9 ms·

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

120 points by elikoga 2y ago

nightowl_games 2y ago
Can anybody more knowledgeable than me clarify how a project like Fedora Silverblue compares to Nix? I know Nix has the declarative configuration, but do you get the same reproducibility out of Silverblue?
- ParetoOptimal 2y ago
  My knowledge is that Silverblue is kind of image based and you get reproducibility with snapshots. This makes me think it's like docker. Whereas Nix is about reproducibility all the way down to the individual libraries and software.
benreesman 2y ago
There are too many stakeholders, it’s too forkable (guix, flox, Anduril). Maybe the official leadership has a shuffle, maybe it’s even big. I’m not changing my Nix investment, I discourage others from changing theirs.
- lambdaba 2y ago
  Me neither. Mocking Nix is the new mocking "I use Arch BTW" but when you're deep in it you realize it absolutely is the way, and if it's not Nix or Nix in some more evolved form it will be something very close to it.
- slekker 2y ago
  What does guix have to do with Nix (genuine question, not snarky)?
  - busterarm 2y ago
    Guix was based on Nix.
  - ddellacosta 2y ago
    It's a bit hidden in their about page: GNU Guix provides state-of-the-art package management features such as transactional upgrades and roll-backs, reproducible build environments, unprivileged package management, and per-user profiles. It uses low-level mechanisms from the Nix package manager, but packages are defined as native Guile modules, using extensions to the Scheme language—which makes it nicely hackable. https://guix.gnu.org/en/about/ https://guix.gnu.org/en/about/
    - brabel 2y ago
      If I understand correctly, they're saying that the low level stuff works the way it works in Nix, not that they use Nix for that. I am aware Guix did fork Nix but from what I've read, there's almost nothing left in Guix that still uses the initial Nix code?
      - jbboehr 2y ago
        I am extremely out of the loop, but I believe until somewhat recently it still used nix-daemon and the corresponding drv format, but it may have since been rewritten.
  - hprotagonist 2y ago
    same idea, but in a scheme.
- ahnix 2y ago
  [dead]
busterarm 2y ago
This seems more like a community crisis around Nix than a leadership crisis in the Nix community.
- yifanl 2y ago
  What does a community crisis mean exactly? If every member of the community wants one thing, and the leadership doesn't, then the community wins, every time.
  - busterarm 2y ago
    https://github.com/nrdxp/rfc-evidence/blob/dfe80298dddf9858a361ab18a11721119691c40e/rfc_evidences_experiences.md https://github.com/nrdxp/rfc-evidence/blob/dfe80298dddf9858a...
    - ParetoOptimal 2y ago
      Quotes from the article linked: > the community is heavily leaning into what might be termed the myth of marginalization > this group, still upset about the failure of RFC 98, is using the myth of fascism How can one take this document seriously after reading these sentences?
      - Pannoniae 2y ago
        The document uses support for its claims. Yup, the language is obviously quite emotional and biased, but the facts are correct nonetheless. Do you have any particular/specific issues with the issues raised in this RFC?^^
        ParetoOptimal 2y ago
        How is this claim supported: > Simultaneously, this group, still upset about the failure of RFC 98, is using the myth of fascism combined with an abusive extension of the paradox of tolerance (originally formulated by Karl Popper with a very different intent) to portray their opponents as bad-faith actors, or even as outright evil. They themselves, of course, do everything they can to appear justified in exercising power with absolutely no accountability, and with a clear sense of their own privileged entitlement to do so
aredox 2y ago
The main reason for the persistence of Nix despite its warts and general mess is just "first-mover advantage": it was the first, therefore it has more libraries/packages/development of the ecosystem than the alternatives. Stop being lazy, go back to engineering first principles and it makes little sense to stay with Nix. Guix or any rewrite as a library in a well-developed language* makes more sense. *For example, why are Haskellians using Nix so much instead of integrating its concepts into their own tooling?
- ParetoOptimal 2y ago
  Cabal has had nix-style local builds since 2016: https://blog.ezyang.com/2016/05/announcing-cabal-new-build-nix-style-local-builds/ https://blog.ezyang.com/2016/05/announcing-cabal-new-build-n... https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/2.0/nix-local-build-overview.html https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/2.0/nix-local-build-overview... Also cabal isn't positioned to be a system level package manager. Haskell programmers are the type to want both their application builds and system dependencies to be reproducible and predictable. > Stop being lazy, go back to engineering first principles and it makes little sense to stay with Nix. Guix or any rewrite as a library in a well-developed language* makes more sense. Getting Guix packages to be as complete as nixpkgs isn't a matter of laziness though. One person wouldn't be able to do it no matter how disciplined they were.
  - Macha 2y ago
    You'll also need to deal with project philosophy regarding closed source packages to get Guix as streamlined as Nix.
  - karma_pharmer 2y ago
    Cabal has had nix-style local builds since 2016: That's a bug not a feature. Every language these days is trying to force you to use its own badly-implemented imitation of Nix. Just look at what cargo does with the target/ directory and wonky "build fingerprints". It's madness.
    - mikepurvis 2y ago
jsyang00 2y ago
The Anduril issue seems to have been the main catalyst for the drama. Seems like Anduril probably did more harm then good - who at Anduril couldn't have predicted that the Nix folks would start to have a major freakout the minute they attempted to sponsor?
- bitfilped 2y ago
  Anduril could have predicted this had they actually asked/engaged the community and not just Eelco.
- ParetoOptimal 2y ago
  It's worse because after the first time much of the community was trying to write it off as a simple mistake or miscommunication. It became evident after the second time though that this was very on purpose and it was known there would be an issue.
  - jonringer117 2y ago
    Well, the activity around changing the status quo was done in a github issue [1]. Which sat around for many months after proposing the Apache Software Foundation's sponsorship policy of "state of nexus". Which didn't give a basis in which to exclude Anduril from sponsoring again. Obviously there's the "people were angry last time, they will likely be angry this time". But that's projecting personal/political views into a sponsorship. What should have been the right course of action? I'm not sure. "Tech is easy, people are hard" 1: https://github.com/NixOS/foundation/issues/110 https://github.com/NixOS/foundation/issues/110
    - jijijijij 2y ago
