7 ms·

ADHD and managing your professional reputation

132 points by vaishnav92 2y ago

Retr0id 2y ago
> it's like trying to teach advanced machine learning to someone with an IQ of 100. No matter how well-intentioned the advice or how clear the potential benefits, there's a fundamental mismatch between the cognitive requirements of the task and the available cognitive machinery. This obviously isn't core to the point OP is making, but I find it hard to believe that someone of "average" intelligence can't learn about advanced machine learning.
- Aeolun 2y ago
  Maybe if they really like math? I think there’s probably some correlation to being able to easily reason about these things and enjoyment. So while you could teach anyone, with enough effort, they would not actually enjoy the experience.
- nrnrjrjrj 2y ago
  I think they are right. Advanced ML requires both IQ and career dedication. Doing say the intro YT series building yoyr own LLM and understanding and sucessfully using PyTorch data strucutres in 3 even 4 dimensional (as in an array of array of array of arrays) doing matrix algebra... I would say this gets possible at 120 and only easy at 140 at a guess. Edit: i am serious
  - calebkaiser 2y ago
    Anecdotally, as part of my job, I've taught ML concepts to a lot of people. I don't know if I've ever worked with anyone who was simply too "unintelligent" to grasp things. The bottleneck, as for most things in my experience, is time and motivation. In any niche of ML, there's just a lot of things to learn, particularly if you aren't starting with a particularly math-y background.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - hilux 2y ago
      You were probably working at a fairly advanced tech company. As were the people you were teaching. If by "ML concepts" you mean "how to implement ML" - do you really think that people who got to a job that required learning this, represent the population IQ distribution?
  - jdjdnndn 2y ago
    I cannot tell if you are serious.
- Spooky23 2y ago
  I think it is core — the premise is that ADHD in some presentations makes basic administrative/maintenance activity difficult or impossible. With machine learning, the concept or layman level explanation to support the application of the tech is definitely doable for the average person. But the average person won’t be able to get the math. Folks I know with ADHD generally adapt well, with systems or coaching that they get from professionals or folks supporting them. Everyone is different, of course, and folks struggle with different things. He’s right with the other stuff too imo. People who deliver get grace from non-core failures.
- jalalx 2y ago
  What is obvious is that OP is really into IQ elitism. Looking at the ‘A More Realistic Framework’ suggestions, it asks people to aim for the bare minimum.
  - bluSCALE4 2y ago
    No, it's not suggesting the bare minimum. It's asking the person to openly do what can be proven to provide the best value as long as the missed administrative tasks or fails are down-playable enough to not damage your reputation. This is a very easy framework for me to funnel my thought process through. Recently, I've been in the position where I'm the only one taking ownership of new work and initiatives, sometimes to my own detriment. For example, I took on a feature that required an entire validation system be put in place. Though I succeeded in successfully completing the system, the feature was not fully complete. The validation system was not visible. Though if leverage, it would lighten everyones load, it largely went unnoticed and what was observed was that I pushed out a buggy feature. Though I resolved the bugs within a sprint, my reputation was damaged to the point where I took on a new feature and promised it would be done in a sprint. I succeeded but wasn't able to complete it due to the api team only finishing 2-3 of 8 apis. This sort of test I made for myself also had low visibility so even though it was an impressive feat by my team's efforts, it also largely went unnoticed. Though the author is wrong to equate work-throughput with IQ, he's right to find a way to inform trusted management with this work ethic and he's right to make sure when high value tasks are taken on, that it be made clear to product so credit can be given. I have team members that are doing the bare minimum but cross lots of t's and dot many i's and that gets them equal recognition as me who often misses deadlines but does lots of heavy lifting.
    - lukas099 2y ago
      On the bright side, what you’re doing sounds more fun than crossing lots of t’s
      - bluSCALE4 2y ago
        Funny you say that. I always describe my job as fun. Just have to have the main product manager in your corner.
- lr4444lr 2y ago
  How many people of 100 IQ could even develop a working knowledge of the necessary linear algebra? Most college students I took it with, probably average a standard deviation higher, did pretty middling in the class.
- TimTheTinker 2y ago
  > can't learn about advanced machine learning. There's a difference between grokking an ELI5 explanation and being able to build, modify, or review an existing ML model
  - Retr0id 2y ago
    And that difference is mostly down to having domain-specific knowledge, which is not something an IQ test measures.
- hilux 2y ago
  Can someone with a IQ of 100 (whatever that means) understand and implement stochastic gradient descent? Maybe - but very possibly not.
- mewpmewp2 2y ago
  It is interesting that you did opt to add in the word "about".
adhd4k 2y ago
I was diagnosed with ADHD but I still think of myself as a lazy cunt. That probably doesn't help reputation either, I'm sure I project this belief outwards, even unintentionally. Other ADHD-afflicted individuals I've talked to about this report similar.
- brightmood 2y ago
  My neurologist has a LOTS of patients. All of those with either Autism or ADHD / similar symptoms claim that they feel they don't get enough work done. I start to believe that we are overly self-critical, and that the actual workers are having better ways of hiding their incompetence :D
  - Aeolun 2y ago
    Not working with too many people better than me has been terrible for my learning, but amazing for my self-confidence.
  - wahern 2y ago
