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Burner Phone

317 points by rubyrescue 13y ago

rubyrescue 13y ago
Needs to be payable in bitcoin?
- rdegges 13y ago
  One of the product creators here -- we're working on this :) We ended up launching the site today (a week earlier than expected), due to the press on the topic. We'll have bitcoin support by tomorrow.
jgalt212 13y ago
I think it's still better to walk into a random Walgreen's and purchase a burner there with cash.
- rdegges 13y ago
  Hey, one of the creators here -- I wrote about this in another thread, but here's why we think we're better than physical stores: - You can order the product online without making a physical appearance anywhere. - Many of the prepaid cell phones in physical stores come with the SIM chips activated -- so the phone's location has already been broadcasted to cell towers and is pre-registered, making it slightly less anonymous for the end user. - We're going to be accepting bitcoin in the near future (we're finishing that integration now), so we hope to compete with cash purchases in that regard. - You can recycle these phones like you would normal phones. - We piggyback off a ton of different US carriers -- so as you move around you'll be swapping between various carriers in your region.
  - gburt 13y ago
    Still doesn't deal with the fact I have to give you my address...
- nja 13y ago
  Then you're on the security camera footage. How would you avoid that?
  - eddieroger 13y ago
    Hat and sunglasses? It sounds cliche, but the prosecution has the burden of proof, and if they can't make out your facial features or hair, and you don't arrive on a traceable mode of transportation (like, a bus would work), then it could have been anyone.
    - Terretta 13y ago
      See sibling comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5841187 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5841187
- Terretta 13y ago
  The the "strip search prank call" suspect (fictionalized in the recent movie Compliance) was located through video footage of him purchasing "anonymous" phone cards with cash: Learning that the call had been made with an AT&T calling card... they used the serial number of the calling card used to make the call, and learned that the card had come from a different [Panama City] Wal-Mart store than the card used for the Massachusetts calls. Using Wal-Mart's records of the second store, the cash register, and time of the purchase of that card, the police were able to find surveillance camera video of the transaction. Unlike the Massachusetts investigation, which had gone cold when surveillance video failed to show the purchaser because the cameras were trained on the parking lot and not the registers, the cameras at the particular store where the card used in the Mount Washington call was purchased were trained on the cashiers. The buyer in the video was wearing a correctional officer's uniform for the private security firm Corrections Corporation of America. Video and stills from both Wal-Marts were compared and the same man was seen entering and exiting the Wal-Mart at the time of the earlier purchase. The police used this footage to produce a front-and-back composite image of the suspect, and subsequent queries to the private correctional company's human resources department led to the identification of the buyer as David R. Stewart. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strip_search_prank_call_scam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strip_search_prank_call_scam
  - jgalt212 13y ago
    I'm sure there are burner retailers that don't have security cameras on 24/7 like Wal Mart. Or even if they do, they may recycle their tapes more quickly than Wal Mar would. Buy some burners now--wait six months until activating/using.
  - skaevola 13y ago
    He was also acquitted of all charges due to lack of evidence.
tocomment 13y ago
Great idea! Thanks for making this. So what happens after 30 days, is there a way to recharge the phone minutes?
- rdegges 13y ago
  Thanks! After 30 days, you can purchase a new SIM chip from us directly if you'd like -- but the existing SIM chip will be completely unusable. Right now our site only sells the phone + chip together, but we can sell both the hardware phone and SIM chips separately as well (3 day, 7 day, 14 day, and 30 day SIM chips). Due to our early launch (this is our MVP), we don't have those advertised on the website yet (although, if you email us, we can arrange something).
  - josscrowcroft 13y ago
    I recommend maybe doing a deal, phone + multiple SIM cards ($x each per SIM) Then we could order in bulk, use a temporary address, and have enough for a year's anonymous talking without needing to make another order..
tocomment 13y ago
Who did your web design? I love it.
- citizens 13y ago
  http://themeforest.net/item/kameleon-premium-business-product-template/135337?WT.ac=portfolio_thumb&WT.seg_1=portfolio_thumb&WT.z_author=ChrisMooney http://themeforest.net/item/kameleon-premium-business-produc...
fatbat 13y ago
Is it biodegradable?
drglitch 13y ago
So what happens when the government (or IRS) persuades you to not destroy transaction logs with a $5 wrench? http://xkcd.com/538&#x2F http://xkcd.com/538/
- rdegges 13y ago
  We're committed to this product, not only for our users, but also for ourselves. We value our privacy HIGHLY, and wouldn't be open to selling out. We'd much rather just close down the company than destroy our core principles.
  - rolleiflex 13y ago
    If there were some sort of a dead man's switch in your service ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_man's_switch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_man's_switch ), this would be a lot more believable.
    - rdegges 13y ago
      This is really interesting -- looking into this now.
    - cakeface 13y ago
      I'm confused with how a dead man's switch would be useful in this scenario. If the company is persuaded to keep the transaction logs linking sim cards/phones and credit card numbers/addresses then how would we know? I don't see that as being fixed by having a dead man's switch.
      - bap 13y ago
        At that level of 'paranoia' / privacy concern you might as assume this is an elaborate honey-pot. An unlikely scenario but certainly the safest assumption from a privacy perspective.
  - cunac 13y ago
    Churchill: "Madam, would you sleep with me for five million pounds?" Socialite: "My goodness, Mr. Churchill... Well, I suppose... we would have to discuss terms, of course... " Churchill: "Would you sleep with me for five pounds?" Socialite: "Mr. Churchill, what kind of woman do you think I am?!" Churchill: "Madam, we've already established that. Now we are haggling about the price” Just negotiate in opposite direction :-)
rdegges 13y ago
Hey all, I'm one of the creators of BurnerPhone, and just wanted to leave a comment with a few facts about the product. We weren't really planning on launching this thing so quickly (we planned on making improvements to the site, etc. and launching in the next couple of weeks) -- but since all the press about the NSA / phone stuff came out it seemed like a good time to put our MVP online. Anyhow, we're basically trying to provide our users with a secure-as-possible communication device that allows them to remain as anonymous as possible. Yes -- the government can definitely collect call data and SMS data, but by using different devices and SIM cards (phone numbers) you can abstract away all but the most difficult to track details: your voice, your writing style (sms messages). Using a BurnerPhone allows you to make phone calls and send SMS messages that won't be linked back to your by your telco billing records. In regards to how we work: - These phones come with unlimited talk and text for 30 days, nationwide coverage. - We piggyback off of tons of US carriers, so depending on where you're located, you'll be connected to a different cellular network. - You can recycle these phones (we have a lot of plans with this in the future). I'd love to get some feedback from you guys, really respect HN and your opinions.
- axus 13y ago
  Sounds great! Doesn't a shipping record from BurnerPhone's warehouse to John Doe's address kind of spell things out, though?
  - rdegges 13y ago
    We don't keep these records -- after we ship we destroy it. The USPS would have records for this sort of thing, of course, but you could also have items shipped to PO Boxes, places that offer greater anonymity, etc. Furthermore, it's very unlikely that within 30 days of usage you'd be tracked down / monitored and have records queried like that. It's definitely not a perfect system, but we're working on it :)
    - axus 13y ago
      Oh, a data plan would probably make a killer feature. Not sure how you would deal with people doing "things that are rightfully illegal" with it, though.
steveinator 13y ago
Two bullet points from the site: - Unlimited talk and text for 30 days. - 16 hour talk time. I'm confused. Which is it?
- rdegges 13y ago
  16 hour talk time is the amount of battery life you'll have if you're on the phone for 16 hours nonstop talking. You get 30 days of unlimited talk / text, so if you talk for more than 16 hours on the phone you'll need to recharge using the charging cord that comes with the phone. Sorry for the confusion there.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- ggoodale 13y ago
  The 16 hour talk time is in reference to the battery life of the phone, I'm guessing (the next bullet references 30 days' standby time).
