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Texas A&M suspended professor accused of criticizing Lt. Gov. Patrick in lecture
- kneebonian 3y ago> Ultimately Texas A&M allowed Alonzo to keep her job after an internal investigation could not confirm any wrongdoing.
- vuldin 3y agoThe fact that they chose to suspend the professor as an initial step is still an issue.
- sonotathrowaway 3y agoCensorship doesn’t inspire chilling effects without merit less punishments, so it was very necessary.
- actionfromafar 3y agoNothing to see, move along. We will definitely not do it again to someone else with less connections.
- NovemberWhiskey 3y agoLet's see if she gets tenure, though.
- Regnore 3y agoWhat are the laws around the government punishing government employees for criticizing the government? I'm not an expert but it doesn't really seem like a first amendment issue although I think most would agree that the government shouldn't be punishing its own employees for conduct like this.
- ceejayoz 3y agoThis one'd probably hinge on whether the comment was "made pursuant to the employee's job duties". In chronological order: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickering_v._Board_of_Education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickering_v._Board_of_Educatio... establishes a "right to speak on issues of public importance" for public employees. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garcetti_v._Ceballos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garcetti_v._Ceballos limits that right when statements are "made pursuant to his position as a public employee". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demers_v._Austin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demers_v._Austin extends "First Amendment protection to professors at public universities for on-the-job speech that deals with public issues related to teaching or scholarship, whether inside or outside of the classroom", but doesn't apply everywhere as it's a Ninth Circuit decision.
- bachmeier 3y agoI'd be interested to hear how this could fall under the second classification. The professor in this case wasn't even working directly with the politician.
- ceejayoz 3y agoYou can be a public employee without being a direct report to the Governor.
- bachmeier 3y agoWell I get that, but I'm curious what would be the "government employees' work product" in this case, using the Supreme Court's chosen phrase. The case you linked is about someone doing their job in a way that his bosses thought was wrong. It just happened to involved speech. I don't see the connection to this case. To the extent that the criticism of the politician was related to that person's work duties, it's because they're paid by a public university to share opinions related to their expertise.
- ceejayoz 3y agoThe work product of a state university professor is, in part, their lectures. I think https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demers_v._Austin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demers_v._Austin has it right in this regard - that public educators have a specific First Amendment need/exception to be able to teach facts their chain of command doesn't appreciate - but it doesn't yet apply in Texas.
- vxNsr 3y ago[flagged]
- ceejayoz 3y ago> Any employee that did that might be subject to negative repercussions, first amendment notwithstanding. The government is not any employer, though. They deal with their employees under First Amendment restrictions not present in private employment.
- Ylpertnodi 3y ago>It’s pretty clear from the article what the political leanings of the author are, so it almost comes off as hypocritical and tone deaf to start banging on the first amendment drum on this issue. Could you clarify?
- aaomidi 3y agoThe government isn’t “any employer” and has a lot more strict restrictions.
- NovemberWhiskey 3y agoUh no. If you're a professor at a state school, and part of your job involves research into the effectiveness of drug policies in harm prevention, then you're not only allowed to make derogatory comments about your employer but compelled to do so if that is where your research takes you. This is not about party-political point scoring: lives are literally at stake, never mind fundamental academic freedoms.
- jldugger 3y agoI've worked in unclassified roles (not faculty). Academia likes to talk a good game about freedom but their annual appointments make it clear the money you get is at the governor's discretion. It's probably a mistake to exercise that discretion, but it's a mistake faculty are powerless to stop: "If you come at the king, you best not miss."
- freejazz 3y ago
- patmorgan23 3y agoIIRC public universities are state actors and thus have to follow certain frost amendment restrictions. Professors at state universities are state employees and you can't fire a state employee for criticizing an elected official.
- wolverine876 3y agoIn which state is that law?
- mikeyouse 3y agoAll of them. State employees have very broad 1st Amendment protections.
- ceejayoz 3y ago"you can't fire a state employee for criticizing an elected official" isn't entirely true, though. If the Governor's press secretary gets up to the podium and says "my boss is a corrupt fuckwit", they'll get fired, because of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garcetti_v._Ceballos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garcetti_v._Ceballos.
