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DevDegree: Work at Shopify and get a free CS degree in parallel
- rshnotsecure 7y agoI’ve always really liked Shopify. They have been doing creative things regarding funding people and internships and learning opportunities for a couple of years now. Someone who wasn’t able to get a job from a bootcamp (camp was very good IMO it was corporations being absurd at this point about hiring requirements) was saved by Shopify and some program they had back then. CONCERNING PART: today I thought Shopify had a major security issue. They do not at all. It turned out to be...Google? Apparently even Pixel devices, fully updated, can be now attacked via fake Google Play stores. The apps, if you request to see it in the App Store, lead to the real Google Play. However there are hundreds of reviews there for people who obviously have this fake app. Today is the first day I’ve ever been scared in cybersecurity. I cannot find American reporting on this, but only foreign. Apologies for all the ads on this site. Would recommend searching for it elsewhere as well to get full picture. Keep in mind this can also be done without installing anything via an exploit kit on a webpage - https://www.themobileindian.com/picture-story/how-google-play-store-was-home-to-27-apps-that-installed-fake-google-play-stores-1256-13485 https://www.themobileindian.com/picture-story/how-google-pla...
- swyx 7y agoi am wishing i could go back 15 years and do this now. i was dumb enough to go to an ivy league for an unrelated degree, then change careers and go thru a bootcamp, and i'm now still 100's of thousands in debt. if i was growing up today i would absolutely drop everything to do this. kudos to shopify but it really feels a little bittersweet.
- chrisseaton 7y ago> now still 100's of thousands in debt Is that hyperbole, or literally your debt is that much?
- codegeek 7y agoGP went to an Ivy league. Totally possible
- dstroot 7y agoMore than possible. Highly likely.
- dwohnitmok 7y agoGiven the amount, that's actually fairly unlikely to be from the Ivy League education. Generally Ivy League schools cost less (sometimes way less) than public schools unless your family makes more than ~130-150k combined and/or has fairly substantial assets. One possible way for it to happen is if a student's parents have a high income, are unwilling to pay for the student's education and force the student to shoulder the financial burden, and the student does not argue his/her case to the financial aid office. Another possible way is if the family has a relatively high pre-existing net worth, but low income, and is unwilling to spend the income, and again the student shoulders the debt.
- susijdjdjxa 7y agoThe Ivy no-loan policies are a relatively recent development.
- dwohnitmok 7y agoMy impression is that at least for the last two decades, loans have made up a significant minority of Ivy league financial aid and most of it has come in the form of grant money. I think loans started getting phased out right around 15 years ago.
- swyx 7y agoin my case this is pretty much what happened, except with the singapore government loaning money at 10% compound interest via a scholarship, which i had to break due to being assigned to a terrible job post graduation. i may be book smart but ive made some colossal screwups in my life.
- faceyspacey 7y agoJust never pay the debts bro. Forget that shit and let it all go, and start stacking to live a debt free stress free life.
- cmwelsh 7y agoI know you’re downvoted for saying something that’s basically unethical, but I’m interested: how do you propose to buy a home using this strategy? All cash? In my area, I’d need around $200,000 cash. I know there’s trailer parks and etc. but they may not work for everyone.
- zdragnar 7y agoLoans originating in the US for education are generally not discharged in bankruptcy. Not paying them is a good way to get your wages garnished or worse. I have no idea what recourse there might be from a loan through Singapore. That being said, discharging debt in bankruptcy will haunt your credit for 7 years, or so I've heard. Being forced to not finance anything for 7 years is a decent way to save money if you've got a good paying job, I suppose, as you don't fall into the trap of only looking at the monthly payment without thinking of the total cost.
- tonyedgecombe 7y agoI know you’re downvoted for saying something that’s basically unethical It was unethical for the system to push an 18 year old down the route of taking on huge loans. I'm not sure that finding a way out of that is.
- LoSboccacc 7y agodon't the majority of 18yo guys have parents or adults around they can refer to in helping their decision?
- matwood 7y ago> the system So we are going to absolve all 18 year olds of decision making because of 'the system'? As an 18 year old I was keenly aware of debt. My college experience was going to a local school while working 20-30 hours/week and living at home. All because we didn't have much money, and I wanted to take as few loans as possible. So maybe this persons parents and primary school failed them, but I don't buy it was the system.
