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The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

353 points by tmitchell 8y ago

doitLP 8y ago
Here’s a really cool video breaking down exactly how Jackie sets up his stunt-action-comedy. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1PCtIaM_GQ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1PCtIaM_GQ One thing that was particular interesting to me is how the setup always starts with him at an extreme disadvantage: no shoes, tied to a chair, hanging upside down, etc. I never noticed it before and it’s exactly what makes his action so enjoyable to watch. (The YouTube Channel is called Every Frame a Painting and all the other videos are fascinating and very worth checking out.)
- crushcrashcrush 8y ago
  He’s also incredibly expressive, which to a western audience may come across as “cheesy” but I personally love it. Give Rush Hour a shot and I guarantee you’ll enjoy it.
  - ryanmercer 8y ago
    >He’s also incredibly expressive, which to a western audience may come across as “cheesy” but I personally love it. His heightened capacity for emoting is arguably as good of entertainment as his stunt skills.
  - 52-6F-62 8y ago
    Rush Hour 1 through 3 have long been some of my favourite movies! If we're getting into Jackie Chan movies, though, one cannot leave out Drunken Master
    - uep 8y ago
      Yes (to Drunken Master)! I just noticed this last weekend that it was on Netflix and re-watched it. After many years, I still really enjoy the movie. Another one of his that I really enjoyed was Who Am I, but I haven't seen it in probably a decade.
      - 52-6F-62 8y ago
        I'm not sure I've seen it. I'll have to give it a watch. I also really enjoyed his recent one with Pierce Brosnan— The Foreigner. It has a far more dramatic tone than the others, but it's great.
        uep 8y ago
        Just a warning, but with Who Am I, my love of the movie largely comes from the rooftop fight sequence. It has been long enough that I only vaguely remember a few parts of the movie outside of that sequence. Thanks for the tip on The Foreigner, I will definitely check it out. Not the same kind of movie (and not Jackie Chan), but Kung Fu Hustle is definitely worth a watch if you haven't seen it. I also always thought that Bjarne Stroustrup kind of looks like The Beast in Kung Fu Hustle (it's the hair and glasses). http://www.stroustrup.com/xBjarne2018.jpg.pagespeed.ic.hePTBHSpev.jpg http://www.stroustrup.com/xBjarne2018.jpg.pagespeed.ic.hePTB... https://cinema1544.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/the-beast.jpg https://cinema1544.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/the-beast.jpg
    - micah94 8y ago
      Don't forget about Police Story! I can still remember seeing that in a smokey Chinatown theater in NYC and being stunned by that mall scene at the end.
      - vgeek 8y ago
        Thunderbolt from the mid 90's is one of his less popular, but it was Fast and the Furious, but 5 years earlier. He loves Mitsubishi, they're in a lot of his films. Who Am I, First Strike, Police Stories, Armour of God, Mr. Nice Guy are all great, too.
      - rangibaby 8y ago
        Police Story and Chan's other 80s movies are the rare genuinely "all ages" entertainment (the only other thing I can think of off the top of my head is Spongebob). They're good for kids because they are funny and full of action without being grim or dark. They're easy to follow, even for young kids, because of the lack of shaky cam and fast cuts. They're good for adults because of all the crazy choreography and stunts. Police Story is definitely my favorite!
    - JohnBooty 8y ago
      A note of clarification: Drunken Master is pretty good! Drunken Master II (re-released in slightly edited form as "Legend of the Drunken Master" in the US) is the one that's typically regarded as a bona-fide classic masterpiece.
      - 52-6F-62 8y ago
        Thanks for clarifying! I had to look it up, but I'm definitely referring to the first one in this case. I don't even think I've seen the second one! Guess it's going on the list
        JohnBooty 8y ago
        Oh my lord you are in for such a treat. Enjoy it!
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - sirmarksalot 8y ago
        Just a note, "Legend of the Drunken Master" is more heavily edited than you may be aware. Here's a video illustrating some of the problems: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A1vMKS6jFg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A1vMKS6jFg I wouldn't recommend watching it. It's really missing a lot of the charm of the original.
  - kindatrue 8y ago
    I liked Rush Hour, but according to IMDB he's been quoted as saying those are some of his least favorite movies.
    - crushcrashcrush 8y ago
      Ah that’s disappointing. I hope he knows the first movie was a highlight of my movie-going childhood!
      - JohnBooty 8y ago
        In terms of martial arts action those movies are pale shadows of his earlier Hong Kong work. Partially because Chan is older in those movies and is a little less physically capable. But IMO mostly because of Hollywood's unfortunate style of directing fights and martial arts battles. Traditional Hong Kong martial arts movies use a lot of wide and long, unbroken shots. You can really see the performers performing these physical acts of skill and beauty -- you see their entire bodies, it's almost like watching performers on a stage. Which is of course Chan's background. In contrast, Western directors typically use a lot of fast, tight, jerky, almost seizure-inducing cuts. A closeup of a fist hitting a face. A closeup of an elbow hitting a knee. A closeup of a face showing somebody's reaction to the pain. Etc. etc etc. There's much less continuity. 98% of the scenes are probably shot by stunt/body doubles. It doesn't take a lot of talent for an actor to pull off a scene like that, at least not compared to the traditional HK style where the actors have had a lifetime of martial arts training. Of course, those are vast generalizations. You can name plenty of counterexamples from both schools!
