8 ms·

I'm forking Ladybird and stepping down as SerenityOS BDFL

823 points by zmodem 2y ago

getwiththeprog 2y ago
BDFALAISM Beneficial Dictator For As Long As It Suits Me :)
- guilherme-puida 2y ago
  As Long As it Suits the Community, I guess. I might be naive, but the reasons he gave for his decision don't strike me as selfish.
- arp242 2y ago
  Yes, that is always implied. Even Guido, the original BFDL, stepped down. Linus will probably retire at some point (I hope, considering the alternative would be death before retirement at a relatively young age). Etc.
  - btschaegg 2y ago
    > considering the alternative would be death Which is exactly what happened to the first "dictator for life" (without the B) ;-). Even at more or less the exact age where one would expect someone to retire today. See also: Julius Caesar, Ides of March Edit: Just to make this clear, I also find the "I'm doing this as long as it works out and makes sense" to be the only useful approach to the "title" of BDFL.
qalmakka 2y ago
I guess SerenityOS is somewhat doomed now? I never saw this kind of move ending well, honestly. Even when not involved, having the original around is always a great boon to the popularity of a project. I for one would love to see the SerenityOS GUI ported to Wayland on Windows. It's precisely what I ask for from an OS honestly.
- bowsamic 2y ago
  Yeah it's hard to see this not as the beginning of the end for SerenityOS
- tete 2y ago
  I don't know, there's quite a few open source projects where the original author stepped down and it's thriving. Take Arch Linux for example. Before that Gentoo - and there I think the main "problem" with popularity is that self-compiling fell out of fashion. There's also tons of software projects where this happened, just more quietly. Usually when there is no drama, nobody reports about it. So I'd assume it's usually more a problem, if there is drama, but even here I can think about projects surviving despite it. See OwnCloud/NextCloud. Honestly, I can't think of projects where this did not end well. Given that SerentyOS is still a thing, despite Kling pulling out a while ago (in the sense of only working on the browser) it really doesn't sound like the project is on its last breath now. Given the history of getting people into OS development - even more so than Haiku, which also did a pretty good job at that I think Kling leaves with a multitude of people stepping in.
- stephen_g 2y ago
  Define ‘doomed’. As far as I can tell, SerenityOS did everything (and much more) than Andreas ever hoped it would. It was never meant to be a ‘mass-market’ general purpose OS, but could still turn into one (or be the basis that one is built from) if the right maintainers steer it that way. But even if it doesn’t I’m glad that it existed, and that it spawned Ladybird is pretty crazy and awesome.
- pawelmurias 2y ago
  If it is something people hack on for fun why would it be doomed because of one guy leaving or their web browser getting forked?
nextaccountic 2y ago
> Ladybird now targets Linux and macOS. The SerenityOS target is dropped. Why dropping the SerenityOS target?? Does this mean that SerenityOS's Ladybird will need to continually pull patches from the new Ladybird project in order to keep development? Also: is it really a fork if the new project gets to keep the name "Ladybird"? Will SerenityOS's browser need to be renamed, or there will be two diverging Ladybird projects with the same name? (Maybe a qualifier would help, like SerenityOS Ladybird vs Open Ladybird or something?)
- trashburger 2y ago
  > Does this mean that SerenityOS's Ladybird will need to continually pull patches from the new Ladybird project in order to keep development? It will probably mean that Ladybird becomes a port. As for what happens to the LibWeb that's in SerenityOS right now, that's still undecided. > Also: is it really a fork if the new project gets to keep the name "Ladybird"? Will SerenityOS's browser need to be renamed, or there will be two diverging Ladybird projects with the same name? (Maybe a qualifier would help, like SerenityOS Ladybird vs Open Ladybird or something?) SerenityOS' browser will probably go back to being called "Browser", like it was before.
- bowsamic 2y ago
  Yeah that's a little bit concerning, honestly. It really sounds more like an abandonment of SerenityOS, rather than a shift in emphasis
  - asddubs 2y ago
    the writing has been on the wall for a long time (as the post mentions too). I'm cynical so I think to some extent it's related to the fact that writing a browser from scratch has been able to attract significant funding, whereas the operating system has earned a lot of nerd goodwill and small donations but would have a really hard time commercially justifying itself. I think it's a shame because it's a far cooler project, but of course it's not up to me to dictate how others spend their time.
- squeek502 2y ago
user_7832 2y ago
> Ladybird now targets Linux and macOS. The SerenityOS target is dropped. Aww :( I can understand forking the browser from the OS, but I'm a bit sad about this. I hope SerenityOS can have a first-class browser in line with the OS philosophy.
- tete 2y ago
  To be fair though. SerentyOS given the size of its user base has a ton of ports already and since even super niche projects like NetBSD can pull off having one of the best (and certainly the most portable) ports collections out there I'd assume that SerentyOS will be able to pull off keeping a browser compatible that was originally made for this OS - if there is interest of course.
trashburger 2y ago
Sad to hear. Hacking on SerenityOS together with Andreas was some of the most fun I've ever had. Wishing him the best of luck with Ladybird, and hoping he will come back once in a while (become the TYVC? :).
fao_ 2y ago
This is one of the kindest "I'm forking xyz" posts I've ever read. The whole thing is some level of heartwarming, and unlike a lot of the other posts in the same range actually makes me consider contributing to either Ladybird or SerenityOS!
- bayindirh 2y ago
  Because it's not done because of anger, or anything similar. Instead it's observed that a small project became a big one, and started the cannibalize the bigger project. So the developer decided to take the growing project to its own space and let the other project thrive, too. It's done out of love, if nothing else.
skilled 2y ago
Make sure you check out the Andreas Kling channel on YouTube also, https://www.youtube.com/@awesomekling/videos https://www.youtube.com/@awesomekling/videos Where he does a monthly update on developing Ladybird. You can learn about the things he's overcome, but also the problems he's having. Most recent updates, Ladybird browser update (May 2024) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4YBMjlGWRc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4YBMjlGWRc) Ladybird browser update (Apr 2024) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBl-fa-YJFE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBl-fa-YJFE) Ladybird browser update (Mar 2024) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKHopzDtElY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKHopzDtElY)
lyu07282 2y ago
Damn I was worried for a second there, fearing some sort of falling out with the community. But this is awesome news! Ladybird is a far more important project to focus on imho.
- zadler 2y ago
  Given that it dropped serenity as a target, it does seem there is something more to this story…
  - ZiiS 2y ago
    Unlike SerenityOS, Ladybird will have a relaxed NIH policy (instead of "no 3rd party code!") This requires that it becomes a Port rather than a core part of Serenity.
  - tete 2y ago
    Wondering about that too, but to be fair, he probably doesn't use it as his primary OS (none of the developers does I think), so with Serenty mostly being a development project and the interest shifting (back to) developing web browsers it seems logical to focus on these targets. I've been working on projects myself where the primary target switched, because I noticed it's a bit draining to keep supporting something "just" because I love it. Dropping a target usually doesn't mean it cannot be used there anymore, but simply that you don't feel comfortable guaranteeing support. I don't know if that's the case here, only that it doesn't necessitate bad feelings. Given that it was also stated that it won't be self-contained anymore that's also a very good technical reason. And I totally get that if you want to create a new browser with a new layout engine not wanting to re-invent every audio, video, image decoder, not wanting to reinvent all the wheels makes it already a huge project and I'd assume it's hard to guarantee all of these things will also work and compile on Serenity, which despite doing an amazing job at porting might get stuck here and there. I mean, see the OpenBSD and Rust(up) story.
  - worble 2y ago
