6 ms·

I'm glad it all worked out for this individual. I hope more people live their lives like this as the dystopia progresses. Unfortunately, especially in the US,

I'm glad it all worked out for this individual. I hope more people live their lives like this as the dystopia progresses. Unfortunately, especially in the US, exercising your rights, or even just reading every paper you're expected to put your name to, not only constantly pisses people off for some reason, but also puts you at a significant disadvantage compared to the people that never push back in the interest of not making waves, or even because "whatever it's fine."

solid_fuel 3mo ago
> Unfortunately, especially in the US, exercising your rights, or even just reading every paper you're expected to put your name to, not only constantly pisses people off for some reason Yup. It's particularly sad seeing other people in this very thread talking about how they would "ban this customer for life" just for knowing their rights. I think it's pathetic that this has become the culture amongst large swathes of Americans - especially ones who consider themselves patriotic. This country was founded in rebellion and the assertion of our rights, and somehow the exact opposite is now the ideal of many citizens now.
- trhway 3mo ago
  >I think it's pathetic that this has become the culture amongst large swathes of Americans - especially ones who consider themselves patriotic. This country was founded in rebellion and the assertion of our rights, and somehow the exact opposite is now the ideal of many citizens now. DHS is putting on the domestic terrorists watch list those people who took parts in the protests. Or at minimum threatens to put. And if you google a bit more you'd see that it isn't limited to ICE. Any dissent is perceived by the current government in a similar "terrorism" way. For majority of population that would completely chill any desire to assert rights. https://www.markey.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/letter_to_dhs_on_domestic_terrorist_database.pdf https://www.markey.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/letter_to_dhs_on... "U.S. Immigrations and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officers and senior Trump administration officials have repeatedly suggested that the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is building a “domestic terrorists” database comprising information on U.S. citizens protesting ICE’s actions in recent weeks. ... In recent weeks, DHS personnel and senior officials have repeatedly stated that the agency is engaged in efforts to monitor, catalog, and intimidate individuals engaged in peaceful protests"
  - solid_fuel 3mo ago
    Oh I’m well aware. It’s reprehensible and I am demanding accountability from my elected politicians. The only way we’ll see someone answer for these crimes, though, is if enough Americans give a shit to get off their fucking asses and actually put people into office who will bring change.
  - somenameforme 3mo ago
    The current government? Don't let partisanship blind one to how dumb things are. The Occupy Wallstreet protests were extensively surveilled and harassed [1], and it was a vastly more peaceful protest movement. Had it gained more traction there's a 100% chance Obama would've happily greenlit COINTELPRO [2] 2011. Such actions were already being effectively carried out in any case. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street#Government_crackdowns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street#Government_... [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
  - aand16 3mo ago
    Pretty sure nobody is worried about peaceful protests.
- treis 3mo ago
  I don't know that signing up for a rewards club and then complaining that you're being marketed to is quite the platonic ideal of rebellion you make it out to be.
deepsun 3mo ago
Once I rented an apartment in US, and the documents said that they can make videos, pictures and audio recordings of me and my family, and use it for their own purposes including commercial. I objected, but their position was that no one is going to involve legal department for me, and I am free to go away.
- bsder 3mo ago
  > and I am free to go away. This is the crux of the problem when landlords are allowed to form or join an "association" that gets too pervasive. This was at the heart of the RealPage lawsuits.
- smcleod 3mo ago
  Pretty sure that's a violation of fundamental human rights as it's your place of living. Surely that can't be legal, even in the US can it?
  - monkpit 3mo ago
    It doesn’t mean _inside_ the apartment. It means if they decide to film a commercial and you’re walking your dog in the background, they don’t have to ask you.
    - thayne 3mo ago
      That is probably why it is in there, and probably how it would be used in practice. But these types of documents are almost written to be as broad and ask you to give up as many rights as possible.
    - smcleod 3mo ago
      Oh right, that's not so bad. Isn't that just being part of modern society? It would be nice to opt to never be recorded but also, it's outside.
    - bigiain 3mo ago
      That sounds a lot like a rationalization desperately grasping at "surely it's not as insane as it sounds, what it _must_ mean is ... " I would want to read and perhaps get legal advice before relying on that interpretation - and before finding I signed over rights to my landlord to make candid porn of me and all his other tenants.
uproarchat 3mo ago
I am that person that reads every line of the contracts I sign, including ToS and PP. I appreciate that I can tell who it rubs the wrong way, because it tells me who will shake my hand without intending to honor their word. It changed the way I write these documents as well, the last ToS and PP I wrote can each be read in a single breath.
- anitil 3mo ago
