21 ms·

Well, the elephant in the room is that an app these days is a packaged version of a website with one twist: notifications. Unless you explicitly disable it via

Well, the elephant in the room is that an app these days is a packaged version of a website with one twist: notifications. Unless you explicitly disable it via settings, it will try to get a small chunk of your attention every now and then. - Would you like to enable notifications to see when your EV finishes charging? - Yes. (in a couple of days when you're thinking about a completely different topic) - SPECIAL OFFER! 20% OFF THE FATTY FRIES IF YOU GET A CAR WASH FROM US!!! And that's everywhere. It pays off due to the scale, just like spam. It costs nothing to send an annoying notification to a horde of users, and even if 1% of the users go for it, it is still 5+ figures of revenue out of a handful of characters pushed to users' devices, and hours of human time wasted dealing with useless annoying distractions.

eep_social 2y ago
> one twist: notifications I’d argue the second twist is data collection, which for an app can be much more invasive than what a web client leaks depending on permissions.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  What “private data” can an app leak that a website can’t if you don’t explicitly give it permissions?
  - komali2 2y ago
    > if you don’t explicitly give it permissions A lot of users don't understand that permissions are optional. They just tap to make the boxes go away. So the app developer stealing your data isn't insulated from being unethical just because they gave you a series of dialog boxes on installation. So to answer your question: your contact list, location, connected Bluetooth devices, your photos, etc.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      And there are now web standards for precise location (has been forever), Bluetooth, battery status, etc
  - eep_social 2y ago
    If the implication was that web fingerprinting has gotten really creepy too, then I agree. Unluckily, I don’t think I can do justice to the matrix of “depending on permissions” x mobile OS x valid but overly broad permissions in a comment. Apps can and do take anything you give them, active status, location, other installed apps, battery charge percentage, etc.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      Location data is permission based and at least iOS has taken steps that prevent an app from seeing other installed apps. There is also a battery status API for browsers. Safari doesn’t support it. But Android browsers do.
Dalewyn 2y ago
>Unless you explicitly disable it via settings, You don't? I disable notifs like the fucking plague. Notifs? Yeah, because it's not a question of if; that shit is dead on arrival.
- OsrsNeedsf2P 2y ago
  App stores should start treating notification blocks as a signal the app is low quality
  - kibwen 2y ago
    One look at the Android and iOS app stores should tell you that Google and Apple do not give a hoot about quality. If it makes money for the platform landlord, it stays.
- lukev 2y ago
  The problem is when it’s an app that sometimes you want notifications from. I deleted Uber, for example, when it started spamming me.
  - cryptoz 2y ago
    That should be getting kicked off the store then! Didn’t google implement a solution to this like 10 years ago, notification channels? Does iOS still not having something like that? Is Uber lying about the content of the notification for the channel? I thought it was against all the app stores rules to spam notifications that the user doesn’t want. Maybe I am mistaken.
    - compootr 2y ago
      Yep! Android packages do have channels. The issue is though, greedy companies jumble their notifications into one channel, so if you want one thing, you get the whole ass-blaster 5000. this is why we can't have nice things I generally treat computers as less than equal, so only messaging and critical apps get notifications. You [phone] only speak when asked to!
chrismartin 2y ago
It's not only notifications, it's permissions (that the app won't work until you accept) to track your location, exfiltrate your contact list, and so forth. It's an invasion of privacy. It should not be required to, e.g., order food at a restaurant or configure your headphones.
- wlesieutre 2y ago
  One under the radar change in iOS 18 is that contacts permissions are now more like photos have worked for a few years now. Instead of having to give the app all your contacts and then pick within the app, there’s now a system picker and you can choose specific contacts to grant permission for.
  - gabeio 2y ago
    That’s cool and all but tbh don’t they already have it from the last time I accidentally pressed allow all? And when it’s out there it’s out there… even the FTC agrees: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41688080 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41688080
    - wafflemaker 2y ago
      At least they can't track changes to your contacts, which is also an important data. That's really cool with per app contacts lists, like on GrapheneOS. Seeing it's now on iPhone, I hope it will trickle down to Android too.
    - benoau 2y ago
      They've had 14 years to get it. I remember ages ago there was a startup Path who famously justified uploading your contacts without permission (before dialogs were implemented) as it being an industry-norm! https://techcrunch.com/2012/02/07/path-uploads-your-iphones-address-book-to-their-servers-without-a-peep/ https://techcrunch.com/2012/02/07/path-uploads-your-iphones-...
    - wlesieutre 2y ago
      Yes, if you didn’t want them to already have all your contacts you’d need to have declined that previously Well behaved apps may not have uploaded or looked at anything they didn't absolutely need to, but the problematic ones would
wlesieutre 2y ago
Uber is the worst about this. I make a point of disabling notification permissions any time I’m not actively hailing a car.
underbiding 2y ago
The real elephant in the room is all the apps that are basically packaged web browsers but also want all sorts of absurd permission privileges so it can harvest user data to sell.
godelski 2y ago
