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MadRadar attack causes automotive radar to 'hallucinate'
- blibble 3y agogiven car companies seem incapable of securing something as basic as a car key how long until smart 12 year olds can remotely hijack major car brands on a freeway with a laptop and a small python script?
- FractalParadigm 3y agoRealistically, it's been possible on and off for quite some time. Chrysler's UConnect system received quite a bit of flak some years back over just how easy it was to take over full control of a vehicle[0]; not just locking/unlocking doors, but full control over the climate system and wipers, all the way up to starting and stopping the engine or changing gear in the transmission. [0]: https://jalopnik.com/chryslers-uconnect-vulnerable-to-remote-hacking-but-do-1719269327 https://jalopnik.com/chryslers-uconnect-vulnerable-to-remote...
- rightbyte 3y agoThat is why steer by wire steering is terrifying. If your car turn full left due to some hack or bug at some speed trigger you are dead. And the industry push it as cost cutting.
- ck2 3y agoDoes the trick with tape on the ground causing Teslas to steer into walls still work or did they patch that for all the ignorant alpha testers out there?
- tetromino_ 3y agoDid you know that fully analogue human-piloted cars are vulnerable? Researchers have recently described the "MadBrick attack": a malicious attacker can remotely disable a human-piloted car or cause it to veer off road by dropping a brick through the windshield from an overpass. Clearly, car manufacturers need to promptly address this class of vulnerabilities.
- snapplebobapple 3y agoThats a little different in that the car wont override what ypu tell it to do from the brick attck but it potentially will for thw above attck.
- fipar 3y agoThis has been addressed already, though not by manufacturers. If you live (or drive through) an area where brick attacks are known to happen, you just put protective films on the windshield. It usually still ends up damaged but you can continue to drive just fine (I know because I have).
- rightbyte 3y agoReally? It helps against a brick?
- short_sells_poo 3y agoI imagine the window still shatters but keeps together instead of spraying glass everywhere. Similarly to glass with an embedded wire mesh.
- fipar 3y agoExactly this. In fact, it’s the same protection I have now at home in a couple of roof windows. Not because I expect attacks, but because I’ve got one more floor above and I want some safety in case something heavy and loose falls down during a storm. The glass is gone anyways, but the goal is never to save the glass (that’s impossible, I guess) but to dramatically minimize the risk of personal injury.
- fipar 3y agoAbsolutely, can confirm. As I said, the windshield will still break, but will still be held together by the film. Now as far as keeping thieves out it is far less useful as it can be cut with a very sharp object (same things firefighters do if they need to take someone out of a car with such films). In fact, for safety, I did keep the rear glass without a film. Fortunately, I no longer need to drive though that place but when I did, it made a world of a difference.
- GlenTheMachine 3y agoSpoofing radar signals isn't exactly new, and the ability to do it on the ground (so to speak) shouldn't be surprising. The military has been doing it for decades. Also, it doesn't take nearly the sophistication of the system demo'ed here -- a chaff canister released into traffic would, I imagine, play twenty kinds of havoc on any autonomous driving system that relied on radar.
- nine_k 3y agoA large cloud of glitter would do the same for optical systems, e.g. human drivers. Shining intense light at drivers is also known to cause havoc and incidents. Now imagine a night road lit by a dancing hall light show; many human drivers would find themselves discombobulated.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- shiroiuma 3y ago>Shining intense light at drivers is also known to cause havoc and incidents. This is absolutely normal when driving on American roads at night these days.
- actionfromafar 3y agoAlso, blue-tinted, blinding LED headlights everywhere, maybe that's what you meant. The laser lights maybe aren't blue-tinted but blinding nevertheless.
- trklausss 3y agoI got a Volkswagen with front assist and adaptive cruise control. I use it mainly for long runs with little traffic, that way my foot doesn’t get cramped for staying at the same position. When crossing under some bridges, sometimes it decelerates and warns me of a collision, even if there is no one there. I have to override it by stepping on the gas pedal until I’m through. I’ve also felt it hiccup on a test strip where they were testing radars, I was guessing it was due to them using similar frequencies, but I’m not sure on that one.
- iknowstuff 3y agoExactly why Tesla switched to vision only
- smilespray 3y agoNah, that was cost.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 3y agoWhy include a (much more expensive) FSD computer in every Tesla then, if it was just a cost-saving measure and radar is actually needed for self-driving? FSD works better today with vision only than any other solution with vison+radar.
