13 ms·

Ubuntu stops shipping Flatpak by default

409 points by chr15p 3y ago

dusted 3y ago
Great, now stop shipping snaps.
- Taniwha 3y ago
  yeah lost a day this week to bloody snaps
  - trompetenaccoun 3y ago
    Is there a single user who likes snaps?
    - circuit10 3y ago
      They’re better than Flatpak for CLI applications I guess since Flatpak doesn’t aim to support those Is there another option for that than Snap, or Docker which is a bit too complicated to set up? (that’s not rhetorical, I would like to know if there is)
      - _joel 3y ago
        Another option https://appimage.org/ https://appimage.org/
        dusted 3y ago
        Those are actually kind of nice.
    - k_bx 3y ago
      I've used it to install Nextcloud Hub and it was nice actually.
    - rickydroll 3y ago
      me. They provide solutions that work. There have been some teething pains but for the most part nonissues. It's at the point where I'm considering learning how to build snaps for private products I deliver. I think the argument over flat pack versus snaps may expressed in technological terms but in reality, it's just your damn ego. Let it go, it's really not worth arguing over. Use what solves your work problem and then go have a life away from computers.
      - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
        > it's just your damn ego. It's really not. First, those technical problems are real problems that will create user-visible problems, ex. forced updates. Second, it has problems that are already user-facing, ex. startup times.
        rickydroll 3y ago
        you are only proving my point. seriously, most users don't notice and don't care. heck, I know enough to notice and I still don't care because it does not interfere with my ability to get my job done. any mentioned technical problems are implementation issues, not design. they will be solved in 2ish years or less
    - ridgered4 3y ago
      Forced auto updates and a closed store mean I won't even try to like snaps. Those are the top two reasons I moved off Windows.
    - monsieurgaufre 3y ago
      While i don't go out of my way to use them, i've never, ever encountered any of the problems stated by others. And I'm not being selective with my devices at all (Asus laptops, hp minipc). I really wonder how i can have such a different experience to theirs apart from really esoteric parts/apps. Not saying it's not happening. While i'd prefer just using apt, they let me work without being a pain so i don't really care.
    - michaelhoffman 3y ago
      I started using a snap to run Emacs 28 on my Ubuntu 22.04.2 LTS system. The snap is maintained by a Canonical employee, and I like it better than any of the other ways I have used to get more bleeding-edge versions of software in the past, such as using a random Personal Package Archive (PPA) or building from source myself. Would I rather have the deb package be up-to-date? Sure. But when I've used distributions that try to stick closer to the bleeding edge everywhere, I've had bad experiences with stuff breaking. This lets me keep a stable, well-tested distribution for everything except for the one package I want to be newer. I can't compare to Flatpak or AppImage because I've never used them.
londons_explore 3y ago
Can we go back to just shipping apt packages? They worked fine, and I don't feel like having multiple types of containers and update methods and mounted image file systems really made anyone's life better.
- bayesian_horse 3y ago
  What you are really saying is you want all software developers to publish Debian packages (no such thing as "apt" packages) compatible with your particular Debian distribution, even though they might be using a different Debian based distribution, a completely different altogether, maybe even a different architecture, even though that compatibility isn't their primary concern.
  - creshal 3y ago
    The whole point of a distribution is that this job is done by the distributors, not the authors.
    - alkonaut 3y ago
      Is there a distribution (or whatever one would call it - a Linux) where the aim is to not be managing the whole end-user system of OS+Apps, but just the OS. E.g. similar to Windows, or Android?
      - drbig 3y ago
        There are operating systems - like FreeBSD - which have a very strong and clear distinction between the Operating System base and third-party software.
      - dikei 3y ago
        For server there's Flatcar Container Linux, which only provide just enough to run containers. Everything else is provided by the container packager.
      - qbasic_forever 3y ago
Jackevansevo 3y ago
Reminder that if you don't like snaps and prefer flatpaks, it's pretty easy to migrate using: https://github.com/popey/unsnap https://github.com/popey/unsnap
- ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
  I like the project status > Let's say it's "Pre-alpha", as in "It kinda works on my computer".
NayamAmarshe 3y ago
Reminder that ZorinOS exists. It's Ubuntu, but better: https://zorin.com/os https://zorin.com/os
- vesinisa 3y ago
  I would've appreciated some background how this differs from the next Linux distro, and what's the relation to Ubuntu removing Flatpak?
  - notRobot 3y ago
    Beautiful UI and themes, based on Ubuntu, built-in support for Windows software through PlayOnLinux and Wine, software store supports apt, snap and flatpak, you can use whichever method you like. https://help.zorin.com/docs/apps-games/install-apps/ https://help.zorin.com/docs/apps-games/install-apps/
    - YawningAngel 3y ago
      I'm not sure which major distro doesn't have "built-in support for Windows software through PlayOnLinux and Wine"
      - notRobot 3y ago
        The ones that don't come with Wine and PlayOnLinux preinstalled?
  - NayamAmarshe 3y ago
    Some links I'd suggest reading: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2022/01/17/what-linux-distros-and-foss-projects-can-learn-from-zorin-os/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2022/01/17/what-... https://www.techrepublic.com/article/zorinos-16-is-exactly-what-a-linux-desktop-distribution-should-be/ https://www.techrepublic.com/article/zorinos-16-is-exactly-w... https://www.zdnet.com/article/zorin-os-puts-on-a-master-class-for-what-a-desktop-operating-system-should-be/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/zorin-os-puts-on-a-master-clas... Copy-pasting my comment from reddit: - Interface is amazing. Possibly the most polished and modern UI in any distro. - Nvidia drivers provided by default. - Biggest App store library in any Ubuntu-based distro. Comes with Ubuntu + Zorin + Flatpak + Snap repositories. - Made for newbies and pros alike. - Wine pre-installed, so you can even use some Windows programs without doing any extra configuration. - Has great hardware compatibility and is always on latest LTS kernel. - Great performance. - Extremely stable because it's based on Ubuntu. - Works great for gaming. - Has extra proprietary drivers pre-installed for example, Intel WiFi chipsets. - Multiple layouts, Windows like shortcuts. - Good amount of customization. - Since it's based on Ubuntu, most articles and tutorials available online also will apply to ZorinOS. - Did I mention that the UI is very polished? ZorinOS is a no-brainer choice if you want a 'Just Works™' system that also looks highly polished. Ubuntu's focus is not the user, but corporate. Just compare their home pages and you'll know what I'm talking about. It's ubuntu but better, why would you use Ubuntu ;)
calcifer 3y ago
Article is paywalled.
- blowski 3y ago
  There's no workaround as far as I know. This MSN (!) article is about the same thing, albeit it's almost certainly a lower quality article. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/ubuntu-flavors-to-stop-supporting-flatpak-heres-how-to-enable-it/ar-AA17Ynvq https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/ubuntu-flavors-to-...
- jwilk 3y ago
  https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/927262/6adb2350e2b0d2ce/ https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/927262/6adb2350e2b0d2ce/
petepete 3y ago
Mir, Unity, now Snap. Ubuntu has a track record of wanting to go it alone. But, I'm all for competition, long may it continue. The only real negative here is that some apps will only release Snaps, others will only release Flatpaks and people will end up having to just revert to copr/AUR like before. Choosing a distro is basically choosing a DE and package manager these days anyway - a single unified packaging format that works everywhere is more frustrating than an alternative DE or windowing system.
- bibanez 3y ago
  I've had some success with Nix. Still I would only generally recommend it for development (even though I use NixOs)
  - sandwell 3y ago