      Well, you should know, since you have been involved with both Nix and Anduril, right?! No MIC sponsoring would have been the right course of action. No matter your sympathies, or alliances in your case. To even think of the sponsorship as a valid idea is US centric ignorance. Outside the US people don't get the "Thank you for your service" indoctrination and are way, way more reluctant to work with the MIC. If you knew anything about Germany, the issue with the university host should not have surprised you at all. It's not some modern outrage of wokeism, it's a decades old academic foundation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_clause https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_clause It's hard to find a German university without: http://www.zivilklausel.de/index.php/bestehende-zivilklauseln http://www.zivilklausel.de/index.php/bestehende-zivilklausel... Losing VOC support, eh?! Have you been to a CCC event? MIC sponsorship of Nix would lose you more or less the entire German hacker scene, at the very least. A national defense company sponsoring an international software project, not expecting uproar... I don't know what to say. It's beyond plausibly idiotic. Objectively, completely out of touch.
Laaas 2y ago
I think it’s important to make clear that the letter is mostly bogus and almost libelous. Check into any one claim, and you’ll find it’s not the entire story. This however is true: > The Foundation board has unrepresentative composition relative to the community because, due to our count, all current members are cisgender, white-passing, men, one of whom has done military service, and one other (Eelco) likely relies on undisclosed military-tech work.
- retool 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - giraffe_lady 2y ago
    How is it slanderous to point out the board composition is not representative of the community. Seriously walk me through this one.
    - Pannoniae 2y ago
      Mostly because they have double standards. If 100% of the board was "diverse" in some way, they would claim that it compensates for historical injustices or something. If they were truly serious about inclusion, it would be completely fine, but this is just authoritarian assholes hiding behind the veneer of "fighting against fascism" (in the document posted by @busterarm, some of these people even openly advocate doxxing their political opponents)
      - ParetoOptimal 2y ago
        > . If they were truly serious about inclusion, it would be completely fine, but this is just authoritarian assholes hiding behind the veneer of "fighting against fascism" People arguing from the direction you seem to be usually are big about not assuming intent... why assume intent here? How can you prove they don't both believe they are fighting about fascism and care about that fight?
themgt 2y ago
That same day, Samuel Dionne-Riel stated that Dolstra had refused to clarify whether he had a relationship with Anduril and asked Christensen, a co-founder of Determinate Systems: "Does DetSys have or had relationships with Anduril?" Christensen replied: "Did you know this category of question is pretty much impossible to answer because NDAs are a thing?" [Determinate Systems] produces its own installer for Nix that the company promises will provide stable support for some Nix features. The letter states: "This is fine, however, it is questionably acceptable to do that while employing the lead developer of CppNix [the main Nix implementation] and saying nothing about how this will interact with the team's [decision-making] autonomy." So "DetSys" is a commercial provider of Nix services, making corporate promises about future Nix feature support and (presumably) contracting with Anduril whose current focus is Shahed-inspired kamikaze drones, while wearing a separate hat as board chair of NixOS Foundation. Effectively the tl;dr is whether Nix foundation should be bankrolled by the DoD, feature roadmap guided by the needs of mass produced suicide drones. And if they are, do other contributors want to continue providing free R&D for that organization?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
suddenclarity 2y ago
Skimming the letter makes it look like another attempt at pushing through their Code of Conduct (RFC98) targeting "ideas rooted in fascism or bigotry", whatever that means. Now going a step further by erasing the people in charge.
- busterarm 2y ago
  The article I linked here (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40199727 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40199727) provides evidence for exactly that.
- ParetoOptimal 2y ago
  > targeting "ideas rooted in fascism or bigotry" Is targeting "ideas rooted in fascism or bigotry" a bad thing?
  - nh23423fefe 2y ago
    Making up dubious connections to wrongthink is a bad thing.
  - rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 2y ago
    When, for people pushing this targeting, fascism/bigotry means having a branch in your repo names master I absolutely believe targeting ideas rooted in fascism/bigotry is a bad thing.
    - tripdout 2y ago
      On one hand, I struggle to think that people might actually care about switching "master" to "main", as opposed to making wider improvements to inclusivity. On the other hand, I don't have a strong attachment at all to naming a branch "master" and can easily rename it without a second thought.
      - ParetoOptimal 2y ago
        > On one hand, I struggle to think that people might actually care about switching "master" to "main", as opposed to making wider improvements to inclusivity. I thought it wasn't a big issue until I saw how hard one side fought to keep the name "master". After that I changed my mind and name all of my branches main and give a little push to projects I'm part of to do the same. Plus, words do have power: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51USLgPWhgc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51USLgPWhgc
ordinaryradical 2y ago
Dolstra nailed it: > It is my opinion that it is not for us, as open source software developers, to decide whose views are valid and whose are not, and to allow or disallow project or conference participation as a result. You really should not be in open source if you believe it is your purview to ideologically police the usage and contribution to your software. That notion is incompatible with the spirit of the endeavor.
- danhor 2y ago
  Isn't that exactly what the free software movement is based upon? You can only use our software if you agree to share your source code modifications with the binary (death to proprietary software, very ideological) and you can only contribute if you agree if that.
  - binary132 2y ago
    the term you’re looking for is “license agreement”
  - dzogchen 2y ago
    The free software zealots are a tiny fraction of the open source community.
    - salviati 2y ago
      My understanding of your comment is that "free software zealots" are people who belong to the "free software movement" [1]. If that's correct, where did you get the impression it's "a tiny fraction of the open source community"? This article [2] from 2022 states that 22% of software project have a copyleft license. Is that a fraction you'd deem "tiny"? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software_movement [2] https://www.mend.io/blog/open-source-licenses-trends-and-predictions/ https://www.mend.io/blog/open-source-licenses-trends-and-pre...
      - grayhatter 2y ago
gizmo 2y ago
I don't have any knowledge about nix, the community, about Eelco Dolstra, or about this particular drama. What I do know is that there is no such thing as "community leadership" and that extremely long diatribes about the flaws of the founder can be safely ignored. People who are unhappy with the community or the direction of nix should leave and start their own thing. They'll discover that building something is actually a great deal harder than it looks from the outside.
- joepie91_ 2y ago