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
bradleyland 13y ago
Anything but cash/bitcoin leaves too much of a trail. Just because you destroy your records doesn't mean your merchant bank does. Nor does it mean my bank will.
- rdegges 13y ago
  We're adding bitcoin right now (will be available in the next day). We launched this early due to press on the subject, which is why it's not as polished as we'd like it to be =/
  - elliottcarlson 13y ago
    I would add a note about that now so people know it is coming and you don't lose a potential customer because they saw the site today and had the same opinion of the parent comment.
  - anaptdemise 13y ago
    "We launched this early due to press on the subject" So prematurely launching an incomplete and unvetted security/anonymity product to profiteer from momentary spikes in hysteria and paranoia is disingenuous at best. Besides all of the issues of payment, shipping, trust, legality, etc. that have already been raised, what is your companies qualifications to provide for secure/anonymous service?
- CrazedGeek 13y ago
  How much of a trail do prepaid cards leave? (I honestly have no idea.)
  - arkades 13y ago
    As much as any normal credit card. They're linked to your social security number.
    - runako 13y ago
      Not all the time. If you buy a prepaid card at e.g. Target, they do not collect your SSN or IIRC any identifying information unless you opt to register the card. You might choose the register the card to replace in case of theft.
chatmasta 13y ago
Where should we ship this to?
steeve 13y ago
Sorry to say but you still have to pay by credit card (huge trail), and even if you use bitcoin, you still have to have the phone delivered somewhere, and to someone.
- rdegges 13y ago
  That's correct -- it's definitely not perfect, but we're working on it. One of the things to keep in mind, however, is that even if you order this phone and use it, it's highly unlikely that any organization will be able to track your phone within a 30 day period -- and even if they do, and they realize the phone is a BurnerPhone (unlikely), if they come talk to us we have no records of which phone was sent where, or even where things are shipped. They'd have to query the USPS, and then they'd have to speculate as to which phone went to the person in question.
  - natrius 13y ago
    What happens when you get a National Security Letter that demands both longer data retention and your silence?
- shortly 13y ago
  it's, um, not illegal to buy a phone?
refurb 13y ago
How does this work? I thought the gov't required identifying information to be gathered when selling a cellular phone? What are the regulations? If the gov't wants to track down the owner of a phone, what do you do? Just say that you don't have that information?
- rdegges 13y ago
  Correct -- we literally keep no information here, so it's impossible for us to give information away.
  - lisper 13y ago
    But we have to take your word for that, right? How do we know you're not a front for an NSA sting operation? (Feel free to treat that as a rhetorical question :-)
  - refurb 13y ago
    OK, but I wonder, are you breaking any laws? I see two possible outcomes of this business model: 1. The gov't catches wind, demands you keep proper records and you say "no" so they shut you down. 2. The gov't comes to you asking for identifying information for a customer, you say "no" and they shut you down. I honestly don't know that much about it, so I can't claim that these two are the only possible outcomes. Can you provide more details? What are the regulations? Do you have a plan if the gov't comes knocking?
nikcub 13y ago
Why doesn't someone just built a Tor hidden service that is an interface to the Twilio (or similar) API? Sign up with Bitcoin, get a phone number and then send/receive SMS and send/receive calls using DAP/getUserMedia (html5 mic + audio) in a web browser. Using a physical cell phone still leaves a trace of the purchase, shipping, physical call location, cell site pings, etc. Plus in a lot of jurisdictions it is now a legal requirement to verify identity and adress with issuing phone numbers. Using a Tor hidden service (+VPN, etc.) I could be anybody anywhere in the world. Less bits figured out. edit: apologies if this is hijacking the thread
- RaphiePS 13y ago
  Twilio even has an in-browser VoIP client: http://www.twilio.com/client http://www.twilio.com/client
- foobarqux 13y ago
  Latency would make voice impractical.
  - millerm 13y ago
    In this case, wouldn't it be acceptable? I mean, if we stay in the context of a burner and security is the main feature, would it matter so much if it was like basically talking on a half-duplex voice call? Again, if the main goal is security and anonymity, would it matter so much if the conversation wasn't as fluid as a 'regular' call?
  - BHSPitMonkey 13y ago
    Maybe make it walkie-talkie style, like those old Nextel phones?
  - AJ007 13y ago
    TorFone estimates 3-4 seconds of latency. Usable, but not practical.
- yolesaber 13y ago
  It doesn't seem as though Twilio accepts Bitcoins. In this case, would it be that whoever is running the Tor hidden service would have to purchase the account themselves and their reimbursement would be BTC?
jcromartie 13y ago
> Every time you make a purchase we'll package and ship your order, then destroy all transaction records in our system. We make it impossible to give or share your information with anyone. Come on. There is absolutely no way you can convince anybody of this fact. It is impossible (and I mean this in the mathematical sense) to prove that you have no record of how it was purchased or where the phone went.
- joshuahedlund 13y ago
  Don't some kind of minimal transaction records generally need to be kept for tax purposes?
- rz2k 13y ago
  Since all mail has to be sorted to reach its destination, and there's little reason to expect that shipper and recipient data is given an expectation of privacy it probably does not even matter whether the company keeps records. I suppose it is safe to assume that it would be unknown which SIM card is inside of the package, but having a list of recipients in a given area code and merely noticing when SIM cards came online in that area would be somewhat of a give away. It seems like the phone would just encourage anyone performing surveillance that you are more likely to be communicating something they'd find interesting, and therefore they might spend more resources on looking at these customers. I think it serves the public good when more people communicate in ways that can not be traced or listened in on, but I don't think it serves specific customers of this service if they have concerns about their own anonymity, and might be doing things like disclosing information about official corruption.
rdegges 13y ago
Damn, it looks like this article just got banned from the front page of HN. =/
- cakeface 13y ago
  I still see it on the front page.
nvr219 13y ago
What, no sign in with facebook button?
pkulak 13y ago
If you need to coordinate your criminal activities all The Wire-like, why not just use some form of encrypted communication using the phone you already have? Maybe just get one for criminal activity only to be extra safe? Aren't all these problems solved by some 2048-bit encryption? I guess the phone company can see which IP you're making a connection too, but that doesn't seem like much. Why do we have to waste this much perfectly good hardware just to be anonymous?
- scott_karana 13y ago
  The timing of an attack tied to your identity can be really damaging.
- socillion 13y ago
  One good reason to use a different phone is geolocation data (determined from which cell towers you connect to) which is classified as "metadata" and potentially stored indefinitely. If your cell is turned on, your phone company knows where you are.
- nitrogen 13y ago
  I guess the phone company can see which IP you're making a connection too, but that doesn't seem like much. It may not seem like much, but it's actually everything. Social network analysis gives a significant amount of information about peoples' activities, even if those activities themselves are encrypted.
CanSpice 13y ago
The government said "trust us" too. I'm not entirely sure why anybody who wants to buy an untraceable phone would go to a website run by an unknown person to buy one. There are so many ways that this could go wrong for the phone purchaser. I'm thinking either this is a spoof site where in a week's time you'll just say "Ha! Look at all this private information you just gave a complete stranger!" or it's a government-run honeypot.
- rdegges 13y ago
  Not sure what I can do to prove this to you since we just launched and don't have much of a history, but I'm happy to answer any questions. I'm a programmer at a telephone company currently, and have worked in the telco industry for a while now. I have no government affiliations at all.
  - monkeynotes 13y ago
    > I have no government affiliations at all. Nice try CIA ops.
    - dsl 13y ago
      It would be the FBI, actually.
  - AsymetricCom 13y ago
    What chipset do you use to manage baseband communications? Do you implement any Trusted Computing standards? Can you tell us anything about the hardware architecture?
- masukomi 13y ago