    Also a Nix/NixOS user/contributer. I feel like Nix+nixpkgs could become the universal packaging solution adapted to build deb, rpm, etc packages. Through nix-env it even already has the idea (albeit discouraged) of imperative package management like apt. Having spent a while with NixOS, running containers for user applications seems like using a cannon to kill a fly. The 'simple' alternative is to drop FHS altogether - which containerization is kind of doing in a roundabout way by isolating the app filesystem from system fhs. As for it being for developers only... I get that perspective. Debian/Ubuntu packaging is also hard, AUR packaging has its quirks. A lot of this is hidden behind the package manager, wheras with NixOS it is more obvious. The killer idea for NixOS would be to make package management for Joe Q Public as easy to use as apt while. Tools like MyNixOS[1] are emerging which might bridge that gap. [1] https://mynixos.com https://mynixos.com
    - TobTobXX 3y ago
      The one advantage Flatpak provides for me over Nix is containerisation. Not the bullet-proof kind, which allows you to run malware, but of the "reasonable" kind, which stops apps from storing to any directory they like just like that (only chroot level of "security"/isolation would be fine for me). When there's a package manager / runtime that does both then I'm extremely interested.
quaintdev 3y ago
Moved to Fedora for the mess around snaps and I'm not going to look back.
- qbasic_forever 3y ago
  I've been setting up the new Fedora 38 sway spin (Wayland + sway wm out of the box) and am really impressed. I've been an Ubuntu derivative user for a long time but Fedora is great so far.
  - jadbox 3y ago
    I've switched to Fedora KDE spin, and I've been loving it. KDE recently got native window tiling support which has been nice. It's not nearly as powerful at tiling as Sway, but it fits the bill for my use.
- brobinson 3y ago
  Fedora + flatpak + everything transparently running in bubblewrap automatically has been a very nice experience. Snaps drove me off Ubuntu, and I'm glad I landed on Fedora.
  - npteljes 3y ago
    Fedora drove me off twice now, because I had bad luck both times with release updates. I haven't even configured the system too much, but there were several things broken after the release upgrate, the most notable being the file manager crashing while opening. Since Fedora bumps its version twice a year, with my experience, you don't get much time to run a smooth system.
    - bravetraveler 3y ago
      Fedora supports two releases at a time, that stability is in N-1 I try to give the new release about a month to bake
      - 3y ago
ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
They could do with improving the behaviour of snaps first before removing alternatives. The updates are currently awkward as they don't seem to work if the application is running which can be a problem with something like Firefox which I have running for days at a time. It's also annoying that it's gone from using simple "apt" commands to keep the machine up-to-date, to also needing a "snap refresh". I choose to use Ubuntu at work for a bunch of stuff, but snaps are making me consider whether it's worth migrating over to Debian instead.
- rlpb 3y ago
  > The updates are currently awkward as they don't seem to work if the application is running The fix for this is currently being tested: https://bugs.launchpad.net/snapd/+bug/1980271 https://bugs.launchpad.net/snapd/+bug/1980271 > before removing alternatives Alternatives remain available for install. They weren't removed.
  - snovv_crash 3y ago
    apt install firefox still works?
    - noobermin 3y ago
      I think it does, why wouldn't it work? That's installing it via aptitude, not flatpak.
      - Maakuth 3y ago
        It does not work as one would expect. Instead of installing Firefox itself, it installs some sort of a script that installs Firefox from snap.
      - dagw 3y ago
        It hasn't 'worked' since Ubuntu 21.10. Ubuntu overrides your apt install and installs the snap version instead for programs that have snaps.
ymgch 3y ago
What difference does it make?
fyloraspit 3y ago
Flatpaks are better than snaps IMO, but both are only good for certain apps due to the largely half baked implementations.
wazoox 3y ago
You could use Pop_OS, which is an Ubuntu derivative with flatpak instead of snap.
rvz 3y ago
The Linux desktop stack fragmentation continues.
- nicolaslem 3y ago
  That is just Ubuntu doing Ubuntu things. Like most of their other endeavors, like Upstart or Unity, they will eventually get bored with snap and adopt the most common tool instead.
  - rvz 3y ago
    My point still stands.
  - sofixa 3y ago
    Just to be clear, Canonical are often the first ones with a solution to a problem (Unity, Mir, Upstart, Snap, LXD predate alternatives trying to solve the same problems existing in existing software), they just usually use the ensuing "war" for adoption due to varying degrees of bad strategy, Red Hat being more popular, poor technical choices or just bad luck.
    - the_why_of_y 3y ago
      Often? Only in case of Upstart and LXD (I'm not familiar with the latter's history). Here's Mark Shuttleworth in 2010: The next major transition for Unity will be to deliver it on Wayland, the OpenGL-based display management system. We came to the conclusion that any such effort would only create a hard split in the world which wasn’t worth the cost of having done it. There are issues with Wayland, but they seem to be solvable, we’d rather be part of solving them than chasing a better alternative. So Wayland it is. https://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/551 https://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/551 Then in 2013, Unity 8 was released with Mir. Snap was largely developed in parallel with FlatPak (called xdg-app initially). There was a talk about the plans at GUADEC 2013: https://www.superlectures.com/guadec2013/sandboxed-applications-for-gnome https://www.superlectures.com/guadec2013/sandboxed-applicati...
georgyo 3y ago
What I really want is for Nix or something like Nix to become standard. We can very easily mimic flatpak and snap by wrapping a nix closure in bwrap. You can have the choice to sandbox it or not with Nix. And you can easily compose it with other software.
jacquesm 3y ago
As long as they stop shipping snaps by default as well and go back to stuff that 'just worked' instead of 'stuff that works in interesting and novel ways'.
mg 3y ago
I wish there was a solution like flatpak or snap that does make things simpler, not more complex. To begin with: It would be nice if the data of the containerized applications were stored in one place and one place only. Each application should simply be a single directory in /snaps/ or something. At first I thought snap would be like that. But no. When I did some tests, the data of a snap seems to be splattered across various places on the file system.
- jovial_cavalier 3y ago
  https://nixos.org/guides/nix-pills/ https://nixos.org/guides/nix-pills/
- killerstorm 3y ago
  Well if the app works with documents I'd like to have them in ~/Documents, not in /snaps/
  - Izkata 3y ago
    I think they're referring to this: /usr/share/bash-completion/completions/snap /usr/bin/snap /home/izkata/snap /var/snap /snap
- preisschild 3y ago
  Flatpak does this. It stores it in `~/.var/app/`
daenney 3y ago
It speaks volumes to the success of Snap that they’re now moving to ensure Flatpak isn’t part of the default desktop experience. The only outcome this leads to is monetisation attempts through their store and other OS integrations to try and turn free users into a source of revenue. If you’re using Ubuntu for desktop I’d urge you to start exploring alternatives.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
muyuu 3y ago
I wonder if these developments won't eventually result on a split, when at some point Ubuntu would rather not keep up with Debian packages, or talk things through upstream. Perhaps when there are some fundamental differences of direction at the packaging level.
corobo 3y ago
Today VLC didn't start. No errors, no reason. Just didn't start. Turns out snapd.apparmor, whatever that is, wasn't running. (I ran `vlc` on the cli to figure it out) I love snaps, they're so convenient for the end user..
_joel 3y ago
It was expected, they're doing a semi walled garden with this snaps stuff it seems. I jumped ship back to regular Debian after the snapd stuff was foisted on users. Not looked back since.
wilonth 3y ago
Wow they're still pushing snaps, the project with some the worst engineering I've ever seen. - Extremely slow at doing anything, even the most basic commands. - Ridiculous auto-update mechanism (you can't even disable it wtf). - Random, nonsense limitations (why can't I open dot files and dot directories???). So terrible that for most apps that I installed with snaps I end up installing the deb version later on. What an abomination, it is a devil that's hurting the Linux desktop everyday.