    If you felt satisfied with your productivity, why would you seek help? So there's definitely a selection bias there. Likewise for those whose "locus of control"[1] is biased toward external factors--i.e. you ascribe lack of success to factors outside yourself. Similarly, AFAIU, time and energy spent in self-reflection also tends to positively correlate with neuroticism--e.g. feelings of guilt and inadequacy. If you're not high on self-reflection (there's a negative correlation with extroversion), you're less likely to experience negative self-esteem, at least in a conscious way. I know ADHD correlates more strongly with some personality types than others, but by and large I believe people with ADHD (like everybody else) are spread across the spectrum along all these various axes, and it's only at some ends of certain axes that they're likely to seek assistance for themselves. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_of_control https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_of_control
  - llamaLord 2y ago
    > overly self-critical IMO this relates heavily to Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria and ND people's propensity to maximise negative self-perception and minimise positive.
aleksiy123 2y ago
There's is sort of a natural efficiency in forgetting some things. Sort of a sieve of things that weren't worth doing anyways.
- falcolas 2y ago
  It's less useful that the things most often set aside are the most mundane but required parts of life. For example: brushing your teeth. Showering. Getting prescriptions. Scheduling and following through with doctor's appointments. Paying bills (thank the gods for autopay). House repairs. Calling someone to do house repairs. Going to meetings at work. Remembering to leave for work on time. Remembering your wallet. And so forth.
nrnrjrjrj 2y ago
Maybe I have something like thus but admin tasks are a real challenge. Monday morning my heart wants to code and be in flow... but I know I need to plan future initatives, communicate stuff and worst of all make phone calls for personal stuff.
MarkMarine 2y ago
I have to constantly fight the struggle OP is describing, and one thing I’ve never tried is being upfront and honest about my shortcomings… I just get upset with myself and start writing post it notes about doing better, actions to take, and sticking them all over the place. I can’t even imagine the world where I share this about myself and it’s well received by people who, at the core, just want me to deliver a very steady stream of work they can plan for.
- falcolas 2y ago
  You don't always need to announce it to everyone. You can try talking to HR and asking for accommodations (which someone with ADHD is eligible for through the ADA). And the nice thing there is you don't have to tell anyone else. Accommodations can include things as simple as leeway for coming in late, or with deadlines. They can even go up to removing specific requirements from your role. It's worth asking what's available at least.
Aurornis 2y ago
I volunteer as a mentor in a group where most mentees are recent college grads or early 20s juniors. ADHD is a perennial topic of discussion because most of them (no exaggeration) have either received a diagnosis or have self-diagnosed as ADHD. One very common struggle I see is when they take internet advice that tells them it’s okay to offload their own struggles on to other people. Unfortunately this blog gives similar advice: > Focus on managing how your limitations affect others rather than trying to eliminate those limitations. This means: > Being explicitly upfront about your administrative weaknesses early in relationships > Giving trusted contacts alternative ways to reach you when truly urgent > Building a reputation for being aware of your limitations rather than in denial about them This commonly translates to them adopting ADHD as part of their public persona within the company, which they believe will grant them some degree of protection from consequences. From what I’ve observed: More often than not this provides a false sense of security. They don’t intend for it to become a free pass, but after “coming out” as ADHD they get the wrong impression that the pressure is now off. I think they intend to continue working on becoming better at managing their struggles, but it’s really easy to let the opposite happen: Once they think their diagnosis can be used as an excuse, they relax and let their behavior slip even further. So be careful about getting the wrong idea from this line of thinking. It is good to acknowledge your difficulties and do things like ask other people to follow up if you don’t reply in a timely manner. It is important that you own up when you’ve dropped the ball. However, none of these things should be interpreted as a free pass or a loophole that shields you from consequences. That line of thinking, in my experience, is where people get themselves in trouble.
- ok_dad 2y ago
  Imagine telling a quadriplegic something like this, though. The neurodiverse, which ADHD is a part, are always being told we still need to measure up to the standards of the non-disabled in some form or another. It’s always about how we shouldn’t offload our struggles on others. There’s no wheelchair for us, almost no one cares if our workplaces aren’t accommodating.
  - falcolas 2y ago
    100% this. This often manifests as "It's not your fault but it is your responsibility." Which is a great thinking framework when it helps you accept what you have and do what you can do mitigate it. But here's the kicker: our "what we can do" will never be enough to be neurotypical. We'll need help, even when we're using all our coping mechanisms. And if we don't get that help, the outcome is simple: we're going to fail.
sibeliuss 2y ago
This article hits home so precisely -- not personally but in terms of those who I've worked with in the past, and in particular the reputation bits. It was been painful to watch, to be honest, because the impact on our team had been so acute, and it simply never got better after so much effort on the part of management, other engineers, etc. Where I diverge with base assumptions however is that I suspect these particular people had been misdiagnosed with ADHD, were given medication, and it was the medication that led them to drop the ball. Why? Basic physiological needs were never being met, again and again. They were constantly reporting insomnia, missing meals, fatigue and all of the things you associate with stimulants being either misused or abused. Having _been there_, it was easy to spot. And I think this sort of thing is tragically common in our field, and is rarely confronted because of identity issues associated with medical labels.
- ok_dad 2y ago
  You’re not a doctor.
- binoct 2y ago
  You seem to be saying that people presenting with classic symptoms of ADHD clearly don’t have it because stimulant abuse can also cause those symptoms? Sure, people get misdiagnosed or purposely lie to get meds, but tons of people legitimately have the condition. Insomnia, poor basic self care, and fatigue (hello insomnia among others) are 100% symptoms of the condition. Taking medication doesn’t “fix” ADHD, it helps some people cope better in some ways.