What's worse is when you're forced to use the app. In my apartment complex we're forced to use an app for laundry (no cash, no card). The fucking app doesn't even sort the rooms (I'm actually impressed. I didn't know you could do any programming without knowing what sort is. Like not even one line of code...). It also has a 30 second load time because it redraws everything during the startup when it tries to connect to the network. Luckily their API got exposed, in May... and someone made all the machines free. They also wrapped up their sales notification with the one that tells you the laundry is done. So you disable both. Not an issue though because the latter never even worked anyways. But it's like when people send spam through the same email you send necessary information. Universities pull this shit all the time. Guess what? It all is spam now. And these people wonder why they emails get blocked. Or when you go to a restaurant and they make you use their app. I'm autistic enough to try hard not to use them but often I give up because people I'm with get upset I'm taking so long (but I'm not the one at fault. It's like yelling at a cashier when corporate increases price on an item. Wrong target, but I get it). I think this is why they get away with it though. Because blame is often targeted at what is right in front of you, and they're often small. But a lot of small things add up. 1 shitty app can be ignored, but a hundred is overwhelming. And I swear, it gets worse every day
- m463 2y ago
  Can they actually force this on people?
  - userbinator 2y ago
    It depends where you are. Some states have made it illegal to refuse cash.
  - brewdad 2y ago
    Why can’t they? You technically have a choice to go elsewhere to do your laundry or to eat. It’s shitty and probably a long term negative but it isn’t anywhere close to illegal.
    - m463 2y ago
m463 2y ago
No, really it's identification and tracking on a mass scale.
left-struck 2y ago
Idk why more people don’t do what I do. I call it notification hygiene, or maybe attention hygiene. If an app has a legitimate reason for notifying me, like it’s a messaging app and a human being has messaged me, then the app gets to notify me, otherwise it does not. The first time an app shows me a notification that is useless to me it gets deleted from my phone if I’m not using it anymore. On the spot. Drop everything I’m doing and delete the app. If I am still using the app I disable notifications for it. I get almost no notifications that aren’t people messaging me.
- accurrent 2y ago
  Cant do that with my banking app, payment app or government apps :(. Unfortunately where I live almost everything requires a phone.
  - left-struck 2y ago
    You can’t turn off the notifications? To be clear I wouldn’t delete my banking app if it showed me a marketing notification, I would go into the app and turn off that kind of notification. I have notifications turned on for my banking app because of 2FA and transaction notifications. In the past I was actually able to stop a fraudulent transaction within minutes because of a transaction notification so I value them.
    - ailurooo 2y ago
      you can't selectively turn off junk notifications from apps that you need notifications from.. i want to use the peets app to know when my coffees ready but it spams me with pumpkin spice latte deals..
      - left-struck 2y ago
        I think this is something I genuinely differ on to most people. If an app doesn’t allow me to selectively choose the notifications then I don’t allow it to notify me. I put a really high value on my attention and I don’t consider that ok behaviour from an app. If I miss something because I don’t get notifications then that’s too bad, the value of not being interrupted is so much higher.
gruez 2y ago
>Unless you explicitly disable it via settings, it will try to get a small chunk of your attention every now and then. It's been opt in on iOS and Android for years
anonzzzies 2y ago
I just have my phone and laptop on do not disturb 247. Works great. I have one chat app open and people who really need to reach me send a message there. Been doing that for 10+ years; it's excellent.
dzhiurgis 2y ago
It's becoming obvious operating systems needs to give us more options to control our devices - i.e. firewall, caller and notification filters, etc.
ProxCoques 2y ago
The weird thing is that companies will pay for entirely separate engineering, product and marketing departments for their apps which duplicate their web apps in every way (or usually a bit less), not to mention being under the thumb of the app stores - all for the sake of notifications. I'm no bean-counter, but that seems very odd to me.
aembleton 2y ago
I wish Android would let me filter notifications and add rules to them. I know that you can switch off certain types of notifications, but thats only if the developer has added those in. For example Revolut uses one notification type and sends payment notifications and marketing through that same channel. So, I just don't use Revolut but it would be good if Android could let me set up keywords to block notifications.
- dqv 2y ago
  You can do this sort of filtering with third party apps, which is why I'm probably going to be switching to Android pretty soon.
smcleod 2y ago
I don't understand why you'd have notifications enabled for any app that you don't need them from?
dqv 2y ago
This is a big gripe of mine with iOS. There is no way for you to filter notifications by contents (e.g. if Wallet says "weekly spending" dismiss the notification [Apple Wallet has two options for notifications: on or off, there is no way to disable weekly spending notifications that I've been able to find]). Android doesn't have it either, but Android allows third party apps to do it. I'm strongly considering switching to Android for this reason alone.
strijelac 2y ago
Take look at this app (I know, one mora app to install :) ) https://www.minimalistphone.com https://www.minimalistphone.com
orev 2y ago
Every time I see an app do this, I go to the App Store and give a one-star rating with a comment that this is why (app is using notifications for spam). I feel like using that method is more likely to be seen by the right people than complaining another way.