  I imagine that the people who are unhappy about things are well aware of that, given that they generally are the people who have built NixOS to the point where it is now... It sure is remarkable how many people seem to be assuming that the people complaining must just be some outsiders with no involvement in the project. It's maybe worth asking yourself where that assumption comes from.
  - gizmo 2y ago
    The letter is authored by "anonymous contributors", actually. This suggests the authors are minor contributors at the periphery of the project.
    - joepie91_ 2y ago
      It does not. And not only is this particular letter signed by many active contributors, the issues far predate this one letter (with this one demand), and many well-known contributors have been involved in speaking out against the current situation. You're not going to understand complex governance issues and their history from a read of a single article or letter. Consequently, you probably should refrain from drawing conclusions that way.
      - gizmo 2y ago
        The letter is an unhinged diatribe written by anonymous authors and should be disregarded on that basis.
zer00eyz 2y ago
NO one wants to admit that the tyranny of leadership is probably a good thing for a projects success. DDH, Linus, Poettering, Im sure someone is offended by hearing one of these names, but look at the status and reputation of their projects. Now go look at Wayland, or Rust who lack these guiding voices... Note that if you did in deep on these projects your likely going to need some popcorn to go with the soap opera levels of drama. Nix is going to be interesting to watch in the coming months.
- ParetoOptimal 2y ago
  > NO one wants to admit that the tyranny of leadership is probably a good thing for a projects success. I don't disagree, but it needs to be communicated upfront and transparent without some guise of it being anything else so that potential contributors can decide if it's right for them from the outset.
  - busterarm 2y ago
    The very people decrying the lack of leadership transparency on the moderation team do their work behind closed doors, don't operate with transparency or consistency and disallow all meta discussion of their moderation work. Oh and ban anyone that openly disagrees with their values.
    - ParetoOptimal 2y ago
      > The very people decrying the lack of leadership transparency on the moderation team do their work behind closed doors, don't operate with transparency or consistency and disallow all meta discussion of their moderation work. This just isn't true. See "Transparency about jonringers suspension"[0] and also notice it's a suspension and not a ban. Note that Jon's post to reddit titled it a "ban". Which side seems to be trying to stir things up here? Also, before that discourse post there has always been a public moderation log here: https://github.com/NixOS/moderation/commit/c0f7744701cba40f05fa7ca62f0d143d7231332a https://github.com/NixOS/moderation/commit/c0f7744701cba40f0... 0: https://discourse.nixos.org/t/why-was-jon-ringer-banned-from-github/44114/23 https://discourse.nixos.org/t/why-was-jon-ringer-banned-from...
otabdeveloper4 2y ago
> ...are going to be interpreted as a bunch of left-wing people taking over the project Yeah, it's a bunch of left-wing malcontents trying to take over a project. Anyways, Nix is very much decentralized as far as open-source projects go.
- ParetoOptimal 2y ago
  > Yeah, it's a bunch of left-wing malcontents trying to take over a project. Or a bunch of people who were told they have a voice, put in time/work under that assumption, then when it came time for their voice to count were just ignored. But I bet life sure is easy when you can just label people something nasty and dismiss their worthless opinions outright.
  - fireflash38 2y ago
    Is it a technical thing they are being ignored about or are they trying to exclude people?
cosmic_quanta 2y ago
> Anduril, a military contractor that uses NixOS, has repeatedly attempted to become a sponsor of NixCon, which did not go over well with the community Something similar happened in the Haskell community, where some people called for Anduril job postings to be removed. Nix is a software project, not a social movement. The goals of Nix are entirely separate from how the software is used. I really like Coinbase's statement that is is mission focused (https://www.coinbase.com/en-ca/blog/coinbase-is-a-mission-focused-company https://www.coinbase.com/en-ca/blog/coinbase-is-a-mission-fo...). Anything that isn't directly related to its mission is out-of-scope. I wish the same was true about software projects like Nix. If you care about the way your software is used, then by all means, say it in the license! Of course, such software won't get used much.
- dilyevsky 2y ago
  It’s doubly funny with haskell considering the biggest haskell shop i am aware of has a lot of defense contracts
- ParetoOptimal 2y ago
  > Nix is a software project, not a social movement. Upholding the status quo is a social (and political) movement, it's just the most popular and accepted one.
  - zer00eyz 2y ago
    By that rational: Do you eat food, drink coffee, chocolate. Do you avail yourself of modern pharmacology. Everything you do upholds a status quo of human suffering. You posting on HN is a political statement, from a place of privilege, by that rational. It's a software project, dont make it political and it will be successful.
    - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
      Yet you participate in society. Curious.
freedomben 2y ago
This is a meta comment, but the (apparent) style of using a different color (red) to indicate direct quotes is interesting. At first I found it confusing and a little distracting, but on the second pass where my goal was to cleanly separate the author's opinion from the sources, it was extremely helpful.
- ParetoOptimal 2y ago
  I agree. I also found this both interesting and strange at first, but ultimately very helpful.
- pantsforbirds 2y ago
  I wonder if the inspiration for this comes from Bibles? It's a common practice to have direct quotes from Jesus in red.
  - freedomben 2y ago
    I had the same thought! I dismissed it though as perhaps coincidence because anyone used to reading a "red text" bible may find it offensive or at least distasteful to equate other people's words with Jesus. I could very well be overthinking that though and/or be projecting my own religious upbringing (where blasphemy and sacrilegiosity are very sensitive and highly frowned upon. Even saying "he" instead of "He" is looked at as skirting the line).
    - pantsforbirds 2y ago
      It is a very practical way to show someone is being quoted though.
  - indrora 2y ago
    Something like that. It's specifically for quotations that come from other sources and are presented verbatim; In the LWN UI settings: "These preferences affect how text that is quoted from other sources (press articles or whatever) in LWN news articles is rendered in your browser."
jdoss 2y ago
The reaction to Anduril sponsoring Nix is very similar to some people's reaction at Kubecon 2018 where the U.S. Air Force gave a talk about how they are using k8s to deploy software on F-16s. https://thenewstack.io/how-the-u-s-air-force-deployed-kubernetes-and-istio-on-an-f-16-in-45-days/ https://thenewstack.io/how-the-u-s-air-force-deployed-kubern...
thuuuomas 2y ago
Culture war grandstanding drowning out the much more interesting discussion around Determinate System’s pledge to support the long-debated Nix Flakes officially. Nix Flakes looking like the real source of the schism in the Nix community.