- HWR_14 3y agoIt was the government school punishing a university professor for giving a guest lecture at another school. Both university professors (via tenure) and government employees (via the first amendment) deserve special protection from their employers to speak publicly.
- bbor 3y agoThis is literally the definition of a first amendment issue, in my eyes. Should the president be able to ban anyone who works for any company that has any government contracts from making any critical statements about his administration? This isn’t some intern in the office of the politician she (seemingly lightly) criticized, this is a tenured professor. Besides, IMO tenured professors are the very front line of free speech, perhaps right behind journalists - for the system to function at all (/continue limping along), tenured professors should NEVER be afraid of criticizing the government. At all. In any way.
- dctoedt 3y ago> * this is a tenured professor.* I don't think she's tenured — her TAMU Web page says she's a clinical assistant professor. [0] [0] https://health.tamu.edu/experts/joy-alonzo.html https://health.tamu.edu/experts/joy-alonzo.html
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- thinkcontext 3y agoA federal judge in FL ruled against UFL for denying professors the ability to testify as experts in cases against the state. DeSantis of course has made attacking universities part of his anti-woke cultural jihad. TX and FL have been reading from the same authoritarian hymnal so its not surprising to see a similar situation play out. It will be interesting to see what effect these kind of antics have on quality of higher ed in these states. I must think that there would be some effect on the quality of professors that get hired. https://www.thefire.org/news/judge-university-florida-cant-enforce-conflict-interest-policy-ban-faculty-testimony https://www.thefire.org/news/judge-university-florida-cant-e...
- harshreality 3y ago> Neither UTMB nor Texas A&M would confirm what Alonzo said that prompted such a reaction, and UTMB students interviewed by the Tribune recalled a vague reference to Patrick’s office but nothing specific. Without knowing what was allegedly said, this is difficult to judge, although I would certainly be inclined to side with the professor given what's been reported so far. Professors should be given wide latitude to discuss matters of academic interest, and the opioid crisis and political decisions contributing to it certainly qualify. On the other hand, if she made a snide comment about the TX Lt. Governor without grounding it in policy, that's not good. However, professors are only human, and I don't think it would be fair or reasonable to impose disciplinary action for isolated cases. It might potentially be worthy of disciplinary action in some cases, though... IF it was that kind of comment, and IF it was more than an isolated case. Why? Because while private individuals are free to talk about anything they want, professors are supposed to be maintaining an environment of thoughtful academic discourse, and certain kinds of biased comments do not, therefore disciplinary (not legal) action might at some point be warranted. Far fetched? It's not as if it's unheard of for professors who disagree with politicians to go on fact-free political rants these days.
- joenathanone 3y ago>Without knowing what was allegedly said, this is difficult to judge. You have the opposite reaction than what should be called for, if no one could even remember what was said then there is zero chance what was said was inappropriate.
- kbenson 3y agoUltimately Texas A&M allowed Alonzo to keep her job after an internal investigation could not confirm any wrongdoing. It's really not that hard to judge at all. They found no wrongdoing, and refust to even release what the purported problematic statements were. Their refusal to do so, and how that affects how you view the situation and whether it was warranted are exactly why it's problematic to behave like this in the first place and should be condemned. Accusations should include some level of evidence. Public accusations should include some level of public evidence, otherwise what's the difference between slander or libel? If I called up your local police department and told them that harshreality is a pedophile, I wouldn't expect them to take any action other than to possibly quietly investigate if they thought it was credible, and if I supplied evidence, I'd expect them to verify that evidence before and public announcements or arrests, as I suspect you would and anyone would when accused of a heinous crime. To do otherwise is to allow the public to be swayed by innuendo rather than fact. We should not condone behavior such as this.
- pityJuke 3y agoAs Nilay Patel from the Verge put it [1] >Your regular reminder that the biggest threat to free speech is the government. > Complaining about social platforms moderating content according to their whims is just how politicians distract you from how fast they’ve all gotten sick of the First Amendment. This story is outrageous — no one will even say what this professor allegedly said that was so offensive! [1]: https://www.theverge.com/2023/7/25/23806946/your-regular-reminder-that-the-biggest-threat-to-free-speech-is-the-government https://www.theverge.com/2023/7/25/23806946/your-regular-rem...
