8 ms·

Corruption means something legitimate is happening that can be corrupted. Maduro was president of a sovereign country. A bunch of kidnappers and murderers inv

• Rover222 5mo ago
  [flagged]
  • pasquinelli 5mo ago
    well tell us how it actually is then.
    • Rover222 5mo ago
      BBC was interviewing Iranians 2 days ago in Tehran and the majority said they support the war. Venezuelans are having political gatherings for the first time in a decade.
      • pasquinelli 5mo ago
        > BBC was interviewing Iranians 2 days ago in Tehran and the majority said they support the war. so you see something on tv and just believe the impression that it leaves you with. you actually think it's plausible that a majority of people in a city support the side of a conflict that is bombing that city? i'm sure a majority of people support the war; specifically they support the irgc in fighting back against america and israel, who have started a war of aggression against iran for no coherent reason.
        • Rover222 5mo ago
          You’re clueless.
• _alternator_ 5mo ago
  I get this sentiment, but I'll just make the classic "two wrongs don't make a right" rebuttal.
  • FpUser 5mo ago
    Problem is that only one kind of wrongs being chased. It is systemic and erodes trust
• mpalczewski 5mo ago
  > Maduro was president of a sovereign country. It's funny how we accept the importance given to that statement. when he's just some dude who took control of a country and gave himself that title. As if the social construction means anything in this situation.
  • Retric 5mo ago
    > and gave himself that title Declaring yourself president means nothing. I’m the president of planet earth and nothing changes. Similarly he could go by grand pimp and it would be just as meaningful. Legitimacy comes from all the people backing up his claim to control of the country. Further governments care about legitimacy because it’s way easier to assassinate leaders than win wars and leaders don’t want to be at risk. It’s pure self interest protecting each other.
  • hx8 5mo ago
    The idea of sovereignty is a cornerstone of how we organize our global society. This was an overt statement that the US controls South America, and that South America doesn't rule itself. Previously, we were relaying on covert methods for influence. The relationship with SA has materially changed. 1. The United States is willing to violate South American sovereignty. 2. South America has offered little resistance to this incident.
    • libertine 5mo ago
      That's correct that sovereignty is a cornerstone, but since the founding of the UN that doesn't mean you have a blank check to do whatever you want within the sovereignty of a country. Things like genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity, violating other countries sovereignty with no strong justification, development of nuclear weapons, etc. So there's a bunch of red lines that clearly some countries will step over the sovereignty line, thankfully so! I'm not saying the US was right about what they did in Venezuela, but clearly Maduro wasn't recognized as the president of Venezuela by venezuelans and many countries.
      • 5mo ago
• xp84 5mo ago
  If you think Hamas, the Islamic Republic, and Maduro are/were peace-loving good guys, I have a bridge to sell you. Whatever you think about the US, anyone who isn’t drowning in propaganda must know that those guys are at best no better, and they don’t have even a facade of a justice system that people wronged by those governments can turn to for relief. For instance, the moment the Gaza ceasefire allowed Hamas to continue to operate, we all witnessed them dragging their own citizens into the street and summarily executing them for supposed “collaboration.” But regardless of your opinion of the relative morality of the various parties, the days of the civilized world just sitting around and allowing things like October 7th to happen with no consequences appear to be over.
  • GamerUncle 5mo ago
    Nobody is saying that they are peace loving guys. But the zionists aren't any better, there is nothing that can justify the rapes and the genocide the US and particularly the zionists do. "we all witnessed them dragging their own citizens into the street and summarily executing them for supposed “collaboration.” " No we did not because most of us try not to consume Mossad propaganda. If you think that starving children, and settlers killing kids is a "justice system", If you think that stealing and destroying Lebanon is what the "civilized world" does, If you do not think that October 7 was the clear reaction to being starved to death, Then your definitions of civilization and justice are just fucked up.