- gigatexal 7y agoWhile my debt load is not nearly as much I did the same thing. I studied economics even though when I got home from class I would spend hours and hours tinkering with hardware, Linux, and programming. Everyone I talked to thought I was silly for not sticking with my CS major and doing Economics. They were right. I am learning on the job and it’s been kicking my butt but I am learning and it’s been good though I would go back and tell my old self to stick with CS.
- pjc50 7y agoEconomics could have been a gateway to a high-earning career, but you'd have had to work in finance.
- gigatexal 7y agoThat was the plan. But I went to a no-name school in the eyes of the finance world but also my heart wasn’t into it so my performance wasn’t great. And it occurred to me almost by the end of my studies that I didn’t want to work in finance. Economics is really interesting though.
- rchaud 7y agoDon't put yourself down too much about past decisions. I also went to school for Econ, and did IT support and web design jobs on campus. But I wanted to set my career up for finance and did summer analyst internships. Then, 2008 happened and all the finance jobs dried up with some companies skipping campus recruitment entirely. A decade later and I'm working in UX research and digital strategy and the finance stuff feels like a lifetime ago. Everyone's journey is going to be different.
- Aperocky 7y agoGraduated from an unrelated degree more recently, but had the opportunity to write a whole lot of code while there. Got my first dev job right out of school. There are much more opportunities nowaday to use coding in almost every major, sadly, the schools haven't changed, ending up imo ruining a lot of career.
- IggleSniggle 7y agoTook me getting a doctorate in an unrelated field before I realized I was in the wrong place and changed careers. I don't have the debt (just the opportunity cost of wasting a decade doing something I didn't really want to do), and this program wouldn't have saved me, but I understand your regret.
- beering 7y agoCurious and want to ask: if this were available 15 years ago, would you have done it? It seems like you'd need to 1) have CS as your goal, 2) know about Shopify and their program, and 3) get in. I know a lot of people don't even have CS on their radar when they enter college.
- swyx 7y agoyeah of course, 15 year hindsight is 20/20 :)
- sumo89 7y agoI don't have the amount of debt that you do but I also did a career change after some years of doing dead end jobs. I have the same feeling that I wish this was an option for me when I was looking to start university but I'm also aware I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life when I was 18. Chances are I would do these 4 years then decide I want to be a sky diving instructor or something instead.
- zerr 7y agoIf we ignore pedigree and networking, how good (high quality material/curriculum, good lecturers) do public/affordable/free universities and colleges provide (in US)?
- gazelle21 7y agoIt's pretty hit or miss. I went to community college, and some classes were amazing others were a complete joke.
- duxup 7y agoAs someone who went the bootcamp route, got a job, and absolutely would love a structured CS education that would expand my skills and experience beyond my day to day coding I do now this is very tempting. The site isn't very specific about location, are there location requirements?
- sysbin 7y agoFirst glance makes me think you would need to attend either Carleton University or York University.
- duxup 7y agoThat was my theory as well. Understandable.
- PandawanFr 7y agoYeah, they mention that you have to apply to (or currently attend) one of these two universities to apply to this program.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- willjp 7y agoThere are two universities involved: Carleton (Ottawa, Ontario, Canada) and York (Toronto, Ontario, Canada). You must apply and qualify for the university degree, in addition to being selected by shoppify themselves. If I remember correctly when I asked about it, the University also had some say in the selection process. When I looked into it, the number of accepted was quite low (I believe less than 15 per year), which to me indicates they are quite selective. The people I met were exceptionally friendly, and genuine. It seems like a really excellent place to work, at least from the outside.
- Malp 7y agoI'm currently in the program; the university side of the application and Shopify side were separate. The Shopify interview consisted of several interview stages, while York & Carleton looked at your academic transcript, same as any Canadian program.
- rshnotsecure 7y agoHey I got downvoted on the “Google Play” store security exploit thing below. Anyone have an answer as to why dozens of reviews on there make the same comment as well within the last few weeks? Keep in mind there is an official HackerNews plug-in for filebeats that can stream comments live to Elasticsearch. You can find these clusters online streaming in the very comments we make now to alert groups of down voters to smother you. Something to think about / use Binary Edge and the query “elasticsearch.docs:>100000” to find the really big clusters. No password at all fully exposed and there are 7,600 of those online worldwide now.
- duxup 7y agoI honestly don't know what the context of your comment is.
