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What kids told us about how to get them off their phones
- khangaroo 1y agohttps://archive.is/zYuHd https://archive.is/zYuHd
- kevingadd 1y ago> Since the 1980s, parents have grown more and more afraid that unsupervised time will expose their kids to physical or emotional harm. In another recent Harris Poll, we asked parents what they thought would happen if two 10-year-olds played in a local park without adults around. Sixty percent thought the children would likely get injured. Half thought they would likely get abducted. > These intuitions don’t even begin to resemble reality. According to Warwick Cairns, the author of How to Live Dangerously, kidnapping in the United States is so rare that a child would have to be outside unsupervised for, on average, 750,000 years before being snatched by a stranger. I wonder how we ended up in a situation where people think Stranger Danger is this bad. Is it just from TV and the internet inflating the danger to drive views/clicks? In many areas crime has been trending down but people seem to think things are more dangerous than ever, in general. It baffles me.
- jeffbee 1y agoI don't get it either, especially because I don't know any parents who act like this. All the kids in my neighborhood just roam around, including mine. I wonder if this is another coastal/inland, liberal/conservative rift where the conservatives are for some reason afraid of everything.
- erikerikson 1y agoOur experience of Seattle, conservative hotbed that it is, is that everything is as described in the article. We've been discussing moving somewhere else for this exact reason. Doesn't matter if we would let our kid out if there's no one to play with.
- busterarm 1y agoLive in the Carolinas. All of the neighborhood kids play together outside every afternoon. The teenagers are all too busy to loiter around because they're so involved in sports.
- jeffbee 1y agoMaybe it's yet another Berkeley bubble. Kids' independence is pretty much taken for granted here. Nobody would bat an eye at a 10-year-old wandering around in the grocery store. There's a playground at the marina that is built by and continually remodeled by children (there is some overall supervision there of course).
- CalRobert 1y agoThis is why we moved to the Netherlands. It’s great. Some kids even bike themselves to and from daycare.
- dcow 1y agoOver parenting and hyper-paranoia are liberal traits in my experience.
- tstrimple 1y agoYep. It's the liberals who are taking over school boards to restrict book access because their precious little snowflakes might learn something outside the strict bounds of what they are allowed to know and understand. Could you imagine the absolute travesty it would be if little Billy knew that gay people existed and were actually just people?! Preposterous!
- yonaguska 1y agoI see it as less political, more "crunchy" vs standard- it's just that recently the crunchy crowd has shifted conservative as opposed to liberal.
- jeffbee 1y agoWell, I haven't observed that. Research this century has tended to suggest that conservatism is associated with physiological hyper-fixation on negative stimuli. E.g. Carraro L, Castelli L, Macchiella C. The automatic conservative: ideology-based attentional asymmetries in the processing of valenced information. PLoS One. 2011
- inglor_cz 1y agoIt might be a correlation to city size. Big cities in the US skew overwhelmingly liberal/left, and big cities are the place where trust between strangers, neighbors etc. tends to be very low. People probably feel safer to let their kids go outside if the local drug-and-homeless community is small or nonexistent.
- bandofthehawk 1y agoI think it might be less about left/right and more about suburban and car culture vs. urban or rural. People living in the suburbs tend to drive everywhere anyway and perceive things outside of the car as dangerous.
- jeffbee 1y agoI feel like the two things are in a causal loop.
- bpt3 1y agoReporting from the conservative stronghold of the inner DC suburbs, kids are generally not allowed to wander unsupervised until they are in high school. In my experience, kids have very little unscheduled/unsupervised time in more liberal areas, but I think that has little to nothing to do with political leanings and much more to do with parental expectations and availability of disposable income and leisure time. Maybe you should try viewing things outside of a political lens, especially one where the other side is unexplainably but unquestionably wrong by default, and see how things look.
- jader201 1y ago> In many areas crime has been trending down but people seem to think things are more dangerous than ever, in general. I’m not saying you’re wrong, or that I disagree that Stranger Danger is overblown. But is it possible that part of the reason crime is down is because of Stranger Danger? I’m not suggesting it is, just that I can’t say with certainty that it isn’t.