  That was my thought too. If i'm so concerned about security there is no way I'm going to trust a web site like this. Even if we give rdegges the benefit of the doubt and say he actually is, there's no way to know that 2 weeks from now the govt doesn't hijack / buy the site, OR that they don't just start tailing these guys on their trips to the post office. Great way to find people with a better-than-average likelyhood of being up to no good.
coherentpony 13y ago
Do all the phones look the same? Because if so, "If you'd like to recycle your Burner when you're done using it, just throw it into any cell phone disposal box (these can usually be found at office supply stores)." Ummmm.
marcamillion 13y ago
I know this has been said before....but I just couldn't help but chuckle at the irony of a "completely anonymous" phone, only able to be bought with a credit card :|
- rdegges 13y ago
  This is 100% due to us launching earlier than expected (with all the press about the NSA stuff). We're implementing bitcoin purchasing right now, will have it ready by tomorrow. Sorry for the inconvenience =/ I realize it's not perfect, but we're working on it ^^
  - marcamillion 13y ago
    I know...you guys made a good call. Launching in the midst of this storm is very clever. I wish you all the best!
- rdegges 13y ago
  This is 100% due to us launching earlier than expected (with all the press about the NSA stuff). We're implementing bitcoin purchasing right now, will have it ready by tomorrow. Sorry for the inconvenience =/ I realize it's not perfect, but we're working on it ^^
- pyre 13y ago
  Pre-paid credit card bought with cash?
guyht 13y ago
Whats your moral stance on your business? There are a lot of legitimate uses for your product, but its also (for obvious reasons) very attractive to people involved in criminal activities. Will you be putting any measures in place to counteract this? For example, lets say you were regularly getting orders to a foreign country which is known to be a hot spot for terrorism. Then, you have the police knocking on your door, because there has been a major terror threat in a US city, and they need to track the terrorists phones. I can guess the answer, but just want to make the point there are usually 2 sides to an anonymous service like this.
- obviouslygreen 13y ago
  This just isn't a useful question. I can understand where it comes from, but "this could be used for bad things" puts it in exactly the same camp as cash, cars, anything heavy enough to throw at someone, and pretty much... well, everything. If the service were "weapon specifically designed to kill large Rhinoceri and then instantly sever their horns" or "phone that will encrypt and forward only narcotic-trafficking-related conversations," this point would be valid.
slg 13y ago
Can someone provide a few examples of legal use cases for this type of thing? I understand people who want to protect their personal information, but these are going way out of their way to actively conceal their personal information. I just don't know why that would be a priority unless you are trying to hide something. I am not usually in the "you have nothing to fear unless you are hiding something" camp, but these seem pretty extreme.
- ricardobeat 13y ago
  Does it still sound "pretty extreme" after the news on PRISM?
  - slg 13y ago
    Yes. The answer to this scandal is not making it technically harder for the government to get our information. I would compare it to DRM/piracy issue. Most of us on HN would agree that creating new, more onerous, and more difficult to crack DRM is not the answer to piracy. You instead convince pirates that it is more ethical, easier, or less risky to purchase something than pirate it. The general citizen is not going to win a spy game against the NSA. Our only hope of preventing something like this from happening again is to put legal penalties and precautions in place to make sure that the government does not overstep its bounds. Using burner phones isn't going to accomplish anything.
    - mikeash 13y ago
      I don't think the analogy to piracy is a good one. DRM is not theoretically possible. If someone can view media, they can copy it, end of story. You can make it harder, but it's always going to be with tricks, not solid theory. Crypto, on the other hand, is theoretically possible, as far as I know. There may be holes in what's currently out there, but there's no reason in theory you can't end up with a crypto solution that the NSA can't crack. And I see no reason to think that you can't do this now. The idea that the NSA has cracked RSA or AES or whatever is just a little too out there IMO.
    - jlgreco 13y ago
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
daenney 13y ago
Why is this $75? The cheapest phone around is about $20, the Nokia 105 comes to mind for example. Add some dollars for the calls, texts and your margin $75 seems a bit steep.
- chadcf 13y ago
  That's what I'm wondering, how is this any different than going to a local store and paying cash for a burner Net10 phone? You can get them for $15 and they include enough minutes for most people to get through a month, and if you don't use a CC or store loyalty card there is no way for anyone to tie the phone to you.
  - nja 13y ago
    What about the security cameras at the store?
    - chadcf 13y ago
      Wear a hat and sunglasses if you're worried about it. Pay a bum to go in and buy it for you. Wear a ski mask! I'd be far more worried about the credit card transaction and ISP log from buying this online than I would be about a camera in the grocery store. Of course you could TOR the browsing or use a library computer. And maybe eventually they'll add support for non credit card payments that can't be tracked. But throwing on a hat and some sunglasses and heading to your neighborhood 7-11 seems a lot easier (and cheaper).
- Dirlewanger 13y ago
  People gotta feed their families man.
bluedino 13y ago
In 24, Jack only uses a phone once and then smashes it. How anonymous is a phone I've been using for a whole month?
- marquis 13y ago
  Some good advice posted: http://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/05/listen-up-future-deep-throats-this-is-how-to-leak-to-the-press-today&#x2F http://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/05/listen-up-future-deep-t...;
- mwally 13y ago
  You are not required to use it all month. If you want to smash the phone, go for it.
davidmr 13y ago
Out of curiosity, did you consult with attorneys before launch? I'm completely unqualified to answer the question, but I would think there's a possibility you could land yourself in a bit of a pickle if you shipped one that was later impounded in a law enforcement operation. It seems clear that you wouldn't have known it would be used illegally, but that wouldn't stop someone from ruining your month. (Congrats, of course)
zachgersh 13y ago
Irony that you need to use a burner laptop to order your burner phone?
runjake 13y ago
I'm curious about two things: 1.) How do you comply with E911 laws that require addresses for the end user? Whatever carrier you deal with will likely terminate any contracts it has to, upon discovery. 2.) How does the shipment process work? You may delete all records of the purchase transaction, but you're still shipping via UPS/FedEx/USPS/Etc and all of those maintain records on source/destination addresses and various other shipping details (size/weight/approx cost).
- lifeguard 13y ago
  1) GPS/GSM built into phone hardware 2) He said they destroy all records in their operation, but of course UPS/FedEx/USPS/Etc will maintain records
- jarek 13y ago
  Yeah, this is a joke. "Send your address to a stranger over the internet so they can ship it from a warehouse employing a small number of large corporations so you can be anonymous!" Pay-as-you-go phones bought in a grocery store are more "burner" than this.
alinspired 13y ago
unfortunately i have to question how long this operation can survive in US
cdjk 13y ago
Other people have commented on the payment issue - I'm glad you're looking into bitcoin. I'd be worried about delivery, too. I know you say you destroy customer information immediately, but if I'm truly paranoid I'm not going to trust that statement - I'd rather pay someone on craigslist to buy a bunch of prepaid phones for me. I'm just brainstorming, but would it be possible to set up some sort of physical tor/mixmaster style forwarding that would keep the final destination of the phone from ever being known to you? I'm not entirely sure how that would work, and it would probably be open to abuse, but it's an interesting thought. Also, could you consider posting something like rsync.net's warrant canary? http://www.rsync.net/resources/notices/canary.txt http://www.rsync.net/resources/notices/canary.txt It's not perfect, but it is a nice touch.
- fatman 13y ago
  Regarding delivery - Maybe something like a BufferBox paid for with cash/bitcoin? Does this exist?
  - tjohns 13y ago
    I think they're called "vending machines". ;)
    - cdjk 13y ago
      A bitcoin-accepting vending machine would be very cool, but that requires that you live near one. Setting up shipping seems a lot easier than creating a nation-wide vending machine network.
      - EvanKelly 13y ago
        Why would you prefer bitcoin over cash for anonymity at a vending machine?
        cdjk 13y ago
        Good point. Managing cash for a vending machine with high-value items seems like it might be a pain. I know there are various ipod vending machines around, but I assume most people use a credit card for those. But I suppose feeding some 20s isn't too hard.
skaevola 13y ago
SV begins monetizing the drug trade.
virgoguy 13y ago