eep_social 2y ago

> one twist: notifications I’d argue the second twist is data collection, which for an app can be much more invasive than what a web client leaks depending on permissions.

scarface_74 2y ago
What “private data” can an app leak that a website can’t if you don’t explicitly give it permissions?
- komali2 2y ago
  > if you don’t explicitly give it permissions A lot of users don't understand that permissions are optional. They just tap to make the boxes go away. So the app developer stealing your data isn't insulated from being unethical just because they gave you a series of dialog boxes on installation. So to answer your question: your contact list, location, connected Bluetooth devices, your photos, etc.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    And there are now web standards for precise location (has been forever), Bluetooth, battery status, etc
- eep_social 2y ago
  If the implication was that web fingerprinting has gotten really creepy too, then I agree. Unluckily, I don’t think I can do justice to the matrix of “depending on permissions” x mobile OS x valid but overly broad permissions in a comment. Apps can and do take anything you give them, active status, location, other installed apps, battery charge percentage, etc.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    Location data is permission based and at least iOS has taken steps that prevent an app from seeing other installed apps. There is also a battery status API for browsers. Safari doesn’t support it. But Android browsers do.

Dalewyn 2y ago

>Unless you explicitly disable it via settings, You don't? I disable notifs like the fucking plague. Notifs? Yeah, because it's not a question of if; that shit is dead on arrival.

OsrsNeedsf2P 2y ago
App stores should start treating notification blocks as a signal the app is low quality
- kibwen 2y ago
  One look at the Android and iOS app stores should tell you that Google and Apple do not give a hoot about quality. If it makes money for the platform landlord, it stays.
lukev 2y ago
The problem is when it’s an app that sometimes you want notifications from. I deleted Uber, for example, when it started spamming me.
- cryptoz 2y ago
  That should be getting kicked off the store then! Didn’t google implement a solution to this like 10 years ago, notification channels? Does iOS still not having something like that? Is Uber lying about the content of the notification for the channel? I thought it was against all the app stores rules to spam notifications that the user doesn’t want. Maybe I am mistaken.
  - compootr 2y ago
    Yep! Android packages do have channels. The issue is though, greedy companies jumble their notifications into one channel, so if you want one thing, you get the whole ass-blaster 5000. this is why we can't have nice things I generally treat computers as less than equal, so only messaging and critical apps get notifications. You [phone] only speak when asked to!

chrismartin 2y ago

It's not only notifications, it's permissions (that the app won't work until you accept) to track your location, exfiltrate your contact list, and so forth. It's an invasion of privacy. It should not be required to, e.g., order food at a restaurant or configure your headphones.

wlesieutre 2y ago
One under the radar change in iOS 18 is that contacts permissions are now more like photos have worked for a few years now. Instead of having to give the app all your contacts and then pick within the app, there’s now a system picker and you can choose specific contacts to grant permission for.
- gabeio 2y ago
  That’s cool and all but tbh don’t they already have it from the last time I accidentally pressed allow all? And when it’s out there it’s out there… even the FTC agrees: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41688080 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41688080
  - wafflemaker 2y ago
    At least they can't track changes to your contacts, which is also an important data. That's really cool with per app contacts lists, like on GrapheneOS. Seeing it's now on iPhone, I hope it will trickle down to Android too.
  - benoau 2y ago
    They've had 14 years to get it. I remember ages ago there was a startup Path who famously justified uploading your contacts without permission (before dialogs were implemented) as it being an industry-norm! https://techcrunch.com/2012/02/07/path-uploads-your-iphones-address-book-to-their-servers-without-a-peep/ https://techcrunch.com/2012/02/07/path-uploads-your-iphones-...
  - wlesieutre 2y ago
    Yes, if you didn’t want them to already have all your contacts you’d need to have declined that previously Well behaved apps may not have uploaded or looked at anything they didn't absolutely need to, but the problematic ones would

wlesieutre 2y ago

Uber is the worst about this. I make a point of disabling notification permissions any time I’m not actively hailing a car.

underbiding 2y ago

The real elephant in the room is all the apps that are basically packaged web browsers but also want all sorts of absurd permission privileges so it can harvest user data to sell.