        pimlottc 8y ago
        WRT your comments regarding framing/cutting techniques, the episode of “Every Frame a Painting” mentioned elsewhere in this discussion goes into this in depth and really demonstrates how it makes a big difference in the type of action that Jackie excels at. Highly recommended if you haven’t watched it before (along with the rest of the videos in the series).
  - burger_moon 8y ago
    That could be why Rush Hour was such a hit. Chris Tucker is also very expressive in everything he does so it was a good matchup with two great actors.
  - nickik 8y ago
    Rush Hour 1 is a fun movie, the others are meh. They are not even close to the quality of some of the Hong Kong movies. Also Tucker gets pretty old quickly. Rumble in the Bronx is an insane movie that is US based, better then Rush Hour.
- nicoburns 8y ago
  I read similar things about Mad Max: Fury Road. Basically that they did all the stunts for real, and then edit it with still camera shots, and with a real sense of rhythm. IMO that worked absolutely fantastically, and I hope other films catch on. https://www.provideocoalition.com/art-cut-margaret-sixel-editor-mad-max-fury-road/ https://www.provideocoalition.com/art-cut-margaret-sixel-edi...
  - rip_netrunner 8y ago
    loved the article. Appreciate the link
- jdietrich 8y ago
  The lack of respect Chan gets in the west is a travesty IMO. His fight choreography is rooted in the traditions Chinese opera while being constantly fresh, playful and imaginative. He shows absolute technical mastery, but there is always a sense of child-like joy underpinning that mastery. The fact that his films are often regarded as frivolous and lightweight says something profound about what is valued in our cultural milieu.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    Doesn't he do a lot of frivolous and light-hearted movies though -- I'm a huge fan. Take a movie like "Who am I", it's like Johnny English meets Drunken Master. "Kung Fu" films to me always have a notion of slapstick, even the beautiful ones like House of Flying Daggers; Chan's background in Opera I imagine helps to fulfill that element of slightly ludicrous spectacle (at least if Chinese opera has any similarity to its Western namesake). I mean Shanghai Noon, great film within its genre, but goofy as anything; actors doing those sorts of movies just aren't treated as serious actors I guess.
    - Fricken 8y ago
      I don't really count films he did after Rumble in the Bronx as part of his oeuvre, he effectively retired from doing the kind of physical performances that made him great after 1995. By the time he made his debut in Hollywood his body was a little too broken to keep up the routine.
    - jdietrich 8y ago
      You can be goofy and fun and make high art. Slapstick spectacle can also be profound. There's a certain po-faced affectation that is necessary to be called an artist. Being good isn't good enough; you also need to convincingly ape the norms of a self-appointed cultural elite. The disparity in esteem between pop and rock springs to mind. We have an ingrained sense that if a record appeals to 13-year-old girls, then it must on some level be inherently inferior to a record that appeals to middle-aged men, regardless of the actual sophistication of the music in question. A teenage boy learning to play guitar carries an entirely different set of cultural connotations and expectations than a teenage girl learning to sing, regardless of how much effort they each expend. The term "credibility" hides a deep vein of ugly bigotry.
- fhood 8y ago
  Nothing better than finding even more cool content in the comments. Thanks for the link. It put to words a bunch of things that annoy me about modern action movies.
the_af 8y ago
Interesting how difficult and rough Jackie Chan's childhood was. He certainly succeeded, but at what cost? This article reviews how Chan downplays the hardships he was forced to endure (e.g. being essentially sold by his parents as an indentured servant when he was seven years old, complete with beatings and dismal living conditions) and instead chooses to focus on the end result, his success as an adult.
- RankingMember 8y ago
  > He received almost no education, not even in the basics of reading, writing, and arithmetic, and when he first became rich he had trouble signing his own name on credit card receipts. (His memoir is “co-written” with a publicist.) This part really stuck out to me. He was treated like a single-purpose tool.
- netsharc 8y ago
  I suppose you'd have to ask him if he'd rather have lived a normal life (without the beatings and the stardom) or if given the choice, he'd pick the life he's lived again. At least he got to enjoy life being rich and famous, kids in Africa become slaves or child soldiers and end up dead.
  - the_af 8y ago
    We know the answer: Jackie thinks it was worth it. I'm unconvinced... as much as I like him and I'm glad he can enjoy his success. Yes, the children in Africa who become slaves or child soldiers and end up dead have it worse. I'm not sure what lesson we can draw from that :)
    - gf263 8y ago
      Very confused as to what you're trying to say
      - the_af 8y ago
        I don't think I'm trying to say something difficult. I'm replying to the post above mine: 1- "I suppose you'd have to ask him if he'd rather have lived a normal life": we don't need to ask Jackie Chan what he thinks, because he already answered in interviews: he thinks his life was worth it. That's sort of the point of the article. 2- "kids in Africa become slaves or child soldiers and end up dead.": yes, some kids have it worse than Jackie Chan's life. So?
vinceguidry 8y ago