- vxNsr 3y agoExactly which is why it’s a huge problem when the tech companies act in lock step with government officials.
- ceejayoz 3y agoIt'd be a huge First Amendment problem if tech companies weren't permitted to agree with the government.
- vxNsr 3y agoThat’s an incredibly aggressive intentional misinterpretation of what I said. In the last 3 years we had government officials directing, in very strong language, various tech companies on what was and was not allowed on their platforms. While many people might argue that tech platforms are not public squares and should be free to censor however they like, everyone should have a problem with politicians directing tech companies on what can be said on their platforms. As an addendum, I’m always curious to hear what that camp has to say about net neutrality after arguing so vigorously against its core principles. IMHO if you want to operate as a mass market platform and are pursuing a winner takes all business strategy you should be regulated as a common carrier (Uber, Facebook, Comcast, Google, Microsoft, cloudflare, etc).
- ceejayoz 3y ago
- justin66 3y agoHow weirdly fragile and vindictive do you have to be to initiate a formal complaint against a guest lecturer for making an observation about public policy you think is off-base? How lame do you have to be to even know how to do that, and to do it so fast that the lecturer heard about it when she got home?
- stevenwoo 3y agoThe first year medical school student who started things is the daughter of a GOP state official, she didn't fall far from the tree despite wanting to be a doctor.
- bozhark 3y agoHypocrisy Oath
- blantonl 3y agoThis is equivalent to the daughter basically saying "do you know who my daddy is?" Deplorable.
- stevenwoo 3y agoBoth her parents are doctors but both parents' made alot of money from for profit schools preying on veterans (NAU http://www.help.senate.gov/imo/media/for_profit_report/Contents.pdf http://www.help.senate.gov/imo/media/for_profit_report/Conte...) and that help pay for the campaigns to start her mothers political career so not a lot of self introspection being done in the family.
- wintogreen74 3y agoSo the same people who fight change they interpret as pushing "woke" culture also believe they have a right to never be exposed to criticism or negative comments against anything with which they identify?
- prh8 3y ago
- Animats 3y agoCrackdowns on free speech are increasing worldwide. Afghanistan, Russia, China, Hong Kong, Florida, Texas... Israel just reached the using fire hoses on protestors level.[1] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/25/world/middleeast/israel-judicial-vote-whats-next.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/25/world/middleeast/israel-j...
- DoneWithAllThat 3y agoOh come on, stop with the hyperbole. Two of those things are nothing even close to the others.
- kbenson 3y agoIt's entirely valid to point at different items on the same trend line, even if they may be at different points along it currently. Florida and Texas may not be hosing down protestors or throwing them in jail, but this is hardly an isolated incident and it certainly does qualify as a "crackdown on free speech" in my opinion, as do the classic extreme examples it's included with. Perhaps how uncomfortable that is should be something we consider thoughtfully rather than something we point to and immediately try to discount.
- decremental 3y ago[dead]
- ethanbond 3y agoEh, Florida pretty much falsified COVID data at the behest of the Desantis admin
- conductr 3y agoSomething about a slippery slope?
- duxup 3y agoI don’t think he’s saying the countries are equal.
- 3y ago
- breckinloggins 3y agoNot the way I would have preferred to see my Alma mater on HN, but not exactly shocked, either.
- smithcoin 3y agoFeeling slightly better than all the Northwestern alumni, but this is still pretty shameful.
- alexilliamson 3y agoGo Cats!
- jeffbee 3y agoThe only two things I've read about my alma mater recently were this, and the thing about the president being overthrown by what resembles a military coup, for the crime of trying to reestablish the school of journalism.