  • tinfoilhatter 5mo ago
    [flagged]
  • pasquinelli 5mo ago
    > For instance, the moment the Gaza ceasefire allowed Hamas to continue to operate, we all witnessed them dragging their own citizens into the street and summarily executing them for supposed “collaboration.” wouldn't be the first time people from a group aided in the genocide of that group. what do you expect will happen to such people? it's easy to put quotes around the word "collaboration", but go on, tell us what you know about these people, make your case that they weren't actually collaborators.
  • 5mo ago
• lukan 5mo ago
  Well, it was disputed if he really was a legitimate president, but now it is clear, that the US government does not care about that either.
• amunozo 5mo ago
  These people only care about American lives, and fake to care when China or any other country they don't like attack anybody.
• troglodytetrain 5mo ago
  I guess thats one way to look at it. But thats morality for you. I'd just suggest maybe get less involved with the internet and as the kids say these days 'go touch some grass'. Because, frankly, I don't think the average, or even marginal Venezuelan would agree with you at all, as, they have actually had to deal with this dictator.
  • kaveh_h 5mo ago
    The dictator is labeled the ”dictator” because they’re under fire by US not because they’re an actual dictator. Look at gulf countries and the other dictators that US is partnered with like Al-Sisi in Egypt and the King of Jordan. Besides the regime did not change. It’s the same regime, the only difference is that US benefits (or some individual people or companies in the US) from this version.
    • troglodytetrain 5mo ago
      This is ridiculous cope. At least, I myself can provide some sources: Human Rights Foundation: https://hrf.org/latest/hrf-condemns-fraudulent-election-results-in-venezuela https://hrf.org/latest/hrf-condemns-fraudulent-election-resu... Carter Center: https://www.cartercenter.org/stories/center-finds-democracy-thwarted-in-venezuela/ https://www.cartercenter.org/stories/center-finds-democracy-... CSIS: https://www.csis.org/analysis/can-maduro-pull-mother-all-electoral-frauds https://www.csis.org/analysis/can-maduro-pull-mother-all-ele...
    • ErneX 5mo ago
      Plenty of evidence of huge human rights crimes under the Maduro regime, investigations made by United Nations. He also stole the elections. You can disagree with how he was removed but don’t give the guy legitimacy please, he’s a thug.
  • pasquinelli 5mo ago
    > Because, frankly, I don't think the average, or even marginal Venezuelan would agree with you at all, as, they have actually had to deal with this dictator. why do you think that? when was the last time you were in venezuela? first you tell someone to get off the internet for a bit and touch grass, then you gesture vaguely at what you think... which came from where exactly? different parts of the internet? cable news? where?
• bko 5mo ago
  You're apply the oppressor–oppressed framework. Basically Madura and his regime, along with Gaza, West Bank and others are the victims because they're less powerful and therefore above reproach? However US and Israel are currently powerful and therefore they are the only ones worthy of criticism and scorn? Gaza, for instance, is famously anti kidnapping.
  • benj111 5mo ago
    I think it's more a case of allies and enemies. Second the west likes to take the moral high ground. That involves holding them to a higher standard. Third, in cases such as Gaza, and the west bank, they don't have stable governments because of actions by Israel. You can't expect them to behave like a nation state in those circumstances, so yes I do expect more of Israel. Fwiw I'm British, I remember the troubles on Northern Ireland. I don't condone what the IRA did, but I would still expect my govt to behave better, even though I agree with them.
    • bko 5mo ago
      > Third, in cases such as Gaza, and the west bank, they don't have stable governments because of actions by Israel. You can't expect them to behave like a nation state in those circumstances, so yes I do expect more of Israel. Exactly. They are oppressed so are incapable of wrong. You can't expect them to not kidnap and murder people at a concert. Exactly my point
      • benj111 5mo ago
        I didn't say they are incapable of wrong. I'm saying you can't hold a group that doesn't have law and order, and therefore control to the same standard as a group that does have control. If protesters throw rocks at police, would you hold the entire group responsible? Even though most were there to protest peacefully? Would you take the same view if it was the police throwing rocks?