- rshnotsecure 7y agoThere are bots via streaming Elasticsearch clusters that auto downvote HackerNews comments. I have the data so not really arguable. Probably discovered by tons of people before me FYI. I’m a mediocre engineer who happens to occasionally uses Shodan / BinaryEdge. The fact that you get treated like absolute garbage if you’re wrong (even if there is nothing to be gained financially) I think suggests why others haven’t spoken up. That and Elasticsearch isn’t the easiest.
- mlthoughts2018 7y agoHmm seems like the bad neural nets from reddit are coming here now?
- sansnomme 7y agoGPT-2 trained on own Reddit profile and deployed to HN perhaps?
- RobRivera 7y agoI think you might be on the wrong thread here. That said - are you saying there is an alert mechanism to encourage brigading?
- baron816 7y agoSays $160,000 salary. I’m guessing that’s total over the 4 years, so $40k CAD per year. Still a great deal.
- fataliss 7y agoIt says salary, tuition & vacation. So I wouldn't be surprised if that's a $160k estimation for the whole thing for the 4 years! But yeah, either way, better than $60k/y in tuition you end up owing!
- vuwumu 7y agoTuition in Canada is around $10k-20k/year depending on school and status.
- disconcision 7y agoSounds a bit high. From a brief search (computer science bsc tuition, CAD, domestic (non-quebec) student): $6500 UBC, $11000 (McGill), $12500 (UofT), $15500 (Waterloo)
- coralreef 7y ago$10k tuition at York U, for the CS degree mentioned in the link.
- alphakilo 7y ago40000 Canadian per year is correct. You are given vacation days and are expected to work like a salaried employee. Plus they cover the tuition which is approximately 10 thousand a year after fees. Source: Lassonde student (where the dev degree program exists)
- fataliss 7y agoWould be nice for (a) company/ies to do the same and allow for remote work while partnering with online program(s) (a la udemey & co or even some Harvard online). That way, it would let people all over the world access it and pool some really dope talent for the company(ies)! The students would be thrilled for the free or subsidized education while having some real world practice from real world companies. I remember hating how dumb some of the projects were in school and how going out of your way to make the project really awesome didn't really earn you much.
- clintonb 7y agoRemote work can be difficult for experienced engineers. I imagine it would be a huge burden for new engineers.
- sandGorgon 7y agoWe dont have accreditation from universities, but this is the direction we are going with the RedCarpet ROCKS program . https://www.redcarpetup.com/rocks https://www.redcarpetup.com/rocks we do active placement here (unless we hire them). We have an above 90% placement rate here.
- sandeep1998 7y agoInterested. Final year I.T. engineering student from university of Mumbai.
- tybit 7y agoThis looks a lot more like an apprenticeship to me than a degree. Which I think is fantastic, Universities are generally terrible at teaching practical skills and fantastic at teaching theory.
- stonejolt 7y agoThat's what we call 'Duales Studium' in Germany. You just do your semesters normally and in between instead of springbreak etc you work for the company.
- curiousgal 7y agoIt's popular in France too, "Alternance"; you spend two or three days in the company per week and the rest in school. It's mostly for senior grad students.
- lwkl 7y agoThis is like part-time studies at a university of applied science in Switzerland. You can work up to 60% but the bachelors degree takes a year longer.
- dna_polymerase 7y agoYes, and the founder of Shopify is originally from Germany, I bet he got inspired by that.
- spinlock_ 7y agoYeah, I guess so too. Toby told in a podcast [0] that he finished an apprenticeship as "Fachinformatiker für Anwendungsentwicklung". Though it's not the same as "Duales Studium" (which gives you an academic degree while former doesn't) I guess this program was highly influenced by his experience. Though I'm asking myself if this kind of program is common in Canada or is Shopify doing something unique here? [0]: https://fs.blog/tobi-lutke/ https://fs.blog/tobi-lutke/
- ec109685 7y ago
- starpilot 7y agoWhat are "mature students"?
- kuresov 7y agoUsually students who already have a degree and/or life experience. Generally older than the demographic for "college age student"
- HiroshiSan 7y agohttps://admissions.carleton.ca/applicant-type/mature-applicants/ https://admissions.carleton.ca/applicant-type/mature-applica...
- xupybd 7y agoWait how do they make money out of this. They're paying salary to people that can't yet code? I've seen companies strugle to make money with mid level devs.
