM, ActiveX, all sorts of terrible things!

jamiw 3mo ago
don't forget gdi+, direct2d, and pretty much every other layer built on win32 that are actively used because they're better than directly interfacing via win32

deleted 3mo ago

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jmmv 3mo ago

Two years ago, I spent time studying the Windows NT kernel internals and ended up writing a comparison against Unix here: https://blogsystem5.substack.com/p/windows-nt-vs-unix-design https://blogsystem5.substack.com/p/windows-nt-vs-unix-design . What I came out of that exercise with is that NT is actually well-made and was very ambitious and advanced at the time it was designed (although free systems have caught up by now). But what I also came out thinking was: none of that shows. The kernel is great, sure, but all of the crap that has been built on top doesn't let it shine, and that's what people interact with. Take Windows 11 with is dog-slow file manager and the overall feeling that everything is bloated and designed to annoy you. I wish there was a simpler edition... but it ain't gonna happen.

mdavid626 3mo ago
It's also interesting to see that after 30 years Windows NT is still a decent OS/kernel. Of course the rest of Windows is just pure garbage.

tom_ 3mo ago

Slightly struck by the term "builders" here. What is this trying to say, that, say, "developers" wouldn't? ("build" does seem to have been settled on as the word for the thing you do when you have the LLM write your code for you, but I'd have thought that "developer" is vague enough to cover both that and also doing it the old-fashioned way?)

627467 3mo ago

> Without Builders, you don't have software, and without software, you don't have users. This is why Microsoft needs Windows Lite. > Windows Lite is a stripped down version of Windows. No telemetry, Exactly. They already have telemetry, so in theory they know what they are doing (?)

sitzkrieg 3mo ago

windows 10 ltsc. zero issues so far

effnorwood 3mo ago

already did. called it xp. just fix that. done. you're welcome.

contextfree 3mo ago

The post doesn't really define the problem this is supposed to solve for "builders". FWIW, Microsoft's official attempt at solving this problem? seems to be "Windows developer configs" -> https://github.com/microsoft/WindowsDeveloperConfig https://github.com/microsoft/WindowsDeveloperConfig which is described as A WinGet Configuration (DSC) file that sets up a clean, lightweight, distraction-free developer workstation. The goal is a PC state that devs actually love using: no clutter, no noise, just the tools you need. (...) * A PC devs actually want to use. Clean Explorer, dark theme, no pop-ups, no recommendations, no widgets. Just your code and your tools. (...)

bitwize 3mo ago

Microsoft is in a pickle. Linux and open source have made "selling operating systems" nearly as preposterous as it was back in the mainframe era when they were getting started. So it's gotten very hard to generate revenue directly from Windows. Not even Apple is in the business of selling an OS—they sell hardware, and the OS comes as part of the package. Microsoft has kept good will amongst OEMs by keeping Windows license prices for hardware manufacturers low to nonexistent—were they to actually try making money through the OEM channel by charging a more reasonable price per license, the OEMs would find a way to jump ship to Linux (perhaps ChromeOS). This has already happened during the "netbook era" until Microsoft intervened with Windows 7 Starter Edition. The pivot for Windows has thus been to find ways for Windows to generate revenue indirectly—by funneling users into other Microsoft products and services, particularly cloud and AI in 2026. But this approach is creating the exact user-hostility problems people are complaining about. Without the ability to generate revenue directly, nor the ability to generate revenue indirectly through cloud services, Windows becomes a cost center rather than a profit center. So no, I don't see them going the Windows Lite route at all. If they cut out the fat, they cut off Windows's revenue stream and its reason for existing in the first place.

virajk_31 3mo ago

Windows has become a problem and users can never get rid of it.

pjmlp 3mo ago

> Windows Lite is a stripped down version of Windows. No telemetry, no spying, no ads, no AI, no .NET, nothing. Windows Lite is just win32 with a lightweight shell and graphics drivers. Not going to happen. Win32 is stuck in Windows XP, most modern development has been on .NET, even if the core components are implemented in C++, exposed via COM. PowerShell is all about .NET and COM interop.

da-x 3mo ago

ReactOS is already some sort of Windows Lite. And now with coding agents we can accelerate development on it.