- mjamil 3y agoJeff, where's your interpretation of events surrounding the president's resignation based on? My understanding was that the journalism school extended a written 5-year tenure-track offer to a candidate signed by the journalism school head. The offer was then mysteriously revised (still with school head signature intact) to a 1-year non-tenure-track offer without the knowledge of the journalism school. When the candidate asked for an explanation, they were told it's because she's a Black woman that has worked at the NYT, and that the powers-that-be at A&M objected to her hiring. She then received a verbal third offer for a 3-year contract. The candidate made all info available to a local paper, kicking off a firestorm. This led to a (funny, imo) call between the president and faculty where the president claimed she did not know where the multiple offers came from and why, and who had communicated with the candidate about the black/nyt stuff. When asked - in that case - whether the first offer was still good, she demurred. The faculty clearly lost faith in her leadership at this point. She resigned the day after this meeting. The candidate wisely has chosen to work elsewhere.
- mikeyouse 3y agoIt's worth knowing more details than the headline here: 1. Professor Joy Alonzo, who's an expert in Opiod harm-reduction gave a talk where according to all accounts, she mildly critiqued the Lt. Governor and state's preferences for punitive approaches for drug control and that they are considered Federal non-reporters on Opioid stats since they don't collect the data required. 2. Dawn Buckingham, the TX Land Commissioner has a daughter who was in the audience of the talk. (presumably) The daughter texts her mom, telling her that the lecture disparaged the Lt. Gov. 3. Buckingham immediately texts the Lt. Governor that Alonzo had critiqued him - the Lt. Gov then called the Chancellor of Texas A&M where Professor Alonzo is employed. 4. Chancellor texts, literal hours after the lecture was finished, that "Joy Alonzo has been placed on administrative leave pending investigation re firing her. shud [sic] be finished by end of week." Absolutely clear cut violation of the 1st amendment. If they had any shame, everyone involved would resign.
- snvzz 3y agoEverybody but the professor. Prof. did no wrongdoing.
- ubermonkey 3y ago[flagged]
- Domenic_S 3y agoPlease save the low-quality mudslinging for Reddit.
- phone8675309 3y ago[flagged]
- treis 3y agoWhat did she say?
- 3y ago
- unethical_ban 3y agoThe constant keeping in the loop of the Lt governor (Patrick) is disturbing on several levels. One, that students and faculty would tattle on a lecturer holding an adverse opinion of a politician in efforts to punish them, and two, that the LtGov actually cares enough to stay engaged. For those not from Texas, know that Dan Patrick is one of the most despicable politicians in the country, and wields almost total power over what gets presented to the Texas legislature. As horrible as this story is, I am not surprised by his behavior.
- aschearer 3y agoFree thinking patriots cancel another marxist just as God intended.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- neilv 3y ago> And Sharp was communicating directly with the lieutenant governor’s office about the incident, promising swift action. In Texas, what entities have oversight over potential abuses of power by the Lt. Governor's office, the Texas A&M system Chancellor, and the Texas Land Commissioner? Are they credible? I'm not going to jump to conclusions, but am wondering whether this credible-looking journalism will prompt government investigation with integrity.
- vkou 3y agoTexas's attorney general has had been both state, and federally indicted for fraud for the past 8 years, and has successfully stalled the case, on the basis[1] that as long as he's a Republican politician, he can't get a fair trial. He's only been impeached for it this year. There is no oversight to be had in that kind of single-party state. If you're wondering about what the end game of that sort of thing looks like, Putin's Russia laid out a roadmap for it. [1] The actual mechanism with which he has done so is by not paying the prosecutors that were supposed to prosecute him. It's utterly insane - the criminals are literally running the courts.
- akira2501 3y agoHow does a /state/ prosecutor have the ability to interfere with the prosecutorial budgets for a /federal/ indictment?
- 0xBDB 3y agoThe FBI is investigating him but no federal charges have ever been filed. The state situation is also a bit more complicated than the grandparent suggests. There have been both jurisdictional struggles and a county government refusing to pay sizable fees for outside special prosecutors (not state prosecutors). The guy belongs in prison but is not just refusing to be prosecuted, nor does he have the ability to do so.
- neilv 3y agoHow do tech workers in Texas cities like Austin feel about being under that?