    Possibly that for Ladybird to move forwards more quickly, it needs access to OS API's or Graphics stuff that Serenity can't yet provide? (I'm just spitballing here, I don't know much about OS development) To take it a step further, due to the fact that Andreas is being sponsored to work on Ladybird full time by a few companies, if it's inherently also tied to the development of Serenity (since its a primary target) that might make him concerned that there's a clash of responsibilities there - he might not want any sponsors pulling out or arguing that he's spending their money on Serenity instead of Ladybird. This is all just assumptions however, and regardless of the reasons I think he's doing the right thing.
p9fus 2y ago
I'm seriously impressed by the amount of progress this project has made (and its apparently helped with finding issues in the various specs that constitute a modern browser) so I wish him all the best in this new direction
lemper 2y ago
yo andreas, it takes a lot of courage to acknowledge the situation and i truly applaud you for that. i will keep on cheering you from the sideline.
1GZ0 2y ago
Ladybird has garnered a level of mainstream attention that SerenityOS never really managed to. The browser has the potential to impact many more people, and the project is well funded by large investors. It makes sense that Andreas would shift his focus to LadyBird at this point. While Safari is busy being Safari and Firefox is busy eating glue in the corner, I'd love to see LadyBird become a real contender in the browser market.
- teekert 2y ago
  Yeah I agree. Would be nice to see a browser option that is not 20+ years old. People say it’s not doable but this here is a real opportunity.
  - rascul 2y ago
    > Would be nice to see a browser option that is not 20+ years old. Chrome is less than 20 years old.
    - KwanEsq 2y ago
      Chrome forked from Webkit, which forked from KHTML, which apparently dates from 4th November 1998, so Chrome's base is 25 years and 7 months old tomorrow.
    - ZiiS 2y ago
      KHTML+KJS released in 1998, via WebKit from 2001, in 2008 it gained the Chrome name, but the code has more than 20 years of legacy.
      - rafram 2y ago
        There’s very little WebKit / KHTML code left in Chrome.
        wizzwizz4 2y ago
        There's very little NT 3.1 code left in Windows, but it's still clear how old that project is.
bowsamic 2y ago
I'm confused, what is the project management structure of SerenityOS now, then?
- awesomekling 2y ago
  SerenityOS is now controlled by the same group of maintainers that have been managing it for the last couple of years. What happens next is up to them & the community to decide. :)
codetrotter 2y ago
Thank you Andreas for creating both of these projects and for all your work on both of them and for all of the videos you’ve been making along the way while working on them.
HeckFeck 2y ago
I fully respect these reasons, they are logical and well said. But hopefully interest in SerenityOS doesn't taper off due to this. Kling was great at garnering interest with his YouTube videos where he'd go deep into bug fixing and feature development. Certainly, the browser has the most potential and even immediate necessity for the sake of the open Web, but I would still like to daily drive SerenityOS some day. Its aesthetics and holistic architecture are a dream realised. Windows is going down the toilet fast, and Linux lacks the holistic element, so having something that combines the greatest visual design language - mid to late 90s interface guidelines - with the powerful Unix shell would be a huge boon for desktop computing. (Yes OSX has great albeit modern UX with the Unix underpinnings but isn't OSS or affordable to the masses).
- prox 2y ago
  Oh yes, a MacOS like design but open with Unix, that would be amazing!
  - projektfu 2y ago
    That was the plan for Étoilé but it didn't get traction for some reason.
  - boxed 2y ago
    macOS is unix... And he seems to not want macOS type design. Unless you mean System 8/9.
    - HeckFeck 2y ago
      Modern macOS design is reasonably consistent but with fewer visual cues - still a step above Windows post-7. And yes, I meant the bezels and skeuomorphism of earlier design - exemplified by Windows 9x-2k and System 8/9, while NeXT and IRIX also deserve a shout.
  - pjlegato 2y ago
    MacOS is Unix -- a BSD-derived Unix operating system called "Darwin" underlies the user interface. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system)
trustno2 2y ago
I tried Ladybird browser for fun, and it looks more stable than when I ran it for the last time, which is great! It doesn't properly load the given substack (it seems to stop loading it in the middle), but it looks fine. :) Surprisingly, loading Google Maps even work, but I can't seem to do more than move the map around. Github even works! So far it seems better than Servo in throwing random sites at it, but I last tried Servo years ago so it's not fair. I guess I will try Servo now for the heck of it edit: yeah Servo still seems worse, but it loads the whole substack post :)
- rjh29 2y ago
  > Github even works! Unsurprisingly github is one of the developer's most frequently used sites when dogfooding the browser so it'll probably always work :)
vrotaru 2y ago
So, in order to write a new browser you first have to write (as a training exercise) a new OS. Not the fastest way, but it seems to work. Best wishes to Andreas.
orlandrescu 2y ago
I really hope Ladybird will become the browser that will put HaikuOS on the map of desktops!
- coolcoder613 2y ago
  What does Ladybird have to do with Haiku? The Haiku port of Ladybird is pretty out of date, although there is talk on the Haiku forums of reviving it.
doublerabbit 2y ago
[flagged]
- awesomekling 2y ago
  It should be fairly straightforward to get it running on any mainstream *nix system. I only called out macOS and Linux specifically because we have developers actively using those systems day-to-day. :)
  - spookie 2y ago
    I'm sure someone will come and help with the port! It's just a matter of time (:
  - doublerabbit 2y ago
    I know my comment comes out negative. Shameful wasn't the right word. It's disappointing that there is no target for *BSD. I'm very respectful for you to attempt such a project. In no way am I dismissing your work but I see more and more projects becoming very mono orientated where it becomes a struggle for other OS's to adopt.
    - Apocryphon 2y ago
      Why FreeBSD and not one of the other BSDs?
      - doublerabbit 2y ago
        Good point. Going forward noted to not miss the others. I've used all three but freebsd has so far been the only one that has stuck.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
- brettermeier 2y ago
hurutparittya 2y ago
I might sound jaded, but I'd be more excited for a Chromium fork that focuses on hackability instead of a brand new browser that'll take somewhere between years to ∞ to be even remotely useful. I get why that'd be less fun to work on though.
- nicce 2y ago
  Isn’t there already quite many Chromium forks? They all have the same issue - the more your code diverges, more additional work it will be. And security patches start lagging.
- 59nadir 2y ago
  There are plenty of Chromium forks, you can go use those. Or just make your own.
- rgreekguy 2y ago
  Qutebrowser, Nyxt even better for hackability.
- Apocryphon 2y ago
  Why not directly fork WebKit, as the Orion browser did?
mythz 2y ago
Feels like an end of an Era, I used to enjoy Andreas's SerenityOS YouTube videos as he dropped down and implemented different features of the OS during a video coding session, adding code from UI, emulators, game ports, JS & Jakt programming languages, JITs all the way down to the kernel. SerenityOS was unique in that regard with the entire code-base maintained in a single source tree. I expect interest in SerenityOS will now taper off as a result of this, especially now that SerenityOS is no longer a target for Ladybird.
- dither8 2y ago
  It was a journey for sure. I never contributed code, but color schemes and emojis. But I always enjoy Andreas' Serenity videos, even some coding videos were good (I cannot code). These are special and will forever live in my heart.
squarefoot 2y ago
This could be a good move, if it frees resources that would then be allocated for the OS itself. To me SerenityOS as a x86 OS is interesting but redundant, while to me would immediately catch attention if ported to ARM or RISC-V and other embedded platforms. Many companies already use sluggish Android or web based solutions to build instrumentation screens and other vertical applications where one needs to show GUI primitives, and to me a native, fast alternative is badly needed. SerenityOS doesn't bring all the cruft that would be completely unnecessary in those systems, hence my idea that in some cases it could become the right tool for the job.
- tredre3 2y ago
