10 ms·

Maybe a personal analysis: It's a trend that is growing all over Europe. It's the equivalent of overtourism and a problem for the ruling parties (except the SVP

by abc03 3mo ago

Maybe a personal analysis: It's a trend that is growing all over Europe. It's the equivalent of overtourism and a problem for the ruling parties (except the SVP that proposed it). Expect it to continue quite soon in Switzerland and other European countries (France, Germany etc.). Of course it doesn't make sense to curb immigration at 10 Mio and many know it. It was also for many a vote against the ruling parties. Although Switzerland is an immigration country, Swiss don't think this way. It's more farmer/alpine style: Welcome guests but expect them to leave again. Many Swiss also don't interact with foreigners a lot, including myself (besides at work). Many of my friends don't want to give up their prosperity. They are fairly advanced in their career and it's more about enjoying life. So for many of them it's more a rational decision than really a belief we should have more immigration. As long as I can benefit, it's good. For younger people it may be different. My wife, who is not native Swiss, was in favor. And compared to other countries, I think Xenophobia is low.

Avicebron 3mo ago
How are the job prospects and housing prices? Switzerland is beautiful and I would gladly move there for six or so equivalent figures..
- FabCH 3mo ago
  If you are non-EU, you will not get a work permit. If you are EU or do get a work permit, you will not get housing. The vote was for a reason…
  - Arodex 3mo ago
    You can get housing, you have to trade money for time and commute with the (frequent and reliable) public transportation. Meanwhile the parlement and the anti+immigration far-right vote all the time to increase landlord rights and margins. Most of them are landlords, of course...
    - FabCH 3mo ago
      I mean, Kt. ZH also had the Wohnungsinitiative today, because not even Swiss people can find housing in ZH anymore. Let’s be realistic and admit that landlords already prioritize someone with history of renting in the country and it’s pretty fair to say that new immigrants will struggle to get housing. Even if you come on a FAANG salary, you will not be able to buy your way in that easily.
      - brainwad 3mo ago
        > Even if you come on a FAANG salary, you will not be able to buy your way in that easily. Americans at Google Zürich do it all the time.
  - hiq 3mo ago
    Both of these are wrong. Non-EU means it's harder to get a permit, especially without working experience, but it's not impossible either. Housing is difficult in cities like Zurich but calling it impossible is stretching it, especially if one is fine with a longer commute.
- stephbook 3mo ago
  They pay incredibly well, but their work culture (vacation, protections for parents etc) is atrocious. They're on par with Japan/South Korea. You get bonus points for commuting across the German border and utilizing our cheap prices. Don't forget to get the value-added tax refunded!
  - Lanolderen 3mo ago
    Meat trafficking over the border is one of my hobbies.
JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
> It's a trend that is growing all over Europe The current system permitting freedom of movement across the continent while devolving immigration policy entirely to members creates a fundamental tension the EU needs to resolve. Because otherwise, Berlin can basically dictate EU immigration single handedly, which is bound to generate backlash even if they run a perfect programme.
- viking123 3mo ago
  [flagged]
  - JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
    > Western Europe will be a massive powder keg in 20 years Western Europe has been a powder keg for at least three millennia. The only thing keeping a cap on it recently was American hegemony. (EDIT: to be clear, American hegemony is waning. The powder keg is uncapped, and we’re one of the parties throwing in matches.)
    - inigyou 3mo ago
      America is who's propping up all the far right parties now. America wants a destable, fractured Europe. Russia too, but America has more funds.
      - JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
        > America is who's propping up all the far right parties now Oh, to be clear, yes.
  - mrkeen 3mo ago
    While they're at it, they should kick out the French, the Germans, the Italians, and any other immigrants refusing to speak Swiss.
    - 3mo ago
viking123 3mo ago
[flagged]
- inigyou 3mo ago
  Does Switzerland hate Indians or something?
  - theodric 3mo ago
    Without revealing too much...I hired one when I worked in a senior role at a major financial institution, and apparently some (older Swiss) people in the team called him "curry person" to his face and told him he wasn't really [demonym for his naturalized European nationality]. So that was cool and nice.
    - inigyou 3mo ago
      What's wrong with curry? Curry is great.
- Arodex 3mo ago
  Pure bullshit. Even the Swiss tabloid don't invent "rumours" as ludicrous as your anti-indian lie.
  - epolanski 3mo ago
    The amount of xenophobia, generally coming from very non-native, non-Cherokee or very non-Apache American individuals is absurd. _Immigration is only cool as long as it's my favourite ethnic groups_ state of mind.
    - 1659447091 3mo ago
      > The amount of xenophobia, generally coming from very non-native, non-Cherokee or very non-Apache American individuals is absurd. You may want to clear or reset your AI chat context. Your earlier reply about its not "Crazy Horse or Geronimo sitting in the white house" Really did a number on its output regarding Indians here -- its not the Cherokee that some swiss worry about over-immigrating to their country.
plufz 3mo ago
Can you explain why you think xenophobia is low? My experience as a swed is that xenophobia and trying to avoid immigration often go hand in hand. You do not have a large Swiss right populist semi racist party like most other European countries have?
- abc03 3mo ago
  In my experience, Swiss don't like criminals, unemployed people and people showing openly their religion. They negatively associate certain nationalities with stereotypes (e.g. Albanians, Maroccans etc.). If you are a representative of these groups, yes, it will be a problem. Violence towards foreigners is, compared to other countries, does not exist. Also with other nationalities, it is very different. Some people don't like Germans (that's also historically of course). However, with Germans near the boder it is often not a problem because they are more similar (and know how Swiss behave). With people from Berlin, many Swiss have not much in common. My wife is visible not Swiss and she never encountered raciscm (quite the contrary, she gets more free products at local stores than me because people recognize her). She also likes to buy tomatoes only from Switzerland. It is all how you behave in my experience. To the SVP, it is quite a different between the party and representative that are in the government. They are considered moderate due to the political system in Switzerland.
  - tribaal 3mo ago
    The SVP is not considered "moderate". They are a far-right party. The fact that they are wide spread and gather a lot of votes does not make them "moderate". Source: am Swiss
    - brainwad 3mo ago
      Well, they are "moderate" in that they are in the Bundesrat, unlike a real fringe party like EDU or FPS (or PdA on the left).
  - persedes 3mo ago
    As an anecdote re Germans: A friend of mine did an Auslandssemester there and was surprised to see "No Germans" signs for some of the housing options. Always makes me chuckle as an example how "relative" xenophobia is.
LaurensBER 3mo ago
> And compared to other countries, I think Xenophobia is low I would agree and also suggest that initiatives like this play a large role in doing so. While there's a lot of bullshit arguments coming from the "yes" camp they do make some reasonable points and it's important that we discuss them to show what the trade-offs are. I cannot speak for all Swiss but knowing that it was a democratic decision to continue with some, high skilled, immigration makes it far easier to accept than if some government employee in Bern would've made that decision single handed.
seydor 3mo ago
We ve been hearing that the trend is growing for decades now but it's failed to achieve anything via popular support. If anything there is anti-immigrant fatigue and indifference. It did provide, however a convenient scarecrow that helped to hide under the rug the mountain of bad policies that are rendering european countries irrelevant economic backwaters.