The author doesn't want to treat Chan's insistence on his account being an inspirational one and just wants to see it as sad. I'm reminded of a Quora answer by a guy who loved fighting, one phrase he used stuck out at me. "Great fighters have to kind of like getting hit." You can't push your body to its very limits without getting injured. Planning and preparing for it is not sad, it's smart. Chan's account should be taken at face value. It is inspirational for all the reasons he thinks it is. I mean, sure, it would be way better if Hong Kong weren't the colonial hell-hole it was. Chan rose above that and made a noticeable dent in the world. If he could do it in the situation he grew up in, anyone can. As the Brits like to say, Chan and his story are exactly what it says on the tin. To say it's not demeans Chan and his life and his choices.
- maldusiecle 8y ago
  Man, believe whatever you like, but it's pretty obvious that there are a lot of people who were in Chan's miserable situation--indentured servitude, endless hours, extreme poverty--and worked hard and weren't able to become, you know, Jackie Chan. It sort of stands to reason that it has to be that way, too, for the whole system to work. Chan is able to be the celebrity that he is, specifically because there's only one of him; if there were dozens or hundreds of people like him, he wouldn't have the same kind of fame. Celebrity depends on singularity. It's absolute nonsense to say that "If he could do it...anyone can"; it's demeaning and cruel to the many people who were, like him, stuck in a terrible situation, but didn't have his good luck in getting out.
  - vinceguidry 8y ago
    It's not demeaning and cruel to his fellow countrymen. They are what sustain him. Chan is somewhat popular in the West, but he's a veritable god in the East, like Manny Pacquiao is to Filipinos. You are the one demeaning the people there. Chan is the one inspiring them. It's silly to think that everybody in Hong Kong is going to compare themselves to Jackie Chan and lament that they won't be able to do what he does. He's inspirational because he shows that you don't have to define yourself by your station in life and can change it. Chan is just the most visible symbol of it, but you can see similar stories all across the country. Your daughter getting inspired by princesses isn't cruel because she'll never be able to be a princess. She can become more like a particular princess she likes, adopting personality traits and learning to think like her.
jasonjei 8y ago
Jackie Chan, though, is an apologist for the Mainland government, and even suggested that Taiwan, perhaps (as of now) the only Chinese-speaking democracy, has “too much freedom.”
- tomxor 8y ago
  > is an apologist for the Mainland government Yes but doesn't any Chinese person have to be if they want to maintain any kind of ability to travel in China? _Especially_ if they are famous.
  - jasonjei 8y ago
    That might be true, but I think HN readers are not commonly aware that he is one. He once said in December 2012, that “Hong Kong is a ‘city of protest,’ suggesting that demonstrators' rights in Hong Kong should be limited. The same month, in an interview with Phoenix TV, Chan stated that the United States was the ‘most corrupt’ country in the world.” This is a man whose made plenty of his fortune in the US. Before we heap praise on Jackie Chan, I think it’s important to know his full background.
    - kkarakk 8y ago
      i'm all for "exposing" how people really think but China is a country that literally disappears people, high profile internationally famous people like fan bingbing, for not paying their taxes. judicial process is almost a non-entity there if you anger the government.do you think chan has a choice in anything he says? his choices are to toe the government line or never go back to his homeland. do you also criticize the chinese installed panchen lama for not speaking up against china?
      - jasonjei 8y ago
        He does have a choice—and he lives in Hong Kong. There are those Hong Kong citizens that have expressed their free rights yet are not able to enter the Mainland. Here’s the HK newspaper view on him: https://m.scmp.com/culture/books/article/2176919/why-hypocritical-jackie-chans-empty-confessions-deserve-no-sympathy https://m.scmp.com/culture/books/article/2176919/why-hypocri... This is about Jackie Chan. I’m afraid you’re presenting a strawmam’s argument with respect to what else the Mainland Chinese government has done—while you seem to be refuting my argument, you are presenting an argument that I didn’t present. I’m obviously fairly critical of the Chinese government. I’m reminded of this poem: ``First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a socialist. / Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a trade unionist. / Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. / Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.’’
vertline3 8y ago
We have this tendency to look at successful people and think we can imitate them and have their success. I see Bill Gates is always giving a list of his favorite books of the year. Sorry Bill, if I read your books, I won't be a billionaire. Well Jackie Chan as great, talented, funny as he is. No matter what, I will never be him. Survivor bias and luck play a large role beyond what hard work and pain alone do.
- darkerside 8y ago
  This attitude may be technically correct, but it's not very productive. Why emphasize your own lack of control over your life? It's certainly possible for it to become a self-fulfilling prophecy, even if the inverse is not true.
  - betenoire 8y ago
    Not productive in what sense? Knowing your limits let's you focus your energy in other ways and areas
    - darkerside 8y ago
      That's great advice. Especially if you get specific about the other ways and areas one an focus on. But what parent post said was, you'll never be a billionaire or literally Jackie Chan, so don't try. Seems (to me) like a waste of mental energy to even process that.
      - vertline3 8y ago
        No I did not say that you shouldn't try, but that doing what they do, don't expect that you will be them. It is cargo culting success
- diob 8y ago