even https://www.burnerphone.us&#x2F https://www.burnerphone.us/ is informing google (and a few other sites) when you visit.
DocG 13y ago
Although, I do see potential for this, pay with credit/debit card? It will be traceable who do I call, also it will show up in my card records. Also, there is going to be some record where it was sent. It will be probably sufficient for most users, but not all. I have it a little bit better, but not perfect. For 15 euros I will get phone + prepaid card. I can buy it from any local gas station or kiosk or mall, I can have some homeless to buy it for me. Prepaid over here means, it is as simple as old school phone cards. No name, no bank accounts, no contract, no credit/debit card. Cash and goodbye. I can also allow roaming just by sending sms to specific number(if it is not allowed), it will work almost everywhere(although the prices will be pretty high) (source(sorry, translator don't work with https https://www.elisa.ee/et/Eraklient/konekaart/konekomplekt/elisa-konekomplekt https://www.elisa.ee/et/Eraklient/konekaart/konekomplekt/eli...)
gesman 13y ago
I think it impossible for you to prove that you're not an outlet setup by the government monitoring service.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
rscale 13y ago
If anybody needs true, total anonymity it's worth reading this paper before buying any cell phone: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3607247/pdf/srep01376.pdf http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3607247/pdf/srep... The paper shows that 95% of cell phone subscribers are personally identifiable from VERY little spatio-temporal information. Another issue is that an upstream vendor could easily provide the government with the phone IMEIs and SIM IMSIs that they supply to BurnerPhone, without disclosing this to BurnerPhone. This would create a pool of phones that are self-identified as high-value surveillance targets. If I was in charge of identifying miscreants for a nasty regime, I'd also watch for SIM card changes (an IMEI whose IMSI changes on a regular basis), and I'd especially look for cliques of handsets that showed the same SIM-changing behavior. As such, I can't help but wonder if swapping SIM cards might generate unwanted attention.
- at-fates-hands 13y ago
  "Methods The dataset. This work was performed using an anonymized mobile phone dataset that contains call information for ,1.5 M users of a mobile phone operator. The data collection took place from April 2006 to June 2007 in a western country. Each time a user interacts with the mobile phone operator network by initiating or receiving a call or a text message, the location of the connecting antenna is recorded [Fig. 1A]. The dataset’s intrinsic spatial resolution is thus the maximal half-distance between antennas. The dataset’s intrinsic temporal resolution is one hour [Fig. 1B]." This seems kind of sketchy to me considering how CDMA networks currently work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_division_multiple_access#Spread-spectrum_characteristics_of_CDMA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_division_multiple_access#S... "These systems were designed using spread spectrum because of its security and resistance to jamming. Asynchronous CDMA has some level of privacy built in because the signal is spread using a pseudo-random code; this code makes the spread spectrum signals appear random or have noise-like properties. A receiver cannot demodulate this transmission without knowledge of the pseudo-random sequence used to encode the data. CDMA is also resistant to jamming. A jamming signal only has a finite amount of power available to jam the signal. The jammer can either spread its energy over the entire bandwidth of the signal or jam only part of the entire signal."
ck2 13y ago
Except the NSA already gets all visa/mastercard transactions directly from their network. Destroying the transaction on the vendor side is useless.
noonespecial 13y ago
These types of services might just turn out to be the "killer app" that pushes bitcoin out of collector space and into currency use. People will already be committed to going out of their way to obtain extra privacy. Figuring out how to use bitcoin for the transaction will seem like little additional effort.
yoster 13y ago
What a ripoff. I can get a cheap throwaway phone with unlimited minutes/text for less than $50. I also can buy it with cash at any mom and pop cellular phone shop. I don't need I.D. and I can use any fucking name I want. This phone needs a fucking credit card and an address to deliver. Might as well put up a fucking sign saying dumbest criminal in the world! Leaving a paper trail all over the damn place.
jfmercer 13y ago
+1 for Bitcoin
hgfischer 13y ago
What's going on in USA? Why does you care so much about privacy? You look like crazy paranoid to me, as if you all are trying to hide something from a criminal or a law enforcement. I bet there are lots of North Americans complaining of this PRISM an Verizon thing, but at the same time is using Foursquare and every cool internet location-based mobile app you also created. There is a dictate in my country that says (in other words) that "If you are innocent then you have nothing to fear." This BurnerPhone service would be used only for criminals in my country. I see no use for innocent people. This is too much even for people that have something non-criminal action to hide, like cheating your spouse. If you have fear of your government watching you, then it's better to move to another country or live like a monkey in the forest. Burn your social security card and go live as if you didn't exist for your government.
- pyvek 13y ago
  Ah, the old `if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear` fallacy. I'll leave you with this - http://falkvinge.net/2012/07/19/debunking-the-dangerous-nothing-to-hide-nothing-to-fear&#x2F http://falkvinge.net/2012/07/19/debunking-the-dangerous-noth...;
forgotAgain 13y ago
Go to Walmart and get a $35 phone for cash. Includes a 30 day service plan card with with 1000 minutes, 1000 text and MMS messages, 30 MB data
onion273918192 13y ago
I got a far cheaper phone through a reseller. No contract. You can wear a disguise, use a fake name, and pay cash. Better yet, it isn't shipped to your HOME ADDRESS.
xmpir 13y ago
Nice timing concerning PRISM
youngerdryas 13y ago
How easy is it to set on fire, I love the smell of burning electronics.
- classeaflex 13y ago
  Talvez não seja tão facil assim. http://www.classeaflex.com.br http://www.classeaflex.com.br
chc 13y ago
The old adage goes, "Don't mine for gold — sell pickaxes to the miners." I guess the modern adaptation is, "Don't deal drugs — sell phones to the drug dealers."
aetch 13y ago
Isn't this service just taking advantage of the situation at hand? This is like offering a 'premium' burner phone, but burner phones aren't supposed to come with nice unlimited plans and etc. You could get a Tracfone with some starter minutes for $10 and a 50 minute card for $10 with cash. The 50 minutes actually becomes 100 minutes due to Tracfone's 2x minutes promo. http://www.tracfone.com/phones.jsp http://www.tracfone.com/phones.jsp Yes, this isn't 'unlimited' usage, but the whole point of a burner phone is to use it for one time communication, NOT for normal, regular comms over a 30 day period. You're just asking to be tracked if you did that anyway. Seems like you would just be paying for a burner phone in a pretty box and pretty service when you could go out and buy one yourself. Also, the burnerphone.us whois indicates that it was registered less than a month ago in May 2013.
rmason 13y ago
If this company were not in the USA I might have confidence in their product being truly anonymous. All they've done is serve as a concentrating function for the NSA. You're far better off buying a phone for cash from a different 7-11 each month. Perhaps this might be a business opportunity for the North Koreans?
briancaw2 13y ago
Hasn't anyone here ever watched The Wire?
zhemao 13y ago
Is it really possible to completely anonymize an online purchase? Like others have said, the sheer act of buying something online which must be shipped somewhere is going to leave some trace. Unless both money and phone are transferred via a special courier (preferably in one those suitcases that you handcuff to yourself), a dedicated surveillance effort would be able to discover the customer's identity eventually. I'm sure you guys are well-intentioned, but, honestly, if I was paranoid enough to need one of these, I sure as heck wouldn't be comfortable buying it online. I'd probably just buy a cheap pre-paid cellphone from a corner store using cash.
confluence 13y ago
Whenever I see something like this come up, my brain automatically screams: Honeypot! Services such as these attract the paranoid and the criminal in large enough amounts that they make great ways to catch criminals without having to do any leg work whatsoever. Sell burners, track all of them via GPS/monitor all calls/use microphone to record real life conversations at random times then use said data to bring people down. The same could be said for bitcoin exchangers, former liberty reserve exchangers, seed boxes, private VPNs and a host of other "secure" services. I'm not positively stating that any of these kinds of services are actually honeypots, but it probably should be something that one considers before using them for more nefarious purposes. Makes you wonder what you can really trust. Probably nothing. Honeypots all round! No wait, it's a trap!