  How do you manage the situation socially? I had a very important document with a very expensive professional booked for about 10 minutes. No way I could actually read it in that time - what would you do?
  - ambicapter 3mo ago
    Not GP, but probably ask them to send me the contract ahead of time, and explain that you need time to read it.
  - uproarchat 3mo ago
    "I appreciate the opportunity to work on this with you, I need to give this the time that it deserves to make sure I can honor the commitments in the contract." Always maintain your integrity, a big part of that is honoring your word. Integrity is the only thing you're born with in this life, and if you're lucky you take it with you on the way out. Any person worth getting into contracts with will appreciate the value in that.
- AlexanderHanff 3mo ago
  That simply isn't possible - you might like to think you read everything but research has shown that simply reading the terms and conditions of the top 100 websites amounts to a colossal amount of time (if you look at Prof. Lorie Cranor's research on this from around 2008, even back then the cost to the US in lost time was to the tune of trillions of dollars - now, they are much much worse than they were 18 years ago. The terms and conditions for Tetris on Android were longer than the entire works of Tolkien when combined. So yes, it would be nice to read all of these things, but we simply do not have the time available to do so.
cheese_van 3mo ago
Went to a new doctor. As part of the check-in process, I was asked to "sign" a little digital pad, so, as I was told, they could properly use my insurance. I asked to see the hard copy of what I was signing and they couldn't find one. Then, for some reason, they were unable to print one. I gave up and scribbled my sig with my finger and then was seen by a doctor. It's maddening.
- socalgal2 3mo ago
  I'm sure someone smarter than me has a solution. Those papers you're required to sign are generally the result of regulation. Some law got passed that say "you can't share info unless you get signed permission". The person dreaming up the law thought that would be enough to stop getting them to share info. But, even if they cared about privacy, they don't want to increase all their expenses and run their own IT department so they contract out for 3rd party billing, 3rd party document infra, etc etc. Like if they wanted to store your appointment in MS Word 365 or Google Docs, suddenly the regulation kicks in. They're not going build a document sharing platform to get their job done just so they can meet the regs. They're just going to get you to sign that they can do what they need. As one example, I went to a doctor, he ordered an x-ray. I went over to the x-ray company then back to my doctor. He pulled up the x-ray immediately. He's only able to do that because I signed that he can share my info with the x-ray company and visa-versa. Again, I don't have a solution. No regulation = he'd probably share my data. But regulation = he gets me to sign so he can legit provide the service, and still shared my data (Because I signed). So all the regs did is make visiting the doctor more annoying, and add $$$$ to push all the paperwork around.
  - ghssds 3mo ago
    > They're not going build a document sharing platform to get their job done just so they can meet the regs. What is so hard in respecting the spirit of the law?
    - throw1234567891 3mo ago
      There are many dollars in between.
goosejuice 3mo ago
My wife recently gave birth. When we arrived at the hospital her contractions were close enough together for her to be admitted. They proceeded to give my wife a 10 page or so consent form to sign. I can't imagine anyone reading that. I also can't imagine them not admitting someone over it.
drstewart 3mo ago
Can you cite the especially in the US part? Maybe use Bolivia, Kosovo, and Indonesia as some random global comparisons.
- engeljohnb 3mo ago
  You're right, it would've been better to say "at least far as my experience in the US."
gblargg 3mo ago
Doesn't the right to free association solve this? Don't patronize companies that do this.
- engeljohnb 3mo ago
  I'm a traveling healthcare worker, which means every 3 months is both a new contract for work and a new lease for a rental to stay at. So if I'm not willing to complete several hours of training modules uncompensated and before the start date of my contract, I'm within my rights to refuse. But this violation of most states' codes is common practice, and when I inform a new workplace that I'm not going to do it, they tell me it's "required," and the part they're careful not to put in writing is that my contract will be canceled if I make a fuss (there is almost always a clause in these contracts saying they can cancel any time for any reason). So just move onto the next job, right? But the market is very feast-or-famine. It's just not smart to assert my rights during one of the famine periods. Similarly, if I'm not willing to sign a lease for a rental saying my landlord is entitled to seize and sell all of my property for being even a minute late on rent, I've now considerably limited my housing options, which is not good when I have a new job that starts in two weeks. If that landlord then goes and tells all their landlord friends that I'm "difficult," I could be completely fucked. Sure, it's "solved." It sucks anyway.
  - gblargg 3mo ago
    I thought we were talking about companies that spam you if you're a customer. I don't think we need government force involved.
CurryFurry 3mo ago
[flagged]
21asdffdsa12 3mo ago
This, honestly is what i expected AI to challenge heads-on- because that is what its ideal for- little agents arguing for the consumer, the customer, the citizen. In the government offices, these constant advocates could undo all that damage faster then the companies can pile up anti-service moats.