  Right. A large part of success is definitely luck and random opportunity, but I will say that you still have to be prepared for those instances to take advantage of them(unless you have nepotism on your side, then you can coast to your heart's content). For us in the the lower / middle class, the best we can do is prepare as much as we can for the day we encounter luck or opportunity. No amount of preparation / commitment / training guarantees success, but we can't afford to be fatalistic about it. I do agree that we need to be more empathetic with those who haven't succeeded though. People tend to assume it's due to some personal fault rather than accounting for the luck / opportunity aspect. Humans tend to think that when they themselves fail it's because of outside forces they couldn't control, but when others fail it's because of internal forces they could have controlled.
goertzen 8y ago
The first paragraph does a great job of summarizing and contextualizing Jackie Chan's career. But the rest of the article seems to drunkenly wonder around bumping into rhetorical questions that don't lead anywhere other than the reporter believes that Jackie Chan didn't complain or rejoice enough in his hardships or successes. Ok, sure. I guess that's one opinion. But I'm kind of surprised that the reporter didn't have more to say than that.
- kzzzznot 8y ago
  Yes I thought the article was poorly written. Not really sure what angle the author was coming from
tunesmith 8y ago
"Chinese people need to be controlled, otherwise they will do whatever they want." Haha... wow, that circular reasoning is so tight it's almost not even a circle anymore. "Chinese people need to be controlled, otherwise they will not be controlled". I have a theory that all circular reasoning can be reduced down to a (probably faulty) axiom or assertion.
- SolaceQuantum 8y ago
  The reasoning is steeped in connotation that you may have missed. Might I suggest an alternate reasoning: From the view of an oppressor, oppression is necessary to protect the oppressed from being able to choose socially harmful behavior. In this view, oppressing someone is actually saving them.
- chaostheory 8y ago
  For the record, I strongly disagree with Jackie's opinion. It does need more context though. China is a low trust society that doesn't have a strong rule of law. What this translates into is fake medicine, fake food, newly built buildings and bridges that either fall apart or are falling apart, police and low level government officials who need bribes for mundane things and so on. Jackie mainly wants a stronger rule of law. (He's just wrong about accepting a government with unlimited power. eg he thinks protests are bad) Of course, you're not going to get all of this from someone who didn't receive a lot of formal education, speaking in the 3rd language that he learned, in a small sound bite.
  - wenc 8y ago
    > China is a low trust society that doesn't have a strong rule of law. What this translates into is fake medicine, fake food, newly built buildings and bridges that either fall apart or are falling apart, police and low level government officials who need bribes for mundane things and so on. I'm sure this is all true, but I'm curious, have you lived in China? What's your take on the lived experience in China? I just wanted to see this from different perspectives, because the United States has many parts that are perceived as hellholes in the abstract (like the city of Chicago where I live), but in reality daily life is quite normal and livable.
alexashka 8y ago
This is an incredibly disrespectful article. > He was, in effect, a walking slab of meat to be trotted out whenever a Peking opera production needed a singer or dancer or acrobat. These hyperboles, so full of off-putting judgements are completely unnecessary. It's almost as if the author is hoping to gain, by being as rude and sensationalistic as possible. Imagine if the author of this article actually met Jackie Chan - he'd crumble in shame if he has an iota of decency left in him/her. This article can be renamed 'the painful price of trying to be a journalist' - it'd be more accurate.
- l33tbro 8y ago
  Well Jackie Chan is not the most undeserving target. In past, he narrowly missed out on 'father of the year' after admitting to throwing his young child across a room (1). He was overlooked a second time when he disowned his illegitimate daughter over her sexuality. (1) https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/03/asia/jackie-chan-autobiography-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/03/asia/jackie-chan-autobiog...
satori99 8y ago
Jackie Chan, in addition to being a world famous film star, is also an Honorary Professor of Tourism and a teaching member of the faculty at Hong Kong Polytechnic University. I know this because he shares an office there with someone I know. I initially didn't believe it when I was told, but Wikipedia backs the story up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackie_Chan#Academic_career https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackie_Chan#Academic_career
Fricken 8y ago
When I was kid, before reality, I wanted to be a stuntman. I'd round up my friends to shoot little actions movies with my Grandpa's Sony hi-8. They were structured on flimsy narratives that only served to facilitate fist fights, chase sequences and opportunities for a big fall. To convince my friends to get up at 8:00 on a Saturday to shoot all day around the neighbourhood I always gave away the part of the hero so I was always the bad guy, sometimes several bad guys in different costumes, but I also let me do most the directing. I figured out how to assembly edit all in camera, and then add music and sound effects when transferring to VHS. Anyway, when I discovered Jackie Chan he rocked my world.
wiradikusuma 8y ago
The sentiment from people from his home country is mixed, esp. regarding his behavior. E.g. https://www.quora.com/Do-the-Chinese-like-Jackie-Chan https://www.quora.com/Do-the-Chinese-like-Jackie-Chan I'm still a fan though, but only for his movies.
madeuptempacct 8y ago
Finally read the article - the whole things reads like a rich guy making fun of a poor guy for even trying. "Yea, he made money, but he is still lower class, haw haw, pass the caviar." In reality, I think that's all an extension of the last paragraph, where the author projects his dislike of Chan's political views.