  SerenityOS has (partially) working ports for both ARM and RISC-V already: https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/tree/master/Kernel/Arch https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/tree/master/Kernel/Ar...
pessimizer 2y ago
Ladybird looks amazing and is moving quickly. Without the linkage to SerenityOS, I even feel like looking at the source and seeing if I can get a handle on what's going on. Looks like the idea of writing a new browser engine, or of forking Firefox, wasn't an absurdly impossible thing that would require billions of dollars. If this inspires somebody to take up that charge again, or to pick up Servo from the table, that would be wonderful too.
- ssernikk 2y ago
  > [...] pick up Servo from the table, that would be wonderful too. I would love to see a servo-based browser in near future!
  - materielle 2y ago
    I think it would be interesting to understand why Servo seems to have moved so slow compared to Ladybird. I suspect Ladybird’s success has a lot to do with Andreas himself.
    - fabrice_d 2y ago
      Servo was picked up from hibernation by Igalia about a year ago. They have made very good progress so far, also with a small team. The choice of c++ for Ladybird looks a bit odd, even from code reuse point of view since Firefox, Chrome and obviously Servo can share Rust code (WebKit will likely not?).
      - tedunangst 2y ago
        I don't think sharing rust code with Firefox was a goal for serenityOS.
    - JBits 2y ago
      I think because Servo was orginally focused at researching new techniques for designing a modern browser, not creating something for users to user. Parts of Servo made it into Firefox.
hawski 2y ago
I guess that also means that Jakt language will also stay within SerenityOS realm.
ivanjermakov 2y ago
I feel like this should've been done a while ago. Community was quite split by two projects and it felt like SerenityOS was dragging Ladybird development down, both from sponsor and developer point of view. I'm glad Andreas had committed to this, for the best to both projects.
luke-stanley 2y ago
The web is eating everything. Maybe every app could be structured as if it's a web app or worker service to do everything people expect while being minimal? It's interesting that the OS layer could be even thinner than SerenityOS. With 'Local first' capabilities and the expanding role of web technologies, this is not only possible but could be a good idea. The new Ladybird project will be really interesting; it could be a real alternative browser people want! Being able to boot a good browser on multiple operating systems, such as a minimal BSD, a minimal Linux from scratch style OS, or even a stripped-down SerenityOS variation, is exciting. This could be more secure and easier to innovate with because it has a better level of abstractions to draw upon. The bootable web OS projects like Palm webOS, the booting Gecko/Firefox OS projects, and Chrome OS could offer interesting lessons for Ladybird. Running a browser in a VM, on metal, or on an existing host OS like BSD or Linux is very useful. This approach could be secure and powerful enough to attract users for security, speed, or powerful user-centric reasons (not corporate/adware-centric). Kling and the community he's assembled is "at risk" of helping solve some serious use-cases for people and industries while having fun! Google's OS development with Android, Chrome OS, and Fuchsia may seem complicated compared to what a Ladybird OS could do. Android is complicated and advanced, but in practice, it's bloated and error-prone with terrible complexity. For example, Pixel users miss calls due to bugs, and there are problems calling emergency numbers. Think about the array of Android and iOS exploits. The attack surfaces and codebases are too big! Given its complexity, I can see Google switching to working on Ladybird or a Go/Rust variant. Maybe even Apple will consider this. LLMs are now capable of semi-automatic porting with their large context windows. I think things could change fast, and maybe we'll have secure devices in our pockets one day. I wonder what Alan Kay and his fellow researches would have to say about this.
replete 2y ago
It makes sense if he wants to make a useful web browser and leverage third party technologies for it, Serenity is totally from scratch. This should mean more time being spent on better problems in the web browser through reinventing fewer wheels and probably speed up the development of a new browser engine, which seems pretty interesting to me.
losvedir 2y ago
Oh, this is interesting. As a GitHub sponsor of Andreas for a while now, what does that mean for sponsors? Are we funding exclusively work on LadyBird? (Had we been, for some time already?) Does the SerenityOS project have a GitHub sponsor? I personally had grown more interested in the browser anyway, so I'll just keep sponsoring Andreas, I suppose, unless this all is a prelude to VC investment or a big company acquisition or something...
- awesomekling 2y ago
  Thank you so much for sponsoring me! :) As I wrote in the announcement, I've already been working primarily on Ladybird for ~2 years already, so you have indeed been sponsoring Ladybird development by sponsoring me. SerenityOS doesn't have a GitHub Sponsors itself, but it does use Polar to allow anyone to directly sponsor work on specific issues. See https://polar.sh/SerenityOS https://polar.sh/SerenityOS And don't worry, there won't be some VC investment or big company buyout.
  - dormento 2y ago
    > And don't worry, there won't be some VC investment or big company buyout. I fell for that trick 27 times already, you can't fool me! j/k Thanks for the ride, wish you the best of luck.
    - deleted 2y ago
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  - erkkonet 2y ago
    > And don't worry, there won't be some VC investment or big company buyout. That reminds me of Torvalds' statement on Linux: "just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu"
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aeyes 2y ago
Would you finally consider publishing nightly binaries? With SerenjtyOS you always had the "build it yourself" approach which was probably meant to only attract technical users.
- niutech 2y ago
  There are no known binaries, although there is an AUR package for Arch Linux: https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/ladybird-git https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/ladybird-git
frankjr 2y ago
What's the plan for Jakt, the programming language? Does it fall under the SerenityOS umbrella? Will LadyBird continue to use C++? The blog post doesn't mention it. https://github.com/SerenityOS/jakt https://github.com/SerenityOS/jakt
- robryan 2y ago
  It has come up from time to time. From the perspective of LadyBird it is an experiment that ran its course and LadyBird will likely just be c++. From the perspective of serenity os it is still there and mostly compatible if someone is interested to come along and push it forward to be used in the os.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Given that the main author is looking into another language, maybe not much left anyway. https://www.sophiajt.com/search-for-easier-safe-systems-programming/ https://www.sophiajt.com/search-for-easier-safe-systems-prog...
  - frankjr 2y ago
    And now June is dead too. https://www.sophiajt.com/following-new-paths-ahead/ https://www.sophiajt.com/following-new-paths-ahead/
- hypeatei 2y ago
  Pretty sure it has been dead for a while. I personally never saw the point but I suppose the whole mantra of Serenity was developing everything from scratch.
MaximilianEmel 2y ago
Have you considered doing a rewrite (or a partial one) now that third-party libraries can be used? To take all your learnings and new opportunities and use them to rearchitect things.
chrismsimpson 2y ago
I think this is likely to kill both projects
dangseesyou 2y ago
[flagged]
low_tech_punk 2y ago
Can we interpret this as good news of Ladybird but bad news for Serenity? If Ladybird drops support for SerenityOS, what would be its built-in browser?
- Dessesaf 2y ago
  Serenity still has Ladybird as it is right now. So I assume that will become the baseline for "Browser" in SerenityOS going forward, and be developed independently. Whatever the browser in SerenityOS will end up looking like though, I doubt it will see much development. The kinds of people interested in working on browsers will just work on Ladybird. Someone will probably once again port Ladybird to SerenityOS in the future. It won't be part of the main system, but users would be free to install it.
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segasaturn 2y ago
I never got to try SerenityOS due to the developer's bizarre insistence that users compile the OS instead of just providing a precompiled ISO or IMG file. Shame because I appreciated the workhorse 9x aesthetics it had.
- paddim8 2y ago
