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I've been following the PPWR in news and social media. Everybody is lamenting about the micro-enterprises that see their business squashed, but mostly because t

by m000 23d ago

I've been following the PPWR in news and social media. Everybody is lamenting about the micro-enterprises that see their business squashed, but mostly because they are involved in one. I do empathize with them and really want to see these small business surviving and thriving. But then, in the context of discussion, nobody asks what matters: Cui bono? To me, this looks like a direct handout to Amazon and similar (big) enterprises: Pay a % "Amazon tax" to have your fulfilment handled by them, and your PPWR problem goes away. And PPWR comes a short month after another Amazon-friendly legislation: The €3 per item-kind customs duty for items shipped from outside EU. Obviously, direct shipping from China had been undercutting Amazon-and-similar prices, were you willing to wait for a couple of weeks for your package to arrive. The new duty drastically changed the balance in the delivery time vs price calculation. So, we have a streak of 2 legislations in a matter of a couple of months, benefiting a specific business model, and conveniently timed just before (€3 duty) and during (PPWR) the European Parliament recess. Coincidence much?

mordae 23d ago
It is not. Big European business always get what they want. Which tends to be maintaining status quo.
- jorisw 23d ago
  Blanket statement, no backup
logronoide 23d ago
Obviously, you have never dealt with Amazon as a merchant. You still need to be compliant with PPWR, no matter you sell on Amazon, eBay, Aliexpress or the street corner.
- tecleandor 23d ago
  But one of those is not like the others. If you sell on Amazon, via the "Fulfilled by Amazon" system... Wouldn't be Amazon the one required to comply with PPWR? They're putting the stuff in boxes and all that stuff... (I have no idea)
  - ccozan 23d ago
    No absolutely no. We were selling some electronic stuff on Amazon. We were doing good. But then this came, the registration that become mandatory, took 3 months instead of 3 weeks and then they had no rules and deleted saying our device is not the right category. We closed shop after spending time and money. The system is horrenduos and has not stopped the chinese stuff on the Amazon at all.
    - rramon 23d ago
      Did you store your Amazon listed product on Amazon in their warehouse or send it out from your home or from a supplier?
      - ccozan 23d ago
        yes stored in their warehouse. But the law says I am a producer becase my logo and my registered brand is on the package. The packaging issue is orthogonal to Amazon. they just apply the law.
        IshKebab 23d ago
        As it should be! Amazon have little control over product packaging. (But of course this article is right about the insane admin and cost requirements for small companies.)
- j16sdiz 22d ago
  > You still need to be compliant with PPWR, no matter you sell on Amazon, eBay, Aliexpress or the street corner. I am 100% sure AliExpress just doesn't care and ship it anyway.
HtmlProgrammer 23d ago
This will directly stop Irish based people shopping on Amazon as the Irish Amazon is useless and everyone buys from Amazon UK. These fees are going to change that big time so it’s not all in favor of Amazon
- tgsovlerkhgsel 23d ago
  If Amazon was competent and saw that as a problem (doubtful, given how hard it is to filter items that actually ship to your country, as opposed to claiming to do so but then on the checkout page tell you otherwise), they could likely bulk-import the items to Ireland, then ship from there. I assume Aliexpress is ~~going to do~~ doing [1] exactly that to bypass the 3 EUR fee. I wonder if the packaging rules are a shortsighted attempt at sabotaging Chinese sellers without making it obvious. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Aliexpress/comments/1ukojbr/i_placed_an_eu_test_order_from_germany_after_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Aliexpress/comments/1ukojbr/i_place...
- kolp 23d ago
  I agree that amazon.ie is useless, but i think that Irish shoppers will still buy from Amazon UK for more expensive items, where the €3 fee is relatively insignificant. Amazon UK, even with the new €3 import fee, is still cheaper than local Irish retailers who take price gouging to new levels.
pembrook 23d ago
I’m no fan of big tech, but, at some point the conspiratorial bending over backwards to blame big business instead of the government representatives creating the actual harm gets ridiculous. Again, I often sympathize with the left leaning side of things, but you have to admit our side has a massive blind spot in terms of blaming all the worlds ills on a secret cabal of business elites instead of blaming the mechanism of government power actually creating the harm. If we’re being honest, Amazon feels zero threat from European small businesses and quite frankly barely sees much value in their EU ecomm business at all. If anybody wants to see the EU turn into one market with one set of simple regulations it’s them. Trust me, they are not worried about small Etsy sellers. The fundamental issue is the EU is a “union” in name only and the member states fundamentally don’t actually want to work together unanimously on most things. Yet, we’re paying all those officials in Brussels to do something, and the trivial green consumer issues like bottle caps are the only thing that doesn’t cause too big of a fight. It’s bike shedding 101. [1] Until we acknowledge that this is the true root of the problem instead of inventing tired conspiracies, we cannot solve any of the issues. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality
- freehorse 23d ago
  When big companies have the resources to lobby and pass regulations (EU or country wide level) it is hard to separate these two, in particular when there are long-lasting policies that consistently disadvantage smaller entrepreneurs/small property owners disproportionally. I think it is fair to point criticism to government/eu, but it also fair to point who actually benefits (intentionally or even not) from these.
  - eastbound 23d ago
    Up to the governments to require the split-up of companies which become too large. Up to the governments to avoid corruption. "The bribe was too seducing" is not a valid defense for citizens. The fact the gouvernements have an armed branch to enforce hegemony makes it more required, not more forgivable.
    - 23d ago
mike_hearn 23d ago
Amazon doesn't care about guys like Lectronz, they're far too small, and the EU Commission really doesn't care about Amazon. They're openly antagonistic to US tech firms. Occam's Razor applies here. These regulations exist because the EU is 10,000+ civil servants writing whatever laws they want with no meaningful democratic accountability (this sort of thing is nobody's priority). They love creating new laws, they love micromanagement, they always have and they always will. There is nothing here we haven't already seen with things like the bottle top regulations, laws about how fast kettles can boil water and more. And there is no end to this. The EU Commission is on a path that will completely kill the European economy, dragging it to Soviet levels or worse. By design there's no constitutional mechanism to force them to change course, save for every country following Britain and just leaving. That's why there's such a massive pile of propaganda trying to convince Europeans that Brexit was an unrepeatable disaster (which it wasn't, check the data for yourself).
- jorisw 23d ago
  > that Brexit was an unrepeatable disaster (which it wasn't, check the data for yourself). OK thanks I'll go find and check the data to back up your claim
  - badestrand 23d ago
    I'm not agreeing with everything that this user wrote but for sure the Brexit did not destroy UK's economy. GDP-wise the UK and France always developed very similarly before Brexit and also after Brexit, so it's hard to call it a "desaster".
  - Saline9515 23d ago
    I still remember the articles saying that Britons will have no food on shelves after Brexit.
    - lucasRW 22d ago
      And no flights to Europe !! Since then, both Ryanair and Easyjet have OPENED new flights.between the UK and mainland Europe...
framapotari 23d ago
I think Amazon just adds another layer of packaging. I can imagine you are still responsible for yours.
- 11mariom 23d ago
  And that's the irony for me - adds another package over package, but it probably complies with documents, I hope they are filled in paper. I get the idea behind the law. Not once I was surprised how many waste is in packaging and badly packaged goods (not only shipped, but even available in local shop). But this regulation changes nothing, just adds layer of paperwork and broke international shipping (many non-eu stopped selling to eu - I hope it's temporary only…).
  - deno 22d ago
    Don’t worry there’s regulation in the works that will mandate how much air you can have in the box[1]. The EU is on the case. [1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:52026XC03084 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:52...
    - bpt3 22d ago
      Good lord. At what point do we need to just wipe the slate clean and start over?
tsss 23d ago
More bureaucracy + more taxes + protection of status quo fits exactly into the EU's ideology. Amazon doesn't have to bribe anyone for that. The boot licking is so ingrained here that the lord doesn't even have to call. Europeans do it all on their own and they like it.
raverbashing 23d ago
Actually the strongest lobbyists for the €3 fee were European companies https://www.reddit.com/r/Aliexpress/comments/1ugpyoe/i_dug_around_a_bit_and_found_exactly_who_is/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Aliexpress/comments/1ugpyoe/i_dug_a... (but yes it's "conveniently good" for Amazon as well)
dreadnip 23d ago
What stops a person from starting a packaging/shipping business, paying the fees to ship and handle waste in all 27 euro countries and then charging customers a couple of cents for this service?
- rcxdude 23d ago
  Overhead means it's gonna cost more than a few cents each.
  - moffkalast 23d ago
    Just get some VCs to take the losses for you for a few years /s
- deleted 22d ago
  [deleted]
stefs 23d ago
this is addressed in "Solution #3: Allow marketplaces to represent and manage micro-enterprises collectively as if it were a single producer." so apparently, what you are describing is not what's actually happening.
- whazor 23d ago
  I think it will happen. And EU regulations are generally more two-sided where lots of innovations can happen by smaller marketplaces as well. Not just Amazon.
- mosura 22d ago
  Which is like creating the Apple App Store for physical products.
jorvi 22d ago
> And PPWR comes a short month after another Amazon-friendly legislation: The €3 per item-kind customs duty for items shipped from outside EU. If you dig a little deeper you will see that this legislation was sponsored, championed and lobbied by the largest pan-EU retail organization. How convenient. Just like Chinese EVs, can't let EU customers have access to the best goods for the lowest prices. Better to have lazy greedy EU businesses gouge them :)