        • bko 5mo ago
• bluegatty 5mo ago
  This is problematic on every account. Primarily - the issue at hand is the legality of 'insider information' with in institutions. But the bigger issue is how shameful it is that people can't see the absolute horror beyond their little local ideologies or political beliefs. Maduro is one of the worst tyrants in the world, responsible for murder and imprisonment of any number of innocents and political dissidents, and the direct cause of millions of people displaced. Venezuela is truly a horrible place, the country has fallen apart, Chavizmo has no popular legitimacy, he lost the election and remained in power. It's impossible to speak of 'sovereignty' in that context. What happened to Maduro was a 'net positive' - it was in fact, a crude form of 'net justice'. It has nothing to do with Gaze, Syria, Iran etc.. And it has little to do with the cronyism of the Trump regime. It's fair to question legality of actions, but the fact that people could see Maduro is anything but a criminal in the most common sense, is beyond pale. That's the real issue here actually, the inability for people to contextualize complex issues especially in light of basic moral concerns. The violence against all hose people in Gaza is bad. Maduro is bad. Corruption in the White House is bad. Selective Justice is bad. Special forces placing bets on Polymarket is bad. They are different things.
• benj111 5mo ago
  So it's ok for a cop to demand payment from random people because his bosses are corrupt? If the entire enterprise is rotten, it's because it is corrupted. Unless you're an anarchist you have to accept that a democratic nation state is a legitimate enterprise that is corruptable. I don't think you can say some sub level enterprise X layers down isn't corrupt because the levels above are corrupting that legitimate core.
• ErneX 5mo ago
  He was the illegitimate president, he stole the last elections. Plenty of evidence of it. Add to that all the human rights crimes they committed (national guard death squads who killed in the thousands on the poorest areas of the country just to name one). This was investigated by the UN, led by Michelle Bachelet (former president of Chile).
  • mrguyorama 5mo ago
    But we did not depose his regime, we just stole him. Not like the US could reliably depose a foreign regime anyway, but this shouldn't be accepted as an excuse. He indeed was an illegitimate ruler, but that is completely unrelated to what we did.
    • ErneX 5mo ago
      I’m not debating that. But as Venezuelan I’d like to put that in context. Because it’s important as well. For us even if you think it’s weird it is a glimmer of hope. A bit of justice even if the regime is still in power.
      • mrguyorama 5mo ago
        I want to reject such complicated feelings because I don't want the mild support of what our Administration did, and the intrinsic violation of Venezuelan sovereignty, but real life is complicated and things are complicated. I just want better. But we so rarely get that. Good Luck. Hopefully we are done with our meddling for now.
      • SarasaNews 5mo ago
        [dead]
  • caycep 5mo ago
    that being said, if your method of removal is also illegitimate, it doesn't really help the situation
  • fireflash38 5mo ago
• hakrgrl 5mo ago
  > Maduro was president of a sovereign country. Since 2013, Venezuela has been suffering a socioeconomic crisis under Maduro. He stole the last two elections and remained in power even though he had not legitimately won. Numerous international bodies and human rights organizations have found that Nicolás Maduro and his government committed extensive human rights violations. These violations have been ongoing since at least 2014 as part of a systematic plan to repress dissent. State security forces and allied armed groups (colectivos) have been implicated in thousands of unlawful or politically motivated killings and arbitrary arrests of protesters, opposition leaders, and perceived critics. Immediately after the latest presidential election, at least 24 people died as a result of the government’s repression of protests against the appointment of Nicolás Maduro. Most of these killings could amount to extrajudicial executions. Two of the victims were children.
  • OsrsNeedsf2P 5mo ago
    While I understand your sentiment, it doesn't justify what happened. Think back to January 6 - Imagine if every foreign government assumed it was stolen and decided they should take matters into their own hands. Would it help, or hurt America?