- ParetoOptimal 2y ago
  > Nix Flakes looking like the real source of the schism in the Nix community. No. In the talks about the fork because of the real issue of MIC sponsorship there was disagreement about whether flakes should be the default among those against MIC sponsorship. They are both issues, but the most pressing one causing large contributors to leave is the MIC sponsorship issue. The flakes/no-flakes issue existed before and wasn't causing large contributors to leave.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- tempaccount420 2y ago
  Flakes should be either stabilized, reworked or rejected already. They have been unstable for far too long, the damage they have caused the ecosystem is huge...
tripdout 2y ago
I really don't see the problem with accepting sponsorship money from Anduril. Rejecting it just results in less improvements and exposure for Nix. They're going to continue to use Nix either way, and in the same way that the community can fork Nix because they're unhappy with the sponsorship, so can Anduril - and their fork might just be private. Defence companies and all sorts of other companies that people might disagree with heavily use open source projects.
binary132 2y ago
Witch hunt detected. Turning care knob straight to zero. Maybe I’ll tune back in if there’s a change in the wind.
stonewall 2y ago
Seems like this is becoming the terminal phase of the FOSS lifecycle for many projects. I wonder what makes some long-lived communities immune to this behavior...OpenBSD comes to mind.
- jijijijij 2y ago
  https://www.computerworld.com/article/1338390/darpa-pulls-funding-for-openbsd-leader-says.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/1338390/darpa-pulls-fu...
- karma_pharmer 2y ago
  Github culture is the infection vector. That's why OpenBSD is unaffected. Hygiene, folks. Also could be the fact that the entire reason OpenBSD exists is that De Raadt got cancelled out of NetBSD: http://mail-index.netbsd.org/netbsd-users/1994/12/23/0000.html http://mail-index.netbsd.org/netbsd-users/1994/12/23/0000.ht...
eduction 2y ago
> In short, Dolstra is acting as "the effective Benevolent Dictator for Life (BDFL)" of the project, even though the NixOS Foundation's charter doesn't grant anyone that authority. This is silly - authority in a software community doesn’t come from a nonprofit charter. Being founder is also no guarantee of authority, but it is more relevant because it’s rooted in actions and outcomes. The more I observe from the sidelines of open source the less attention I pay to these sorts of disputes. In the end they are all adjudicated by delivering useful software and updates quickly to end users. Whoever does that better “wins.” Sometimes this is the founder of the project and sometimes not. In general I think it’s a mistake to think anyone cares all the much about anything beyond the license, capabilities of the software, and how quickly the community/maintainers fix bugs. They may say they do but people who are taking software for free are in no position to dictate much and at the end of the day they know and accept it (especially something like who sponsors a conference, who is the keynote speaker (Rails incident) etc)
- saulrh 2y ago
  The letter's entire criticism is that Dolstra is clinging to that position through an extended, conflict-of-interest-ridden campaign of toxic behavior and that this toxic behavior is preventing Nix from "delivering useful software and updates quickly to end users."
  - eduction 2y ago
    Right and if that’s all true he will ignore them and they will eventually fork and bury him. But personally I try to ignore letters like this especially if I’m not personally in the community (but even then sometimes) because words are cheap.
steve1977 2y ago
People seem to forget that a lot if not most of IT has some form of military background/funding behind it. Be it the first computers, the Internet, RISC CPUs, BSD UNIX and much much more. You’re free not to like this fact of course, but then using the technologies anyway is a bit of a double standard.
- myaccountonhn 2y ago
  I think it’s different to actively endorse something vs having it be used for something. If you’re working in a community producing axes and you’re later seeing the organization advertising them for murder instead of cutting down trees, you might understandably not wanna be part of it anymore or try to change the organization.
  - steve1977 2y ago
    But a lot of the technologies were explicitly designed with military use in mind. It’s not like some unintended and unplanned side effect. So a better analogy would be swords that can also be used to cut fruit instead of killing maybe.
    - myaccountonhn 2y ago
      But we’re in a thread about leadership crisis of nix here. Was nix designed explicitly for military in mind?
      - steve1977 2y ago
        I don't know. The designer and founder of nix at least does not seem to explicitly exclude military use. From what I understand, this is actually the root cause of the conflict here; the founder of the project seems to be fine with military use, some other members of the community are not.
- dwb 2y ago
  Are you really expecting people critical of the US military to not use computers, else be keeping a "double standard"?
deleted 2y ago
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natsucks 2y ago
[flagged]
jonringer117 2y ago
For those that are curious about an alternative perspective on this matter, I detailed much of my personal views in my reddit suspension post. I don't have much context on the EU NixCon 2023 events, but I've been actively involved with the project for 2019, 2020, 2021, beginning of 2022, and late 2023. https://www.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1cd5fod/in_case_im_unable_to_return_wish_you_all_the_best/ https://www.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1cd5fod/in_case_im_u...
srid 2y ago
Related submissions: Open letter to the NixOS foundation (50 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40107370 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40107370 The dire state of NixOS's moderation culture (76 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40166912 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40166912 --- Additionally, these r/NixOS submissions may be of interest: Jon Ringer: "In case I'm unable to return, wish you all the best" (348 comments) https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1cd5fod/in_case_im_unable_to_return_wish_you_all_the_best/ https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1cd5fod/in_case_im_u... Transparency about jonringer’s suspension (153 comments) https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1ceeg8h/transparency_about_jonringers_suspension/ https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1ceeg8h/transparency... Thoughts on Jon Ringer's temporary suspension (71 comments) https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1ceiz36/thoughts_on_jon_ringers_temporary_suspension/ https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1ceiz36/thoughts_on_... Moderation no-go zones (55 comments; ongoing) https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1cfv8vo/moderation_nogo_zones/ https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1cfv8vo/moderation_n... --- Finally, the RFC to improve the situation: https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/175 https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/175