- _0ffh 3y ago
  Yup, I ditched Ubuntu for good when they started with this snap nonsense.
- thangalin 3y ago
  And: - Violates XDG Base Directory Specification https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/snapd/+bug/1575053 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/snapd/+bug/1575053
- CalRobert 3y ago
  Snaps are getting me off Desktop Ubuntu after 12 years of happily using it.
  - Gracana 3y ago
    Same here. I was a happy Ubuntu desktop user for over a decade. Now I’m a happy Arch user.
    - noloblo 3y ago
      Same here off Ubuntu and onto centos/fedora rpm dnf world
      - 2b3a51 3y ago
        Glad you have something sorted out. Just interested: why not Debian? i.e. still deb based distro? I'm guessing the poster above you wants recent package versions as they went to Arch.
davidthewatson 3y ago
Yep. The notion that they're listening to anyone, anywhere is marketecture at best. I was outspoken in my interview about snaps. Of course this is the path to success in a monoculture.
andrewclunn 3y ago
In 5 years I predict an arch based SteamOS derivative will be the most common desktop linux for personal users. It will have the backing of solid engineering form a company that couldn't care less about being opinionated regarding the desktop user space.
jklinger410 3y ago
I'm not sure if Ubuntu realizes that the entire Linux ecosystem is moving away from them because of this flatpak vs snap situation. I'm sure their enterprise side is fine, but their consumer side is disappearing rapidly.
- remram 3y ago
  I don't think the Linux ecosystem likes Flatpak that much more than Snap. They are both pretty terrible.
  - jklinger410 3y ago
    People love flatpak and hate snap, actually.
    - bravetraveler 3y ago
      Indeed! The temperature generally favors Flatpak, no doubt. Personally... I tolerate it. It's useful for things I can't manage otherwise. Though I'll admit I'm in an incredibly small niche -- I maintain RPMs on COPR for fun... and at work. I part with an anecdote! We weren't too careful on some Ubuntu systems and ended up with critical networking services in Snap. The saving grace was: these systems are completely offline, so it couldn't sneak in updates. Note: this usually shouldn't be a big worry, but we have some debt
    - remram 3y ago
      Over AppImage or APT, really? Do people ever go "great, it's not in my distro but there's a FlatPak available, just as good"? Not saying you're wrong, but this is surprising to me, and not my own reaction as a full-time Linux user.
      - jklinger410 3y ago
        I'm saying flatpak over snap, that's all.
deleted 3y ago
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FpUser 3y ago
I think it should remove both - Flatpack and Snap. Stick to apt, improve it if you wish. ">This adds fuel to the fire that Canonical is doing this largely to further its own interests." What a surprise, companies (excluding rare exceptions) are there to make money, not to give it out. Interests of the customers are taken into account only as far as it helps to increas income and satisfy legal obligations.
0xbadc0de5 3y ago
Can't stand Snap, Flatpak and AppImage. They're the Nodejs of the software distribution world - a horrendously inefficient way to distribute software. DEBs and RPMs via APT and DNF are far better, imho.
Havoc 3y ago
Are Ubuntu devs just not reading the room?
- Avamander 3y ago
  Oh they are, but they're intentionally ignoring the feedback. Instead of listening to hundreds of users (a ridiculously high amount for a bug report) they've said (paraphrasing) that they have "many more users to cater to".
- friend_and_foe 3y ago
  These organizations just demonstrate utter disdain for their users. It's not just Canonical. It's almost every company that's been around for more than a couple of decades. Microsoft, Google and Mozilla are also like this. They just don't care what their users want and they treat them like children who need to be spanked when they don't like it. I personally end all relationships I have with any organization that does this.
nunodonato 3y ago
Like many, I have had my fair share of frustrations with snaps. Already considering moving away from Ubuntu, but not sure where to go next. Is Debian a good option? I use Linux both personally and professionally, so while I do like to tinker with new stuff, I also need some stability. I've used rolling-release distros in the past and its something I'd like to try again. Maybe Manjaro?
- shortrounddev 3y ago
  I stopped using linux 6 years ago when i realized it had become a glorified desktop cuztomization software for me. Now I use Windows, and on the extremely rare occasions that I need Linux, I use WSL2. But for the most part I do everything on Windows with Powershell
  - nunodonato 3y ago
    I only use windows for flight simulator, everything else is extremely frustrating for me, it feels like a battle against the OS. May not be the experience of many, but for me Linux stays out of my way or, rather, lets me define what the "way" is. Wouldn't switch for anything :)
- joao_lopes 3y ago
  I've moved from Ubuntu to Fedora and it's been more stable while also being more up-to-date without rolling-release distros headaches. Strongly recommend it.
  - nunodonato 3y ago
    I gave Fedora a try some years ago (4-5?) and had a couple of issues with nvidia drivers. Whats the status these days? I also have a long history with debs, so going to rpm is a mystery for me :)
    - Daegalus 3y ago
      It's vastly better nowadays. Also with `dnf` RPMs are as easy as DEBs. And some of the commands are similar. I find dnf is even smarter and better at managing dependencies. I only ever run 2-3 commands. `dnd install` `dnf update` and `dnf remove`. Update handles the repo refresh and actually updating packages. And force refreshing repos you just add `--refresh` to the command. Otherwise it does it every few hours on its own (the refreshing of repos, not installing updates) Fedora is a breath of fresh air after decades of Ubuntu, and then Manjaro. I wouldnt go back and I have used Ubuntu since 5.04 til 22.04
_odey 3y ago
Another snap failure story: You install chromium-browser through apt Chromium gets installed through snap You go to a PWA to install locally (like M$ Teams) The desktop entry is saved with a path hardcoded to /snap/chromium/1234/... (1234 is the id) You update chromium, either intentionally or automatically, the ID changes Now you can't access your PWA anymore unless you edit the desktop entry and change the id or replace it with `current`. Such horrible user experience for no positive gain. And this is not a Linux problem, but an Ubuntu problem. Yet there is no difference in the eyes of people because "it's their Linux that broke...". Bad user experience, bad implementation, bad decisions, and bad reputation to the wrong target, just because Canonical's Ubuntu is the "default" Linux.
tkuraku 3y ago
I like flatpaks much better than snaps. I wish they would implement an equivalent to snap's classic confinement so that apps like vscode could interact easily with the default system shell, libraries, executables etc. That feels like a big hole in flatpaks.
thomasvm 3y ago
So, for a developer, what's currently the best hassle-free desktop Linux Distribution?
- trenchgun 3y ago
  PopOS, SuSE maybe
  - zach_garwood 3y ago
    I have been really impressed with PopOS so far.
  - thomasvm 3y ago
    Never checkout PopOS before, thanks for the hint!
- friend_and_foe 3y ago
  Any of them that isn't some opinionated special feature distro besides Ubuntu. Just pick one. Arch, Debian, CentOS, Fedora, any niche little distro, and if you're opinionated about something theres devuan, alpine, void, NixOS. About the only ones I don't recommend anymore are Ubuntu and Manjaro.
- wankle 3y ago
  There's no easy answer, the Linux Desktop world is more fractured today than ever. I use and like Ubuntu, Debian 11 has had driver issues for me. I don't like RPM distros. For Ubuntu, I had to uninstall snapd and pin it to never be installed. For Firefox, I downloaded it, unpacked it and use its Help menu to update it. I don't use Chromium because Ubuntu only ships it as a snap now, I use Chrome.
- jrsj 3y ago
  EndeavourOS is the easiest way to use Arch imo, its a pretty painless installation and gives you a working desktop environment out of the box & seems to be pretty good at detecting hardware and installing drivers too.
- 3y ago
chrimbus1 3y ago
I mean, you could always just do `sudo apt install flatpak`
- jonnycomputer 3y ago
  Not installing software by default doesn't seem that big of a deal to me. I mean, first thing I do is install Emacs, which should, but doesn't, come pre-packaged with Linux. vim, sure. gedit, ok.