Burner Phone

317 points by rubyrescue 13y ago

rubyrescue 13y ago

Needs to be payable in bitcoin?

rdegges 13y ago
One of the product creators here -- we're working on this :) We ended up launching the site today (a week earlier than expected), due to the press on the topic. We'll have bitcoin support by tomorrow.

jgalt212 13y ago

I think it's still better to walk into a random Walgreen's and purchase a burner there with cash.

rdegges 13y ago
Hey, one of the creators here -- I wrote about this in another thread, but here's why we think we're better than physical stores: - You can order the product online without making a physical appearance anywhere. - Many of the prepaid cell phones in physical stores come with the SIM chips activated -- so the phone's location has already been broadcasted to cell towers and is pre-registered, making it slightly less anonymous for the end user. - We're going to be accepting bitcoin in the near future (we're finishing that integration now), so we hope to compete with cash purchases in that regard. - You can recycle these phones like you would normal phones. - We piggyback off a ton of different US carriers -- so as you move around you'll be swapping between various carriers in your region.
- gburt 13y ago
  Still doesn't deal with the fact I have to give you my address...
nja 13y ago
Then you're on the security camera footage. How would you avoid that?
- eddieroger 13y ago
  Hat and sunglasses? It sounds cliche, but the prosecution has the burden of proof, and if they can't make out your facial features or hair, and you don't arrive on a traceable mode of transportation (like, a bus would work), then it could have been anyone.
  - Terretta 13y ago
    See sibling comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5841187 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5841187
Terretta 13y ago
The the "strip search prank call" suspect (fictionalized in the recent movie Compliance) was located through video footage of him purchasing "anonymous" phone cards with cash: Learning that the call had been made with an AT&T calling card... they used the serial number of the calling card used to make the call, and learned that the card had come from a different [Panama City] Wal-Mart store than the card used for the Massachusetts calls. Using Wal-Mart's records of the second store, the cash register, and time of the purchase of that card, the police were able to find surveillance camera video of the transaction. Unlike the Massachusetts investigation, which had gone cold when surveillance video failed to show the purchaser because the cameras were trained on the parking lot and not the registers, the cameras at the particular store where the card used in the Mount Washington call was purchased were trained on the cashiers. The buyer in the video was wearing a correctional officer's uniform for the private security firm Corrections Corporation of America. Video and stills from both Wal-Marts were compared and the same man was seen entering and exiting the Wal-Mart at the time of the earlier purchase. The police used this footage to produce a front-and-back composite image of the suspect, and subsequent queries to the private correctional company's human resources department led to the identification of the buyer as David R. Stewart. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strip_search_prank_call_scam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strip_search_prank_call_scam
- jgalt212 13y ago
  I'm sure there are burner retailers that don't have security cameras on 24/7 like Wal Mart. Or even if they do, they may recycle their tapes more quickly than Wal Mar would. Buy some burners now--wait six months until activating/using.
- skaevola 13y ago
  He was also acquitted of all charges due to lack of evidence.

tocomment 13y ago

Great idea! Thanks for making this. So what happens after 30 days, is there a way to recharge the phone minutes?

rdegges 13y ago
Thanks! After 30 days, you can purchase a new SIM chip from us directly if you'd like -- but the existing SIM chip will be completely unusable. Right now our site only sells the phone + chip together, but we can sell both the hardware phone and SIM chips separately as well (3 day, 7 day, 14 day, and 30 day SIM chips). Due to our early launch (this is our MVP), we don't have those advertised on the website yet (although, if you email us, we can arrange something).
- josscrowcroft 13y ago
  I recommend maybe doing a deal, phone + multiple SIM cards ($x each per SIM) Then we could order in bulk, use a temporary address, and have enough for a year's anonymous talking without needing to make another order..

tocomment 13y ago

Who did your web design? I love it.

citizens 13y ago
http://themeforest.net/item/kameleon-premium-business-product-template/135337?WT.ac=portfolio_thumb&WT.seg_1=portfolio_thumb&WT.z_author=ChrisMooney http://themeforest.net/item/kameleon-premium-business-produc...

fatbat 13y ago

Is it biodegradable?

drglitch 13y ago

So what happens when the government (or IRS) persuades you to not destroy transaction logs with a $5 wrench? http://xkcd.com/538&#x2F http://xkcd.com/538/

rdegges 13y ago
We're committed to this product, not only for our users, but also for ourselves. We value our privacy HIGHLY, and wouldn't be open to selling out. We'd much rather just close down the company than destroy our core principles.
- rolleiflex 13y ago
  If there were some sort of a dead man's switch in your service ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_man's_switch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_man's_switch ), this would be a lot more believable.
  - rdegges 13y ago
    This is really interesting -- looking into this now.
  - cakeface 13y ago
    I'm confused with how a dead man's switch would be useful in this scenario. If the company is persuaded to keep the transaction logs linking sim cards/phones and credit card numbers/addresses then how would we know? I don't see that as being fixed by having a dead man's switch.
    - bap 13y ago
      At that level of 'paranoia' / privacy concern you might as assume this is an elaborate honey-pot. An unlikely scenario but certainly the safest assumption from a privacy perspective.
- cunac 13y ago
  Churchill: "Madam, would you sleep with me for five million pounds?" Socialite: "My goodness, Mr. Churchill... Well, I suppose... we would have to discuss terms, of course... " Churchill: "Would you sleep with me for five pounds?" Socialite: "Mr. Churchill, what kind of woman do you think I am?!" Churchill: "Madam, we've already established that. Now we are haggling about the price” Just negotiate in opposite direction :-)

rdegges 13y ago

Hey all, I'm one of the creators of BurnerPhone, and just wanted to leave a comment with a few facts about the product. We weren't really planning on launching this thing so quickly (we planned on making improvements to the site, etc. and launching in the next couple of weeks) -- but since all the press about the NSA / phone stuff came out it seemed like a good time to put our MVP online. Anyhow, we're basically trying to provide our users with a secure-as-possible communication device that allows them to remain as anonymous as possible. Yes -- the government can definitely collect call data and SMS data, but by using different devices and SIM cards (phone numbers) you can abstract away all but the most difficult to track details: your voice, your writing style (sms messages). Using a BurnerPhone allows you to make phone calls and send SMS messages that won't be linked back to your by your telco billing records. In regards to how we work: - These phones come with unlimited talk and text for 30 days, nationwide coverage. - We piggyback off of tons of US carriers, so depending on where you're located, you'll be connected to a different cellular network. - You can recycle these phones (we have a lot of plans with this in the future). I'd love to get some feedback from you guys, really respect HN and your opinions.

axus 13y ago
Sounds great! Doesn't a shipping record from BurnerPhone's warehouse to John Doe's address kind of spell things out, though?
- rdegges 13y ago
  We don't keep these records -- after we ship we destroy it. The USPS would have records for this sort of thing, of course, but you could also have items shipped to PO Boxes, places that offer greater anonymity, etc. Furthermore, it's very unlikely that within 30 days of usage you'd be tracked down / monitored and have records queried like that. It's definitely not a perfect system, but we're working on it :)
  - axus 13y ago
    Oh, a data plan would probably make a killer feature. Not sure how you would deal with people doing "things that are rightfully illegal" with it, though.

steveinator 13y ago

Two bullet points from the site: - Unlimited talk and text for 30 days. - 16 hour talk time. I'm confused. Which is it?

rdegges 13y ago
16 hour talk time is the amount of battery life you'll have if you're on the phone for 16 hours nonstop talking. You get 30 days of unlimited talk / text, so if you talk for more than 16 hours on the phone you'll need to recharge using the charging cord that comes with the phone. Sorry for the confusion there.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
ggoodale 13y ago
The 16 hour talk time is in reference to the battery life of the phone, I'm guessing (the next bullet references 30 days' standby time).
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

bradleyland 13y ago

Anything but cash/bitcoin leaves too much of a trail. Just because you destroy your records doesn't mean your merchant bank does. Nor does it mean my bank will.