solid_fuel 3mo ago

> Unfortunately, especially in the US, exercising your rights, or even just reading every paper you're expected to put your name to, not only constantly pisses people off for some reason Yup. It's particularly sad seeing other people in this very thread talking about how they would "ban this customer for life" just for knowing their rights. I think it's pathetic that this has become the culture amongst large swathes of Americans - especially ones who consider themselves patriotic. This country was founded in rebellion and the assertion of our rights, and somehow the exact opposite is now the ideal of many citizens now.

trhway 3mo ago
>I think it's pathetic that this has become the culture amongst large swathes of Americans - especially ones who consider themselves patriotic. This country was founded in rebellion and the assertion of our rights, and somehow the exact opposite is now the ideal of many citizens now. DHS is putting on the domestic terrorists watch list those people who took parts in the protests. Or at minimum threatens to put. And if you google a bit more you'd see that it isn't limited to ICE. Any dissent is perceived by the current government in a similar "terrorism" way. For majority of population that would completely chill any desire to assert rights. https://www.markey.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/letter_to_dhs_on_domestic_terrorist_database.pdf https://www.markey.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/letter_to_dhs_on... "U.S. Immigrations and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officers and senior Trump administration officials have repeatedly suggested that the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is building a “domestic terrorists” database comprising information on U.S. citizens protesting ICE’s actions in recent weeks. ... In recent weeks, DHS personnel and senior officials have repeatedly stated that the agency is engaged in efforts to monitor, catalog, and intimidate individuals engaged in peaceful protests"
- solid_fuel 3mo ago
  Oh I’m well aware. It’s reprehensible and I am demanding accountability from my elected politicians. The only way we’ll see someone answer for these crimes, though, is if enough Americans give a shit to get off their fucking asses and actually put people into office who will bring change.
- somenameforme 3mo ago
  The current government? Don't let partisanship blind one to how dumb things are. The Occupy Wallstreet protests were extensively surveilled and harassed [1], and it was a vastly more peaceful protest movement. Had it gained more traction there's a 100% chance Obama would've happily greenlit COINTELPRO [2] 2011. Such actions were already being effectively carried out in any case. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street#Government_crackdowns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street#Government_... [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
- aand16 3mo ago
  Pretty sure nobody is worried about peaceful protests.
treis 3mo ago
I don't know that signing up for a rewards club and then complaining that you're being marketed to is quite the platonic ideal of rebellion you make it out to be.

deepsun 3mo ago

Once I rented an apartment in US, and the documents said that they can make videos, pictures and audio recordings of me and my family, and use it for their own purposes including commercial. I objected, but their position was that no one is going to involve legal department for me, and I am free to go away.

bsder 3mo ago
> and I am free to go away. This is the crux of the problem when landlords are allowed to form or join an "association" that gets too pervasive. This was at the heart of the RealPage lawsuits.
smcleod 3mo ago
Pretty sure that's a violation of fundamental human rights as it's your place of living. Surely that can't be legal, even in the US can it?
- monkpit 3mo ago
  It doesn’t mean _inside_ the apartment. It means if they decide to film a commercial and you’re walking your dog in the background, they don’t have to ask you.
  - thayne 3mo ago
    That is probably why it is in there, and probably how it would be used in practice. But these types of documents are almost written to be as broad and ask you to give up as many rights as possible.
  - smcleod 3mo ago
    Oh right, that's not so bad. Isn't that just being part of modern society? It would be nice to opt to never be recorded but also, it's outside.
  - bigiain 3mo ago
    That sounds a lot like a rationalization desperately grasping at "surely it's not as insane as it sounds, what it _must_ mean is ... " I would want to read and perhaps get legal advice before relying on that interpretation - and before finding I signed over rights to my landlord to make candid porn of me and all his other tenants.

uproarchat 3mo ago

I am that person that reads every line of the contracts I sign, including ToS and PP. I appreciate that I can tell who it rubs the wrong way, because it tells me who will shake my hand without intending to honor their word. It changed the way I write these documents as well, the last ToS and PP I wrote can each be read in a single breath.