its-summertime 3y ago
https://fosstodon.org/@wimpy/109908489437633387 https://fosstodon.org/@wimpy/109908489437633387 @bluesabre@floss.social "[…] Ultimately, each of the current flavor leads agreed to the change. […]" @wimpy@fosstodon.org "@bluesabre Did we agree? I think we complied with the requested change. You and I both played our part in ensuring this was clearly and openly communicated." - - - https://nelsonaloysio.medium.com/installing-ubuntus-snap-on-fedora-silverblue-e82ca6fd6108 https://nelsonaloysio.medium.com/installing-ubuntus-snap-on-... > […] As Ubuntu’s snap requires access to the root file system in order to create a symlink in /snap to /var/lib/snapd/snap, successfully installing it requires a few extra steps. Besides, $HOME directory in Silverblue defaults to the more traditional path /var/home/$USER, and since snap expects it to be on its modern location /home/$USER, this must be worked around as well. […]
web3-is-a-scam 3y ago
I didn't even know Ubuntu ships flatpak preinstalled. It's not like they are removing it from repositories, if you want flatpak install it - I don't see the issue.
deleted 3y ago
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cprecioso 3y ago
It's surprising to me how Canonical keeps "losing" when positing competing technologies (e.g.: Upstart, Mir, Unity, and now Snap)
- the_why_of_y 3y ago
  There is a common theme to all of them: Canonical retains exclusive control over the development by requiring assignment of copyright of all contributions to Canonical. The obvious consequence is that anybody who doesn't get paid by Canonical and wants to work in the area decides to contribute to the community based CLA-free competitor project (systemd, Wayland, Gnome/KDE/..., Flatpak), which eventually becomes more powerful/flexible/reliable due to lots of companies and individuals contributing. (The oldest of the CLA projects was the "Bazaar" distributed version control system, almost completely forgotten now)
tacker2000 3y ago
Moved to Debian a while ago because of the mess with Unity and snaps, etc… A shame, since ubuntu got me into linux desktop back then, but in the end they keep screwing things up needlessly.
- Bellamy 3y ago
  I didn't, but my next OS won't be Ubuntu for the same reasons.
jonnycomputer 3y ago
Personally I've just not had that many problems with snaps. Just one, really, with Firefox. Firefox was crashing every-time I used the File API; removing the snap file cache fixed the problem. I don't have enough experience with Flatpak to compare.
deleted 3y ago
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ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
>Another potential concern may be that Canonical could be using this decision to force package upstreams to offer a Snap version or face not being easily available in the default Ubuntu installation. There we are.
rolenthedeep 3y ago
Canonical had a booth at CES this year, just a few rows over from mine. Every time I walked by it was totally deserted, just an employee or two looking at their phones. It was rather cathartic to see
t43562 3y ago
I see why software vendors don't want to have to target specific distributions if they can help it - it's expensive. I assume snaps and flatpaks try to mitigate that problem. I wouldn't want it to be a very common solution really because it's not that efficient and means you get updates for security when that vendor feels like it. I'm happiest with MOST software being in the distribution. Anyhow I know there are lots of ways to look down on Arch/Pacman (Artix in my case - dinit instead of systemd) but I have to say that it is simply much more enjoyable to use than Ubuntu or Fedora or even Debian IMO. Perhaps one day some terrible thing will happen to make me regret it but I just cannot imagine going back to the horrible burdens of those distros - upgrading from one version to another (especially on Fedora - groan), selinux, snap Firefox etc
sounds 3y ago
The solution used by Linux Mint seems apt: cd /etc/apt/preferences.d/ cat nosnap.pref # To prevent repository packages from triggering the installation of Snap, # this file forbids snapd from being installed by APT. # For more information: https://linuxmint-user-guide.readthedocs.io/en/latest/snap.html Package: snapd Pin: release a=* Pin-Priority: -10
pmarreck 3y ago
The more struggle Linux users have with snaps, flatpaks, appimages, and whatever their native package management system's quirks are, the more they will appreciate switching to NixOS one day, which IMHO is "the only sane Linux" as it's already definitively solved this problem. Join me in shaking my head at all this from the finish line... And honestly, I get it. I avoided it for years (it's 20 years old now!!) mostly because the nix language and words like "derivations" scared me*, until a year ago after hopping distros for quite a while (hmmm Elementary, Pop_OS, Ubuntu, Manjaro, Arch...) and after a month where I had both a bricking AND a seemingly-unsolvable interdependency build problem, I got mad and decided to take a deep breath and check out https://nixos.org/ https://nixos.org/ * here, let me immediately solve that fear: Nix interactive language tour, it's like JSON with syntax sugar and pure functions: https://nixcloud.io/tour/ https://nixcloud.io/tour/ . And a "derivation"? That's basically a "lockfile" for a particular package, if you know what that is (and you probably do). Except it existed before the concept of "lockfiles", so it got that name.
gatvol 3y ago
This feels like .deb vs .rpm all over again.
sedatk 3y ago
We should have never climbed down the Slackware tree.
bfrog 3y ago
When ubuntu shoved libreoffice in a snap, and it took forever to start and crashed randomly. That was the day I wrote off ubuntu.
tasuki 3y ago
> Ubuntu is prioritizing deb and Snap, its default packaging technologies, while no longer providing a competitor by default. This is described as an effort to provide consistency and simplicity for users. It does! It'd be even simpler and more consistent if they dropped snaps and only used debs!
timetraveller26 3y ago
Is there anything good about snaps?
fpanzer 3y ago
Too late. Snap, flatpak and command line ads made me switch to Debian testing. Not going back. Shuttlewho?
unsungNovelty 3y ago
If you are looking for a Linux distro, here is my recommendation. If you have the freedom, pick something that is independent + community driven(CD)/community oriented (CO) like Arch Linux(CD)/Linux Mint(CO) or which is not independent and depends on another distro's packages/infra but is still community oriented like Linux Mint or Elementary. It's not some tinfoil stuff. Community oriented or driven (entirely community driven like Arch) always listens to the community. This snap and flatpaks wouldn't happen in the first place. Use Linux Mint if you don't have time to initially set it up. Else use Arch Linux if you have initial time and patience to read. Arch is not scary like community is bad. There is a wall of text and it is intimidating. It needs time like a couple of days when you do it for the first time. But it is just about RTFM. Flatpak and Snap are unneccessary abstractions which adds a hell a lot of bloat and for what? To make a point release distro work similar to rolling release. Nothing else. So just use a rolling release distribution like Arch or OpenSuse Tumbleweed (which I haven't used but have been hearing good things. Especially since last week here in HN). But but, point release is bleeding edge and unstable! NO! They are stable versions of packages and not development streams. We seriously need to clear this confusion between a Linux distro's stable, testing, unstable repos and upstream's development branches. These two things are completely different. When you say for eg; Firefox v222222.1 with a serious security patch is in testing branch for your distro, it means it is not tested with YOUR distro which did some hacks to make it work cos it is a point release and froze your package for a point release. *AND NOT BECAUSE OF THE UPSTREAM DEVELOPMENT BRANCH HAS BUG.* Majority of the time, it is fixed already in upstream. And even if it is a bug which is new, your package needs to be an important one. Otherwise you will have to wait till your next point release update or version bump before receiving the update. This backporting and picky patching on point releases is creating a huge amount of unneccessary overhead on upstream because hacks/patching differ on each distro. Use any rolling release, Arch, Open Suse Tumbleweed, PCOSLinux, Void or a point release which uses unstable/testing branches (which ever is closest to upstream) like Debian unstable (Or whatever is being the distro's repo which is closest to upstream stable versions) which is essentially closer to upstream. These are for desktop users. AND NOT SERVERS. FYI.