rdegges 13y ago
We're adding bitcoin right now (will be available in the next day). We launched this early due to press on the subject, which is why it's not as polished as we'd like it to be =/
- elliottcarlson 13y ago
  I would add a note about that now so people know it is coming and you don't lose a potential customer because they saw the site today and had the same opinion of the parent comment.
- anaptdemise 13y ago
  "We launched this early due to press on the subject" So prematurely launching an incomplete and unvetted security/anonymity product to profiteer from momentary spikes in hysteria and paranoia is disingenuous at best. Besides all of the issues of payment, shipping, trust, legality, etc. that have already been raised, what is your companies qualifications to provide for secure/anonymous service?
CrazedGeek 13y ago
How much of a trail do prepaid cards leave? (I honestly have no idea.)
- arkades 13y ago
  As much as any normal credit card. They're linked to your social security number.
  - runako 13y ago
    Not all the time. If you buy a prepaid card at e.g. Target, they do not collect your SSN or IIRC any identifying information unless you opt to register the card. You might choose the register the card to replace in case of theft.

chatmasta 13y ago

Where should we ship this to?

steeve 13y ago

Sorry to say but you still have to pay by credit card (huge trail), and even if you use bitcoin, you still have to have the phone delivered somewhere, and to someone.

rdegges 13y ago
That's correct -- it's definitely not perfect, but we're working on it. One of the things to keep in mind, however, is that even if you order this phone and use it, it's highly unlikely that any organization will be able to track your phone within a 30 day period -- and even if they do, and they realize the phone is a BurnerPhone (unlikely), if they come talk to us we have no records of which phone was sent where, or even where things are shipped. They'd have to query the USPS, and then they'd have to speculate as to which phone went to the person in question.
- natrius 13y ago
  What happens when you get a National Security Letter that demands both longer data retention and your silence?
shortly 13y ago
it's, um, not illegal to buy a phone?

refurb 13y ago

How does this work? I thought the gov't required identifying information to be gathered when selling a cellular phone? What are the regulations? If the gov't wants to track down the owner of a phone, what do you do? Just say that you don't have that information?

rdegges 13y ago
Correct -- we literally keep no information here, so it's impossible for us to give information away.
- lisper 13y ago
  But we have to take your word for that, right? How do we know you're not a front for an NSA sting operation? (Feel free to treat that as a rhetorical question :-)
- refurb 13y ago
  OK, but I wonder, are you breaking any laws? I see two possible outcomes of this business model: 1. The gov't catches wind, demands you keep proper records and you say "no" so they shut you down. 2. The gov't comes to you asking for identifying information for a customer, you say "no" and they shut you down. I honestly don't know that much about it, so I can't claim that these two are the only possible outcomes. Can you provide more details? What are the regulations? Do you have a plan if the gov't comes knocking?

nikcub 13y ago

Why doesn't someone just built a Tor hidden service that is an interface to the Twilio (or similar) API? Sign up with Bitcoin, get a phone number and then send/receive SMS and send/receive calls using DAP/getUserMedia (html5 mic + audio) in a web browser. Using a physical cell phone still leaves a trace of the purchase, shipping, physical call location, cell site pings, etc. Plus in a lot of jurisdictions it is now a legal requirement to verify identity and adress with issuing phone numbers. Using a Tor hidden service (+VPN, etc.) I could be anybody anywhere in the world. Less bits figured out. edit: apologies if this is hijacking the thread

RaphiePS 13y ago
Twilio even has an in-browser VoIP client: http://www.twilio.com/client http://www.twilio.com/client
foobarqux 13y ago
Latency would make voice impractical.
- millerm 13y ago
  In this case, wouldn't it be acceptable? I mean, if we stay in the context of a burner and security is the main feature, would it matter so much if it was like basically talking on a half-duplex voice call? Again, if the main goal is security and anonymity, would it matter so much if the conversation wasn't as fluid as a 'regular' call?
- BHSPitMonkey 13y ago
  Maybe make it walkie-talkie style, like those old Nextel phones?
- AJ007 13y ago
  TorFone estimates 3-4 seconds of latency. Usable, but not practical.
yolesaber 13y ago
It doesn't seem as though Twilio accepts Bitcoins. In this case, would it be that whoever is running the Tor hidden service would have to purchase the account themselves and their reimbursement would be BTC?

jcromartie 13y ago

> Every time you make a purchase we'll package and ship your order, then destroy all transaction records in our system. We make it impossible to give or share your information with anyone. Come on. There is absolutely no way you can convince anybody of this fact. It is impossible (and I mean this in the mathematical sense) to prove that you have no record of how it was purchased or where the phone went.

joshuahedlund 13y ago
Don't some kind of minimal transaction records generally need to be kept for tax purposes?
rz2k 13y ago
Since all mail has to be sorted to reach its destination, and there's little reason to expect that shipper and recipient data is given an expectation of privacy it probably does not even matter whether the company keeps records. I suppose it is safe to assume that it would be unknown which SIM card is inside of the package, but having a list of recipients in a given area code and merely noticing when SIM cards came online in that area would be somewhat of a give away. It seems like the phone would just encourage anyone performing surveillance that you are more likely to be communicating something they'd find interesting, and therefore they might spend more resources on looking at these customers. I think it serves the public good when more people communicate in ways that can not be traced or listened in on, but I don't think it serves specific customers of this service if they have concerns about their own anonymity, and might be doing things like disclosing information about official corruption.

rdegges 13y ago

Damn, it looks like this article just got banned from the front page of HN. =/

cakeface 13y ago
I still see it on the front page.

nvr219 13y ago

What, no sign in with facebook button?

pkulak 13y ago

If you need to coordinate your criminal activities all The Wire-like, why not just use some form of encrypted communication using the phone you already have? Maybe just get one for criminal activity only to be extra safe? Aren't all these problems solved by some 2048-bit encryption? I guess the phone company can see which IP you're making a connection too, but that doesn't seem like much. Why do we have to waste this much perfectly good hardware just to be anonymous?

scott_karana 13y ago
The timing of an attack tied to your identity can be really damaging.
socillion 13y ago
One good reason to use a different phone is geolocation data (determined from which cell towers you connect to) which is classified as "metadata" and potentially stored indefinitely. If your cell is turned on, your phone company knows where you are.
nitrogen 13y ago
I guess the phone company can see which IP you're making a connection too, but that doesn't seem like much. It may not seem like much, but it's actually everything. Social network analysis gives a significant amount of information about peoples' activities, even if those activities themselves are encrypted.

CanSpice 13y ago

The government said "trust us" too. I'm not entirely sure why anybody who wants to buy an untraceable phone would go to a website run by an unknown person to buy one. There are so many ways that this could go wrong for the phone purchaser. I'm thinking either this is a spoof site where in a week's time you'll just say "Ha! Look at all this private information you just gave a complete stranger!" or it's a government-run honeypot.

rdegges 13y ago
Not sure what I can do to prove this to you since we just launched and don't have much of a history, but I'm happy to answer any questions. I'm a programmer at a telephone company currently, and have worked in the telco industry for a while now. I have no government affiliations at all.
- monkeynotes 13y ago
  > I have no government affiliations at all. Nice try CIA ops.
  - dsl 13y ago
    It would be the FBI, actually.
- AsymetricCom 13y ago
  What chipset do you use to manage baseband communications? Do you implement any Trusted Computing standards? Can you tell us anything about the hardware architecture?
masukomi 13y ago
That was my thought too. If i'm so concerned about security there is no way I'm going to trust a web site like this. Even if we give rdegges the benefit of the doubt and say he actually is, there's no way to know that 2 weeks from now the govt doesn't hijack / buy the site, OR that they don't just start tailing these guys on their trips to the post office. Great way to find people with a better-than-average likelyhood of being up to no good.