  - sibeliuss 2y ago
    I'm speaking only to the high rate of over-prescription and misdiagnosis (this is a fact), and how it's very likely that more than a few people are finding their lives more difficult with medication. The potential for spiraling out is certainly there with amphetamines, and it can sneak up on you, especially when basic physiological needs are no longer being met. Having known these people for a good while, I think they fell squarely into this category.
jdjdnndn 2y ago
Never have I ever read such a pile of bull. Of cause everybody prefers the new and shiny but not executing on what's important is simply lazyness and lack of will. The cherry on top is the comparison of the impossibly of teaching advanced machine learning to someone of average IQ -- clearly indicating that they assume to be of higher IQ since they have grasped that topic. OP seems to be a low performer thinking of himself as high performer held back by circumstances and not themselves
- binoct 2y ago
  Your comment comes off uninformed and rather nasty. Do you also think that people with depression are just lazy as well? I highly recommend taking at least a little time to read up on our current (highly limited) understanding of brain science. I do agree the use of “average” IQ as a disqualifier for understanding ML is pretty rotten though.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- ivewonyoung 2y ago
  > Of cause everybody prefers the new and shiny but not executing on what's important is simply lazyness and lack of will. Then explain why do mice that were modified to have similar deficits in neurotransmitters exhibit the exact same "lazyness and lack of will". https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-024-02893-0 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-024-02893-0 In normal people, dopamine and norepinephrine are released in certain parts of the brain while performing routine and administrative tasks and also anticipation. In people with ADHD, it doesn't happen properly. If a (cruel and unethical) experiment was performed on you where your dopamine signaling was lowered, you'd understand this in a jiffy.
- Disruptive_Dave 2y ago
  May I suggest not downvoting this into oblivion? We need to shine a light on this type of thinking, as it is representative of many others towards ADHDers (including many ADHDers themselves...). I have this wrestling match internally on the daily - "Am I being lazy right now or suffering from ADHD? Can I power through with determination and grit, or soften my approach and do an end-around using tactics learned in therapy?" Magnify that x1000000. We've all encountered (in person or online) self-diagnosers, and even worse, those who make ADHD their entire personality, and calls for the world to change itself to make life easier for others. If that's your most frequent engagement with ADHD, I get how you could have OP's type of response.
zeroonetwothree 2y ago
I have ADHD and sometimes my brain wants to do admin work but sometimes it doesn’t. It’s actually hard to predict, so that makes it even worse. If I do the admin stuff one time then people assume I’ll always do it but then next time I let it slip and that has negative consequences. It kind of feels like I’m just a passenger and my subconscious is doing the driving in terms of my decisions if what to focus on.
quacked 2y ago
I "have" ADHD, although I don't believe in it conceptually and I don't take any drugs for it. I think if you poly-score people on impulse control, attention span, time sensitivity, organic recall of pertinent time-sensitive information, etc. you'll find that if you arrange all the scores from best to worst everyone under the 40th percent mark "has ADHD". Below maybe the 10th percentile you'll find that without stimulants it's unlikely that the person will function well in a task-based time-sensitive environment with delayed feedback loops for task completion. Accepting the framing that ADHD does exist, it feels like brain damage. Every year growing up, in any group of kids I was among the most immature, the most off-task, the most distracted, and the most forgetful. I am plenty smart, move very quickly, and have accomplished plenty, but my entire life has been defined by being more bored, forgetful, and immature than nearly every single person I've been close to. My wife (performs very well on relevant metrics) says it's extremely noticeable and unusual from the outside. Over time I've learned to heavily lean on coping mechanisms (my phone rings about 35 times per day with timers I snooze tactically, I leave my keys in my bag any time I go places so I can't leave without the bag, etc.) No amount of character development schemes, punishments, shaming, positive skill practicing etc. has changed my natural proclivities in the slightest, although many days of good sleep and diet can sometimes produce a bit of a sustained flow state. Sometimes I wonder if I just lack some kind of ion in my blood. My coworkers sometimes tell me they feel like they have ADHD. Then I watch them listen to someone talk about a subject they find boring for 5 minutes without drifting off or fidgeting, and then remember off the top of their heads to respond to outstanding emails. Come on guys, if we're going to make up conditions we should at least reserve the label for people that it describes accurately.
- falcolas 2y ago
  > I "have" ADHD, although I don't believe in it conceptually Congratulations on getting your Doctorate of Psychiatry. Glad you've single handedly debunked a century of study with your belief. On a more serious note, I'm glad your symptoms are addressable with coping mechanisms. A lot of folks can't. And your "40%" is actually closer to 5%, based on scientists who research and give talks on this mental disorder.
  - 2y ago
exmadscientist 2y ago
I don't officially "have ADHD" but I have related things that often come with "ADHD-like symptoms" which as I've gotten older seem to either get worse or just come to the forefront more. So I open this article looking for something and... man, it is really shocking and bizarre to see basically my entire life-success strategy independently written down by someone else. Some are worthy of specific comment: > These suggestions assume that the primary challenge is knowing what to do rather than the neurological capacity to consistently execute such systems. YES YES YES YES YES. I am utterly sick of being told to make a to-do list (thanks, therapist, last Monday). I have a list. I have a half-dozen discarded lists. Lists are not the problem. Someday I will find the solution? > Be exceptionally helpful when you can, so people are more forgiving when you drop administrative balls It's kind of hilarious to see this written down, because usually when people seek me out for help (or I go to them to help)... it's something novel or at least a change of pace for me... so it automatically activates the novelty circuits in my brain and I get really into helping out anyway. Brains are weird. > Being explicitly upfront about your administrative weaknesses early in relationships This one caught some flak upthread but for me it is as simple as saying "hey, I'm not always great about responding to pings, if it's important just ping me twice and that usually works" (which, for me, it does). Saying that kind of little thing explicitly can go a long way. > it's like trying to teach advanced machine learning to someone with an IQ of 100. Everyone already agrees this is ridiculous, but I have to say it too: this is ridiculous.