120 points by elikoga 2y ago

Can anybody more knowledgeable than me clarify how a project like Fedora Silverblue compares to Nix? I know Nix has the declarative configuration, but do you get the same reproducibility out of Silverblue?

ParetoOptimal 2y ago
My knowledge is that Silverblue is kind of image based and you get reproducibility with snapshots. This makes me think it's like docker. Whereas Nix is about reproducibility all the way down to the individual libraries and software.

benreesman 2y ago

There are too many stakeholders, it’s too forkable (guix, flox, Anduril). Maybe the official leadership has a shuffle, maybe it’s even big. I’m not changing my Nix investment, I discourage others from changing theirs.

lambdaba 2y ago
Me neither. Mocking Nix is the new mocking "I use Arch BTW" but when you're deep in it you realize it absolutely is the way, and if it's not Nix or Nix in some more evolved form it will be something very close to it.
slekker 2y ago
What does guix have to do with Nix (genuine question, not snarky)?
- busterarm 2y ago
  Guix was based on Nix.
- ddellacosta 2y ago
  It's a bit hidden in their about page: GNU Guix provides state-of-the-art package management features such as transactional upgrades and roll-backs, reproducible build environments, unprivileged package management, and per-user profiles. It uses low-level mechanisms from the Nix package manager, but packages are defined as native Guile modules, using extensions to the Scheme language—which makes it nicely hackable. https://guix.gnu.org/en/about/ https://guix.gnu.org/en/about/
  - brabel 2y ago
    If I understand correctly, they're saying that the low level stuff works the way it works in Nix, not that they use Nix for that. I am aware Guix did fork Nix but from what I've read, there's almost nothing left in Guix that still uses the initial Nix code?
    - jbboehr 2y ago
      I am extremely out of the loop, but I believe until somewhat recently it still used nix-daemon and the corresponding drv format, but it may have since been rewritten.
- hprotagonist 2y ago
  same idea, but in a scheme.
ahnix 2y ago
[dead]

busterarm 2y ago

This seems more like a community crisis around Nix than a leadership crisis in the Nix community.

yifanl 2y ago
What does a community crisis mean exactly? If every member of the community wants one thing, and the leadership doesn't, then the community wins, every time.
- busterarm 2y ago
  https://github.com/nrdxp/rfc-evidence/blob/dfe80298dddf9858a361ab18a11721119691c40e/rfc_evidences_experiences.md https://github.com/nrdxp/rfc-evidence/blob/dfe80298dddf9858a...
  - ParetoOptimal 2y ago
    Quotes from the article linked: > the community is heavily leaning into what might be termed the myth of marginalization > this group, still upset about the failure of RFC 98, is using the myth of fascism How can one take this document seriously after reading these sentences?
    - Pannoniae 2y ago
      The document uses support for its claims. Yup, the language is obviously quite emotional and biased, but the facts are correct nonetheless. Do you have any particular/specific issues with the issues raised in this RFC?^^
      - ParetoOptimal 2y ago
        How is this claim supported: > Simultaneously, this group, still upset about the failure of RFC 98, is using the myth of fascism combined with an abusive extension of the paradox of tolerance (originally formulated by Karl Popper with a very different intent) to portray their opponents as bad-faith actors, or even as outright evil. They themselves, of course, do everything they can to appear justified in exercising power with absolutely no accountability, and with a clear sense of their own privileged entitlement to do so

aredox 2y ago

The main reason for the persistence of Nix despite its warts and general mess is just "first-mover advantage": it was the first, therefore it has more libraries/packages/development of the ecosystem than the alternatives. Stop being lazy, go back to engineering first principles and it makes little sense to stay with Nix. Guix or any rewrite as a library in a well-developed language* makes more sense. *For example, why are Haskellians using Nix so much instead of integrating its concepts into their own tooling?

ParetoOptimal 2y ago
Cabal has had nix-style local builds since 2016: https://blog.ezyang.com/2016/05/announcing-cabal-new-build-nix-style-local-builds/ https://blog.ezyang.com/2016/05/announcing-cabal-new-build-n... https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/2.0/nix-local-build-overview.html https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/2.0/nix-local-build-overview... Also cabal isn't positioned to be a system level package manager. Haskell programmers are the type to want both their application builds and system dependencies to be reproducible and predictable. > Stop being lazy, go back to engineering first principles and it makes little sense to stay with Nix. Guix or any rewrite as a library in a well-developed language* makes more sense. Getting Guix packages to be as complete as nixpkgs isn't a matter of laziness though. One person wouldn't be able to do it no matter how disciplined they were.
- Macha 2y ago
  You'll also need to deal with project philosophy regarding closed source packages to get Guix as streamlined as Nix.
- karma_pharmer 2y ago
  Cabal has had nix-style local builds since 2016: That's a bug not a feature. Every language these days is trying to force you to use its own badly-implemented imitation of Nix. Just look at what cargo does with the target/ directory and wonky "build fingerprints". It's madness.
  - mikepurvis 2y ago

jsyang00 2y ago

The Anduril issue seems to have been the main catalyst for the drama. Seems like Anduril probably did more harm then good - who at Anduril couldn't have predicted that the Nix folks would start to have a major freakout the minute they attempted to sponsor?