409 points by chr15p 3y ago

dusted 3y ago

Great, now stop shipping snaps.

Taniwha 3y ago
yeah lost a day this week to bloody snaps
- trompetenaccoun 3y ago
  Is there a single user who likes snaps?
  - circuit10 3y ago
    They’re better than Flatpak for CLI applications I guess since Flatpak doesn’t aim to support those Is there another option for that than Snap, or Docker which is a bit too complicated to set up? (that’s not rhetorical, I would like to know if there is)
    - _joel 3y ago
      Another option https://appimage.org/ https://appimage.org/
      - dusted 3y ago
        Those are actually kind of nice.
  - k_bx 3y ago
    I've used it to install Nextcloud Hub and it was nice actually.
  - rickydroll 3y ago
    me. They provide solutions that work. There have been some teething pains but for the most part nonissues. It's at the point where I'm considering learning how to build snaps for private products I deliver. I think the argument over flat pack versus snaps may expressed in technological terms but in reality, it's just your damn ego. Let it go, it's really not worth arguing over. Use what solves your work problem and then go have a life away from computers.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
      > it's just your damn ego. It's really not. First, those technical problems are real problems that will create user-visible problems, ex. forced updates. Second, it has problems that are already user-facing, ex. startup times.
      - rickydroll 3y ago
        you are only proving my point. seriously, most users don't notice and don't care. heck, I know enough to notice and I still don't care because it does not interfere with my ability to get my job done. any mentioned technical problems are implementation issues, not design. they will be solved in 2ish years or less
  - ridgered4 3y ago
    Forced auto updates and a closed store mean I won't even try to like snaps. Those are the top two reasons I moved off Windows.
  - monsieurgaufre 3y ago
    While i don't go out of my way to use them, i've never, ever encountered any of the problems stated by others. And I'm not being selective with my devices at all (Asus laptops, hp minipc). I really wonder how i can have such a different experience to theirs apart from really esoteric parts/apps. Not saying it's not happening. While i'd prefer just using apt, they let me work without being a pain so i don't really care.
  - michaelhoffman 3y ago
    I started using a snap to run Emacs 28 on my Ubuntu 22.04.2 LTS system. The snap is maintained by a Canonical employee, and I like it better than any of the other ways I have used to get more bleeding-edge versions of software in the past, such as using a random Personal Package Archive (PPA) or building from source myself. Would I rather have the deb package be up-to-date? Sure. But when I've used distributions that try to stick closer to the bleeding edge everywhere, I've had bad experiences with stuff breaking. This lets me keep a stable, well-tested distribution for everything except for the one package I want to be newer. I can't compare to Flatpak or AppImage because I've never used them.

londons_explore 3y ago

Can we go back to just shipping apt packages? They worked fine, and I don't feel like having multiple types of containers and update methods and mounted image file systems really made anyone's life better.

bayesian_horse 3y ago
What you are really saying is you want all software developers to publish Debian packages (no such thing as "apt" packages) compatible with your particular Debian distribution, even though they might be using a different Debian based distribution, a completely different altogether, maybe even a different architecture, even though that compatibility isn't their primary concern.
- creshal 3y ago
  The whole point of a distribution is that this job is done by the distributors, not the authors.
  - alkonaut 3y ago
    Is there a distribution (or whatever one would call it - a Linux) where the aim is to not be managing the whole end-user system of OS+Apps, but just the OS. E.g. similar to Windows, or Android?
    - drbig 3y ago
      There are operating systems - like FreeBSD - which have a very strong and clear distinction between the Operating System base and third-party software.
    - dikei 3y ago
      For server there's Flatcar Container Linux, which only provide just enough to run containers. Everything else is provided by the container packager.
    - qbasic_forever 3y ago

Jackevansevo 3y ago

Reminder that if you don't like snaps and prefer flatpaks, it's pretty easy to migrate using: https://github.com/popey/unsnap https://github.com/popey/unsnap

ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
I like the project status > Let's say it's "Pre-alpha", as in "It kinda works on my computer".

NayamAmarshe 3y ago

Reminder that ZorinOS exists. It's Ubuntu, but better: https://zorin.com/os https://zorin.com/os

vesinisa 3y ago
I would've appreciated some background how this differs from the next Linux distro, and what's the relation to Ubuntu removing Flatpak?
- notRobot 3y ago
  Beautiful UI and themes, based on Ubuntu, built-in support for Windows software through PlayOnLinux and Wine, software store supports apt, snap and flatpak, you can use whichever method you like. https://help.zorin.com/docs/apps-games/install-apps/ https://help.zorin.com/docs/apps-games/install-apps/
  - YawningAngel 3y ago
    I'm not sure which major distro doesn't have "built-in support for Windows software through PlayOnLinux and Wine"
    - notRobot 3y ago
      The ones that don't come with Wine and PlayOnLinux preinstalled?
- NayamAmarshe 3y ago
  Some links I'd suggest reading: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2022/01/17/what-linux-distros-and-foss-projects-can-learn-from-zorin-os/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2022/01/17/what-... https://www.techrepublic.com/article/zorinos-16-is-exactly-what-a-linux-desktop-distribution-should-be/ https://www.techrepublic.com/article/zorinos-16-is-exactly-w... https://www.zdnet.com/article/zorin-os-puts-on-a-master-class-for-what-a-desktop-operating-system-should-be/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/zorin-os-puts-on-a-master-clas... Copy-pasting my comment from reddit: - Interface is amazing. Possibly the most polished and modern UI in any distro. - Nvidia drivers provided by default. - Biggest App store library in any Ubuntu-based distro. Comes with Ubuntu + Zorin + Flatpak + Snap repositories. - Made for newbies and pros alike. - Wine pre-installed, so you can even use some Windows programs without doing any extra configuration. - Has great hardware compatibility and is always on latest LTS kernel. - Great performance. - Extremely stable because it's based on Ubuntu. - Works great for gaming. - Has extra proprietary drivers pre-installed for example, Intel WiFi chipsets. - Multiple layouts, Windows like shortcuts. - Good amount of customization. - Since it's based on Ubuntu, most articles and tutorials available online also will apply to ZorinOS. - Did I mention that the UI is very polished? ZorinOS is a no-brainer choice if you want a 'Just Works™' system that also looks highly polished. Ubuntu's focus is not the user, but corporate. Just compare their home pages and you'll know what I'm talking about. It's ubuntu but better, why would you use Ubuntu ;)

calcifer 3y ago

Article is paywalled.

blowski 3y ago
There's no workaround as far as I know. This MSN (!) article is about the same thing, albeit it's almost certainly a lower quality article. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/ubuntu-flavors-to-stop-supporting-flatpak-heres-how-to-enable-it/ar-AA17Ynvq https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/ubuntu-flavors-to-...
jwilk 3y ago
https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/927262/6adb2350e2b0d2ce/ https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/927262/6adb2350e2b0d2ce/

petepete 3y ago

Mir, Unity, now Snap. Ubuntu has a track record of wanting to go it alone. But, I'm all for competition, long may it continue. The only real negative here is that some apps will only release Snaps, others will only release Flatpaks and people will end up having to just revert to copr/AUR like before. Choosing a distro is basically choosing a DE and package manager these days anyway - a single unified packaging format that works everywhere is more frustrating than an alternative DE or windowing system.