coherentpony 13y ago

Do all the phones look the same? Because if so, "If you'd like to recycle your Burner when you're done using it, just throw it into any cell phone disposal box (these can usually be found at office supply stores)." Ummmm.

marcamillion 13y ago

I know this has been said before....but I just couldn't help but chuckle at the irony of a "completely anonymous" phone, only able to be bought with a credit card :|

rdegges 13y ago
This is 100% due to us launching earlier than expected (with all the press about the NSA stuff). We're implementing bitcoin purchasing right now, will have it ready by tomorrow. Sorry for the inconvenience =/ I realize it's not perfect, but we're working on it ^^
- marcamillion 13y ago
  I know...you guys made a good call. Launching in the midst of this storm is very clever. I wish you all the best!
rdegges 13y ago
This is 100% due to us launching earlier than expected (with all the press about the NSA stuff). We're implementing bitcoin purchasing right now, will have it ready by tomorrow. Sorry for the inconvenience =/ I realize it's not perfect, but we're working on it ^^
pyre 13y ago
Pre-paid credit card bought with cash?

guyht 13y ago

Whats your moral stance on your business? There are a lot of legitimate uses for your product, but its also (for obvious reasons) very attractive to people involved in criminal activities. Will you be putting any measures in place to counteract this? For example, lets say you were regularly getting orders to a foreign country which is known to be a hot spot for terrorism. Then, you have the police knocking on your door, because there has been a major terror threat in a US city, and they need to track the terrorists phones. I can guess the answer, but just want to make the point there are usually 2 sides to an anonymous service like this.

obviouslygreen 13y ago
This just isn't a useful question. I can understand where it comes from, but "this could be used for bad things" puts it in exactly the same camp as cash, cars, anything heavy enough to throw at someone, and pretty much... well, everything. If the service were "weapon specifically designed to kill large Rhinoceri and then instantly sever their horns" or "phone that will encrypt and forward only narcotic-trafficking-related conversations," this point would be valid.

slg 13y ago

Can someone provide a few examples of legal use cases for this type of thing? I understand people who want to protect their personal information, but these are going way out of their way to actively conceal their personal information. I just don't know why that would be a priority unless you are trying to hide something. I am not usually in the "you have nothing to fear unless you are hiding something" camp, but these seem pretty extreme.

ricardobeat 13y ago
Does it still sound "pretty extreme" after the news on PRISM?
- slg 13y ago
  Yes. The answer to this scandal is not making it technically harder for the government to get our information. I would compare it to DRM/piracy issue. Most of us on HN would agree that creating new, more onerous, and more difficult to crack DRM is not the answer to piracy. You instead convince pirates that it is more ethical, easier, or less risky to purchase something than pirate it. The general citizen is not going to win a spy game against the NSA. Our only hope of preventing something like this from happening again is to put legal penalties and precautions in place to make sure that the government does not overstep its bounds. Using burner phones isn't going to accomplish anything.
  - mikeash 13y ago
    I don't think the analogy to piracy is a good one. DRM is not theoretically possible. If someone can view media, they can copy it, end of story. You can make it harder, but it's always going to be with tricks, not solid theory. Crypto, on the other hand, is theoretically possible, as far as I know. There may be holes in what's currently out there, but there's no reason in theory you can't end up with a crypto solution that the NSA can't crack. And I see no reason to think that you can't do this now. The idea that the NSA has cracked RSA or AES or whatever is just a little too out there IMO.
  - jlgreco 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

daenney 13y ago

Why is this $75? The cheapest phone around is about $20, the Nokia 105 comes to mind for example. Add some dollars for the calls, texts and your margin $75 seems a bit steep.

chadcf 13y ago
That's what I'm wondering, how is this any different than going to a local store and paying cash for a burner Net10 phone? You can get them for $15 and they include enough minutes for most people to get through a month, and if you don't use a CC or store loyalty card there is no way for anyone to tie the phone to you.
- nja 13y ago
  What about the security cameras at the store?
  - chadcf 13y ago
    Wear a hat and sunglasses if you're worried about it. Pay a bum to go in and buy it for you. Wear a ski mask! I'd be far more worried about the credit card transaction and ISP log from buying this online than I would be about a camera in the grocery store. Of course you could TOR the browsing or use a library computer. And maybe eventually they'll add support for non credit card payments that can't be tracked. But throwing on a hat and some sunglasses and heading to your neighborhood 7-11 seems a lot easier (and cheaper).
Dirlewanger 13y ago
People gotta feed their families man.

bluedino 13y ago

In 24, Jack only uses a phone once and then smashes it. How anonymous is a phone I've been using for a whole month?

marquis 13y ago
Some good advice posted: http://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/05/listen-up-future-deep-throats-this-is-how-to-leak-to-the-press-today&#x2F http://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/05/listen-up-future-deep-t...;
mwally 13y ago
You are not required to use it all month. If you want to smash the phone, go for it.

davidmr 13y ago

Out of curiosity, did you consult with attorneys before launch? I'm completely unqualified to answer the question, but I would think there's a possibility you could land yourself in a bit of a pickle if you shipped one that was later impounded in a law enforcement operation. It seems clear that you wouldn't have known it would be used illegally, but that wouldn't stop someone from ruining your month. (Congrats, of course)

zachgersh 13y ago

Irony that you need to use a burner laptop to order your burner phone?

runjake 13y ago

I'm curious about two things: 1.) How do you comply with E911 laws that require addresses for the end user? Whatever carrier you deal with will likely terminate any contracts it has to, upon discovery. 2.) How does the shipment process work? You may delete all records of the purchase transaction, but you're still shipping via UPS/FedEx/USPS/Etc and all of those maintain records on source/destination addresses and various other shipping details (size/weight/approx cost).

lifeguard 13y ago
1) GPS/GSM built into phone hardware 2) He said they destroy all records in their operation, but of course UPS/FedEx/USPS/Etc will maintain records
jarek 13y ago
Yeah, this is a joke. "Send your address to a stranger over the internet so they can ship it from a warehouse employing a small number of large corporations so you can be anonymous!" Pay-as-you-go phones bought in a grocery store are more "burner" than this.

alinspired 13y ago

unfortunately i have to question how long this operation can survive in US

cdjk 13y ago

Other people have commented on the payment issue - I'm glad you're looking into bitcoin. I'd be worried about delivery, too. I know you say you destroy customer information immediately, but if I'm truly paranoid I'm not going to trust that statement - I'd rather pay someone on craigslist to buy a bunch of prepaid phones for me. I'm just brainstorming, but would it be possible to set up some sort of physical tor/mixmaster style forwarding that would keep the final destination of the phone from ever being known to you? I'm not entirely sure how that would work, and it would probably be open to abuse, but it's an interesting thought. Also, could you consider posting something like rsync.net's warrant canary? http://www.rsync.net/resources/notices/canary.txt http://www.rsync.net/resources/notices/canary.txt It's not perfect, but it is a nice touch.

fatman 13y ago
Regarding delivery - Maybe something like a BufferBox paid for with cash/bitcoin? Does this exist?
- tjohns 13y ago
  I think they're called "vending machines". ;)
  - cdjk 13y ago
    A bitcoin-accepting vending machine would be very cool, but that requires that you live near one. Setting up shipping seems a lot easier than creating a nation-wide vending machine network.
    - EvanKelly 13y ago
      Why would you prefer bitcoin over cash for anonymity at a vending machine?
      - cdjk 13y ago
        Good point. Managing cash for a vending machine with high-value items seems like it might be a pain. I know there are various ipod vending machines around, but I assume most people use a credit card for those. But I suppose feeding some 20s isn't too hard.

skaevola 13y ago

SV begins monetizing the drug trade.

virgoguy 13y ago

even https://www.burnerphone.us&#x2F https://www.burnerphone.us/ is informing google (and a few other sites) when you visit.