bitfilped 2y ago
Anduril could have predicted this had they actually asked/engaged the community and not just Eelco.
ParetoOptimal 2y ago
It's worse because after the first time much of the community was trying to write it off as a simple mistake or miscommunication. It became evident after the second time though that this was very on purpose and it was known there would be an issue.
- jonringer117 2y ago
  Well, the activity around changing the status quo was done in a github issue [1]. Which sat around for many months after proposing the Apache Software Foundation's sponsorship policy of "state of nexus". Which didn't give a basis in which to exclude Anduril from sponsoring again. Obviously there's the "people were angry last time, they will likely be angry this time". But that's projecting personal/political views into a sponsorship. What should have been the right course of action? I'm not sure. "Tech is easy, people are hard" 1: https://github.com/NixOS/foundation/issues/110 https://github.com/NixOS/foundation/issues/110
  - jijijijij 2y ago
    Well, you should know, since you have been involved with both Nix and Anduril, right?! No MIC sponsoring would have been the right course of action. No matter your sympathies, or alliances in your case. To even think of the sponsorship as a valid idea is US centric ignorance. Outside the US people don't get the "Thank you for your service" indoctrination and are way, way more reluctant to work with the MIC. If you knew anything about Germany, the issue with the university host should not have surprised you at all. It's not some modern outrage of wokeism, it's a decades old academic foundation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_clause https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_clause It's hard to find a German university without: http://www.zivilklausel.de/index.php/bestehende-zivilklauseln http://www.zivilklausel.de/index.php/bestehende-zivilklausel... Losing VOC support, eh?! Have you been to a CCC event? MIC sponsorship of Nix would lose you more or less the entire German hacker scene, at the very least. A national defense company sponsoring an international software project, not expecting uproar... I don't know what to say. It's beyond plausibly idiotic. Objectively, completely out of touch.

Laaas 2y ago

I think it’s important to make clear that the letter is mostly bogus and almost libelous. Check into any one claim, and you’ll find it’s not the entire story. This however is true: > The Foundation board has unrepresentative composition relative to the community because, due to our count, all current members are cisgender, white-passing, men, one of whom has done military service, and one other (Eelco) likely relies on undisclosed military-tech work.

retool 2y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  How is it slanderous to point out the board composition is not representative of the community. Seriously walk me through this one.
  - Pannoniae 2y ago
    Mostly because they have double standards. If 100% of the board was "diverse" in some way, they would claim that it compensates for historical injustices or something. If they were truly serious about inclusion, it would be completely fine, but this is just authoritarian assholes hiding behind the veneer of "fighting against fascism" (in the document posted by @busterarm, some of these people even openly advocate doxxing their political opponents)
    - ParetoOptimal 2y ago
      > . If they were truly serious about inclusion, it would be completely fine, but this is just authoritarian assholes hiding behind the veneer of "fighting against fascism" People arguing from the direction you seem to be usually are big about not assuming intent... why assume intent here? How can you prove they don't both believe they are fighting about fascism and care about that fight?

themgt 2y ago

That same day, Samuel Dionne-Riel stated that Dolstra had refused to clarify whether he had a relationship with Anduril and asked Christensen, a co-founder of Determinate Systems: "Does DetSys have or had relationships with Anduril?" Christensen replied: "Did you know this category of question is pretty much impossible to answer because NDAs are a thing?" [Determinate Systems] produces its own installer for Nix that the company promises will provide stable support for some Nix features. The letter states: "This is fine, however, it is questionably acceptable to do that while employing the lead developer of CppNix [the main Nix implementation] and saying nothing about how this will interact with the team's [decision-making] autonomy." So "DetSys" is a commercial provider of Nix services, making corporate promises about future Nix feature support and (presumably) contracting with Anduril whose current focus is Shahed-inspired kamikaze drones, while wearing a separate hat as board chair of NixOS Foundation. Effectively the tl;dr is whether Nix foundation should be bankrolled by the DoD, feature roadmap guided by the needs of mass produced suicide drones. And if they are, do other contributors want to continue providing free R&D for that organization?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

suddenclarity 2y ago

Skimming the letter makes it look like another attempt at pushing through their Code of Conduct (RFC98) targeting "ideas rooted in fascism or bigotry", whatever that means. Now going a step further by erasing the people in charge.

busterarm 2y ago
The article I linked here (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40199727 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40199727) provides evidence for exactly that.
ParetoOptimal 2y ago
> targeting "ideas rooted in fascism or bigotry" Is targeting "ideas rooted in fascism or bigotry" a bad thing?
- nh23423fefe 2y ago
  Making up dubious connections to wrongthink is a bad thing.
- rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 2y ago
  When, for people pushing this targeting, fascism/bigotry means having a branch in your repo names master I absolutely believe targeting ideas rooted in fascism/bigotry is a bad thing.
  - tripdout 2y ago
    On one hand, I struggle to think that people might actually care about switching "master" to "main", as opposed to making wider improvements to inclusivity. On the other hand, I don't have a strong attachment at all to naming a branch "master" and can easily rename it without a second thought.
    - ParetoOptimal 2y ago
      > On one hand, I struggle to think that people might actually care about switching "master" to "main", as opposed to making wider improvements to inclusivity. I thought it wasn't a big issue until I saw how hard one side fought to keep the name "master". After that I changed my mind and name all of my branches main and give a little push to projects I'm part of to do the same. Plus, words do have power: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51USLgPWhgc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51USLgPWhgc

ordinaryradical 2y ago

Dolstra nailed it: > It is my opinion that it is not for us, as open source software developers, to decide whose views are valid and whose are not, and to allow or disallow project or conference participation as a result. You really should not be in open source if you believe it is your purview to ideologically police the usage and contribution to your software. That notion is incompatible with the spirit of the endeavor.

danhor 2y ago
Isn't that exactly what the free software movement is based upon? You can only use our software if you agree to share your source code modifications with the binary (death to proprietary software, very ideological) and you can only contribute if you agree if that.
- binary132 2y ago
  the term you’re looking for is “license agreement”
- dzogchen 2y ago
  The free software zealots are a tiny fraction of the open source community.
  - salviati 2y ago
    My understanding of your comment is that "free software zealots" are people who belong to the "free software movement" [1]. If that's correct, where did you get the impression it's "a tiny fraction of the open source community"? This article [2] from 2022 states that 22% of software project have a copyleft license. Is that a fraction you'd deem "tiny"? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software_movement [2] https://www.mend.io/blog/open-source-licenses-trends-and-predictions/ https://www.mend.io/blog/open-source-licenses-trends-and-pre...
    - grayhatter 2y ago

gizmo 2y ago

I don't have any knowledge about nix, the community, about Eelco Dolstra, or about this particular drama. What I do know is that there is no such thing as "community leadership" and that extremely long diatribes about the flaws of the founder can be safely ignored. People who are unhappy with the community or the direction of nix should leave and start their own thing. They'll discover that building something is actually a great deal harder than it looks from the outside.