bibanez 3y ago
I've had some success with Nix. Still I would only generally recommend it for development (even though I use NixOs)
- sandwell 3y ago
  Also a Nix/NixOS user/contributer. I feel like Nix+nixpkgs could become the universal packaging solution adapted to build deb, rpm, etc packages. Through nix-env it even already has the idea (albeit discouraged) of imperative package management like apt. Having spent a while with NixOS, running containers for user applications seems like using a cannon to kill a fly. The 'simple' alternative is to drop FHS altogether - which containerization is kind of doing in a roundabout way by isolating the app filesystem from system fhs. As for it being for developers only... I get that perspective. Debian/Ubuntu packaging is also hard, AUR packaging has its quirks. A lot of this is hidden behind the package manager, wheras with NixOS it is more obvious. The killer idea for NixOS would be to make package management for Joe Q Public as easy to use as apt while. Tools like MyNixOS[1] are emerging which might bridge that gap. [1] https://mynixos.com https://mynixos.com
  - TobTobXX 3y ago
    The one advantage Flatpak provides for me over Nix is containerisation. Not the bullet-proof kind, which allows you to run malware, but of the "reasonable" kind, which stops apps from storing to any directory they like just like that (only chroot level of "security"/isolation would be fine for me). When there's a package manager / runtime that does both then I'm extremely interested.

quaintdev 3y ago

Moved to Fedora for the mess around snaps and I'm not going to look back.

qbasic_forever 3y ago
I've been setting up the new Fedora 38 sway spin (Wayland + sway wm out of the box) and am really impressed. I've been an Ubuntu derivative user for a long time but Fedora is great so far.
- jadbox 3y ago
  I've switched to Fedora KDE spin, and I've been loving it. KDE recently got native window tiling support which has been nice. It's not nearly as powerful at tiling as Sway, but it fits the bill for my use.
brobinson 3y ago
Fedora + flatpak + everything transparently running in bubblewrap automatically has been a very nice experience. Snaps drove me off Ubuntu, and I'm glad I landed on Fedora.
- npteljes 3y ago
  Fedora drove me off twice now, because I had bad luck both times with release updates. I haven't even configured the system too much, but there were several things broken after the release upgrate, the most notable being the file manager crashing while opening. Since Fedora bumps its version twice a year, with my experience, you don't get much time to run a smooth system.
  - bravetraveler 3y ago
    Fedora supports two releases at a time, that stability is in N-1 I try to give the new release about a month to bake
    - 3y ago

ndsipa_pomu 3y ago

They could do with improving the behaviour of snaps first before removing alternatives. The updates are currently awkward as they don't seem to work if the application is running which can be a problem with something like Firefox which I have running for days at a time. It's also annoying that it's gone from using simple "apt" commands to keep the machine up-to-date, to also needing a "snap refresh". I choose to use Ubuntu at work for a bunch of stuff, but snaps are making me consider whether it's worth migrating over to Debian instead.

rlpb 3y ago
> The updates are currently awkward as they don't seem to work if the application is running The fix for this is currently being tested: https://bugs.launchpad.net/snapd/+bug/1980271 https://bugs.launchpad.net/snapd/+bug/1980271 > before removing alternatives Alternatives remain available for install. They weren't removed.
- snovv_crash 3y ago
  apt install firefox still works?
  - noobermin 3y ago
    I think it does, why wouldn't it work? That's installing it via aptitude, not flatpak.
    - Maakuth 3y ago
      It does not work as one would expect. Instead of installing Firefox itself, it installs some sort of a script that installs Firefox from snap.
    - dagw 3y ago
      It hasn't 'worked' since Ubuntu 21.10. Ubuntu overrides your apt install and installs the snap version instead for programs that have snaps.

ymgch 3y ago

What difference does it make?

fyloraspit 3y ago

Flatpaks are better than snaps IMO, but both are only good for certain apps due to the largely half baked implementations.

wazoox 3y ago

You could use Pop_OS, which is an Ubuntu derivative with flatpak instead of snap.

rvz 3y ago

The Linux desktop stack fragmentation continues.

nicolaslem 3y ago
That is just Ubuntu doing Ubuntu things. Like most of their other endeavors, like Upstart or Unity, they will eventually get bored with snap and adopt the most common tool instead.
- rvz 3y ago
  My point still stands.
- sofixa 3y ago
  Just to be clear, Canonical are often the first ones with a solution to a problem (Unity, Mir, Upstart, Snap, LXD predate alternatives trying to solve the same problems existing in existing software), they just usually use the ensuing "war" for adoption due to varying degrees of bad strategy, Red Hat being more popular, poor technical choices or just bad luck.
  - the_why_of_y 3y ago
    Often? Only in case of Upstart and LXD (I'm not familiar with the latter's history). Here's Mark Shuttleworth in 2010: The next major transition for Unity will be to deliver it on Wayland, the OpenGL-based display management system. We came to the conclusion that any such effort would only create a hard split in the world which wasn’t worth the cost of having done it. There are issues with Wayland, but they seem to be solvable, we’d rather be part of solving them than chasing a better alternative. So Wayland it is. https://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/551 https://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/551 Then in 2013, Unity 8 was released with Mir. Snap was largely developed in parallel with FlatPak (called xdg-app initially). There was a talk about the plans at GUADEC 2013: https://www.superlectures.com/guadec2013/sandboxed-applications-for-gnome https://www.superlectures.com/guadec2013/sandboxed-applicati...

georgyo 3y ago

What I really want is for Nix or something like Nix to become standard. We can very easily mimic flatpak and snap by wrapping a nix closure in bwrap. You can have the choice to sandbox it or not with Nix. And you can easily compose it with other software.

jacquesm 3y ago

As long as they stop shipping snaps by default as well and go back to stuff that 'just worked' instead of 'stuff that works in interesting and novel ways'.

mg 3y ago

I wish there was a solution like flatpak or snap that does make things simpler, not more complex. To begin with: It would be nice if the data of the containerized applications were stored in one place and one place only. Each application should simply be a single directory in /snaps/ or something. At first I thought snap would be like that. But no. When I did some tests, the data of a snap seems to be splattered across various places on the file system.

jovial_cavalier 3y ago
https://nixos.org/guides/nix-pills/ https://nixos.org/guides/nix-pills/
killerstorm 3y ago
Well if the app works with documents I'd like to have them in ~/Documents, not in /snaps/
- Izkata 3y ago
  I think they're referring to this: /usr/share/bash-completion/completions/snap /usr/bin/snap /home/izkata/snap /var/snap /snap
preisschild 3y ago
Flatpak does this. It stores it in `~/.var/app/`

daenney 3y ago

It speaks volumes to the success of Snap that they’re now moving to ensure Flatpak isn’t part of the default desktop experience. The only outcome this leads to is monetisation attempts through their store and other OS integrations to try and turn free users into a source of revenue. If you’re using Ubuntu for desktop I’d urge you to start exploring alternatives.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

muyuu 3y ago

I wonder if these developments won't eventually result on a split, when at some point Ubuntu would rather not keep up with Debian packages, or talk things through upstream. Perhaps when there are some fundamental differences of direction at the packaging level.

corobo 3y ago

Today VLC didn't start. No errors, no reason. Just didn't start. Turns out snapd.apparmor, whatever that is, wasn't running. (I ran `vlc` on the cli to figure it out) I love snaps, they're so convenient for the end user..

_joel 3y ago

It was expected, they're doing a semi walled garden with this snaps stuff it seems. I jumped ship back to regular Debian after the snapd stuff was foisted on users. Not looked back since.

wilonth 3y ago

Wow they're still pushing snaps, the project with some the worst engineering I've ever seen. - Extremely slow at doing anything, even the most basic commands. - Ridiculous auto-update mechanism (you can't even disable it wtf). - Random, nonsense limitations (why can't I open dot files and dot directories???). So terrible that for most apps that I installed with snaps I end up installing the deb version later on. What an abomination, it is a devil that's hurting the Linux desktop everyday.