353 points by tmitchell 8y ago

Here’s a really cool video breaking down exactly how Jackie sets up his stunt-action-comedy. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1PCtIaM_GQ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1PCtIaM_GQ One thing that was particular interesting to me is how the setup always starts with him at an extreme disadvantage: no shoes, tied to a chair, hanging upside down, etc. I never noticed it before and it’s exactly what makes his action so enjoyable to watch. (The YouTube Channel is called Every Frame a Painting and all the other videos are fascinating and very worth checking out.)

crushcrashcrush 8y ago
He’s also incredibly expressive, which to a western audience may come across as “cheesy” but I personally love it. Give Rush Hour a shot and I guarantee you’ll enjoy it.
- ryanmercer 8y ago
  >He’s also incredibly expressive, which to a western audience may come across as “cheesy” but I personally love it. His heightened capacity for emoting is arguably as good of entertainment as his stunt skills.
- 52-6F-62 8y ago
  Rush Hour 1 through 3 have long been some of my favourite movies! If we're getting into Jackie Chan movies, though, one cannot leave out Drunken Master
  - uep 8y ago
    Yes (to Drunken Master)! I just noticed this last weekend that it was on Netflix and re-watched it. After many years, I still really enjoy the movie. Another one of his that I really enjoyed was Who Am I, but I haven't seen it in probably a decade.
    - 52-6F-62 8y ago
      I'm not sure I've seen it. I'll have to give it a watch. I also really enjoyed his recent one with Pierce Brosnan— The Foreigner. It has a far more dramatic tone than the others, but it's great.
      - uep 8y ago
        Just a warning, but with Who Am I, my love of the movie largely comes from the rooftop fight sequence. It has been long enough that I only vaguely remember a few parts of the movie outside of that sequence. Thanks for the tip on The Foreigner, I will definitely check it out. Not the same kind of movie (and not Jackie Chan), but Kung Fu Hustle is definitely worth a watch if you haven't seen it. I also always thought that Bjarne Stroustrup kind of looks like The Beast in Kung Fu Hustle (it's the hair and glasses). http://www.stroustrup.com/xBjarne2018.jpg.pagespeed.ic.hePTBHSpev.jpg http://www.stroustrup.com/xBjarne2018.jpg.pagespeed.ic.hePTB... https://cinema1544.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/the-beast.jpg https://cinema1544.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/the-beast.jpg
  - micah94 8y ago
    Don't forget about Police Story! I can still remember seeing that in a smokey Chinatown theater in NYC and being stunned by that mall scene at the end.
    - vgeek 8y ago
      Thunderbolt from the mid 90's is one of his less popular, but it was Fast and the Furious, but 5 years earlier. He loves Mitsubishi, they're in a lot of his films. Who Am I, First Strike, Police Stories, Armour of God, Mr. Nice Guy are all great, too.
    - rangibaby 8y ago
      Police Story and Chan's other 80s movies are the rare genuinely "all ages" entertainment (the only other thing I can think of off the top of my head is Spongebob). They're good for kids because they are funny and full of action without being grim or dark. They're easy to follow, even for young kids, because of the lack of shaky cam and fast cuts. They're good for adults because of all the crazy choreography and stunts. Police Story is definitely my favorite!
  - JohnBooty 8y ago
    A note of clarification: Drunken Master is pretty good! Drunken Master II (re-released in slightly edited form as "Legend of the Drunken Master" in the US) is the one that's typically regarded as a bona-fide classic masterpiece.
    - 52-6F-62 8y ago
      Thanks for clarifying! I had to look it up, but I'm definitely referring to the first one in this case. I don't even think I've seen the second one! Guess it's going on the list
      - JohnBooty 8y ago
        Oh my lord you are in for such a treat. Enjoy it!
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - sirmarksalot 8y ago
      Just a note, "Legend of the Drunken Master" is more heavily edited than you may be aware. Here's a video illustrating some of the problems: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A1vMKS6jFg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A1vMKS6jFg I wouldn't recommend watching it. It's really missing a lot of the charm of the original.
- kindatrue 8y ago
  I liked Rush Hour, but according to IMDB he's been quoted as saying those are some of his least favorite movies.
  - crushcrashcrush 8y ago
    Ah that’s disappointing. I hope he knows the first movie was a highlight of my movie-going childhood!
    - JohnBooty 8y ago
      In terms of martial arts action those movies are pale shadows of his earlier Hong Kong work. Partially because Chan is older in those movies and is a little less physically capable. But IMO mostly because of Hollywood's unfortunate style of directing fights and martial arts battles. Traditional Hong Kong martial arts movies use a lot of wide and long, unbroken shots. You can really see the performers performing these physical acts of skill and beauty -- you see their entire bodies, it's almost like watching performers on a stage. Which is of course Chan's background. In contrast, Western directors typically use a lot of fast, tight, jerky, almost seizure-inducing cuts. A closeup of a fist hitting a face. A closeup of an elbow hitting a knee. A closeup of a face showing somebody's reaction to the pain. Etc. etc etc. There's much less continuity. 98% of the scenes are probably shot by stunt/body doubles. It doesn't take a lot of talent for an actor to pull off a scene like that, at least not compared to the traditional HK style where the actors have had a lifetime of martial arts training. Of course, those are vast generalizations. You can name plenty of counterexamples from both schools!
      - pimlottc 8y ago
        WRT your comments regarding framing/cutting techniques, the episode of “Every Frame a Painting” mentioned elsewhere in this discussion goes into this in depth and really demonstrates how it makes a big difference in the type of action that Jackie excels at. Highly recommended if you haven’t watched it before (along with the rest of the videos in the series).
- burger_moon 8y ago
  That could be why Rush Hour was such a hit. Chris Tucker is also very expressive in everything he does so it was a good matchup with two great actors.
- nickik 8y ago
  Rush Hour 1 is a fun movie, the others are meh. They are not even close to the quality of some of the Hong Kong movies. Also Tucker gets pretty old quickly. Rumble in the Bronx is an insane movie that is US based, better then Rush Hour.
nicoburns 8y ago
I read similar things about Mad Max: Fury Road. Basically that they did all the stunts for real, and then edit it with still camera shots, and with a real sense of rhythm. IMO that worked absolutely fantastically, and I hope other films catch on. https://www.provideocoalition.com/art-cut-margaret-sixel-editor-mad-max-fury-road/ https://www.provideocoalition.com/art-cut-margaret-sixel-edi...
- rip_netrunner 8y ago
  loved the article. Appreciate the link
jdietrich 8y ago
The lack of respect Chan gets in the west is a travesty IMO. His fight choreography is rooted in the traditions Chinese opera while being constantly fresh, playful and imaginative. He shows absolute technical mastery, but there is always a sense of child-like joy underpinning that mastery. The fact that his films are often regarded as frivolous and lightweight says something profound about what is valued in our cultural milieu.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  Doesn't he do a lot of frivolous and light-hearted movies though -- I'm a huge fan. Take a movie like "Who am I", it's like Johnny English meets Drunken Master. "Kung Fu" films to me always have a notion of slapstick, even the beautiful ones like House of Flying Daggers; Chan's background in Opera I imagine helps to fulfill that element of slightly ludicrous spectacle (at least if Chinese opera has any similarity to its Western namesake). I mean Shanghai Noon, great film within its genre, but goofy as anything; actors doing those sorts of movies just aren't treated as serious actors I guess.
  - Fricken 8y ago
    I don't really count films he did after Rumble in the Bronx as part of his oeuvre, he effectively retired from doing the kind of physical performances that made him great after 1995. By the time he made his debut in Hollywood his body was a little too broken to keep up the routine.
  - jdietrich 8y ago
    You can be goofy and fun and make high art. Slapstick spectacle can also be profound. There's a certain po-faced affectation that is necessary to be called an artist. Being good isn't good enough; you also need to convincingly ape the norms of a self-appointed cultural elite. The disparity in esteem between pop and rock springs to mind. We have an ingrained sense that if a record appeals to 13-year-old girls, then it must on some level be inherently inferior to a record that appeals to middle-aged men, regardless of the actual sophistication of the music in question. A teenage boy learning to play guitar carries an entirely different set of cultural connotations and expectations than a teenage girl learning to sing, regardless of how much effort they each expend. The term "credibility" hides a deep vein of ugly bigotry.
fhood 8y ago
Nothing better than finding even more cool content in the comments. Thanks for the link. It put to words a bunch of things that annoy me about modern action movies.