joepie91_ 2y ago
I imagine that the people who are unhappy about things are well aware of that, given that they generally are the people who have built NixOS to the point where it is now... It sure is remarkable how many people seem to be assuming that the people complaining must just be some outsiders with no involvement in the project. It's maybe worth asking yourself where that assumption comes from.
- gizmo 2y ago
  The letter is authored by "anonymous contributors", actually. This suggests the authors are minor contributors at the periphery of the project.
  - joepie91_ 2y ago
    It does not. And not only is this particular letter signed by many active contributors, the issues far predate this one letter (with this one demand), and many well-known contributors have been involved in speaking out against the current situation. You're not going to understand complex governance issues and their history from a read of a single article or letter. Consequently, you probably should refrain from drawing conclusions that way.
    - gizmo 2y ago
      The letter is an unhinged diatribe written by anonymous authors and should be disregarded on that basis.

zer00eyz 2y ago

NO one wants to admit that the tyranny of leadership is probably a good thing for a projects success. DDH, Linus, Poettering, Im sure someone is offended by hearing one of these names, but look at the status and reputation of their projects. Now go look at Wayland, or Rust who lack these guiding voices... Note that if you did in deep on these projects your likely going to need some popcorn to go with the soap opera levels of drama. Nix is going to be interesting to watch in the coming months.

ParetoOptimal 2y ago
> NO one wants to admit that the tyranny of leadership is probably a good thing for a projects success. I don't disagree, but it needs to be communicated upfront and transparent without some guise of it being anything else so that potential contributors can decide if it's right for them from the outset.
- busterarm 2y ago
  The very people decrying the lack of leadership transparency on the moderation team do their work behind closed doors, don't operate with transparency or consistency and disallow all meta discussion of their moderation work. Oh and ban anyone that openly disagrees with their values.
  - ParetoOptimal 2y ago
    > The very people decrying the lack of leadership transparency on the moderation team do their work behind closed doors, don't operate with transparency or consistency and disallow all meta discussion of their moderation work. This just isn't true. See "Transparency about jonringers suspension"[0] and also notice it's a suspension and not a ban. Note that Jon's post to reddit titled it a "ban". Which side seems to be trying to stir things up here? Also, before that discourse post there has always been a public moderation log here: https://github.com/NixOS/moderation/commit/c0f7744701cba40f05fa7ca62f0d143d7231332a https://github.com/NixOS/moderation/commit/c0f7744701cba40f0... 0: https://discourse.nixos.org/t/why-was-jon-ringer-banned-from-github/44114/23 https://discourse.nixos.org/t/why-was-jon-ringer-banned-from...

otabdeveloper4 2y ago

> ...are going to be interpreted as a bunch of left-wing people taking over the project Yeah, it's a bunch of left-wing malcontents trying to take over a project. Anyways, Nix is very much decentralized as far as open-source projects go.

ParetoOptimal 2y ago
> Yeah, it's a bunch of left-wing malcontents trying to take over a project. Or a bunch of people who were told they have a voice, put in time/work under that assumption, then when it came time for their voice to count were just ignored. But I bet life sure is easy when you can just label people something nasty and dismiss their worthless opinions outright.
- fireflash38 2y ago
  Is it a technical thing they are being ignored about or are they trying to exclude people?

cosmic_quanta 2y ago

> Anduril, a military contractor that uses NixOS, has repeatedly attempted to become a sponsor of NixCon, which did not go over well with the community Something similar happened in the Haskell community, where some people called for Anduril job postings to be removed. Nix is a software project, not a social movement. The goals of Nix are entirely separate from how the software is used. I really like Coinbase's statement that is is mission focused (https://www.coinbase.com/en-ca/blog/coinbase-is-a-mission-focused-company https://www.coinbase.com/en-ca/blog/coinbase-is-a-mission-fo...). Anything that isn't directly related to its mission is out-of-scope. I wish the same was true about software projects like Nix. If you care about the way your software is used, then by all means, say it in the license! Of course, such software won't get used much.

dilyevsky 2y ago
It’s doubly funny with haskell considering the biggest haskell shop i am aware of has a lot of defense contracts
ParetoOptimal 2y ago
> Nix is a software project, not a social movement. Upholding the status quo is a social (and political) movement, it's just the most popular and accepted one.
- zer00eyz 2y ago
  By that rational: Do you eat food, drink coffee, chocolate. Do you avail yourself of modern pharmacology. Everything you do upholds a status quo of human suffering. You posting on HN is a political statement, from a place of privilege, by that rational. It's a software project, dont make it political and it will be successful.
  - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
    Yet you participate in society. Curious.

freedomben 2y ago

This is a meta comment, but the (apparent) style of using a different color (red) to indicate direct quotes is interesting. At first I found it confusing and a little distracting, but on the second pass where my goal was to cleanly separate the author's opinion from the sources, it was extremely helpful.

ParetoOptimal 2y ago
I agree. I also found this both interesting and strange at first, but ultimately very helpful.
pantsforbirds 2y ago
I wonder if the inspiration for this comes from Bibles? It's a common practice to have direct quotes from Jesus in red.
- freedomben 2y ago
  I had the same thought! I dismissed it though as perhaps coincidence because anyone used to reading a "red text" bible may find it offensive or at least distasteful to equate other people's words with Jesus. I could very well be overthinking that though and/or be projecting my own religious upbringing (where blasphemy and sacrilegiosity are very sensitive and highly frowned upon. Even saying "he" instead of "He" is looked at as skirting the line).
  - pantsforbirds 2y ago
    It is a very practical way to show someone is being quoted though.
- indrora 2y ago
  Something like that. It's specifically for quotations that come from other sources and are presented verbatim; In the LWN UI settings: "These preferences affect how text that is quoted from other sources (press articles or whatever) in LWN news articles is rendered in your browser."

jdoss 2y ago

The reaction to Anduril sponsoring Nix is very similar to some people's reaction at Kubecon 2018 where the U.S. Air Force gave a talk about how they are using k8s to deploy software on F-16s. https://thenewstack.io/how-the-u-s-air-force-deployed-kubernetes-and-istio-on-an-f-16-in-45-days/ https://thenewstack.io/how-the-u-s-air-force-deployed-kubern...

thuuuomas 2y ago

Culture war grandstanding drowning out the much more interesting discussion around Determinate System’s pledge to support the long-debated Nix Flakes officially. Nix Flakes looking like the real source of the schism in the Nix community.