- ceedan 1y ago> But is it possible that part of the reason crime is down is because of Stranger Danger? Yes. This is a really soft question. Sure, part of the reason that crime is down could possibly be due to stranger danger. On the flip side, over-parenting has negative consequences on kids who have no freedom. I believe the same poll had said that most kids had never walked down a grocery store aisle by themselves and weren't allowed to play outside in front of their house w/o a parent.
- bryanlarsen 1y agoYes, that is a good question. It is generally answered in longer form treatments, like Skenazy's "Free Range Kids" book. The answer is that the rate of crime on kids committed outside by strangers is down, even after you adjust for less time outside.
- amanaplanacanal 1y agoChildren are much more likely to be sexually assaulted by family members and trusted friends than strangers. We don't like to think about that though, so we redirect our fears to stranger danger.
- busterarm 1y agoI'm a child of the 80s and was a pretty independent kid from an early age growing up in NYC. I spent a lot of time in the city's libraries, arcades, etc. I went to and from school (and generally started navigating Manhattan) on my own starting in first grade. From the time I was 6 until I turned about 14, pedophiles were all over me like flies on shit. They would follow me home from the library. They would come up behind me at Playland Arcade (in Times Square) and grope me or masturbate. I would just freeze and let this happen -- I had to be taught by someone to physically fight them off. I think we both overestimate and underestimate the risk. Not intending to victim blame, but predators of a certain type tend to all find the same people to victimize. If you're the type of person that gets targeted, then this is a serious problem to worry about.
- techdmn 1y agoI've heard a few things on this. One is that there were a few high profile but very bad cases in the 80s, kids getting kidnapped and trafficked with law enforcement not really willing to even look into it. The odds are infinitesimal, but the cost of the negative outcome is very, very high. Second is kids getting run over by cars. Comparatively that happens all the time. Third is a general breakdown of social connection with people in your neighborhood.
- dcow 1y agoDo kids really get hit by cars at a level that would materially impact the “let them play in the park” calculus?
- thefaux 1y agoWhen I was a kid in the 90s, I knew multiple kids who were severely injured by cars. For whatever reason, this did not seem to have any impact on my mother's parenting and no new limits were placed on my freedom as a result. For the record though, one of the kids I knew who was hit was leaving the property of their school with plenty of adult supervision around at the time of the collision (and received a large settlement from the school).
- mingus88 1y agoAdam Walsh was 7yo and abducted from a Sears. His parents left him to play Atari while they shopped. They made a movie about it in 1983. Politicians introduced new laws around it. His father John Walsh went on to host Americas Most Wanted on TV for 24 seasons. Prime time TV whipped up a culture of fear for that entire generation. Kids growing up with that culture are parents now. Not surprised to see these results.
- amtamt 1y ago> United States is so rare that a child would have to be outside unsupervised for, on average, 750,000 years before being snatched by a stranger. Is this stat from 1980s or recent? If recent, what may be the likelihood that such stats are the outcome of parents' paranoia?
- lm28469 1y agoThere are 300 kid abductions per year in the US, more or less the same amount of people who got struck by lightning or the same about of kids who drown in swimming pool. I don't see any hysteria around two of these topics though
- mhuffman 1y agoIs that 300 kid abductions by strangers? Because just based on the amber alerts that I get where the police suspect a parent that number can not possibly be correct if not.
- rimunroe 1y ago> Is that 300 kid abductions by strangers? Correct. The number of abductions of children by their parents is three orders of magnitude higher.
- BobaFloutist 1y agoI mean I certainly see a lot of talk about swimming pools being extremely dangerous for kids. Gun ownership advocates in particular love to bring up the stat that it's more dangerous for a household with kids to have a swimming pool than a gun.
- dr_dshiv 1y agoMy son recently had to get rabies shots. Well, that was the recommendation because there was a bat in the sleeping quarters of his camp. The probability that the bat had rabies is vanishingly small. Just like the probability that the bat bit him with no marks. But, you read about rabies (no cure, horrible death), and even if it is a 1-10 million chance and you can do something about it — well, he got the shot (over my protest!). I think this is similar — child abducted and god knows what happens to them? And it’s your fault as a parent for not supervising? Even a 1-in-10 million chance seems like too much. It’s not rational, but I think that’s the psychology. It is countered by mentioning the side effects of the vaccine —in this case, identifying the potential harms of over-supervision.