godelski 2y ago

What's worse is when you're forced to use the app. In my apartment complex we're forced to use an app for laundry (no cash, no card). The fucking app doesn't even sort the rooms (I'm actually impressed. I didn't know you could do any programming without knowing what sort is. Like not even one line of code...). It also has a 30 second load time because it redraws everything during the startup when it tries to connect to the network. Luckily their API got exposed, in May... and someone made all the machines free. They also wrapped up their sales notification with the one that tells you the laundry is done. So you disable both. Not an issue though because the latter never even worked anyways. But it's like when people send spam through the same email you send necessary information. Universities pull this shit all the time. Guess what? It all is spam now. And these people wonder why they emails get blocked. Or when you go to a restaurant and they make you use their app. I'm autistic enough to try hard not to use them but often I give up because people I'm with get upset I'm taking so long (but I'm not the one at fault. It's like yelling at a cashier when corporate increases price on an item. Wrong target, but I get it). I think this is why they get away with it though. Because blame is often targeted at what is right in front of you, and they're often small. But a lot of small things add up. 1 shitty app can be ignored, but a hundred is overwhelming. And I swear, it gets worse every day

m463 2y ago
Can they actually force this on people?
- userbinator 2y ago
  It depends where you are. Some states have made it illegal to refuse cash.
- brewdad 2y ago
  Why can’t they? You technically have a choice to go elsewhere to do your laundry or to eat. It’s shitty and probably a long term negative but it isn’t anywhere close to illegal.
  - m463 2y ago

m463 2y ago

No, really it's identification and tracking on a mass scale.

left-struck 2y ago

Idk why more people don’t do what I do. I call it notification hygiene, or maybe attention hygiene. If an app has a legitimate reason for notifying me, like it’s a messaging app and a human being has messaged me, then the app gets to notify me, otherwise it does not. The first time an app shows me a notification that is useless to me it gets deleted from my phone if I’m not using it anymore. On the spot. Drop everything I’m doing and delete the app. If I am still using the app I disable notifications for it. I get almost no notifications that aren’t people messaging me.

accurrent 2y ago
Cant do that with my banking app, payment app or government apps :(. Unfortunately where I live almost everything requires a phone.
- left-struck 2y ago
  You can’t turn off the notifications? To be clear I wouldn’t delete my banking app if it showed me a marketing notification, I would go into the app and turn off that kind of notification. I have notifications turned on for my banking app because of 2FA and transaction notifications. In the past I was actually able to stop a fraudulent transaction within minutes because of a transaction notification so I value them.
  - ailurooo 2y ago
    you can't selectively turn off junk notifications from apps that you need notifications from.. i want to use the peets app to know when my coffees ready but it spams me with pumpkin spice latte deals..
    - left-struck 2y ago
      I think this is something I genuinely differ on to most people. If an app doesn’t allow me to selectively choose the notifications then I don’t allow it to notify me. I put a really high value on my attention and I don’t consider that ok behaviour from an app. If I miss something because I don’t get notifications then that’s too bad, the value of not being interrupted is so much higher.

gruez 2y ago

>Unless you explicitly disable it via settings, it will try to get a small chunk of your attention every now and then. It's been opt in on iOS and Android for years

anonzzzies 2y ago

I just have my phone and laptop on do not disturb 247. Works great. I have one chat app open and people who really need to reach me send a message there. Been doing that for 10+ years; it's excellent.

dzhiurgis 2y ago

It's becoming obvious operating systems needs to give us more options to control our devices - i.e. firewall, caller and notification filters, etc.

ProxCoques 2y ago

The weird thing is that companies will pay for entirely separate engineering, product and marketing departments for their apps which duplicate their web apps in every way (or usually a bit less), not to mention being under the thumb of the app stores - all for the sake of notifications. I'm no bean-counter, but that seems very odd to me.

aembleton 2y ago

I wish Android would let me filter notifications and add rules to them. I know that you can switch off certain types of notifications, but thats only if the developer has added those in. For example Revolut uses one notification type and sends payment notifications and marketing through that same channel. So, I just don't use Revolut but it would be good if Android could let me set up keywords to block notifications.

dqv 2y ago
You can do this sort of filtering with third party apps, which is why I'm probably going to be switching to Android pretty soon.

smcleod 2y ago

I don't understand why you'd have notifications enabled for any app that you don't need them from?

dqv 2y ago

This is a big gripe of mine with iOS. There is no way for you to filter notifications by contents (e.g. if Wallet says "weekly spending" dismiss the notification [Apple Wallet has two options for notifications: on or off, there is no way to disable weekly spending notifications that I've been able to find]). Android doesn't have it either, but Android allows third party apps to do it. I'm strongly considering switching to Android for this reason alone.

strijelac 2y ago

Take look at this app (I know, one mora app to install :) ) https://www.minimalistphone.com https://www.minimalistphone.com

orev 2y ago

Every time I see an app do this, I go to the App Store and give a one-star rating with a comment that this is why (app is using notifications for spam). I feel like using that method is more likely to be seen by the right people than complaining another way.