PeterStuer 3mo ago

So no juicy 'telemetry' data for profiling, recurring revenue service tie-ins, advertizing revenue deals nor hefty 'store' margins? Somehow I don't see this happening.

vazark 3mo ago

That sounds like Windows Premium, not Lite. The annoying parts are the "features" that modern MS added intentionally

Melatonic 3mo ago

We already have it. It's called LTSC Or maybe we'll get a new more stripped down version of the "software engineer" deployment mode they released recently

smcleod 3mo ago

But does anyone actually need a Windows?

edgie123 3mo ago
At this point only a few people because of some software.

tpoacher 3mo ago

There is already a "Windows Lite", and it's called ReactOS [0]. Except, the last thing we need is for Microsoft to own / embrace-extend-exterminate this. It's best that it's kept as an independent project, enabling developers to target the Windows API if they feel like it, while ensuring that they only target the Wine-compatible parts of it, which then enables their software to also run seamlessly on other platforms at no extra effort, and without requiring either the users or the devs to have to lock themselves into this ungodly telemetry-spying-ads-AI-.NET mess that the article talks about. Microsoft, on the other hand, has zero to gain from making a Windows Lite variant themselves given their lifeline is exactly this telemetry-spying-ads-AI-.NET ecosystem; and they have zero to gain from absorbing ReactOS or similar projects, other than in order to eliminate them. [0] https://reactos.org/ https://reactos.org/

sph 3mo ago
I think the author meant something that can be used in practice for real work, not a cyclopean effort of clean room reimplementation of Windows as a hobby for part-time volunteers. The reality is as you said, only Microsoft can make Windows Lite, and they don’t care to.
- tpoacher 3mo ago
  Possibly, but that still doesn't mean there isn't a real benefit to developers developing for ReactOS as a proxy for developing for Windows in a manner that makes their products instantly compatible with Mac and Linux. The "real work" part is mostly about the user. And that depends on available programs on the platform, not on the user's boundless love for telemetry. OP seems to be mostly addressing developers here, so the point stands.

phpzmurf 3mo ago

user experience doesn't matter, where's the shareholder value?

mdavid626 3mo ago

It's hard to justify to pay for an operating system, when Linux and Mac OS is for free.

not_a_bot_4sho 3mo ago
I wouldn't call MacOS 'free' given it has very strict requirements for proprietary hardware.
- mdavid626 3mo ago
  Free in a sense that I don't have to pay extra for it (comes with the machine) and no extra fee for new versions either.
  - sixothree 3mo ago
    Windows comes with machines too. Just because it comes with an Apple computer does not mean you aren't paying for it. You certainly are paying for it.

runjake 3mo ago

This is essentially what the IoT Enterprise LTSC edition is. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/evalcenter/evaluate-windows-11-iot-enterprise-ltsc https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/evalcenter/evaluate-windows-... Aside from that, there are various tools and deployment files to automate a stripped down Windows 11 installation. I don't really use Windows except on my gaming PC, but I like winutil: https://github.com/christitustech/winutil https://github.com/christitustech/winutil But there are better declarative tools out there that generate a stripped down installation. Despite it's reputation, Windows 11 is fairly modular for a commercial OS.

pwdisswordfishq 3mo ago

In a roundabout way, this exists – it’s called Windows RE.

movetheworld 3mo ago

YES! I mean a man can dream... I love windows software like "xyplorer", an ideal explorer replacement, "notepad++" for everything text-related and "FSViewer" for displaying all pictures, all portable, all heavily customizable. But personally, I think microsoft is not interested in it's users. It all about control of it's users and making money off them. MS has no intention of changing that. Please, make the switch to linux and own your OS!

taffydavid 3mo ago

I used to have a custom ISO of Windows XP using Barts PE and a bunch of other tools. It would install a fairly stripped version of the OS that ran really well on old hardware. I probably still have it somewhere, but I still ended up on Windows 10 because most of the software I wanted (games, electron apps) wouldn't work on it anymore. But I genuinely miss having the ability to take the bloat out before you ever install the OS

Surac 3mo ago

omitting .net will cost you a big base of builders. just my 2 cents.

gorjusborg 3mo ago

Even at $45 I am still not interested. For actually building software, Linux is king. The OS is a commodity, and I largely do not have to think about it. For desktop use, sure, $45 could fly, but, the main draw of windows is compatibility with existing software, and honestly that is no longer worth it.

djsedaw 3mo ago

Instead we get Windows Shite!