- p_l 3y agoThe computer was needed anyway to get sensor fusion and reasoning about environment around, so it's not something that was "added" or "more expensive". Also, their original solution did sensor fusion with LIDAR, but the vendor find out and blew a gasket - because the LIDAR sensors weren't designed for safety-critical operation and to my understanding became a potential liability for the maker if they continued to supply them for incorrect use knowingly.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 3y ago
- dosman33 3y agoWhat's funny is that so much effort is going into these radar systems for non-autonomous vehicular systems that can be resolved by teaching people how to correctly set their side mirrors to cover their blind spots. You eliminate your blind spots by moving your side mirrors out enough that you can't see the sides of your car without tilting your head a little. You don't need to see your own car in your side mirrors. https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15131074/how-to-adjust-your-mirrors-to-avoid-blind-spots/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15131074/how-to-adjus... After I got my most recent vehicle I discovered it has a 24GHz rear-facing radar in order to alert me to a possible car in my blind spots. It misfires all the time and alerts me to guard rails and phantoms that don't exist. I don't need it, because I now keep my side mirrors set correctly I know where cars are beside me before the radar knows. I turn it off but now I'm curious if that actually deactivates the radar emitter or just stops alerting me to hits.
- chinathrow 3y agoThis - and turning your head when changing lanes in vehicles without proper curved side mirrors save lifes too.
- kolinko 3y agoAlso, mirrors that curve near the far end. Each time I visit US I'm frustrated by the american cars having flat mirrors. The blind spots are insane. I guess it's due to some weird regulation? In EU mirrors have their last 2-4cm curved, and there's virtually no blind spot, and you don't need to adjust mirrors too precisely even.
- gray_-_wolf 3y ago> In EU Definitely not everywhere in the EU. My Yaris has flat mirrors.
- viraptor 3y ago> I don't need it, because I now keep my side mirrors set correctly I know where cars are beside me before the radar knows. It's not there to replace you looking. It's there as an extra information source in case you make a mistake when looking. Maybe you're lucky with the your car, but even with curved ends of mirrors in mine, there's still a blind spot where I would not see a bike on the passenger's side and the little extra notification is great for that. It blinks for guard rails too, but that doesn't bother me - there's extremely rarely a reason to check the mirror on the side close to the rail.
- Animats 3y agoThat's a problem with simple, cheap Doppler radars. Pulse radars are much less jammable and countermeasures against jamming are well understood. A bit of random jitter in the outgoing pulse timing prevents interference from identical systems, as well as synchronization attacks. Military radars have had this since the 1960s. It does add cost. LIDAR has the same problem and the same countermeasures. Pulsed LIDAR units should have a few microseconds of random jitter in the pulse timing, too. You can still get a collision, but not multiple consistent collisions in a row, so you know it's noise.
- superkuh 3y agoIt goes the other way too. My city has installed a large number of radar detection cross walk lights. You can tell when a car with radar goes down a street because they progressively trigger each cross walk light despite there being no people. There are certain times a year when the sun is in just the right position in the morning to cause them to stay permanently on for hours as well.
- numlock86 3y ago> People rediscover radar attack that has been known and fixed over six decades ago. Amazing. We've gone full circle now. I wonder if this is a problem of generational differences in knowledge transfer ... or rather the lack of it.
- rightbyte 3y agoWorker attrition is way too high nowadays to keep deep knowledge in niche fields I believe. Old school seniors have retired and are being replaced by nobody. You can notice this in a lot of hardware products with "noob" mistakes that the prior product generation did not have etc. Software is probably the same but the product is too opaque to see into so ot just feels crappy.
- Metacelsus 3y agoTurns out calculus was invented in 1994: https://academia.stackexchange.com/questions/9602/rediscovery-of-calculus-in-1994-what-should-have-happened-to-that-paper https://academia.stackexchange.com/questions/9602/rediscover...
- csours 3y agoPointing lasers at people's eyes causes degradation of visual acuity
- foxyv 3y agoThere are some really ingenious ways to make a self driving vehicle that won't collide with other vehicles. But they all end up just becoming a train/trolley. Steering? Rails. Anti-collision? Signals. Fuel/Charging? Overhead power lines.