  Why is it bizarre? It encouraged people to contribute to the project. It clearly worked out well for them. SerenityOS isn't for regular users, it's for developers.
- skeaker 2y ago
  You talk like the project is dead, but the blog post emphatically says that it isn't.
- niutech 2y ago
  There are prebuilt images: https://serenity-builds.halves.dev/ https://serenity-builds.halves.dev/
hypeatei 2y ago
This is really surprising but also not at the same time. Developing a browser engine from scratch is a huge task. I think the writing was on the wall when some big donations were made from various companies (including Shopify) and Andreas hired a full time dev. This will probably mark the beginning of the end for SerenityOS but I guess we'll see. Really enjoy watching the development videos from Andreas' YouTube channel.
jll29 2y ago
Andreas is a fantastic coder and also a great shepherd of geeks (community builder). The split makes sense for practical reasons - I also sense he is personally perhaps more passionate about browser hacking than OS hacking (his own contributions were more to Ladybird than to the OS for about a year as he himself writes). Smart as he is, he may have recognized that he is in a unique position to be able to contribute a cross-platform browser that competes with the big tech companies, where as SerenityOS is essentially more of a toy OS (32 bit, 1990s look and feel, not compatible with important other operating systems, no radically new OS concepts) - without wanting to dimish the contributions of its amazing developers. IMHO, SerenityOS is more about the process of writing code from scratch than the resulting software itself. Its purpose appears to be 1. to prove it is possible despite the naysayers ("only large tech companies can build a browser", "no-one can build an OS from scratch") and 2. to enjoy the coding itself. As other commenters have already stated, the only issue will be taking as much from Ladybird over to SerenityOS as possible.
- refulgentis 2y ago
  Having watched this over years, and deleted every single comment I've written on it thus far, I'm challenging myself to be honest and forthright. There's another way of looking at, that is confirmed by the same set of facts: - There was an OS project run by an awesome dude with a great story that was seen as in a unique position to compete with big tech companies. - It needed a web browser. - A web browser project was created. - Now, the web browser is in a unique position to compete with big tech companies. - This means it needs to fork itself, and drop support for the OS. That is because the OS project is now a toy. My last deleted comment mentioned my deep respect for Andreas, and that my next milestone for the browser is downloadable builds and/or moving from pre-alpha to alpha (the downloadable builds was listed as a warning it was in pre-alpha). I don't like appearing negative or arguably unsupportive, hence all the deleted comments over the years. But, it's very important to me to make sure there's an accurate signal of what working on your own project looks like. Including the progress rate on things that sound awesome to work on, like an OS or web browser. I've been dreaming of doing that since I was 17, and it took me 18 years of preparation, predominantly careful observation of successes, and failures, to go out on my own successfully.
sedatk 2y ago
Ladybird had a unique position of having been developed from scratch. That had brought a fresh set of eyes to an ancient tech called Web. Leveraging OSS would diminish that aspect, IMHO. What’s your vision Andreas? What are you trying to do with Ladybird as it’s no longer a hobby but a more serious project now?
vitiral 2y ago
Fill your bowl to the brim and it will spill. Keep sharpening your knife and it will blunt. Chase after money and security and your heart will never unclench. Care about people’s approval and you will be their prisoner. Do your work, then step back. The only path to serenity. Tao Te Ching
- satvikpendem 2y ago
  Ironic.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- MeImCounting 2y ago
  Ok yeah but the thing about the knife is just not true, a knifes not sharp until you de-burr it and if you just continue to grind the edge youre going to just be building a bigger burr and removing metal, eventually the knife will be ground away but thats beside the point. Good knife sharpening does only need a bit of grinding until you reach the grit you want and then de-burr but youre not going to make it dull by continuing to remove metal.
  - xiaq 2y ago
    That seems to be a bad translation, the original text means something like “sharpen something fully and it won’t last so long” (presumably due to it being more brittle). The text (like the rest of Tao Te Ching) is pretty vague and doesn’t actually refer to knives, so it could also be read metaphorically.
    - MeImCounting 2y ago
      I was being silly and pedantic but thats an interesting distinction! I imagine Laozi probably knew how to have sharp knives so I defer to his wisdom as far as 4th century chinese knives go anyways. Perhaps they used a different technique there and then than the type of knife sharpening I'm familiar with.
denysvitali 2y ago
Andreas is probably the most positive person I can think of. I'm happy to read such an article where for once "forking" isn't associated with a negative event. Best of luck on the new Ladybird adventure, and thanks for all your positivity and contributions!
- Touche 2y ago
  It's not a negative that SerenityOS no longer has a web browser?
  - bigiain 2y ago
    It's getting forked. It's not that SerenityOS is losing anything it already has. Sure, the Ladybird project moving forward is choosing to use different rules/philosophy about using 3rd party code/libraries - but I find it hard to agree with your assertion that this is a negative move.
  - netrap 2y ago
    It still has one, but the code is forked and he will be working on the fork not the SerenityOS version.
webprofusion 2y ago
I hope that long term the browser gets first class Windows support (currently it's via linux running under WSL), just because broad reach is best for longevity/sustainable relevance. If you build for a particular shape/character of OS (linux/BSD as it currently stands) then a lot of the abstraction that would be needed for a truly "cross-platform" app doesn't happen.
- ComputerGuru 2y ago
  Absolutely. As a great example, code that was architected to use either poll/epoll/kqueue/etc and IOCP under Windows was in a great position to just adopt io_uring without much rearchitecting!
modeless 2y ago
Wow, I wonder what libraries Ladybird will start depending on? There are some web features that are backed by the same open source library in all three major browsers, and would be huge projects to reimplement in a compatible and cross-platform way. WebRTC and ANGLE come to mind.
mgarciaisaia 2y ago
I don't know much from Andreas other than reading a couple of his posts from here, but he's a bit of a superhero to me. Wholesomely humble guy that started what's usually deemed as a massive coding project, from scratch, just to put his head out of some shit - and the guy not only manages to make two great projects, but also identify and adult his way out of one of them for both project's good. Respect, man.
account42 2y ago
> Day-to-day communication moves to a new Ladybird Discord server. Really sad to see so many open source communities choosing closed source, walled off and not publicly visible communication channels. > Ladybird now targets Linux and macOS. The SerenityOS target is dropped. Changing the browser development to a cross-platform-first model is great to see but why drop support for its roots completely?
- hashtag-til 2y ago
  Not really sure how Discord is popular, given it is impossible to search.
  - vkoskiv 2y ago
    It's popular because anyone can create their own community with just a few clicks, and it's all paid for by friendly venture capitalists :]
    - niutech 2y ago
      There are free/open source alternatives: Revolt, Spacebar, Element.
niutech 2y ago
Actually Ladybird had its own separate repo before merging with SerenityOS monorepo: https://github.com/SerenityOS/ladybird https://github.com/SerenityOS/ladybird, so now it's like reverting it.
dizhn 2y ago
I take this as very good news because like Andreas I am much more interested in the browser too. (I never liked the OS aesthetic they are targeting when it was current and I don't care for it now). Though I wish they still targeted Serenity OS. I guess the expectation is for someone to fork the more general browser to Serenity at a later date. That's not a bad plan either since the incompleteness of the OS is bound to hold the browser back. This whole thing is one of my most favorite things to happen in open source software. Andreas already succeeded in getting people to look at OS and browser development in a new way. All the best to them.