- falcolas 2y ago
  > I have a half-dozen discarded lists. Lists are not the problem. Someday I will find the solution? I haven't, but I can say that it's not journals. Though they do make pretty stacks when you collect them.
n8cpdx 2y ago
[flagged]
iluvmids 2y ago
I have adhd one way I get myself to do my administrative tasks is by trying to somehow mentally connect it to a goal that I am hyper focused on already. Another thing that helps me personally is running as it helps me center my thoughts to find my next step to advance to the goal(s) I am trying to achieve.
qwery 2y ago
> Being explicitly upfront about your administrative weaknesses early in relationships This sounds like a Good Thing, and I'm sure for some people it's a good idea, but in my experience, frontloading this sort of stuff tends to backfire. The problem is that most[0] people don't know how to deal with special needs[1] If you focus on the facts and "your administrative weaknesses" a lot of people just hear excuses and think you're incompetent. If you try to explain it as a medical thing first, you might get the "you don't look autistic" response -- they think you are putting yourself down -- but the response I've had even more often is "what does that mean?". Now you have to work to convince them that you are a liability. A strange game. The only way to win is to not[2] play. [0] "most": a population large enough that you can't safely ignore their existence. Source? what I reckon. [1] I don't really like to use the phrase, but I mean the literal meaning of the words and also that's often how they see it. [2] not the only way to order words
- valval 2y ago
  For me that would just be another reason to avoid the person and spend the time instead with people who are easier to get along with. That doesn’t make me a dick, I just have a limited number of hours on the clock and energy to spare.
- TomK32 2y ago
  > > Being explicitly upfront about your administrative weaknesses early in relationships > This sounds like a Good Thing, and I'm sure for some people it's a good idea, but in my experience, frontloading this sort of stuff tends to backfire. The problem is that most[0] people don't know how to deal with special needs[1] This won't count for relationships you can't choose (like in an office) but I don't think I'm an outlier my those around me, but with ADHD you are more likely to have friends and even intimate relationships who also have ADHD or are from an ADHD family. They won't think that you are weird because they already know this behaviour quite well.
whamlastxmas 2y ago
I have extreme adhd. I have zero struggles with what the article describes. I am extremely detailed oriented in every aspect of my life. I just can’t bring myself to sit and work on the most difficult and meaningful things unless they’re highly novel and I happen to find some sort of groove which is usually short lived. Not sure the point of my comment. Maybe just to shed light on now it can be different. I would also never in a million years admit my adhd in a professional setting. It’s really stigmatized
- Disruptive_Dave 2y ago
  I'm also the complete opposite of the ADHD types who forget things, are late, miss details, etc. I'm pretty sure that happened because I subconsciously developed a whole series of tactics and systems to make life less challenging over the years. But that just added new issues around living and dying by to-do lists, becoming addicted to "accomplishment" (at any level), constantly in my head 24/7 about what I need to do next, what hasn't gotten done, how I'm going to do all the things I want to finish. Also wouldn't dream of announcing this to colleagues.
  - whamlastxmas 2y ago
    I think I’m the same. I was forced in my middle school to use a planner every day for every class which was honestly one of the smartest parts of my public schooling experience. It still took years for me to be effective with it but it was ingrained early to document absolutely everything I need to do and to know that if I don’t it’s absolutely not going to get done. This includes stuff like setting timers constantly for mundane things like starting my laundry
satisfice 2y ago
This is a pretty good article, from my point of view as an undiagnosed probable ADHD sufferer (I dropped out of high school over this kind of thing). I wrote a book about my coping strategies— which invert most of the common productivity-fetish advice. For instance, I value procrastination. It has important benefits. A key move for me was to stop thinking of my mind as if it were a power boat and start thinking of it as a sailboat. Hence my book on professional self-education: Secrets of a Buccaneer-Scholar. Another key move was to recognize that discipline is not my road to getting things done. Rather, my motivator is helping people. I am also usually very careful about what I promise. Most of my promises are to do things that I have already completed, or as near as.
lawrenceyan 2y ago
If you're interested in figuring out how to gain focus / concentration in life without having to get an adderall prescription, look into Samādhi. small disclaimer: You probably can't choose to only gain focus / concentration if you embark on this path. Other stuff is going to come along with it, since technically speaking, you'll be unveiling the nature of consciousness in the process.
2-3-7-43-1807 2y ago
> it's like trying to teach advanced machine learning to someone with an IQ of 100. No matter how well-intentioned the advice or how clear the potential benefits, there's a fundamental mismatch between the cognitive requirements of the task and the available cognitive machinery. couldn't the same be said about adhd? or looking at it from the other side by the author's terms wouldn't a sub-100-iq machine learning enthusiast be also entitled to special treatment so s/he can work with it? isn't it fair to say that adhd relates to non-adhd like sub-100-iq to plus-100-iq? again, just taking the author at face value.