- danaris 1y agoGetting a rabies shot is a much less onerous protective measure than preventing kids from playing unsupervised for their entire childhoods.
- jgwil2 1y ago> The probability that the bat had rabies is vanishingly small. Not really, it's something like 5%. Usually if the bat can be captured and tested for rabies you can wait to get the vaccine, but if the bat couldn't be caught, it makes sense to vaccinate just in case. I don't understand why you would want to take a chance on rabies. What are the side effects of the vaccine that are so harmful?
- dr_dshiv 1y agoPost exposure vaccine is costly: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/7/16851134/rabies-treament-expensive-emergency-room https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/7/16851134/ra...
- mhuffman 1y agoI get a similar response when talking with other parents about allowing phones in school. We know that there are 130k+ schools in the US, and that a school shooting is statistically very, very small, however they still want to have a way for their children to contact them (or for them to contact their kids) if this happens. The mothers, in particular, all agree on this in my circle.
- hombre_fatal 1y agoI reckon there's also a feedback loop where places have fewer kids running around for these reasons so you don't want to be among the first to release your kids there especially as a new parent. Compared to moving in to a place that already has kids running around doing things.
- kasperni 1y ago> Fewer than half of the 8- and 9-year-olds have gone down a grocery-store aisle alone; Really? Is this just an American thing?
- richardlblair 1y agoCan't speak for others, but my 3yr old has definitely gone done an aisle alone. Much to my dismay, but alas, it did happen. These are the things that happen when you don't put your kid in carts and strollers all the time. It also has the added benefit that he interacts with a lot of strangers while we're about 10ft away. It's good for him to learn that people are usually good.
- x187463 1y agoWorth considering how car-centric America is. An 8-year-old is unlikely to have access to a grocery store to which they can independently travel. Once they're at the store with a parent, they'll just travel the aisles together. It's not as though many young children have the funds to make purchasing decisions, anyway.
- bryanlarsen 1y agoNote that they're talking about an aisle alone, not about going to the grocery store alone. My kids were older than 8 the first time they walked to the grocery store by themselves, but I'm confident that I told them "you go grab the peanut butter you like" while I was grabbing something in a different aisle when they were around kindergarten age.
- jeltz 1y agoMaybe not just but in Sweden that is not normal. There are a few crazy helicopter parents like that but not 50%.
- 28304283409234 1y ago> That’s why we’re so glad that groups around the country are experimenting with ways to rebuild American childhood ... There's nothing specifically 'American' about this.
- jgwil2 1y agoThe degree to which childhood independence has been curbed appears to be more extreme in the United States than in other countries.
- throwaway22032 1y agoThe whole stranger danger thing in my view as an adult feels like a downward spiral. It's not like this in many countries. In the UK it's kind of like - kids don't wander about alone because they might run into baddies, and now adults are afraid to interact with kids because they might be seen as a baddy, and this kind of loops around until no-one is interacting. Basically, it's like any adult man is seen as a potential child predator, when in reality it's some tiny tiny fraction and in an ideal world we would be able to assume that they get sectioned / locked up quickly so we don't have to worry about it. Meanwhile I can travel around many parts of Asia, for example, and parents and children alike have no issue interacting with strangers.
- closewith 1y agoIn the UK, about 5% of children have been sexually abused. Nobody wants to risk that happening to their children and it's mostly perpetrated by people known to the children, so trust is understandably at an all time low.
- gjadi 1y agoBut since it's mostly by people close to the children, the fear of the stranger is not justified.
- closewith 1y agoRight, but parents don't trust anyone in the community, so stranger danger teaches kids to avoid any adults outside the immediate family and it's not unwarranted. For every Madeline McCann, there are literally millions of children abused.