_0ffh 3y ago
Yup, I ditched Ubuntu for good when they started with this snap nonsense.
thangalin 3y ago
And: - Violates XDG Base Directory Specification https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/snapd/+bug/1575053 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/snapd/+bug/1575053
CalRobert 3y ago
Snaps are getting me off Desktop Ubuntu after 12 years of happily using it.
- Gracana 3y ago
  Same here. I was a happy Ubuntu desktop user for over a decade. Now I’m a happy Arch user.
  - noloblo 3y ago
    Same here off Ubuntu and onto centos/fedora rpm dnf world
    - 2b3a51 3y ago
      Glad you have something sorted out. Just interested: why not Debian? i.e. still deb based distro? I'm guessing the poster above you wants recent package versions as they went to Arch.

davidthewatson 3y ago

Yep. The notion that they're listening to anyone, anywhere is marketecture at best. I was outspoken in my interview about snaps. Of course this is the path to success in a monoculture.

andrewclunn 3y ago

In 5 years I predict an arch based SteamOS derivative will be the most common desktop linux for personal users. It will have the backing of solid engineering form a company that couldn't care less about being opinionated regarding the desktop user space.

jklinger410 3y ago

I'm not sure if Ubuntu realizes that the entire Linux ecosystem is moving away from them because of this flatpak vs snap situation. I'm sure their enterprise side is fine, but their consumer side is disappearing rapidly.

remram 3y ago
I don't think the Linux ecosystem likes Flatpak that much more than Snap. They are both pretty terrible.
- jklinger410 3y ago
  People love flatpak and hate snap, actually.
  - bravetraveler 3y ago
    Indeed! The temperature generally favors Flatpak, no doubt. Personally... I tolerate it. It's useful for things I can't manage otherwise. Though I'll admit I'm in an incredibly small niche -- I maintain RPMs on COPR for fun... and at work. I part with an anecdote! We weren't too careful on some Ubuntu systems and ended up with critical networking services in Snap. The saving grace was: these systems are completely offline, so it couldn't sneak in updates. Note: this usually shouldn't be a big worry, but we have some debt
  - remram 3y ago
    Over AppImage or APT, really? Do people ever go "great, it's not in my distro but there's a FlatPak available, just as good"? Not saying you're wrong, but this is surprising to me, and not my own reaction as a full-time Linux user.
    - jklinger410 3y ago
      I'm saying flatpak over snap, that's all.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

FpUser 3y ago

I think it should remove both - Flatpack and Snap. Stick to apt, improve it if you wish. ">This adds fuel to the fire that Canonical is doing this largely to further its own interests." What a surprise, companies (excluding rare exceptions) are there to make money, not to give it out. Interests of the customers are taken into account only as far as it helps to increas income and satisfy legal obligations.

0xbadc0de5 3y ago

Can't stand Snap, Flatpak and AppImage. They're the Nodejs of the software distribution world - a horrendously inefficient way to distribute software. DEBs and RPMs via APT and DNF are far better, imho.

Havoc 3y ago

Are Ubuntu devs just not reading the room?

Avamander 3y ago
Oh they are, but they're intentionally ignoring the feedback. Instead of listening to hundreds of users (a ridiculously high amount for a bug report) they've said (paraphrasing) that they have "many more users to cater to".
friend_and_foe 3y ago
These organizations just demonstrate utter disdain for their users. It's not just Canonical. It's almost every company that's been around for more than a couple of decades. Microsoft, Google and Mozilla are also like this. They just don't care what their users want and they treat them like children who need to be spanked when they don't like it. I personally end all relationships I have with any organization that does this.

nunodonato 3y ago

Like many, I have had my fair share of frustrations with snaps. Already considering moving away from Ubuntu, but not sure where to go next. Is Debian a good option? I use Linux both personally and professionally, so while I do like to tinker with new stuff, I also need some stability. I've used rolling-release distros in the past and its something I'd like to try again. Maybe Manjaro?

shortrounddev 3y ago
I stopped using linux 6 years ago when i realized it had become a glorified desktop cuztomization software for me. Now I use Windows, and on the extremely rare occasions that I need Linux, I use WSL2. But for the most part I do everything on Windows with Powershell
- nunodonato 3y ago
  I only use windows for flight simulator, everything else is extremely frustrating for me, it feels like a battle against the OS. May not be the experience of many, but for me Linux stays out of my way or, rather, lets me define what the "way" is. Wouldn't switch for anything :)
joao_lopes 3y ago
I've moved from Ubuntu to Fedora and it's been more stable while also being more up-to-date without rolling-release distros headaches. Strongly recommend it.
- nunodonato 3y ago
  I gave Fedora a try some years ago (4-5?) and had a couple of issues with nvidia drivers. Whats the status these days? I also have a long history with debs, so going to rpm is a mystery for me :)
  - Daegalus 3y ago
    It's vastly better nowadays. Also with `dnf` RPMs are as easy as DEBs. And some of the commands are similar. I find dnf is even smarter and better at managing dependencies. I only ever run 2-3 commands. `dnd install` `dnf update` and `dnf remove`. Update handles the repo refresh and actually updating packages. And force refreshing repos you just add `--refresh` to the command. Otherwise it does it every few hours on its own (the refreshing of repos, not installing updates) Fedora is a breath of fresh air after decades of Ubuntu, and then Manjaro. I wouldnt go back and I have used Ubuntu since 5.04 til 22.04

_odey 3y ago

Another snap failure story: You install chromium-browser through apt Chromium gets installed through snap You go to a PWA to install locally (like M$ Teams) The desktop entry is saved with a path hardcoded to /snap/chromium/1234/... (1234 is the id) You update chromium, either intentionally or automatically, the ID changes Now you can't access your PWA anymore unless you edit the desktop entry and change the id or replace it with `current`. Such horrible user experience for no positive gain. And this is not a Linux problem, but an Ubuntu problem. Yet there is no difference in the eyes of people because "it's their Linux that broke...". Bad user experience, bad implementation, bad decisions, and bad reputation to the wrong target, just because Canonical's Ubuntu is the "default" Linux.

tkuraku 3y ago

I like flatpaks much better than snaps. I wish they would implement an equivalent to snap's classic confinement so that apps like vscode could interact easily with the default system shell, libraries, executables etc. That feels like a big hole in flatpaks.

thomasvm 3y ago

So, for a developer, what's currently the best hassle-free desktop Linux Distribution?

trenchgun 3y ago
PopOS, SuSE maybe
- zach_garwood 3y ago
  I have been really impressed with PopOS so far.
- thomasvm 3y ago
  Never checkout PopOS before, thanks for the hint!
friend_and_foe 3y ago
Any of them that isn't some opinionated special feature distro besides Ubuntu. Just pick one. Arch, Debian, CentOS, Fedora, any niche little distro, and if you're opinionated about something theres devuan, alpine, void, NixOS. About the only ones I don't recommend anymore are Ubuntu and Manjaro.
wankle 3y ago
There's no easy answer, the Linux Desktop world is more fractured today than ever. I use and like Ubuntu, Debian 11 has had driver issues for me. I don't like RPM distros. For Ubuntu, I had to uninstall snapd and pin it to never be installed. For Firefox, I downloaded it, unpacked it and use its Help menu to update it. I don't use Chromium because Ubuntu only ships it as a snap now, I use Chrome.
jrsj 3y ago
EndeavourOS is the easiest way to use Arch imo, its a pretty painless installation and gives you a working desktop environment out of the box & seems to be pretty good at detecting hardware and installing drivers too.
3y ago

chrimbus1 3y ago

I mean, you could always just do `sudo apt install flatpak`

jonnycomputer 3y ago
Not installing software by default doesn't seem that big of a deal to me. I mean, first thing I do is install Emacs, which should, but doesn't, come pre-packaged with Linux. vim, sure. gedit, ok.