132 points by vaishnav92 2y ago

> it's like trying to teach advanced machine learning to someone with an IQ of 100. No matter how well-intentioned the advice or how clear the potential benefits, there's a fundamental mismatch between the cognitive requirements of the task and the available cognitive machinery. This obviously isn't core to the point OP is making, but I find it hard to believe that someone of "average" intelligence can't learn about advanced machine learning.

Aeolun 2y ago
Maybe if they really like math? I think there’s probably some correlation to being able to easily reason about these things and enjoyment. So while you could teach anyone, with enough effort, they would not actually enjoy the experience.
nrnrjrjrj 2y ago
I think they are right. Advanced ML requires both IQ and career dedication. Doing say the intro YT series building yoyr own LLM and understanding and sucessfully using PyTorch data strucutres in 3 even 4 dimensional (as in an array of array of array of arrays) doing matrix algebra... I would say this gets possible at 120 and only easy at 140 at a guess. Edit: i am serious
- calebkaiser 2y ago
  Anecdotally, as part of my job, I've taught ML concepts to a lot of people. I don't know if I've ever worked with anyone who was simply too "unintelligent" to grasp things. The bottleneck, as for most things in my experience, is time and motivation. In any niche of ML, there's just a lot of things to learn, particularly if you aren't starting with a particularly math-y background.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - hilux 2y ago
    You were probably working at a fairly advanced tech company. As were the people you were teaching. If by "ML concepts" you mean "how to implement ML" - do you really think that people who got to a job that required learning this, represent the population IQ distribution?
- jdjdnndn 2y ago
  I cannot tell if you are serious.
Spooky23 2y ago
I think it is core — the premise is that ADHD in some presentations makes basic administrative/maintenance activity difficult or impossible. With machine learning, the concept or layman level explanation to support the application of the tech is definitely doable for the average person. But the average person won’t be able to get the math. Folks I know with ADHD generally adapt well, with systems or coaching that they get from professionals or folks supporting them. Everyone is different, of course, and folks struggle with different things. He’s right with the other stuff too imo. People who deliver get grace from non-core failures.
jalalx 2y ago
What is obvious is that OP is really into IQ elitism. Looking at the ‘A More Realistic Framework’ suggestions, it asks people to aim for the bare minimum.
- bluSCALE4 2y ago
  No, it's not suggesting the bare minimum. It's asking the person to openly do what can be proven to provide the best value as long as the missed administrative tasks or fails are down-playable enough to not damage your reputation. This is a very easy framework for me to funnel my thought process through. Recently, I've been in the position where I'm the only one taking ownership of new work and initiatives, sometimes to my own detriment. For example, I took on a feature that required an entire validation system be put in place. Though I succeeded in successfully completing the system, the feature was not fully complete. The validation system was not visible. Though if leverage, it would lighten everyones load, it largely went unnoticed and what was observed was that I pushed out a buggy feature. Though I resolved the bugs within a sprint, my reputation was damaged to the point where I took on a new feature and promised it would be done in a sprint. I succeeded but wasn't able to complete it due to the api team only finishing 2-3 of 8 apis. This sort of test I made for myself also had low visibility so even though it was an impressive feat by my team's efforts, it also largely went unnoticed. Though the author is wrong to equate work-throughput with IQ, he's right to find a way to inform trusted management with this work ethic and he's right to make sure when high value tasks are taken on, that it be made clear to product so credit can be given. I have team members that are doing the bare minimum but cross lots of t's and dot many i's and that gets them equal recognition as me who often misses deadlines but does lots of heavy lifting.
  - lukas099 2y ago
    On the bright side, what you’re doing sounds more fun than crossing lots of t’s
    - bluSCALE4 2y ago
      Funny you say that. I always describe my job as fun. Just have to have the main product manager in your corner.
lr4444lr 2y ago
How many people of 100 IQ could even develop a working knowledge of the necessary linear algebra? Most college students I took it with, probably average a standard deviation higher, did pretty middling in the class.
TimTheTinker 2y ago
> can't learn about advanced machine learning. There's a difference between grokking an ELI5 explanation and being able to build, modify, or review an existing ML model
- Retr0id 2y ago
  And that difference is mostly down to having domain-specific knowledge, which is not something an IQ test measures.
hilux 2y ago
Can someone with a IQ of 100 (whatever that means) understand and implement stochastic gradient descent? Maybe - but very possibly not.
mewpmewp2 2y ago
It is interesting that you did opt to add in the word "about".

adhd4k 2y ago

I was diagnosed with ADHD but I still think of myself as a lazy cunt. That probably doesn't help reputation either, I'm sure I project this belief outwards, even unintentionally. Other ADHD-afflicted individuals I've talked to about this report similar.