- fnbr 7y agoThey’re not paying them that much- $160 000 over four years, including tuition. So it’s $40 000 a year, which is a great deal imo (for both parties). I assume that, with sufficient screening, you can get someone contributing relatively quickly, and start getting value. I think the key is the screening- they’re not giving this offer to every CS student. At the places I’ve worked, we’ve definitely got value out of interns comparable to a junior developer.
- a_imho 7y agoFor 40k you can hire senior engineers with degrees in Europe.
- cpr 7y agoThat’s 27.5K euro.
- insertnickname 7y agoEurope is a big place. Certainly can't hire a senior engineer with a degree for 40k where I live. Even for a junior it would be low.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- a_imho 7y agoLucky for you living in a high GDP country, in Central and Eastern Europe you certainly can.
- keenmaster 7y agoWhen you’re the first large provider of tech apprenticeships, you want apprentices to stick around after graduation. The problem is that Shopify generally can’t force employees to stay (companies hate suing over breach of contract for education subsidies). One work around is to pay a low salary during the training period. That’s exactly what Shopify is doing (160K over 4 years = 40K per year). This could be a cheap way of boosting Shopify’s workforce and reputation. Tech companies have high revenue per employee. If Big Tech follows suit with other apprenticeships, Shopify could be known as the company that made white collar apprenticeships a thing in the U.S. and Canada. The apprentice program would become less expensive for Shopify over time as it captures apprentices from other companies.
- peteretep 7y agoReminder that this exists, which is a Software Engineering MSc from a reasonably well-known uni, that you're meant to do while working: http://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/softeng/ http://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/softeng/ all-in cost was something like £25,000 for me including accommodation, and they're open minded about accepting people without undergraduate degrees. EDIT: happy to answer questions by email
- skrebbel 7y ago"reasonably well known", isn't Oxford considered one of the best universities of the world?
- plutosmoon 7y agoThat looks amazing. Do you know of any write-ups on the part-time MSc from students?
- exdsq 7y agoIt’s said to be a bit of a cash cow for the department
- LoSboccacc 7y agoany opportunity like these for someone looking to move in australia?
- erland 7y agoGreat idea, it's a shame that they had to add this 50/50 nonsense. I know a lot of guy that would kill for that opportunity.
- blahbhthrow3748 7y agoAnd I know a lot of women who have been successful graduates of the program, what's your point?
- d0100 7y ago"kill for the opportunity" and "successful graduate" seems pretty different If you keep upping the entry bar, the ones that would "kill" to enter have higher odds of entry. Being able to graduate is a much lower bar, so what's your point?
- erland 7y agoI suspect that they would not be if there would be an equal opportunity. Not giving people a chance just because of ideology is despicable. That's my point.
- blahbhthrow3748 7y agoLots of people don't have a chance. There's a fixed number of slots and many more qualified applicants.
- erland 7y agoThat's true. World is not a fair place. No point in making it more unequal though. Let just the best and more dedicated win.
- abdulmuhaimin 7y agoI dont understand these split of opportunity based on something(race/sex etc). Its more PR move than anything If people truly want equality, it shouldnt even be a factor. No prejudice. Just treat all as of us one thing, human being.
- brutus1213 7y agoKudos to Shopify! You are leading the way! I offhand mentioned a previous program they ran (letting people out of the field get an internship) to someone I knew, and it made a huge difference. Creating/sustaining jobs/incomes in this way is actually very cool in my books.
- jakubwaw 7y agoDoes having a degree matter for majority of developer roles? I've gone down the apprenticeship route (UK) and went into web development. Getting a degree would be very unlikely to affect my chances of getting a job (should I move away from freelancing), or a higher salary, not everywhere, but probably 9/10 places. Keen to hear other experiences and opinions
- big_chungus 7y agoWeb dev is different from others, but I think that it's not a huge help. Or at least, a comp sci degree isn't going to help too much. Web dev is more about presenting content than about "serious comp sci stuff". A comp sci degree is useful if you need to work a job where you have to remember which sub-type of trie is best for such and such data. That said, you can learn just fine without a degree. Much of what I learned, especially the stuff that most developers use, was before college. The biggest barrier is that many employers consider college a test of "not being a fruit loop", but if you've got work experience, that should help overcome the barrier.
- dangerface 7y ago> get a free CS degree Why? Learn stuff thats out of date from some one who has never don it. Even without the debt academia is pointless, just learn to learn.