the_af 8y ago

Interesting how difficult and rough Jackie Chan's childhood was. He certainly succeeded, but at what cost? This article reviews how Chan downplays the hardships he was forced to endure (e.g. being essentially sold by his parents as an indentured servant when he was seven years old, complete with beatings and dismal living conditions) and instead chooses to focus on the end result, his success as an adult.

RankingMember 8y ago
> He received almost no education, not even in the basics of reading, writing, and arithmetic, and when he first became rich he had trouble signing his own name on credit card receipts. (His memoir is “co-written” with a publicist.) This part really stuck out to me. He was treated like a single-purpose tool.
netsharc 8y ago
I suppose you'd have to ask him if he'd rather have lived a normal life (without the beatings and the stardom) or if given the choice, he'd pick the life he's lived again. At least he got to enjoy life being rich and famous, kids in Africa become slaves or child soldiers and end up dead.
- the_af 8y ago
  We know the answer: Jackie thinks it was worth it. I'm unconvinced... as much as I like him and I'm glad he can enjoy his success. Yes, the children in Africa who become slaves or child soldiers and end up dead have it worse. I'm not sure what lesson we can draw from that :)
  - gf263 8y ago
    Very confused as to what you're trying to say
    - the_af 8y ago
      I don't think I'm trying to say something difficult. I'm replying to the post above mine: 1- "I suppose you'd have to ask him if he'd rather have lived a normal life": we don't need to ask Jackie Chan what he thinks, because he already answered in interviews: he thinks his life was worth it. That's sort of the point of the article. 2- "kids in Africa become slaves or child soldiers and end up dead.": yes, some kids have it worse than Jackie Chan's life. So?