823 points by zmodem 2y ago

getwiththeprog 2y ago

BDFALAISM Beneficial Dictator For As Long As It Suits Me :)

guilherme-puida 2y ago
As Long As it Suits the Community, I guess. I might be naive, but the reasons he gave for his decision don't strike me as selfish.
arp242 2y ago
Yes, that is always implied. Even Guido, the original BFDL, stepped down. Linus will probably retire at some point (I hope, considering the alternative would be death before retirement at a relatively young age). Etc.
- btschaegg 2y ago
  > considering the alternative would be death Which is exactly what happened to the first "dictator for life" (without the B) ;-). Even at more or less the exact age where one would expect someone to retire today. See also: Julius Caesar, Ides of March Edit: Just to make this clear, I also find the "I'm doing this as long as it works out and makes sense" to be the only useful approach to the "title" of BDFL.

qalmakka 2y ago

I guess SerenityOS is somewhat doomed now? I never saw this kind of move ending well, honestly. Even when not involved, having the original around is always a great boon to the popularity of a project. I for one would love to see the SerenityOS GUI ported to Wayland on Windows. It's precisely what I ask for from an OS honestly.

bowsamic 2y ago
Yeah it's hard to see this not as the beginning of the end for SerenityOS
tete 2y ago
I don't know, there's quite a few open source projects where the original author stepped down and it's thriving. Take Arch Linux for example. Before that Gentoo - and there I think the main "problem" with popularity is that self-compiling fell out of fashion. There's also tons of software projects where this happened, just more quietly. Usually when there is no drama, nobody reports about it. So I'd assume it's usually more a problem, if there is drama, but even here I can think about projects surviving despite it. See OwnCloud/NextCloud. Honestly, I can't think of projects where this did not end well. Given that SerentyOS is still a thing, despite Kling pulling out a while ago (in the sense of only working on the browser) it really doesn't sound like the project is on its last breath now. Given the history of getting people into OS development - even more so than Haiku, which also did a pretty good job at that I think Kling leaves with a multitude of people stepping in.
stephen_g 2y ago
Define ‘doomed’. As far as I can tell, SerenityOS did everything (and much more) than Andreas ever hoped it would. It was never meant to be a ‘mass-market’ general purpose OS, but could still turn into one (or be the basis that one is built from) if the right maintainers steer it that way. But even if it doesn’t I’m glad that it existed, and that it spawned Ladybird is pretty crazy and awesome.
pawelmurias 2y ago
If it is something people hack on for fun why would it be doomed because of one guy leaving or their web browser getting forked?

nextaccountic 2y ago

> Ladybird now targets Linux and macOS. The SerenityOS target is dropped. Why dropping the SerenityOS target?? Does this mean that SerenityOS's Ladybird will need to continually pull patches from the new Ladybird project in order to keep development? Also: is it really a fork if the new project gets to keep the name "Ladybird"? Will SerenityOS's browser need to be renamed, or there will be two diverging Ladybird projects with the same name? (Maybe a qualifier would help, like SerenityOS Ladybird vs Open Ladybird or something?)

trashburger 2y ago
> Does this mean that SerenityOS's Ladybird will need to continually pull patches from the new Ladybird project in order to keep development? It will probably mean that Ladybird becomes a port. As for what happens to the LibWeb that's in SerenityOS right now, that's still undecided. > Also: is it really a fork if the new project gets to keep the name "Ladybird"? Will SerenityOS's browser need to be renamed, or there will be two diverging Ladybird projects with the same name? (Maybe a qualifier would help, like SerenityOS Ladybird vs Open Ladybird or something?) SerenityOS' browser will probably go back to being called "Browser", like it was before.
bowsamic 2y ago
Yeah that's a little bit concerning, honestly. It really sounds more like an abandonment of SerenityOS, rather than a shift in emphasis
- asddubs 2y ago
  the writing has been on the wall for a long time (as the post mentions too). I'm cynical so I think to some extent it's related to the fact that writing a browser from scratch has been able to attract significant funding, whereas the operating system has earned a lot of nerd goodwill and small donations but would have a really hard time commercially justifying itself. I think it's a shame because it's a far cooler project, but of course it's not up to me to dictate how others spend their time.
squeek502 2y ago

user_7832 2y ago

> Ladybird now targets Linux and macOS. The SerenityOS target is dropped. Aww :( I can understand forking the browser from the OS, but I'm a bit sad about this. I hope SerenityOS can have a first-class browser in line with the OS philosophy.

tete 2y ago
To be fair though. SerentyOS given the size of its user base has a ton of ports already and since even super niche projects like NetBSD can pull off having one of the best (and certainly the most portable) ports collections out there I'd assume that SerentyOS will be able to pull off keeping a browser compatible that was originally made for this OS - if there is interest of course.

trashburger 2y ago

Sad to hear. Hacking on SerenityOS together with Andreas was some of the most fun I've ever had. Wishing him the best of luck with Ladybird, and hoping he will come back once in a while (become the TYVC? :).

fao_ 2y ago

This is one of the kindest "I'm forking xyz" posts I've ever read. The whole thing is some level of heartwarming, and unlike a lot of the other posts in the same range actually makes me consider contributing to either Ladybird or SerenityOS!

bayindirh 2y ago
Because it's not done because of anger, or anything similar. Instead it's observed that a small project became a big one, and started the cannibalize the bigger project. So the developer decided to take the growing project to its own space and let the other project thrive, too. It's done out of love, if nothing else.

skilled 2y ago

Make sure you check out the Andreas Kling channel on YouTube also, https://www.youtube.com/@awesomekling/videos https://www.youtube.com/@awesomekling/videos Where he does a monthly update on developing Ladybird. You can learn about the things he's overcome, but also the problems he's having. Most recent updates, Ladybird browser update (May 2024) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4YBMjlGWRc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4YBMjlGWRc) Ladybird browser update (Apr 2024) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBl-fa-YJFE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBl-fa-YJFE) Ladybird browser update (Mar 2024) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKHopzDtElY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKHopzDtElY)

lyu07282 2y ago

Damn I was worried for a second there, fearing some sort of falling out with the community. But this is awesome news! Ladybird is a far more important project to focus on imho.

zadler 2y ago
Given that it dropped serenity as a target, it does seem there is something more to this story…
- ZiiS 2y ago
  Unlike SerenityOS, Ladybird will have a relaxed NIH policy (instead of "no 3rd party code!") This requires that it becomes a Port rather than a core part of Serenity.
- tete 2y ago
  Wondering about that too, but to be fair, he probably doesn't use it as his primary OS (none of the developers does I think), so with Serenty mostly being a development project and the interest shifting (back to) developing web browsers it seems logical to focus on these targets. I've been working on projects myself where the primary target switched, because I noticed it's a bit draining to keep supporting something "just" because I love it. Dropping a target usually doesn't mean it cannot be used there anymore, but simply that you don't feel comfortable guaranteeing support. I don't know if that's the case here, only that it doesn't necessitate bad feelings. Given that it was also stated that it won't be self-contained anymore that's also a very good technical reason. And I totally get that if you want to create a new browser with a new layout engine not wanting to re-invent every audio, video, image decoder, not wanting to reinvent all the wheels makes it already a huge project and I'd assume it's hard to guarantee all of these things will also work and compile on Serenity, which despite doing an amazing job at porting might get stuck here and there. I mean, see the OpenBSD and Rust(up) story.
- worble 2y ago
  Possibly that for Ladybird to move forwards more quickly, it needs access to OS API's or Graphics stuff that Serenity can't yet provide? (I'm just spitballing here, I don't know much about OS development) To take it a step further, due to the fact that Andreas is being sponsored to work on Ladybird full time by a few companies, if it's inherently also tied to the development of Serenity (since its a primary target) that might make him concerned that there's a clash of responsibilities there - he might not want any sponsors pulling out or arguing that he's spending their money on Serenity instead of Ladybird. This is all just assumptions however, and regardless of the reasons I think he's doing the right thing.

p9fus 2y ago

I'm seriously impressed by the amount of progress this project has made (and its apparently helped with finding issues in the various specs that constitute a modern browser) so I wish him all the best in this new direction

lemper 2y ago

yo andreas, it takes a lot of courage to acknowledge the situation and i truly applaud you for that. i will keep on cheering you from the sideline.