- a-priori 7y ago"because the parents want it. I'm not joking, that's the actual reason." https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1216800493684580356 https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1216800493684580356
- alphakilo 7y agoIt's wonderful to see this on the front page. I'm currently a student at the Lassonde School of Engineering at York University studying software engineering and heavily involved in the school community. The Lassonde School of Engineering opened 8 years ago with a fervour for Innovation and Entrepreneurship. I suggest folks give the school a Google search as it has rapidly developed to become a phenomenonal environment with its own startup incubator and entrepreneurshi' degree with courses from VCs. I digress, but feel free to ask me any more questions about the school. The dev degree program started its first cohort last year actually and it now is in its second year. It is structured so students work 20 hours a week at Shopify and take 3 courses per semester at school. Students are required to work and go to school through the summer which allows them to complete the degree in the standard four years. My peers in the program have I said great things. One of the key parts of the program is how one switches between different teams to get a better understanding of the software engineering landscape. Moreover the mentorship is very helpful and not only developing your technical skills by yourself skills. One question that students and parents asked me a lot is if there is a requirement to work at Shopify following the completion of the program. Luckily Shopify has made it clear that they will not be expecting students to stay once they complete their degree, but it is my intuition that many people from the program will stay on after their large time investment into the Shopify ecosystem. Overall, I would have entered this program myself for it for engineering students as well. Sadly, the program is restricted to computer science students as the Canadian accreditation requirements for engineering are not fulfilled while in the dev degree program. Although people may say "why do you need a degree?", it is difficult to find a job without the qualification of showing your ability to complete post-secondary in a field of candidates that did. With initiatives such as Silicon Valley trip for students run by the Lassonde co-op Department, I am sure that lassonde will continue to innovate and engage students in meaningful ways beyond the traditional methods.
- greenie_beans 7y agoThis is cool. But very conflicting for me personally. Here I am, deciding whether to apply to the Mississippi Teacher's Corp, which would give me a free Master's degree while getting paid to teach. Probably like $35k per year. And then here is this program, which is very tempting to apply to, partly because of the salary. It should be the other way around. Teaching is so much more valuable than coding.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- i_haz_rabies 7y agoAs a somewhat weak rule, compensation seems to be inversely proportional to social value.
- greenie_beans 7y ago:(
- WrtCdEvrydy 7y agoNot to shill a book, but Bullshit Jobs goes into this... those 'jobs like teaching are FUN' therefore they don't get paid as much.
- reuseman 7y agoWait is this for Master's degree too?
- greenie_beans 7y agoMaster of Arts in Teaching. https://www.mtc.olemiss.edu/about-us https://www.mtc.olemiss.edu/about-us
- greenie_beans 7y agoOh. No. The DevDegree looks like a bachelor's degree
- 7y ago
- mwexler 7y agoHere is some history and background about why Shopify did this and the success they saw early on. https://engineering.shopify.com/blogs/engineering/dev-degree-a-big-bet-on-software-education https://engineering.shopify.com/blogs/engineering/dev-degree... Disclosure: recent hire at Shopify, not through this program. Just learned about it, actually today from HN. After mentioning it to my team, was pointed to this link and thought I'd share it here.
- SnowingXIV 7y agoThis looks really neat. I wish I had the foresight years ago to join something like this or even do a straight cs track to a large company. My path has been less linear. Finished college with an accounting degree then worked at two fortune 500 consulting companies. I spent my nights and weekends doing web development work on the side (even did a failed startup with a buddy). A full-time opportunity opened up from one of these gigs and I've been there since. Now I run all their applications, websites, IT, and digital advertising. Whenever I see programs like this pop up I'm always intrigued to supplement professional work with an academic mark in the hat as I know things could wind-down here and will be on a job search leaving me nervous as a 30 y/o developer whose has been working at small businesses (and not anything like FAANG). This is why I'll still pick up freelance work from time to time. For sanity about 2 years back, I did apply and went through a series of interviews and tests for a remote software engineering position at a hot bay area company. It came down between me and one other guy. They conducted additional interviews because it was quite close. I ended up getting beat out, the other guy had a few years on me.
- aiphex 7y agoAt my university there are a number of math requirements for the CS degree. A couple calculus courses, a couple linear algebra courses and a discrete math course. Each of them is the foundation for other CS courses, such as discrete math is for analysis of algorithms. Is this the case with these newer schools / approaches to becoming a software engineer? I for one really appreciate the math, but is it appreciated in industry? Curious to know.