anitil 3mo ago
How do you manage the situation socially? I had a very important document with a very expensive professional booked for about 10 minutes. No way I could actually read it in that time - what would you do?
- ambicapter 3mo ago
  Not GP, but probably ask them to send me the contract ahead of time, and explain that you need time to read it.
- uproarchat 3mo ago
  "I appreciate the opportunity to work on this with you, I need to give this the time that it deserves to make sure I can honor the commitments in the contract." Always maintain your integrity, a big part of that is honoring your word. Integrity is the only thing you're born with in this life, and if you're lucky you take it with you on the way out. Any person worth getting into contracts with will appreciate the value in that.
AlexanderHanff 3mo ago
That simply isn't possible - you might like to think you read everything but research has shown that simply reading the terms and conditions of the top 100 websites amounts to a colossal amount of time (if you look at Prof. Lorie Cranor's research on this from around 2008, even back then the cost to the US in lost time was to the tune of trillions of dollars - now, they are much much worse than they were 18 years ago. The terms and conditions for Tetris on Android were longer than the entire works of Tolkien when combined. So yes, it would be nice to read all of these things, but we simply do not have the time available to do so.

cheese_van 3mo ago

Went to a new doctor. As part of the check-in process, I was asked to "sign" a little digital pad, so, as I was told, they could properly use my insurance. I asked to see the hard copy of what I was signing and they couldn't find one. Then, for some reason, they were unable to print one. I gave up and scribbled my sig with my finger and then was seen by a doctor. It's maddening.

socalgal2 3mo ago
I'm sure someone smarter than me has a solution. Those papers you're required to sign are generally the result of regulation. Some law got passed that say "you can't share info unless you get signed permission". The person dreaming up the law thought that would be enough to stop getting them to share info. But, even if they cared about privacy, they don't want to increase all their expenses and run their own IT department so they contract out for 3rd party billing, 3rd party document infra, etc etc. Like if they wanted to store your appointment in MS Word 365 or Google Docs, suddenly the regulation kicks in. They're not going build a document sharing platform to get their job done just so they can meet the regs. They're just going to get you to sign that they can do what they need. As one example, I went to a doctor, he ordered an x-ray. I went over to the x-ray company then back to my doctor. He pulled up the x-ray immediately. He's only able to do that because I signed that he can share my info with the x-ray company and visa-versa. Again, I don't have a solution. No regulation = he'd probably share my data. But regulation = he gets me to sign so he can legit provide the service, and still shared my data (Because I signed). So all the regs did is make visiting the doctor more annoying, and add $$$$ to push all the paperwork around.
- ghssds 3mo ago
  > They're not going build a document sharing platform to get their job done just so they can meet the regs. What is so hard in respecting the spirit of the law?
  - throw1234567891 3mo ago
    There are many dollars in between.

goosejuice 3mo ago

My wife recently gave birth. When we arrived at the hospital her contractions were close enough together for her to be admitted. They proceeded to give my wife a 10 page or so consent form to sign. I can't imagine anyone reading that. I also can't imagine them not admitting someone over it.

drstewart 3mo ago

Can you cite the especially in the US part? Maybe use Bolivia, Kosovo, and Indonesia as some random global comparisons.

engeljohnb 3mo ago
You're right, it would've been better to say "at least far as my experience in the US."

gblargg 3mo ago

Doesn't the right to free association solve this? Don't patronize companies that do this.

engeljohnb 3mo ago
I'm a traveling healthcare worker, which means every 3 months is both a new contract for work and a new lease for a rental to stay at. So if I'm not willing to complete several hours of training modules uncompensated and before the start date of my contract, I'm within my rights to refuse. But this violation of most states' codes is common practice, and when I inform a new workplace that I'm not going to do it, they tell me it's "required," and the part they're careful not to put in writing is that my contract will be canceled if I make a fuss (there is almost always a clause in these contracts saying they can cancel any time for any reason). So just move onto the next job, right? But the market is very feast-or-famine. It's just not smart to assert my rights during one of the famine periods. Similarly, if I'm not willing to sign a lease for a rental saying my landlord is entitled to seize and sell all of my property for being even a minute late on rent, I've now considerably limited my housing options, which is not good when I have a new job that starts in two weeks. If that landlord then goes and tells all their landlord friends that I'm "difficult," I could be completely fucked. Sure, it's "solved." It sucks anyway.
- gblargg 3mo ago
  I thought we were talking about companies that spam you if you're a customer. I don't think we need government force involved.

CurryFurry 3mo ago

[flagged]

21asdffdsa12 3mo ago

This, honestly is what i expected AI to challenge heads-on- because that is what its ideal for- little agents arguing for the consumer, the customer, the citizen. In the government offices, these constant advocates could undo all that damage faster then the companies can pile up anti-service moats.