1GZ0 2y ago

Ladybird has garnered a level of mainstream attention that SerenityOS never really managed to. The browser has the potential to impact many more people, and the project is well funded by large investors. It makes sense that Andreas would shift his focus to LadyBird at this point. While Safari is busy being Safari and Firefox is busy eating glue in the corner, I'd love to see LadyBird become a real contender in the browser market.

teekert 2y ago
Yeah I agree. Would be nice to see a browser option that is not 20+ years old. People say it’s not doable but this here is a real opportunity.
- rascul 2y ago
  > Would be nice to see a browser option that is not 20+ years old. Chrome is less than 20 years old.
  - KwanEsq 2y ago
    Chrome forked from Webkit, which forked from KHTML, which apparently dates from 4th November 1998, so Chrome's base is 25 years and 7 months old tomorrow.
  - ZiiS 2y ago
    KHTML+KJS released in 1998, via WebKit from 2001, in 2008 it gained the Chrome name, but the code has more than 20 years of legacy.
    - rafram 2y ago
      There’s very little WebKit / KHTML code left in Chrome.
      - wizzwizz4 2y ago
        There's very little NT 3.1 code left in Windows, but it's still clear how old that project is.

bowsamic 2y ago

I'm confused, what is the project management structure of SerenityOS now, then?

awesomekling 2y ago
SerenityOS is now controlled by the same group of maintainers that have been managing it for the last couple of years. What happens next is up to them & the community to decide. :)

codetrotter 2y ago

Thank you Andreas for creating both of these projects and for all your work on both of them and for all of the videos you’ve been making along the way while working on them.

HeckFeck 2y ago

I fully respect these reasons, they are logical and well said. But hopefully interest in SerenityOS doesn't taper off due to this. Kling was great at garnering interest with his YouTube videos where he'd go deep into bug fixing and feature development. Certainly, the browser has the most potential and even immediate necessity for the sake of the open Web, but I would still like to daily drive SerenityOS some day. Its aesthetics and holistic architecture are a dream realised. Windows is going down the toilet fast, and Linux lacks the holistic element, so having something that combines the greatest visual design language - mid to late 90s interface guidelines - with the powerful Unix shell would be a huge boon for desktop computing. (Yes OSX has great albeit modern UX with the Unix underpinnings but isn't OSS or affordable to the masses).

prox 2y ago
Oh yes, a MacOS like design but open with Unix, that would be amazing!
- projektfu 2y ago
  That was the plan for Étoilé but it didn't get traction for some reason.
- boxed 2y ago
  macOS is unix... And he seems to not want macOS type design. Unless you mean System 8/9.
  - HeckFeck 2y ago
    Modern macOS design is reasonably consistent but with fewer visual cues - still a step above Windows post-7. And yes, I meant the bezels and skeuomorphism of earlier design - exemplified by Windows 9x-2k and System 8/9, while NeXT and IRIX also deserve a shout.
- pjlegato 2y ago
  MacOS is Unix -- a BSD-derived Unix operating system called "Darwin" underlies the user interface. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system)

trustno2 2y ago

I tried Ladybird browser for fun, and it looks more stable than when I ran it for the last time, which is great! It doesn't properly load the given substack (it seems to stop loading it in the middle), but it looks fine. :) Surprisingly, loading Google Maps even work, but I can't seem to do more than move the map around. Github even works! So far it seems better than Servo in throwing random sites at it, but I last tried Servo years ago so it's not fair. I guess I will try Servo now for the heck of it edit: yeah Servo still seems worse, but it loads the whole substack post :)

rjh29 2y ago
> Github even works! Unsurprisingly github is one of the developer's most frequently used sites when dogfooding the browser so it'll probably always work :)

vrotaru 2y ago

So, in order to write a new browser you first have to write (as a training exercise) a new OS. Not the fastest way, but it seems to work. Best wishes to Andreas.

orlandrescu 2y ago

I really hope Ladybird will become the browser that will put HaikuOS on the map of desktops!

coolcoder613 2y ago
What does Ladybird have to do with Haiku? The Haiku port of Ladybird is pretty out of date, although there is talk on the Haiku forums of reviving it.

doublerabbit 2y ago

[flagged]

awesomekling 2y ago
It should be fairly straightforward to get it running on any mainstream *nix system. I only called out macOS and Linux specifically because we have developers actively using those systems day-to-day. :)
- spookie 2y ago
  I'm sure someone will come and help with the port! It's just a matter of time (:
- doublerabbit 2y ago
  I know my comment comes out negative. Shameful wasn't the right word. It's disappointing that there is no target for *BSD. I'm very respectful for you to attempt such a project. In no way am I dismissing your work but I see more and more projects becoming very mono orientated where it becomes a struggle for other OS's to adopt.
  - Apocryphon 2y ago
    Why FreeBSD and not one of the other BSDs?
    - doublerabbit 2y ago
      Good point. Going forward noted to not miss the others. I've used all three but freebsd has so far been the only one that has stuck.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
brettermeier 2y ago

hurutparittya 2y ago

I might sound jaded, but I'd be more excited for a Chromium fork that focuses on hackability instead of a brand new browser that'll take somewhere between years to ∞ to be even remotely useful. I get why that'd be less fun to work on though.

nicce 2y ago
Isn’t there already quite many Chromium forks? They all have the same issue - the more your code diverges, more additional work it will be. And security patches start lagging.
59nadir 2y ago
There are plenty of Chromium forks, you can go use those. Or just make your own.
rgreekguy 2y ago
Qutebrowser, Nyxt even better for hackability.
Apocryphon 2y ago
Why not directly fork WebKit, as the Orion browser did?

mythz 2y ago

Feels like an end of an Era, I used to enjoy Andreas's SerenityOS YouTube videos as he dropped down and implemented different features of the OS during a video coding session, adding code from UI, emulators, game ports, JS & Jakt programming languages, JITs all the way down to the kernel. SerenityOS was unique in that regard with the entire code-base maintained in a single source tree. I expect interest in SerenityOS will now taper off as a result of this, especially now that SerenityOS is no longer a target for Ladybird.

dither8 2y ago
It was a journey for sure. I never contributed code, but color schemes and emojis. But I always enjoy Andreas' Serenity videos, even some coding videos were good (I cannot code). These are special and will forever live in my heart.