its-summertime 3y ago

https://fosstodon.org/@wimpy/109908489437633387 https://fosstodon.org/@wimpy/109908489437633387 @bluesabre@floss.social "[…] Ultimately, each of the current flavor leads agreed to the change. […]" @wimpy@fosstodon.org "@bluesabre Did we agree? I think we complied with the requested change. You and I both played our part in ensuring this was clearly and openly communicated." - - - https://nelsonaloysio.medium.com/installing-ubuntus-snap-on-fedora-silverblue-e82ca6fd6108 https://nelsonaloysio.medium.com/installing-ubuntus-snap-on-... > […] As Ubuntu’s snap requires access to the root file system in order to create a symlink in /snap to /var/lib/snapd/snap, successfully installing it requires a few extra steps. Besides, $HOME directory in Silverblue defaults to the more traditional path /var/home/$USER, and since snap expects it to be on its modern location /home/$USER, this must be worked around as well. […]

web3-is-a-scam 3y ago

I didn't even know Ubuntu ships flatpak preinstalled. It's not like they are removing it from repositories, if you want flatpak install it - I don't see the issue.

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cprecioso 3y ago

It's surprising to me how Canonical keeps "losing" when positing competing technologies (e.g.: Upstart, Mir, Unity, and now Snap)

the_why_of_y 3y ago
There is a common theme to all of them: Canonical retains exclusive control over the development by requiring assignment of copyright of all contributions to Canonical. The obvious consequence is that anybody who doesn't get paid by Canonical and wants to work in the area decides to contribute to the community based CLA-free competitor project (systemd, Wayland, Gnome/KDE/..., Flatpak), which eventually becomes more powerful/flexible/reliable due to lots of companies and individuals contributing. (The oldest of the CLA projects was the "Bazaar" distributed version control system, almost completely forgotten now)

tacker2000 3y ago

Moved to Debian a while ago because of the mess with Unity and snaps, etc… A shame, since ubuntu got me into linux desktop back then, but in the end they keep screwing things up needlessly.

Bellamy 3y ago
I didn't, but my next OS won't be Ubuntu for the same reasons.

jonnycomputer 3y ago

Personally I've just not had that many problems with snaps. Just one, really, with Firefox. Firefox was crashing every-time I used the File API; removing the snap file cache fixed the problem. I don't have enough experience with Flatpak to compare.

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ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago

>Another potential concern may be that Canonical could be using this decision to force package upstreams to offer a Snap version or face not being easily available in the default Ubuntu installation. There we are.

rolenthedeep 3y ago

Canonical had a booth at CES this year, just a few rows over from mine. Every time I walked by it was totally deserted, just an employee or two looking at their phones. It was rather cathartic to see

t43562 3y ago

I see why software vendors don't want to have to target specific distributions if they can help it - it's expensive. I assume snaps and flatpaks try to mitigate that problem. I wouldn't want it to be a very common solution really because it's not that efficient and means you get updates for security when that vendor feels like it. I'm happiest with MOST software being in the distribution. Anyhow I know there are lots of ways to look down on Arch/Pacman (Artix in my case - dinit instead of systemd) but I have to say that it is simply much more enjoyable to use than Ubuntu or Fedora or even Debian IMO. Perhaps one day some terrible thing will happen to make me regret it but I just cannot imagine going back to the horrible burdens of those distros - upgrading from one version to another (especially on Fedora - groan), selinux, snap Firefox etc

sounds 3y ago

The solution used by Linux Mint seems apt: cd /etc/apt/preferences.d/ cat nosnap.pref # To prevent repository packages from triggering the installation of Snap, # this file forbids snapd from being installed by APT. # For more information: https://linuxmint-user-guide.readthedocs.io/en/latest/snap.html Package: snapd Pin: release a=* Pin-Priority: -10

pmarreck 3y ago

The more struggle Linux users have with snaps, flatpaks, appimages, and whatever their native package management system's quirks are, the more they will appreciate switching to NixOS one day, which IMHO is "the only sane Linux" as it's already definitively solved this problem. Join me in shaking my head at all this from the finish line... And honestly, I get it. I avoided it for years (it's 20 years old now!!) mostly because the nix language and words like "derivations" scared me*, until a year ago after hopping distros for quite a while (hmmm Elementary, Pop_OS, Ubuntu, Manjaro, Arch...) and after a month where I had both a bricking AND a seemingly-unsolvable interdependency build problem, I got mad and decided to take a deep breath and check out https://nixos.org/ https://nixos.org/ * here, let me immediately solve that fear: Nix interactive language tour, it's like JSON with syntax sugar and pure functions: https://nixcloud.io/tour/ https://nixcloud.io/tour/ . And a "derivation"? That's basically a "lockfile" for a particular package, if you know what that is (and you probably do). Except it existed before the concept of "lockfiles", so it got that name.

gatvol 3y ago

This feels like .deb vs .rpm all over again.

sedatk 3y ago

We should have never climbed down the Slackware tree.

bfrog 3y ago

When ubuntu shoved libreoffice in a snap, and it took forever to start and crashed randomly. That was the day I wrote off ubuntu.

tasuki 3y ago

> Ubuntu is prioritizing deb and Snap, its default packaging technologies, while no longer providing a competitor by default. This is described as an effort to provide consistency and simplicity for users. It does! It'd be even simpler and more consistent if they dropped snaps and only used debs!

timetraveller26 3y ago

Is there anything good about snaps?

fpanzer 3y ago

Too late. Snap, flatpak and command line ads made me switch to Debian testing. Not going back. Shuttlewho?

unsungNovelty 3y ago

If you are looking for a Linux distro, here is my recommendation. If you have the freedom, pick something that is independent + community driven(CD)/community oriented (CO) like Arch Linux(CD)/Linux Mint(CO) or which is not independent and depends on another distro's packages/infra but is still community oriented like Linux Mint or Elementary. It's not some tinfoil stuff. Community oriented or driven (entirely community driven like Arch) always listens to the community. This snap and flatpaks wouldn't happen in the first place. Use Linux Mint if you don't have time to initially set it up. Else use Arch Linux if you have initial time and patience to read. Arch is not scary like community is bad. There is a wall of text and it is intimidating. It needs time like a couple of days when you do it for the first time. But it is just about RTFM. Flatpak and Snap are unneccessary abstractions which adds a hell a lot of bloat and for what? To make a point release distro work similar to rolling release. Nothing else. So just use a rolling release distribution like Arch or OpenSuse Tumbleweed (which I haven't used but have been hearing good things. Especially since last week here in HN). But but, point release is bleeding edge and unstable! NO! They are stable versions of packages and not development streams. We seriously need to clear this confusion between a Linux distro's stable, testing, unstable repos and upstream's development branches. These two things are completely different. When you say for eg; Firefox v222222.1 with a serious security patch is in testing branch for your distro, it means it is not tested with YOUR distro which did some hacks to make it work cos it is a point release and froze your package for a point release. *AND NOT BECAUSE OF THE UPSTREAM DEVELOPMENT BRANCH HAS BUG.* Majority of the time, it is fixed already in upstream. And even if it is a bug which is new, your package needs to be an important one. Otherwise you will have to wait till your next point release update or version bump before receiving the update. This backporting and picky patching on point releases is creating a huge amount of unneccessary overhead on upstream because hacks/patching differ on each distro. Use any rolling release, Arch, Open Suse Tumbleweed, PCOSLinux, Void or a point release which uses unstable/testing branches (which ever is closest to upstream) like Debian unstable (Or whatever is being the distro's repo which is closest to upstream stable versions) which is essentially closer to upstream. These are for desktop users. AND NOT SERVERS. FYI.