vinceguidry 8y ago

The author doesn't want to treat Chan's insistence on his account being an inspirational one and just wants to see it as sad. I'm reminded of a Quora answer by a guy who loved fighting, one phrase he used stuck out at me. "Great fighters have to kind of like getting hit." You can't push your body to its very limits without getting injured. Planning and preparing for it is not sad, it's smart. Chan's account should be taken at face value. It is inspirational for all the reasons he thinks it is. I mean, sure, it would be way better if Hong Kong weren't the colonial hell-hole it was. Chan rose above that and made a noticeable dent in the world. If he could do it in the situation he grew up in, anyone can. As the Brits like to say, Chan and his story are exactly what it says on the tin. To say it's not demeans Chan and his life and his choices.

maldusiecle 8y ago
Man, believe whatever you like, but it's pretty obvious that there are a lot of people who were in Chan's miserable situation--indentured servitude, endless hours, extreme poverty--and worked hard and weren't able to become, you know, Jackie Chan. It sort of stands to reason that it has to be that way, too, for the whole system to work. Chan is able to be the celebrity that he is, specifically because there's only one of him; if there were dozens or hundreds of people like him, he wouldn't have the same kind of fame. Celebrity depends on singularity. It's absolute nonsense to say that "If he could do it...anyone can"; it's demeaning and cruel to the many people who were, like him, stuck in a terrible situation, but didn't have his good luck in getting out.
- vinceguidry 8y ago
  It's not demeaning and cruel to his fellow countrymen. They are what sustain him. Chan is somewhat popular in the West, but he's a veritable god in the East, like Manny Pacquiao is to Filipinos. You are the one demeaning the people there. Chan is the one inspiring them. It's silly to think that everybody in Hong Kong is going to compare themselves to Jackie Chan and lament that they won't be able to do what he does. He's inspirational because he shows that you don't have to define yourself by your station in life and can change it. Chan is just the most visible symbol of it, but you can see similar stories all across the country. Your daughter getting inspired by princesses isn't cruel because she'll never be able to be a princess. She can become more like a particular princess she likes, adopting personality traits and learning to think like her.

jasonjei 8y ago

Jackie Chan, though, is an apologist for the Mainland government, and even suggested that Taiwan, perhaps (as of now) the only Chinese-speaking democracy, has “too much freedom.”

tomxor 8y ago
> is an apologist for the Mainland government Yes but doesn't any Chinese person have to be if they want to maintain any kind of ability to travel in China? _Especially_ if they are famous.
- jasonjei 8y ago
  That might be true, but I think HN readers are not commonly aware that he is one. He once said in December 2012, that “Hong Kong is a ‘city of protest,’ suggesting that demonstrators' rights in Hong Kong should be limited. The same month, in an interview with Phoenix TV, Chan stated that the United States was the ‘most corrupt’ country in the world.” This is a man whose made plenty of his fortune in the US. Before we heap praise on Jackie Chan, I think it’s important to know his full background.
  - kkarakk 8y ago
    i'm all for "exposing" how people really think but China is a country that literally disappears people, high profile internationally famous people like fan bingbing, for not paying their taxes. judicial process is almost a non-entity there if you anger the government.do you think chan has a choice in anything he says? his choices are to toe the government line or never go back to his homeland. do you also criticize the chinese installed panchen lama for not speaking up against china?
    - jasonjei 8y ago
      He does have a choice—and he lives in Hong Kong. There are those Hong Kong citizens that have expressed their free rights yet are not able to enter the Mainland. Here’s the HK newspaper view on him: https://m.scmp.com/culture/books/article/2176919/why-hypocritical-jackie-chans-empty-confessions-deserve-no-sympathy https://m.scmp.com/culture/books/article/2176919/why-hypocri... This is about Jackie Chan. I’m afraid you’re presenting a strawmam’s argument with respect to what else the Mainland Chinese government has done—while you seem to be refuting my argument, you are presenting an argument that I didn’t present. I’m obviously fairly critical of the Chinese government. I’m reminded of this poem: ``First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a socialist. / Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a trade unionist. / Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. / Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.’’

vertline3 8y ago

We have this tendency to look at successful people and think we can imitate them and have their success. I see Bill Gates is always giving a list of his favorite books of the year. Sorry Bill, if I read your books, I won't be a billionaire. Well Jackie Chan as great, talented, funny as he is. No matter what, I will never be him. Survivor bias and luck play a large role beyond what hard work and pain alone do.

darkerside 8y ago
This attitude may be technically correct, but it's not very productive. Why emphasize your own lack of control over your life? It's certainly possible for it to become a self-fulfilling prophecy, even if the inverse is not true.
- betenoire 8y ago
  Not productive in what sense? Knowing your limits let's you focus your energy in other ways and areas
  - darkerside 8y ago
    That's great advice. Especially if you get specific about the other ways and areas one an focus on. But what parent post said was, you'll never be a billionaire or literally Jackie Chan, so don't try. Seems (to me) like a waste of mental energy to even process that.
    - vertline3 8y ago
      No I did not say that you shouldn't try, but that doing what they do, don't expect that you will be them. It is cargo culting success
diob 8y ago
Right. A large part of success is definitely luck and random opportunity, but I will say that you still have to be prepared for those instances to take advantage of them(unless you have nepotism on your side, then you can coast to your heart's content). For us in the the lower / middle class, the best we can do is prepare as much as we can for the day we encounter luck or opportunity. No amount of preparation / commitment / training guarantees success, but we can't afford to be fatalistic about it. I do agree that we need to be more empathetic with those who haven't succeeded though. People tend to assume it's due to some personal fault rather than accounting for the luck / opportunity aspect. Humans tend to think that when they themselves fail it's because of outside forces they couldn't control, but when others fail it's because of internal forces they could have controlled.