squarefoot 2y ago

This could be a good move, if it frees resources that would then be allocated for the OS itself. To me SerenityOS as a x86 OS is interesting but redundant, while to me would immediately catch attention if ported to ARM or RISC-V and other embedded platforms. Many companies already use sluggish Android or web based solutions to build instrumentation screens and other vertical applications where one needs to show GUI primitives, and to me a native, fast alternative is badly needed. SerenityOS doesn't bring all the cruft that would be completely unnecessary in those systems, hence my idea that in some cases it could become the right tool for the job.

tredre3 2y ago
SerenityOS has (partially) working ports for both ARM and RISC-V already: https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/tree/master/Kernel/Arch https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/tree/master/Kernel/Ar...

pessimizer 2y ago

Ladybird looks amazing and is moving quickly. Without the linkage to SerenityOS, I even feel like looking at the source and seeing if I can get a handle on what's going on. Looks like the idea of writing a new browser engine, or of forking Firefox, wasn't an absurdly impossible thing that would require billions of dollars. If this inspires somebody to take up that charge again, or to pick up Servo from the table, that would be wonderful too.

ssernikk 2y ago
> [...] pick up Servo from the table, that would be wonderful too. I would love to see a servo-based browser in near future!
- materielle 2y ago
  I think it would be interesting to understand why Servo seems to have moved so slow compared to Ladybird. I suspect Ladybird’s success has a lot to do with Andreas himself.
  - fabrice_d 2y ago
    Servo was picked up from hibernation by Igalia about a year ago. They have made very good progress so far, also with a small team. The choice of c++ for Ladybird looks a bit odd, even from code reuse point of view since Firefox, Chrome and obviously Servo can share Rust code (WebKit will likely not?).
    - tedunangst 2y ago
      I don't think sharing rust code with Firefox was a goal for serenityOS.
  - JBits 2y ago
    I think because Servo was orginally focused at researching new techniques for designing a modern browser, not creating something for users to user. Parts of Servo made it into Firefox.

hawski 2y ago

I guess that also means that Jakt language will also stay within SerenityOS realm.

ivanjermakov 2y ago

I feel like this should've been done a while ago. Community was quite split by two projects and it felt like SerenityOS was dragging Ladybird development down, both from sponsor and developer point of view. I'm glad Andreas had committed to this, for the best to both projects.

luke-stanley 2y ago

The web is eating everything. Maybe every app could be structured as if it's a web app or worker service to do everything people expect while being minimal? It's interesting that the OS layer could be even thinner than SerenityOS. With 'Local first' capabilities and the expanding role of web technologies, this is not only possible but could be a good idea. The new Ladybird project will be really interesting; it could be a real alternative browser people want! Being able to boot a good browser on multiple operating systems, such as a minimal BSD, a minimal Linux from scratch style OS, or even a stripped-down SerenityOS variation, is exciting. This could be more secure and easier to innovate with because it has a better level of abstractions to draw upon. The bootable web OS projects like Palm webOS, the booting Gecko/Firefox OS projects, and Chrome OS could offer interesting lessons for Ladybird. Running a browser in a VM, on metal, or on an existing host OS like BSD or Linux is very useful. This approach could be secure and powerful enough to attract users for security, speed, or powerful user-centric reasons (not corporate/adware-centric). Kling and the community he's assembled is "at risk" of helping solve some serious use-cases for people and industries while having fun! Google's OS development with Android, Chrome OS, and Fuchsia may seem complicated compared to what a Ladybird OS could do. Android is complicated and advanced, but in practice, it's bloated and error-prone with terrible complexity. For example, Pixel users miss calls due to bugs, and there are problems calling emergency numbers. Think about the array of Android and iOS exploits. The attack surfaces and codebases are too big! Given its complexity, I can see Google switching to working on Ladybird or a Go/Rust variant. Maybe even Apple will consider this. LLMs are now capable of semi-automatic porting with their large context windows. I think things could change fast, and maybe we'll have secure devices in our pockets one day. I wonder what Alan Kay and his fellow researches would have to say about this.

replete 2y ago

It makes sense if he wants to make a useful web browser and leverage third party technologies for it, Serenity is totally from scratch. This should mean more time being spent on better problems in the web browser through reinventing fewer wheels and probably speed up the development of a new browser engine, which seems pretty interesting to me.

losvedir 2y ago

Oh, this is interesting. As a GitHub sponsor of Andreas for a while now, what does that mean for sponsors? Are we funding exclusively work on LadyBird? (Had we been, for some time already?) Does the SerenityOS project have a GitHub sponsor? I personally had grown more interested in the browser anyway, so I'll just keep sponsoring Andreas, I suppose, unless this all is a prelude to VC investment or a big company acquisition or something...

awesomekling 2y ago
Thank you so much for sponsoring me! :) As I wrote in the announcement, I've already been working primarily on Ladybird for ~2 years already, so you have indeed been sponsoring Ladybird development by sponsoring me. SerenityOS doesn't have a GitHub Sponsors itself, but it does use Polar to allow anyone to directly sponsor work on specific issues. See https://polar.sh/SerenityOS https://polar.sh/SerenityOS And don't worry, there won't be some VC investment or big company buyout.
- dormento 2y ago
  > And don't worry, there won't be some VC investment or big company buyout. I fell for that trick 27 times already, you can't fool me! j/k Thanks for the ride, wish you the best of luck.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- erkkonet 2y ago
  > And don't worry, there won't be some VC investment or big company buyout. That reminds me of Torvalds' statement on Linux: "just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu"

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

aeyes 2y ago

Would you finally consider publishing nightly binaries? With SerenjtyOS you always had the "build it yourself" approach which was probably meant to only attract technical users.

niutech 2y ago
There are no known binaries, although there is an AUR package for Arch Linux: https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/ladybird-git https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/ladybird-git

frankjr 2y ago

What's the plan for Jakt, the programming language? Does it fall under the SerenityOS umbrella? Will LadyBird continue to use C++? The blog post doesn't mention it. https://github.com/SerenityOS/jakt https://github.com/SerenityOS/jakt

robryan 2y ago
It has come up from time to time. From the perspective of LadyBird it is an experiment that ran its course and LadyBird will likely just be c++. From the perspective of serenity os it is still there and mostly compatible if someone is interested to come along and push it forward to be used in the os.
pjmlp 2y ago
Given that the main author is looking into another language, maybe not much left anyway. https://www.sophiajt.com/search-for-easier-safe-systems-programming/ https://www.sophiajt.com/search-for-easier-safe-systems-prog...
- frankjr 2y ago
  And now June is dead too. https://www.sophiajt.com/following-new-paths-ahead/ https://www.sophiajt.com/following-new-paths-ahead/
hypeatei 2y ago
Pretty sure it has been dead for a while. I personally never saw the point but I suppose the whole mantra of Serenity was developing everything from scratch.

MaximilianEmel 2y ago

Have you considered doing a rewrite (or a partial one) now that third-party libraries can be used? To take all your learnings and new opportunities and use them to rearchitect things.

chrismsimpson 2y ago

I think this is likely to kill both projects

dangseesyou 2y ago

[flagged]

low_tech_punk 2y ago

Can we interpret this as good news of Ladybird but bad news for Serenity? If Ladybird drops support for SerenityOS, what would be its built-in browser?

Dessesaf 2y ago
Serenity still has Ladybird as it is right now. So I assume that will become the baseline for "Browser" in SerenityOS going forward, and be developed independently. Whatever the browser in SerenityOS will end up looking like though, I doubt it will see much development. The kinds of people interested in working on browsers will just work on Ladybird. Someone will probably once again port Ladybird to SerenityOS in the future. It won't be part of the main system, but users would be free to install it.