- neilv 3y agoI guess those students have been put on notice, not to voice anything critical of party officials or their public policy. > Less than two hours after the lecture ended, Patrick’s chief of staff had sent Sharp a link to Alonzo’s professional bio. > Shortly after, Sharp sent a text directly to the lieutenant governor: “Joy Alonzo has been placed on administrative leave pending investigation re firing her. shud [sic] be finished by end of week.” > [...] > At 4:22 p.m., as Alonzo was learning that a controversy was brewing, a course coordinator sent an email to the entire class distancing UTMB from comments Alonzo allegedly made about Patrick. The subject line read, “STATEMENT OF FORMAL CENSURE.” > “The statements made by the guest lecturer do not represent the opinion or position of the University of Texas Medical Branch, nor are they considered as core curriculum content for this course,” the email said. > “UTMB does not support or condone these comments. We take these matters very seriously and wish to express our disapproval of the comment and apologize for harm it may have caused for members of our community,” the email continued. “We hereby issue a formal censure of these statements and will take steps to ensure that such behavior does not happen in the future.”
- javier_e06 3y agoI wonder if the criticism is along the lines of the attitude around the US-Mexico border is crackdown on the distribution and availability of the narcan (naxalone). https://abc13.com/texas-am-suspends-professor-joy-alonzo-suspended-with-pay-criticizing-dan-patrick-what-happened/13546665/ https://abc13.com/texas-am-suspends-professor-joy-alonzo-sus... I heard that in Mexico right wing politicians are blocking the import of naxalone with the attitude that people that OD on the streets should not be helped. Just wondering...
- berkle4455 3y agoThe liberal flight from California to Texas are going to have a rude fucking wakeup call eventually.
- phone8675309 3y agoI can't wait for the People's Republic of Austin to secede from Texas.
- bloaf 3y agoI was struck by the final passage in the article: >“While it is important to preserve and defend academic freedom and as such be able to discuss and present to students and the public the results of research observations and strategies, you should be mindful of how you present your views,” Udeani [the pharmacy school Dean] said. Notably, Texas has banned diversity and inclusion programs and trainings. I think it is a valid line of questioning to ask whether or not the Dean's advice here constitutes an inclusivity mandate that would be illegal under Texas law.
- rsynnott 3y ago> The Texas A&M University professor had just returned home from giving a routine lecture on the opioid crisis at the University of Texas Medical Branch in March when she learned a student had accused her of disparaging Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick during the talk. Very Soviet. Is this a weird Texas thing, or is it normal for American universities? It's virtually impossible to imagine here; universities are more or less ground zero for criticising the government.
- phone8675309 3y agoLt Gov Dan Patrick and Gov Greg Abbot are both thin skinned fascists who are leading their state into a new dark age. Come and get me, Texas Rangers.
- kstrauser 3y agoIt's a weird Texas thing. In general, American universities don't bat an eye at anyone criticizing established organizations.
- rawgabbit 3y agoTexas A&M is the very conservative public university of Texas. It started as a male military academy with the purpose of graduates entering the US military. The Aggies favorite son is Earl Rudder who commanded troops during the invasion of Normandy. UT Austin is the liberal public university in TX. It was famous for its hippies back in the 60s.
- rsynnott 3y agoSo, my mental model of American conservatism (I'm not American) was always that they were _relatively_ thick-skinned as right-wingers go; George W took a fair bit of public criticism, say, without seeming to get particularly upset about it. Trump didn't react well to criticism, obviously, but he's kind of a baby, and a bit of a special case; extremely privileged and not a career politician. I've got to say I'm kind of surprised that the rank and file are so sensitive; I kind of thought this was largely _gone_ in western democracy. Feels very, very old-fashioned (or, as mentioned, Soviet). I sometimes wonder if I'm missing something fundamental about how Americans think. This behaviour would be interpreted (beyond being anti-democratic, but parts of the right wing won't necessarily care about that) as showing extreme weakness here. Like, to the extent that a politician wouldn't do it, even if they _could_, because would be very politically damaging; "my opponent is a weird baby" is a stupid talking point to hand to your opponent.
- padseeker 3y agoSpoiler alert - The free speech crowd never actually cared about free speech.