ParetoOptimal 2y ago
> Nix Flakes looking like the real source of the schism in the Nix community. No. In the talks about the fork because of the real issue of MIC sponsorship there was disagreement about whether flakes should be the default among those against MIC sponsorship. They are both issues, but the most pressing one causing large contributors to leave is the MIC sponsorship issue. The flakes/no-flakes issue existed before and wasn't causing large contributors to leave.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
tempaccount420 2y ago
Flakes should be either stabilized, reworked or rejected already. They have been unstable for far too long, the damage they have caused the ecosystem is huge...

tripdout 2y ago

I really don't see the problem with accepting sponsorship money from Anduril. Rejecting it just results in less improvements and exposure for Nix. They're going to continue to use Nix either way, and in the same way that the community can fork Nix because they're unhappy with the sponsorship, so can Anduril - and their fork might just be private. Defence companies and all sorts of other companies that people might disagree with heavily use open source projects.

binary132 2y ago

Witch hunt detected. Turning care knob straight to zero. Maybe I’ll tune back in if there’s a change in the wind.

stonewall 2y ago

Seems like this is becoming the terminal phase of the FOSS lifecycle for many projects. I wonder what makes some long-lived communities immune to this behavior...OpenBSD comes to mind.

jijijijij 2y ago
https://www.computerworld.com/article/1338390/darpa-pulls-funding-for-openbsd-leader-says.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/1338390/darpa-pulls-fu...
karma_pharmer 2y ago
Github culture is the infection vector. That's why OpenBSD is unaffected. Hygiene, folks. Also could be the fact that the entire reason OpenBSD exists is that De Raadt got cancelled out of NetBSD: http://mail-index.netbsd.org/netbsd-users/1994/12/23/0000.html http://mail-index.netbsd.org/netbsd-users/1994/12/23/0000.ht...

eduction 2y ago

> In short, Dolstra is acting as "the effective Benevolent Dictator for Life (BDFL)" of the project, even though the NixOS Foundation's charter doesn't grant anyone that authority. This is silly - authority in a software community doesn’t come from a nonprofit charter. Being founder is also no guarantee of authority, but it is more relevant because it’s rooted in actions and outcomes. The more I observe from the sidelines of open source the less attention I pay to these sorts of disputes. In the end they are all adjudicated by delivering useful software and updates quickly to end users. Whoever does that better “wins.” Sometimes this is the founder of the project and sometimes not. In general I think it’s a mistake to think anyone cares all the much about anything beyond the license, capabilities of the software, and how quickly the community/maintainers fix bugs. They may say they do but people who are taking software for free are in no position to dictate much and at the end of the day they know and accept it (especially something like who sponsors a conference, who is the keynote speaker (Rails incident) etc)

saulrh 2y ago
The letter's entire criticism is that Dolstra is clinging to that position through an extended, conflict-of-interest-ridden campaign of toxic behavior and that this toxic behavior is preventing Nix from "delivering useful software and updates quickly to end users."
- eduction 2y ago
  Right and if that’s all true he will ignore them and they will eventually fork and bury him. But personally I try to ignore letters like this especially if I’m not personally in the community (but even then sometimes) because words are cheap.

steve1977 2y ago

People seem to forget that a lot if not most of IT has some form of military background/funding behind it. Be it the first computers, the Internet, RISC CPUs, BSD UNIX and much much more. You’re free not to like this fact of course, but then using the technologies anyway is a bit of a double standard.

myaccountonhn 2y ago
I think it’s different to actively endorse something vs having it be used for something. If you’re working in a community producing axes and you’re later seeing the organization advertising them for murder instead of cutting down trees, you might understandably not wanna be part of it anymore or try to change the organization.
- steve1977 2y ago
  But a lot of the technologies were explicitly designed with military use in mind. It’s not like some unintended and unplanned side effect. So a better analogy would be swords that can also be used to cut fruit instead of killing maybe.
  - myaccountonhn 2y ago
    But we’re in a thread about leadership crisis of nix here. Was nix designed explicitly for military in mind?
    - steve1977 2y ago
      I don't know. The designer and founder of nix at least does not seem to explicitly exclude military use. From what I understand, this is actually the root cause of the conflict here; the founder of the project seems to be fine with military use, some other members of the community are not.
dwb 2y ago
Are you really expecting people critical of the US military to not use computers, else be keeping a "double standard"?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

natsucks 2y ago

[flagged]

jonringer117 2y ago

For those that are curious about an alternative perspective on this matter, I detailed much of my personal views in my reddit suspension post. I don't have much context on the EU NixCon 2023 events, but I've been actively involved with the project for 2019, 2020, 2021, beginning of 2022, and late 2023. https://www.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1cd5fod/in_case_im_unable_to_return_wish_you_all_the_best/ https://www.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1cd5fod/in_case_im_u...

srid 2y ago

Related submissions: Open letter to the NixOS foundation (50 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40107370 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40107370 The dire state of NixOS's moderation culture (76 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40166912 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40166912 --- Additionally, these r/NixOS submissions may be of interest: Jon Ringer: "In case I'm unable to return, wish you all the best" (348 comments) https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1cd5fod/in_case_im_unable_to_return_wish_you_all_the_best/ https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1cd5fod/in_case_im_u... Transparency about jonringer’s suspension (153 comments) https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1ceeg8h/transparency_about_jonringers_suspension/ https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1ceeg8h/transparency... Thoughts on Jon Ringer's temporary suspension (71 comments) https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1ceiz36/thoughts_on_jon_ringers_temporary_suspension/ https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1ceiz36/thoughts_on_... Moderation no-go zones (55 comments; ongoing) https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1cfv8vo/moderation_nogo_zones/ https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1cfv8vo/moderation_n... --- Finally, the RFC to improve the situation: https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/175 https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/175