- akudha 1y agonow adults are afraid to interact with kids because they might be seen as a baddy This only applies to men though, as if all men are predators by default. There are cases where a single adult man was refused entry into a park, mom calling the cops on a single adult man in a park who was minding his own business etc. As you pointed out, this doesn't seem like an issue in Asia, at least not yet. No wonder men do not want to become teachers. Why risk your freedom, reputation? I'd blame the media (especially right wing media) whose entire business model is fear mongering about everything/everyone
- kleiba 1y ago> But most of the children in our survey said that they aren’t allowed to be out in public at all without an adult. Fewer than half of the 8- and 9-year-olds have gone down a grocery-store aisle alone; more than a quarter aren’t allowed to play unsupervised even in their own front yard. This is probably a uniquely US problem because after we moved to Europe, we noticed that we see kids without their parents nearby all the time. But, this does not automatically imply that children here spend less time on their phones, we often talk with other parents about it and almost everyone thinks that their kids have too much screen time.
- zelphirkalt 1y agoAnd that is probably a symptom of pedestrian friendly city design, compared to car centric design.
- mtalantikite 1y ago> ...we asked parents what they thought would happen if two 10-year-olds played in a local park without adults around. Sixty percent thought the children would likely get injured. Half thought they would likely get abducted. During summer vacation when I was 10 (early 90s) I'd leave the house in the morning and head down to the local park to play basketball or roam the neighborhood with the other kids. We'd ride our bikes to wherever we wanted, and aside from stopping back to eat lunch and dinner, I'd be out until the streetlights went on. I don't recall any major injuries, aside from getting scraped or bumped up from time to time.
- gambiting 1y agoAt 7 years old my parents would leave for work before I had to go to school, so I had to eat breakfast, dress myself and go to school, locking the door behind me - the walk was across few busy streets which I was told how to cross. Then I would come back before they were home so likewise, I had to let myself in and just wait for them to come back. I think nowadays if I did that with my son I would have child services called on me.
- throw0101a 1y ago* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latchkey_kid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latchkey_kid
- 83457 1y agoI can't tell if you are advocating for that to still be common. Regardless, I just want to point out the survivor bias in anyone saying this should still be done based on stories like this one. The children in similar circumstances who were killed aren't here to talk about it. (Not trying to be rude)
- jeffbee 1y agoDo you think there was widespread death of latchkey kids in the 80s? Get a grip.
- zabzonk 1y agoAnyone know when this all changed? At the age of 5 I used to walk to school alone without me or my parents worrying. That would have been about 1958/9.
- bryanlarsen 1y agoIt was a fairly continuous change since WW2, I think. https://www.reddit.com/r/CasualUK/comments/v8cyi7/map_comparing_four_generations_of_kids_how_far/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CasualUK/comments/v8cyi7/map_compar...
- amanaplanacanal 1y agoMy theory is that it has something to do with infant mortality and family size. Kids are seen as more precious now, so they are protected from every possible danger. This is probably quite negative for the kids though.
- bryanlarsen 1y agoI can't imagine hardening myself enough to be able to accept a 10% - 50% chance of losing a child before the age of 5.
- colechristensen 1y agoIt became a thing with advertisements and the evening news prompting parents "Do you know where your children are?" from the late 60s to the 90s. It became the mission of television news and similar to make parents afraid because fear gets attention so horror stories about abducted and abused children were everywhere which resulted in the current situation in America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_you_know_where_your_children_are%3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_you_know_where_your_childre...
- lm28469 1y agoDepends on the country, I was in eastern europe over winter and there were kids sledging by themselves between buildings, on the local hill, &c. some weren't much older than 5. That was in the second largest city of the country, not some small village where people know everyone.
- dyeje 1y ago“What kids told us about how to get off cigarettes” While I agree there’s a problem with how helicopter-y society is with kids these days, I think it’s ridiculous to expect kids to resist a device that is designed to be addictive. Teams of tens of thousands of the most highly skilled people in the world are laser focused on squeezing every second of attention out of _adults_ let alone kids. We need regulation, full stop. I don’t know what that looks like, but if you’ve ever seen a toddler scrolling TikTok like a zombie you should know what’s at stake.
- jacknews 1y ago"always available and will cater to a child’s every whim. But AI will never fulfill children’s deepest desires." I'm pretty sure it will be able satisfy almost every desire. But I think there's quite a confusion about desire, even deep desire, and deep needs and what's ultimately good for us. Capitalism makes the same mistake.