brightmood 2y ago
My neurologist has a LOTS of patients. All of those with either Autism or ADHD / similar symptoms claim that they feel they don't get enough work done. I start to believe that we are overly self-critical, and that the actual workers are having better ways of hiding their incompetence :D
- Aeolun 2y ago
  Not working with too many people better than me has been terrible for my learning, but amazing for my self-confidence.
- wahern 2y ago
  If you felt satisfied with your productivity, why would you seek help? So there's definitely a selection bias there. Likewise for those whose "locus of control"[1] is biased toward external factors--i.e. you ascribe lack of success to factors outside yourself. Similarly, AFAIU, time and energy spent in self-reflection also tends to positively correlate with neuroticism--e.g. feelings of guilt and inadequacy. If you're not high on self-reflection (there's a negative correlation with extroversion), you're less likely to experience negative self-esteem, at least in a conscious way. I know ADHD correlates more strongly with some personality types than others, but by and large I believe people with ADHD (like everybody else) are spread across the spectrum along all these various axes, and it's only at some ends of certain axes that they're likely to seek assistance for themselves. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_of_control https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_of_control
- llamaLord 2y ago
  > overly self-critical IMO this relates heavily to Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria and ND people's propensity to maximise negative self-perception and minimise positive.

aleksiy123 2y ago

There's is sort of a natural efficiency in forgetting some things. Sort of a sieve of things that weren't worth doing anyways.

falcolas 2y ago
It's less useful that the things most often set aside are the most mundane but required parts of life. For example: brushing your teeth. Showering. Getting prescriptions. Scheduling and following through with doctor's appointments. Paying bills (thank the gods for autopay). House repairs. Calling someone to do house repairs. Going to meetings at work. Remembering to leave for work on time. Remembering your wallet. And so forth.

nrnrjrjrj 2y ago

Maybe I have something like thus but admin tasks are a real challenge. Monday morning my heart wants to code and be in flow... but I know I need to plan future initatives, communicate stuff and worst of all make phone calls for personal stuff.

MarkMarine 2y ago

I have to constantly fight the struggle OP is describing, and one thing I’ve never tried is being upfront and honest about my shortcomings… I just get upset with myself and start writing post it notes about doing better, actions to take, and sticking them all over the place. I can’t even imagine the world where I share this about myself and it’s well received by people who, at the core, just want me to deliver a very steady stream of work they can plan for.

falcolas 2y ago
You don't always need to announce it to everyone. You can try talking to HR and asking for accommodations (which someone with ADHD is eligible for through the ADA). And the nice thing there is you don't have to tell anyone else. Accommodations can include things as simple as leeway for coming in late, or with deadlines. They can even go up to removing specific requirements from your role. It's worth asking what's available at least.

Aurornis 2y ago

I volunteer as a mentor in a group where most mentees are recent college grads or early 20s juniors. ADHD is a perennial topic of discussion because most of them (no exaggeration) have either received a diagnosis or have self-diagnosed as ADHD. One very common struggle I see is when they take internet advice that tells them it’s okay to offload their own struggles on to other people. Unfortunately this blog gives similar advice: > Focus on managing how your limitations affect others rather than trying to eliminate those limitations. This means: > Being explicitly upfront about your administrative weaknesses early in relationships > Giving trusted contacts alternative ways to reach you when truly urgent > Building a reputation for being aware of your limitations rather than in denial about them This commonly translates to them adopting ADHD as part of their public persona within the company, which they believe will grant them some degree of protection from consequences. From what I’ve observed: More often than not this provides a false sense of security. They don’t intend for it to become a free pass, but after “coming out” as ADHD they get the wrong impression that the pressure is now off. I think they intend to continue working on becoming better at managing their struggles, but it’s really easy to let the opposite happen: Once they think their diagnosis can be used as an excuse, they relax and let their behavior slip even further. So be careful about getting the wrong idea from this line of thinking. It is good to acknowledge your difficulties and do things like ask other people to follow up if you don’t reply in a timely manner. It is important that you own up when you’ve dropped the ball. However, none of these things should be interpreted as a free pass or a loophole that shields you from consequences. That line of thinking, in my experience, is where people get themselves in trouble.

ok_dad 2y ago
Imagine telling a quadriplegic something like this, though. The neurodiverse, which ADHD is a part, are always being told we still need to measure up to the standards of the non-disabled in some form or another. It’s always about how we shouldn’t offload our struggles on others. There’s no wheelchair for us, almost no one cares if our workplaces aren’t accommodating.
- falcolas 2y ago
  100% this. This often manifests as "It's not your fault but it is your responsibility." Which is a great thinking framework when it helps you accept what you have and do what you can do mitigate it. But here's the kicker: our "what we can do" will never be enough to be neurotypical. We'll need help, even when we're using all our coping mechanisms. And if we don't get that help, the outcome is simple: we're going to fail.

sibeliuss 2y ago

This article hits home so precisely -- not personally but in terms of those who I've worked with in the past, and in particular the reputation bits. It was been painful to watch, to be honest, because the impact on our team had been so acute, and it simply never got better after so much effort on the part of management, other engineers, etc. Where I diverge with base assumptions however is that I suspect these particular people had been misdiagnosed with ADHD, were given medication, and it was the medication that led them to drop the ball. Why? Basic physiological needs were never being met, again and again. They were constantly reporting insomnia, missing meals, fatigue and all of the things you associate with stimulants being either misused or abused. Having _been there_, it was easy to spot. And I think this sort of thing is tragically common in our field, and is rarely confronted because of identity issues associated with medical labels.

ok_dad 2y ago
You’re not a doctor.
binoct 2y ago
You seem to be saying that people presenting with classic symptoms of ADHD clearly don’t have it because stimulant abuse can also cause those symptoms? Sure, people get misdiagnosed or purposely lie to get meds, but tons of people legitimately have the condition. Insomnia, poor basic self care, and fatigue (hello insomnia among others) are 100% symptoms of the condition. Taking medication doesn’t “fix” ADHD, it helps some people cope better in some ways.
- sibeliuss 2y ago
  I'm speaking only to the high rate of over-prescription and misdiagnosis (this is a fact), and how it's very likely that more than a few people are finding their lives more difficult with medication. The potential for spiraling out is certainly there with amphetamines, and it can sneak up on you, especially when basic physiological needs are no longer being met. Having known these people for a good while, I think they fell squarely into this category.