DocG 13y ago

Although, I do see potential for this, pay with credit/debit card? It will be traceable who do I call, also it will show up in my card records. Also, there is going to be some record where it was sent. It will be probably sufficient for most users, but not all. I have it a little bit better, but not perfect. For 15 euros I will get phone + prepaid card. I can buy it from any local gas station or kiosk or mall, I can have some homeless to buy it for me. Prepaid over here means, it is as simple as old school phone cards. No name, no bank accounts, no contract, no credit/debit card. Cash and goodbye. I can also allow roaming just by sending sms to specific number(if it is not allowed), it will work almost everywhere(although the prices will be pretty high) (source(sorry, translator don't work with https https://www.elisa.ee/et/Eraklient/konekaart/konekomplekt/elisa-konekomplekt https://www.elisa.ee/et/Eraklient/konekaart/konekomplekt/eli...)

gesman 13y ago

I think it impossible for you to prove that you're not an outlet setup by the government monitoring service.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

rscale 13y ago

If anybody needs true, total anonymity it's worth reading this paper before buying any cell phone: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3607247/pdf/srep01376.pdf http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3607247/pdf/srep... The paper shows that 95% of cell phone subscribers are personally identifiable from VERY little spatio-temporal information. Another issue is that an upstream vendor could easily provide the government with the phone IMEIs and SIM IMSIs that they supply to BurnerPhone, without disclosing this to BurnerPhone. This would create a pool of phones that are self-identified as high-value surveillance targets. If I was in charge of identifying miscreants for a nasty regime, I'd also watch for SIM card changes (an IMEI whose IMSI changes on a regular basis), and I'd especially look for cliques of handsets that showed the same SIM-changing behavior. As such, I can't help but wonder if swapping SIM cards might generate unwanted attention.

at-fates-hands 13y ago
"Methods The dataset. This work was performed using an anonymized mobile phone dataset that contains call information for ,1.5 M users of a mobile phone operator. The data collection took place from April 2006 to June 2007 in a western country. Each time a user interacts with the mobile phone operator network by initiating or receiving a call or a text message, the location of the connecting antenna is recorded [Fig. 1A]. The dataset’s intrinsic spatial resolution is thus the maximal half-distance between antennas. The dataset’s intrinsic temporal resolution is one hour [Fig. 1B]." This seems kind of sketchy to me considering how CDMA networks currently work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_division_multiple_access#Spread-spectrum_characteristics_of_CDMA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_division_multiple_access#S... "These systems were designed using spread spectrum because of its security and resistance to jamming. Asynchronous CDMA has some level of privacy built in because the signal is spread using a pseudo-random code; this code makes the spread spectrum signals appear random or have noise-like properties. A receiver cannot demodulate this transmission without knowledge of the pseudo-random sequence used to encode the data. CDMA is also resistant to jamming. A jamming signal only has a finite amount of power available to jam the signal. The jammer can either spread its energy over the entire bandwidth of the signal or jam only part of the entire signal."

ck2 13y ago

Except the NSA already gets all visa/mastercard transactions directly from their network. Destroying the transaction on the vendor side is useless.

noonespecial 13y ago

These types of services might just turn out to be the "killer app" that pushes bitcoin out of collector space and into currency use. People will already be committed to going out of their way to obtain extra privacy. Figuring out how to use bitcoin for the transaction will seem like little additional effort.

yoster 13y ago

What a ripoff. I can get a cheap throwaway phone with unlimited minutes/text for less than $50. I also can buy it with cash at any mom and pop cellular phone shop. I don't need I.D. and I can use any fucking name I want. This phone needs a fucking credit card and an address to deliver. Might as well put up a fucking sign saying dumbest criminal in the world! Leaving a paper trail all over the damn place.

jfmercer 13y ago

+1 for Bitcoin

hgfischer 13y ago

What's going on in USA? Why does you care so much about privacy? You look like crazy paranoid to me, as if you all are trying to hide something from a criminal or a law enforcement. I bet there are lots of North Americans complaining of this PRISM an Verizon thing, but at the same time is using Foursquare and every cool internet location-based mobile app you also created. There is a dictate in my country that says (in other words) that "If you are innocent then you have nothing to fear." This BurnerPhone service would be used only for criminals in my country. I see no use for innocent people. This is too much even for people that have something non-criminal action to hide, like cheating your spouse. If you have fear of your government watching you, then it's better to move to another country or live like a monkey in the forest. Burn your social security card and go live as if you didn't exist for your government.

pyvek 13y ago
Ah, the old `if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear` fallacy. I'll leave you with this - http://falkvinge.net/2012/07/19/debunking-the-dangerous-nothing-to-hide-nothing-to-fear&#x2F http://falkvinge.net/2012/07/19/debunking-the-dangerous-noth...;

forgotAgain 13y ago

Go to Walmart and get a $35 phone for cash. Includes a 30 day service plan card with with 1000 minutes, 1000 text and MMS messages, 30 MB data

onion273918192 13y ago

I got a far cheaper phone through a reseller. No contract. You can wear a disguise, use a fake name, and pay cash. Better yet, it isn't shipped to your HOME ADDRESS.

xmpir 13y ago

Nice timing concerning PRISM

youngerdryas 13y ago

How easy is it to set on fire, I love the smell of burning electronics.

classeaflex 13y ago
Talvez não seja tão facil assim. http://www.classeaflex.com.br http://www.classeaflex.com.br

chc 13y ago

The old adage goes, "Don't mine for gold — sell pickaxes to the miners." I guess the modern adaptation is, "Don't deal drugs — sell phones to the drug dealers."

aetch 13y ago

Isn't this service just taking advantage of the situation at hand? This is like offering a 'premium' burner phone, but burner phones aren't supposed to come with nice unlimited plans and etc. You could get a Tracfone with some starter minutes for $10 and a 50 minute card for $10 with cash. The 50 minutes actually becomes 100 minutes due to Tracfone's 2x minutes promo. http://www.tracfone.com/phones.jsp http://www.tracfone.com/phones.jsp Yes, this isn't 'unlimited' usage, but the whole point of a burner phone is to use it for one time communication, NOT for normal, regular comms over a 30 day period. You're just asking to be tracked if you did that anyway. Seems like you would just be paying for a burner phone in a pretty box and pretty service when you could go out and buy one yourself. Also, the burnerphone.us whois indicates that it was registered less than a month ago in May 2013.

rmason 13y ago

If this company were not in the USA I might have confidence in their product being truly anonymous. All they've done is serve as a concentrating function for the NSA. You're far better off buying a phone for cash from a different 7-11 each month. Perhaps this might be a business opportunity for the North Koreans?

briancaw2 13y ago

Hasn't anyone here ever watched The Wire?

zhemao 13y ago

Is it really possible to completely anonymize an online purchase? Like others have said, the sheer act of buying something online which must be shipped somewhere is going to leave some trace. Unless both money and phone are transferred via a special courier (preferably in one those suitcases that you handcuff to yourself), a dedicated surveillance effort would be able to discover the customer's identity eventually. I'm sure you guys are well-intentioned, but, honestly, if I was paranoid enough to need one of these, I sure as heck wouldn't be comfortable buying it online. I'd probably just buy a cheap pre-paid cellphone from a corner store using cash.

confluence 13y ago

Whenever I see something like this come up, my brain automatically screams: Honeypot! Services such as these attract the paranoid and the criminal in large enough amounts that they make great ways to catch criminals without having to do any leg work whatsoever. Sell burners, track all of them via GPS/monitor all calls/use microphone to record real life conversations at random times then use said data to bring people down. The same could be said for bitcoin exchangers, former liberty reserve exchangers, seed boxes, private VPNs and a host of other "secure" services. I'm not positively stating that any of these kinds of services are actually honeypots, but it probably should be something that one considers before using them for more nefarious purposes. Makes you wonder what you can really trust. Probably nothing. Honeypots all round! No wait, it's a trap!