by m000 23d ago

mordae 23d ago

It is not. Big European business always get what they want. Which tends to be maintaining status quo.

jorisw 23d ago
Blanket statement, no backup

logronoide 23d ago

Obviously, you have never dealt with Amazon as a merchant. You still need to be compliant with PPWR, no matter you sell on Amazon, eBay, Aliexpress or the street corner.

tecleandor 23d ago
But one of those is not like the others. If you sell on Amazon, via the "Fulfilled by Amazon" system... Wouldn't be Amazon the one required to comply with PPWR? They're putting the stuff in boxes and all that stuff... (I have no idea)
- ccozan 23d ago
  No absolutely no. We were selling some electronic stuff on Amazon. We were doing good. But then this came, the registration that become mandatory, took 3 months instead of 3 weeks and then they had no rules and deleted saying our device is not the right category. We closed shop after spending time and money. The system is horrenduos and has not stopped the chinese stuff on the Amazon at all.
  - rramon 23d ago
    Did you store your Amazon listed product on Amazon in their warehouse or send it out from your home or from a supplier?
    - ccozan 23d ago
      yes stored in their warehouse. But the law says I am a producer becase my logo and my registered brand is on the package. The packaging issue is orthogonal to Amazon. they just apply the law.
      - IshKebab 23d ago
        As it should be! Amazon have little control over product packaging. (But of course this article is right about the insane admin and cost requirements for small companies.)
j16sdiz 22d ago
> You still need to be compliant with PPWR, no matter you sell on Amazon, eBay, Aliexpress or the street corner. I am 100% sure AliExpress just doesn't care and ship it anyway.

HtmlProgrammer 23d ago

This will directly stop Irish based people shopping on Amazon as the Irish Amazon is useless and everyone buys from Amazon UK. These fees are going to change that big time so it’s not all in favor of Amazon

tgsovlerkhgsel 23d ago
If Amazon was competent and saw that as a problem (doubtful, given how hard it is to filter items that actually ship to your country, as opposed to claiming to do so but then on the checkout page tell you otherwise), they could likely bulk-import the items to Ireland, then ship from there. I assume Aliexpress is ~~going to do~~ doing [1] exactly that to bypass the 3 EUR fee. I wonder if the packaging rules are a shortsighted attempt at sabotaging Chinese sellers without making it obvious. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Aliexpress/comments/1ukojbr/i_placed_an_eu_test_order_from_germany_after_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Aliexpress/comments/1ukojbr/i_place...
kolp 23d ago
I agree that amazon.ie is useless, but i think that Irish shoppers will still buy from Amazon UK for more expensive items, where the €3 fee is relatively insignificant. Amazon UK, even with the new €3 import fee, is still cheaper than local Irish retailers who take price gouging to new levels.

pembrook 23d ago

I’m no fan of big tech, but, at some point the conspiratorial bending over backwards to blame big business instead of the government representatives creating the actual harm gets ridiculous. Again, I often sympathize with the left leaning side of things, but you have to admit our side has a massive blind spot in terms of blaming all the worlds ills on a secret cabal of business elites instead of blaming the mechanism of government power actually creating the harm. If we’re being honest, Amazon feels zero threat from European small businesses and quite frankly barely sees much value in their EU ecomm business at all. If anybody wants to see the EU turn into one market with one set of simple regulations it’s them. Trust me, they are not worried about small Etsy sellers. The fundamental issue is the EU is a “union” in name only and the member states fundamentally don’t actually want to work together unanimously on most things. Yet, we’re paying all those officials in Brussels to do something, and the trivial green consumer issues like bottle caps are the only thing that doesn’t cause too big of a fight. It’s bike shedding 101. [1] Until we acknowledge that this is the true root of the problem instead of inventing tired conspiracies, we cannot solve any of the issues. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality

freehorse 23d ago
When big companies have the resources to lobby and pass regulations (EU or country wide level) it is hard to separate these two, in particular when there are long-lasting policies that consistently disadvantage smaller entrepreneurs/small property owners disproportionally. I think it is fair to point criticism to government/eu, but it also fair to point who actually benefits (intentionally or even not) from these.
- eastbound 23d ago
  Up to the governments to require the split-up of companies which become too large. Up to the governments to avoid corruption. "The bribe was too seducing" is not a valid defense for citizens. The fact the gouvernements have an armed branch to enforce hegemony makes it more required, not more forgivable.
  - 23d ago

mike_hearn 23d ago

Amazon doesn't care about guys like Lectronz, they're far too small, and the EU Commission really doesn't care about Amazon. They're openly antagonistic to US tech firms. Occam's Razor applies here. These regulations exist because the EU is 10,000+ civil servants writing whatever laws they want with no meaningful democratic accountability (this sort of thing is nobody's priority). They love creating new laws, they love micromanagement, they always have and they always will. There is nothing here we haven't already seen with things like the bottle top regulations, laws about how fast kettles can boil water and more. And there is no end to this. The EU Commission is on a path that will completely kill the European economy, dragging it to Soviet levels or worse. By design there's no constitutional mechanism to force them to change course, save for every country following Britain and just leaving. That's why there's such a massive pile of propaganda trying to convince Europeans that Brexit was an unrepeatable disaster (which it wasn't, check the data for yourself).

jorisw 23d ago
> that Brexit was an unrepeatable disaster (which it wasn't, check the data for yourself). OK thanks I'll go find and check the data to back up your claim
- badestrand 23d ago
  I'm not agreeing with everything that this user wrote but for sure the Brexit did not destroy UK's economy. GDP-wise the UK and France always developed very similarly before Brexit and also after Brexit, so it's hard to call it a "desaster".
- Saline9515 23d ago
  I still remember the articles saying that Britons will have no food on shelves after Brexit.
  - lucasRW 22d ago
    And no flights to Europe !! Since then, both Ryanair and Easyjet have OPENED new flights.between the UK and mainland Europe...

framapotari 23d ago

I think Amazon just adds another layer of packaging. I can imagine you are still responsible for yours.

11mariom 23d ago
And that's the irony for me - adds another package over package, but it probably complies with documents, I hope they are filled in paper. I get the idea behind the law. Not once I was surprised how many waste is in packaging and badly packaged goods (not only shipped, but even available in local shop). But this regulation changes nothing, just adds layer of paperwork and broke international shipping (many non-eu stopped selling to eu - I hope it's temporary only…).
- deno 22d ago
  Don’t worry there’s regulation in the works that will mandate how much air you can have in the box[1]. The EU is on the case. [1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:52026XC03084 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:52...
  - bpt3 22d ago
    Good lord. At what point do we need to just wipe the slate clean and start over?

tsss 23d ago

More bureaucracy + more taxes + protection of status quo fits exactly into the EU's ideology. Amazon doesn't have to bribe anyone for that. The boot licking is so ingrained here that the lord doesn't even have to call. Europeans do it all on their own and they like it.

raverbashing 23d ago

Actually the strongest lobbyists for the €3 fee were European companies https://www.reddit.com/r/Aliexpress/comments/1ugpyoe/i_dug_around_a_bit_and_found_exactly_who_is/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Aliexpress/comments/1ugpyoe/i_dug_a... (but yes it's "conveniently good" for Amazon as well)

dreadnip 23d ago

What stops a person from starting a packaging/shipping business, paying the fees to ship and handle waste in all 27 euro countries and then charging customers a couple of cents for this service?

rcxdude 23d ago
Overhead means it's gonna cost more than a few cents each.
- moffkalast 23d ago
  Just get some VCs to take the losses for you for a few years /s
deleted 22d ago
[deleted]

stefs 23d ago

this is addressed in "Solution #3: Allow marketplaces to represent and manage micro-enterprises collectively as if it were a single producer." so apparently, what you are describing is not what's actually happening.

whazor 23d ago
I think it will happen. And EU regulations are generally more two-sided where lots of innovations can happen by smaller marketplaces as well. Not just Amazon.
mosura 22d ago
Which is like creating the Apple App Store for physical products.

jorvi 22d ago

> And PPWR comes a short month after another Amazon-friendly legislation: The €3 per item-kind customs duty for items shipped from outside EU. If you dig a little deeper you will see that this legislation was sponsored, championed and lobbied by the largest pan-EU retail organization. How convenient. Just like Chinese EVs, can't let EU customers have access to the best goods for the lowest prices. Better to have lazy greedy EU businesses gouge them :)