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segasaturn 2y ago

I never got to try SerenityOS due to the developer's bizarre insistence that users compile the OS instead of just providing a precompiled ISO or IMG file. Shame because I appreciated the workhorse 9x aesthetics it had.

paddim8 2y ago
Why is it bizarre? It encouraged people to contribute to the project. It clearly worked out well for them. SerenityOS isn't for regular users, it's for developers.
skeaker 2y ago
You talk like the project is dead, but the blog post emphatically says that it isn't.
niutech 2y ago
There are prebuilt images: https://serenity-builds.halves.dev/ https://serenity-builds.halves.dev/

hypeatei 2y ago

This is really surprising but also not at the same time. Developing a browser engine from scratch is a huge task. I think the writing was on the wall when some big donations were made from various companies (including Shopify) and Andreas hired a full time dev. This will probably mark the beginning of the end for SerenityOS but I guess we'll see. Really enjoy watching the development videos from Andreas' YouTube channel.

jll29 2y ago

Andreas is a fantastic coder and also a great shepherd of geeks (community builder). The split makes sense for practical reasons - I also sense he is personally perhaps more passionate about browser hacking than OS hacking (his own contributions were more to Ladybird than to the OS for about a year as he himself writes). Smart as he is, he may have recognized that he is in a unique position to be able to contribute a cross-platform browser that competes with the big tech companies, where as SerenityOS is essentially more of a toy OS (32 bit, 1990s look and feel, not compatible with important other operating systems, no radically new OS concepts) - without wanting to dimish the contributions of its amazing developers. IMHO, SerenityOS is more about the process of writing code from scratch than the resulting software itself. Its purpose appears to be 1. to prove it is possible despite the naysayers ("only large tech companies can build a browser", "no-one can build an OS from scratch") and 2. to enjoy the coding itself. As other commenters have already stated, the only issue will be taking as much from Ladybird over to SerenityOS as possible.

refulgentis 2y ago
Having watched this over years, and deleted every single comment I've written on it thus far, I'm challenging myself to be honest and forthright. There's another way of looking at, that is confirmed by the same set of facts: - There was an OS project run by an awesome dude with a great story that was seen as in a unique position to compete with big tech companies. - It needed a web browser. - A web browser project was created. - Now, the web browser is in a unique position to compete with big tech companies. - This means it needs to fork itself, and drop support for the OS. That is because the OS project is now a toy. My last deleted comment mentioned my deep respect for Andreas, and that my next milestone for the browser is downloadable builds and/or moving from pre-alpha to alpha (the downloadable builds was listed as a warning it was in pre-alpha). I don't like appearing negative or arguably unsupportive, hence all the deleted comments over the years. But, it's very important to me to make sure there's an accurate signal of what working on your own project looks like. Including the progress rate on things that sound awesome to work on, like an OS or web browser. I've been dreaming of doing that since I was 17, and it took me 18 years of preparation, predominantly careful observation of successes, and failures, to go out on my own successfully.

sedatk 2y ago

Ladybird had a unique position of having been developed from scratch. That had brought a fresh set of eyes to an ancient tech called Web. Leveraging OSS would diminish that aspect, IMHO. What’s your vision Andreas? What are you trying to do with Ladybird as it’s no longer a hobby but a more serious project now?

vitiral 2y ago

Fill your bowl to the brim and it will spill. Keep sharpening your knife and it will blunt. Chase after money and security and your heart will never unclench. Care about people’s approval and you will be their prisoner. Do your work, then step back. The only path to serenity. Tao Te Ching

satvikpendem 2y ago
Ironic.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
MeImCounting 2y ago
Ok yeah but the thing about the knife is just not true, a knifes not sharp until you de-burr it and if you just continue to grind the edge youre going to just be building a bigger burr and removing metal, eventually the knife will be ground away but thats beside the point. Good knife sharpening does only need a bit of grinding until you reach the grit you want and then de-burr but youre not going to make it dull by continuing to remove metal.
- xiaq 2y ago
  That seems to be a bad translation, the original text means something like “sharpen something fully and it won’t last so long” (presumably due to it being more brittle). The text (like the rest of Tao Te Ching) is pretty vague and doesn’t actually refer to knives, so it could also be read metaphorically.
  - MeImCounting 2y ago
    I was being silly and pedantic but thats an interesting distinction! I imagine Laozi probably knew how to have sharp knives so I defer to his wisdom as far as 4th century chinese knives go anyways. Perhaps they used a different technique there and then than the type of knife sharpening I'm familiar with.

denysvitali 2y ago

Andreas is probably the most positive person I can think of. I'm happy to read such an article where for once "forking" isn't associated with a negative event. Best of luck on the new Ladybird adventure, and thanks for all your positivity and contributions!

Touche 2y ago
It's not a negative that SerenityOS no longer has a web browser?
- bigiain 2y ago
  It's getting forked. It's not that SerenityOS is losing anything it already has. Sure, the Ladybird project moving forward is choosing to use different rules/philosophy about using 3rd party code/libraries - but I find it hard to agree with your assertion that this is a negative move.
- netrap 2y ago
  It still has one, but the code is forked and he will be working on the fork not the SerenityOS version.

webprofusion 2y ago

I hope that long term the browser gets first class Windows support (currently it's via linux running under WSL), just because broad reach is best for longevity/sustainable relevance. If you build for a particular shape/character of OS (linux/BSD as it currently stands) then a lot of the abstraction that would be needed for a truly "cross-platform" app doesn't happen.

ComputerGuru 2y ago
Absolutely. As a great example, code that was architected to use either poll/epoll/kqueue/etc and IOCP under Windows was in a great position to just adopt io_uring without much rearchitecting!

modeless 2y ago

Wow, I wonder what libraries Ladybird will start depending on? There are some web features that are backed by the same open source library in all three major browsers, and would be huge projects to reimplement in a compatible and cross-platform way. WebRTC and ANGLE come to mind.

mgarciaisaia 2y ago

I don't know much from Andreas other than reading a couple of his posts from here, but he's a bit of a superhero to me. Wholesomely humble guy that started what's usually deemed as a massive coding project, from scratch, just to put his head out of some shit - and the guy not only manages to make two great projects, but also identify and adult his way out of one of them for both project's good. Respect, man.

account42 2y ago

> Day-to-day communication moves to a new Ladybird Discord server. Really sad to see so many open source communities choosing closed source, walled off and not publicly visible communication channels. > Ladybird now targets Linux and macOS. The SerenityOS target is dropped. Changing the browser development to a cross-platform-first model is great to see but why drop support for its roots completely?

hashtag-til 2y ago
Not really sure how Discord is popular, given it is impossible to search.
- vkoskiv 2y ago
  It's popular because anyone can create their own community with just a few clicks, and it's all paid for by friendly venture capitalists :]
  - niutech 2y ago
    There are free/open source alternatives: Revolt, Spacebar, Element.

niutech 2y ago

Actually Ladybird had its own separate repo before merging with SerenityOS monorepo: https://github.com/SerenityOS/ladybird https://github.com/SerenityOS/ladybird, so now it's like reverting it.

dizhn 2y ago

I take this as very good news because like Andreas I am much more interested in the browser too. (I never liked the OS aesthetic they are targeting when it was current and I don't care for it now). Though I wish they still targeted Serenity OS. I guess the expectation is for someone to fork the more general browser to Serenity at a later date. That's not a bad plan either since the incompleteness of the OS is bound to hold the browser back. This whole thing is one of my most favorite things to happen in open source software. Andreas already succeeded in getting people to look at OS and browser development in a new way. All the best to them.