jdjdnndn 2y ago

Never have I ever read such a pile of bull. Of cause everybody prefers the new and shiny but not executing on what's important is simply lazyness and lack of will. The cherry on top is the comparison of the impossibly of teaching advanced machine learning to someone of average IQ -- clearly indicating that they assume to be of higher IQ since they have grasped that topic. OP seems to be a low performer thinking of himself as high performer held back by circumstances and not themselves

binoct 2y ago
Your comment comes off uninformed and rather nasty. Do you also think that people with depression are just lazy as well? I highly recommend taking at least a little time to read up on our current (highly limited) understanding of brain science. I do agree the use of “average” IQ as a disqualifier for understanding ML is pretty rotten though.
- deleted 2y ago
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ivewonyoung 2y ago
> Of cause everybody prefers the new and shiny but not executing on what's important is simply lazyness and lack of will. Then explain why do mice that were modified to have similar deficits in neurotransmitters exhibit the exact same "lazyness and lack of will". https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-024-02893-0 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-024-02893-0 In normal people, dopamine and norepinephrine are released in certain parts of the brain while performing routine and administrative tasks and also anticipation. In people with ADHD, it doesn't happen properly. If a (cruel and unethical) experiment was performed on you where your dopamine signaling was lowered, you'd understand this in a jiffy.
Disruptive_Dave 2y ago
May I suggest not downvoting this into oblivion? We need to shine a light on this type of thinking, as it is representative of many others towards ADHDers (including many ADHDers themselves...). I have this wrestling match internally on the daily - "Am I being lazy right now or suffering from ADHD? Can I power through with determination and grit, or soften my approach and do an end-around using tactics learned in therapy?" Magnify that x1000000. We've all encountered (in person or online) self-diagnosers, and even worse, those who make ADHD their entire personality, and calls for the world to change itself to make life easier for others. If that's your most frequent engagement with ADHD, I get how you could have OP's type of response.

zeroonetwothree 2y ago

I have ADHD and sometimes my brain wants to do admin work but sometimes it doesn’t. It’s actually hard to predict, so that makes it even worse. If I do the admin stuff one time then people assume I’ll always do it but then next time I let it slip and that has negative consequences. It kind of feels like I’m just a passenger and my subconscious is doing the driving in terms of my decisions if what to focus on.

quacked 2y ago

I "have" ADHD, although I don't believe in it conceptually and I don't take any drugs for it. I think if you poly-score people on impulse control, attention span, time sensitivity, organic recall of pertinent time-sensitive information, etc. you'll find that if you arrange all the scores from best to worst everyone under the 40th percent mark "has ADHD". Below maybe the 10th percentile you'll find that without stimulants it's unlikely that the person will function well in a task-based time-sensitive environment with delayed feedback loops for task completion. Accepting the framing that ADHD does exist, it feels like brain damage. Every year growing up, in any group of kids I was among the most immature, the most off-task, the most distracted, and the most forgetful. I am plenty smart, move very quickly, and have accomplished plenty, but my entire life has been defined by being more bored, forgetful, and immature than nearly every single person I've been close to. My wife (performs very well on relevant metrics) says it's extremely noticeable and unusual from the outside. Over time I've learned to heavily lean on coping mechanisms (my phone rings about 35 times per day with timers I snooze tactically, I leave my keys in my bag any time I go places so I can't leave without the bag, etc.) No amount of character development schemes, punishments, shaming, positive skill practicing etc. has changed my natural proclivities in the slightest, although many days of good sleep and diet can sometimes produce a bit of a sustained flow state. Sometimes I wonder if I just lack some kind of ion in my blood. My coworkers sometimes tell me they feel like they have ADHD. Then I watch them listen to someone talk about a subject they find boring for 5 minutes without drifting off or fidgeting, and then remember off the top of their heads to respond to outstanding emails. Come on guys, if we're going to make up conditions we should at least reserve the label for people that it describes accurately.

falcolas 2y ago
> I "have" ADHD, although I don't believe in it conceptually Congratulations on getting your Doctorate of Psychiatry. Glad you've single handedly debunked a century of study with your belief. On a more serious note, I'm glad your symptoms are addressable with coping mechanisms. A lot of folks can't. And your "40%" is actually closer to 5%, based on scientists who research and give talks on this mental disorder.
- 2y ago

exmadscientist 2y ago

I don't officially "have ADHD" but I have related things that often come with "ADHD-like symptoms" which as I've gotten older seem to either get worse or just come to the forefront more. So I open this article looking for something and... man, it is really shocking and bizarre to see basically my entire life-success strategy independently written down by someone else. Some are worthy of specific comment: > These suggestions assume that the primary challenge is knowing what to do rather than the neurological capacity to consistently execute such systems. YES YES YES YES YES. I am utterly sick of being told to make a to-do list (thanks, therapist, last Monday). I have a list. I have a half-dozen discarded lists. Lists are not the problem. Someday I will find the solution? > Be exceptionally helpful when you can, so people are more forgiving when you drop administrative balls It's kind of hilarious to see this written down, because usually when people seek me out for help (or I go to them to help)... it's something novel or at least a change of pace for me... so it automatically activates the novelty circuits in my brain and I get really into helping out anyway. Brains are weird. > Being explicitly upfront about your administrative weaknesses early in relationships This one caught some flak upthread but for me it is as simple as saying "hey, I'm not always great about responding to pings, if it's important just ping me twice and that usually works" (which, for me, it does). Saying that kind of little thing explicitly can go a long way. > it's like trying to teach advanced machine learning to someone with an IQ of 100. Everyone already agrees this is ridiculous, but I have to say it too: this is ridiculous.