goertzen 8y ago

The first paragraph does a great job of summarizing and contextualizing Jackie Chan's career. But the rest of the article seems to drunkenly wonder around bumping into rhetorical questions that don't lead anywhere other than the reporter believes that Jackie Chan didn't complain or rejoice enough in his hardships or successes. Ok, sure. I guess that's one opinion. But I'm kind of surprised that the reporter didn't have more to say than that.

kzzzznot 8y ago
Yes I thought the article was poorly written. Not really sure what angle the author was coming from

tunesmith 8y ago

"Chinese people need to be controlled, otherwise they will do whatever they want." Haha... wow, that circular reasoning is so tight it's almost not even a circle anymore. "Chinese people need to be controlled, otherwise they will not be controlled". I have a theory that all circular reasoning can be reduced down to a (probably faulty) axiom or assertion.

SolaceQuantum 8y ago
The reasoning is steeped in connotation that you may have missed. Might I suggest an alternate reasoning: From the view of an oppressor, oppression is necessary to protect the oppressed from being able to choose socially harmful behavior. In this view, oppressing someone is actually saving them.
chaostheory 8y ago
For the record, I strongly disagree with Jackie's opinion. It does need more context though. China is a low trust society that doesn't have a strong rule of law. What this translates into is fake medicine, fake food, newly built buildings and bridges that either fall apart or are falling apart, police and low level government officials who need bribes for mundane things and so on. Jackie mainly wants a stronger rule of law. (He's just wrong about accepting a government with unlimited power. eg he thinks protests are bad) Of course, you're not going to get all of this from someone who didn't receive a lot of formal education, speaking in the 3rd language that he learned, in a small sound bite.
- wenc 8y ago
  > China is a low trust society that doesn't have a strong rule of law. What this translates into is fake medicine, fake food, newly built buildings and bridges that either fall apart or are falling apart, police and low level government officials who need bribes for mundane things and so on. I'm sure this is all true, but I'm curious, have you lived in China? What's your take on the lived experience in China? I just wanted to see this from different perspectives, because the United States has many parts that are perceived as hellholes in the abstract (like the city of Chicago where I live), but in reality daily life is quite normal and livable.

alexashka 8y ago

This is an incredibly disrespectful article. > He was, in effect, a walking slab of meat to be trotted out whenever a Peking opera production needed a singer or dancer or acrobat. These hyperboles, so full of off-putting judgements are completely unnecessary. It's almost as if the author is hoping to gain, by being as rude and sensationalistic as possible. Imagine if the author of this article actually met Jackie Chan - he'd crumble in shame if he has an iota of decency left in him/her. This article can be renamed 'the painful price of trying to be a journalist' - it'd be more accurate.

l33tbro 8y ago
Well Jackie Chan is not the most undeserving target. In past, he narrowly missed out on 'father of the year' after admitting to throwing his young child across a room (1). He was overlooked a second time when he disowned his illegitimate daughter over her sexuality. (1) https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/03/asia/jackie-chan-autobiography-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/03/asia/jackie-chan-autobiog...

satori99 8y ago

Jackie Chan, in addition to being a world famous film star, is also an Honorary Professor of Tourism and a teaching member of the faculty at Hong Kong Polytechnic University. I know this because he shares an office there with someone I know. I initially didn't believe it when I was told, but Wikipedia backs the story up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackie_Chan#Academic_career https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackie_Chan#Academic_career

Fricken 8y ago

When I was kid, before reality, I wanted to be a stuntman. I'd round up my friends to shoot little actions movies with my Grandpa's Sony hi-8. They were structured on flimsy narratives that only served to facilitate fist fights, chase sequences and opportunities for a big fall. To convince my friends to get up at 8:00 on a Saturday to shoot all day around the neighbourhood I always gave away the part of the hero so I was always the bad guy, sometimes several bad guys in different costumes, but I also let me do most the directing. I figured out how to assembly edit all in camera, and then add music and sound effects when transferring to VHS. Anyway, when I discovered Jackie Chan he rocked my world.

wiradikusuma 8y ago

The sentiment from people from his home country is mixed, esp. regarding his behavior. E.g. https://www.quora.com/Do-the-Chinese-like-Jackie-Chan https://www.quora.com/Do-the-Chinese-like-Jackie-Chan I'm still a fan though, but only for his movies.

madeuptempacct 8y ago

Finally read the article - the whole things reads like a rich guy making fun of a poor guy for even trying. "Yea, he made money, but he is still lower class, haw haw, pass the caviar." In reality, I think that's all an extension of the last paragraph, where the author projects his dislike of Chan's political views.