falcolas 2y ago
> I have a half-dozen discarded lists. Lists are not the problem. Someday I will find the solution? I haven't, but I can say that it's not journals. Though they do make pretty stacks when you collect them.

n8cpdx 2y ago

[flagged]

iluvmids 2y ago

I have adhd one way I get myself to do my administrative tasks is by trying to somehow mentally connect it to a goal that I am hyper focused on already. Another thing that helps me personally is running as it helps me center my thoughts to find my next step to advance to the goal(s) I am trying to achieve.

qwery 2y ago

> Being explicitly upfront about your administrative weaknesses early in relationships This sounds like a Good Thing, and I'm sure for some people it's a good idea, but in my experience, frontloading this sort of stuff tends to backfire. The problem is that most[0] people don't know how to deal with special needs[1] If you focus on the facts and "your administrative weaknesses" a lot of people just hear excuses and think you're incompetent. If you try to explain it as a medical thing first, you might get the "you don't look autistic" response -- they think you are putting yourself down -- but the response I've had even more often is "what does that mean?". Now you have to work to convince them that you are a liability. A strange game. The only way to win is to not[2] play. [0] "most": a population large enough that you can't safely ignore their existence. Source? what I reckon. [1] I don't really like to use the phrase, but I mean the literal meaning of the words and also that's often how they see it. [2] not the only way to order words

valval 2y ago
For me that would just be another reason to avoid the person and spend the time instead with people who are easier to get along with. That doesn’t make me a dick, I just have a limited number of hours on the clock and energy to spare.
TomK32 2y ago
> > Being explicitly upfront about your administrative weaknesses early in relationships > This sounds like a Good Thing, and I'm sure for some people it's a good idea, but in my experience, frontloading this sort of stuff tends to backfire. The problem is that most[0] people don't know how to deal with special needs[1] This won't count for relationships you can't choose (like in an office) but I don't think I'm an outlier my those around me, but with ADHD you are more likely to have friends and even intimate relationships who also have ADHD or are from an ADHD family. They won't think that you are weird because they already know this behaviour quite well.

whamlastxmas 2y ago

I have extreme adhd. I have zero struggles with what the article describes. I am extremely detailed oriented in every aspect of my life. I just can’t bring myself to sit and work on the most difficult and meaningful things unless they’re highly novel and I happen to find some sort of groove which is usually short lived. Not sure the point of my comment. Maybe just to shed light on now it can be different. I would also never in a million years admit my adhd in a professional setting. It’s really stigmatized

Disruptive_Dave 2y ago
I'm also the complete opposite of the ADHD types who forget things, are late, miss details, etc. I'm pretty sure that happened because I subconsciously developed a whole series of tactics and systems to make life less challenging over the years. But that just added new issues around living and dying by to-do lists, becoming addicted to "accomplishment" (at any level), constantly in my head 24/7 about what I need to do next, what hasn't gotten done, how I'm going to do all the things I want to finish. Also wouldn't dream of announcing this to colleagues.
- whamlastxmas 2y ago
  I think I’m the same. I was forced in my middle school to use a planner every day for every class which was honestly one of the smartest parts of my public schooling experience. It still took years for me to be effective with it but it was ingrained early to document absolutely everything I need to do and to know that if I don’t it’s absolutely not going to get done. This includes stuff like setting timers constantly for mundane things like starting my laundry

satisfice 2y ago

This is a pretty good article, from my point of view as an undiagnosed probable ADHD sufferer (I dropped out of high school over this kind of thing). I wrote a book about my coping strategies— which invert most of the common productivity-fetish advice. For instance, I value procrastination. It has important benefits. A key move for me was to stop thinking of my mind as if it were a power boat and start thinking of it as a sailboat. Hence my book on professional self-education: Secrets of a Buccaneer-Scholar. Another key move was to recognize that discipline is not my road to getting things done. Rather, my motivator is helping people. I am also usually very careful about what I promise. Most of my promises are to do things that I have already completed, or as near as.

lawrenceyan 2y ago

If you're interested in figuring out how to gain focus / concentration in life without having to get an adderall prescription, look into Samādhi. small disclaimer: You probably can't choose to only gain focus / concentration if you embark on this path. Other stuff is going to come along with it, since technically speaking, you'll be unveiling the nature of consciousness in the process.

2-3-7-43-1807 2y ago

> it's like trying to teach advanced machine learning to someone with an IQ of 100. No matter how well-intentioned the advice or how clear the potential benefits, there's a fundamental mismatch between the cognitive requirements of the task and the available cognitive machinery. couldn't the same be said about adhd? or looking at it from the other side by the author's terms wouldn't a sub-100-iq machine learning enthusiast be also entitled to special treatment so s/he can work with it? isn't it fair to say that adhd relates to non-adhd like sub-100-iq to plus-100-iq? again, just taking the author at face value.