by abc03 3mo ago

Avicebron 3mo ago

How are the job prospects and housing prices? Switzerland is beautiful and I would gladly move there for six or so equivalent figures..

FabCH 3mo ago
If you are non-EU, you will not get a work permit. If you are EU or do get a work permit, you will not get housing. The vote was for a reason…
- Arodex 3mo ago
  You can get housing, you have to trade money for time and commute with the (frequent and reliable) public transportation. Meanwhile the parlement and the anti+immigration far-right vote all the time to increase landlord rights and margins. Most of them are landlords, of course...
  - FabCH 3mo ago
    I mean, Kt. ZH also had the Wohnungsinitiative today, because not even Swiss people can find housing in ZH anymore. Let’s be realistic and admit that landlords already prioritize someone with history of renting in the country and it’s pretty fair to say that new immigrants will struggle to get housing. Even if you come on a FAANG salary, you will not be able to buy your way in that easily.
    - brainwad 3mo ago
      > Even if you come on a FAANG salary, you will not be able to buy your way in that easily. Americans at Google Zürich do it all the time.
- hiq 3mo ago
  Both of these are wrong. Non-EU means it's harder to get a permit, especially without working experience, but it's not impossible either. Housing is difficult in cities like Zurich but calling it impossible is stretching it, especially if one is fine with a longer commute.
stephbook 3mo ago
They pay incredibly well, but their work culture (vacation, protections for parents etc) is atrocious. They're on par with Japan/South Korea. You get bonus points for commuting across the German border and utilizing our cheap prices. Don't forget to get the value-added tax refunded!
- Lanolderen 3mo ago
  Meat trafficking over the border is one of my hobbies.

JumpCrisscross 3mo ago

> It's a trend that is growing all over Europe The current system permitting freedom of movement across the continent while devolving immigration policy entirely to members creates a fundamental tension the EU needs to resolve. Because otherwise, Berlin can basically dictate EU immigration single handedly, which is bound to generate backlash even if they run a perfect programme.

viking123 3mo ago
[flagged]
- JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
  > Western Europe will be a massive powder keg in 20 years Western Europe has been a powder keg for at least three millennia. The only thing keeping a cap on it recently was American hegemony. (EDIT: to be clear, American hegemony is waning. The powder keg is uncapped, and we’re one of the parties throwing in matches.)
  - inigyou 3mo ago
    America is who's propping up all the far right parties now. America wants a destable, fractured Europe. Russia too, but America has more funds.
    - JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
      > America is who's propping up all the far right parties now Oh, to be clear, yes.
- mrkeen 3mo ago
  While they're at it, they should kick out the French, the Germans, the Italians, and any other immigrants refusing to speak Swiss.
  - 3mo ago

viking123 3mo ago

[flagged]

inigyou 3mo ago
Does Switzerland hate Indians or something?
- theodric 3mo ago
  Without revealing too much...I hired one when I worked in a senior role at a major financial institution, and apparently some (older Swiss) people in the team called him "curry person" to his face and told him he wasn't really [demonym for his naturalized European nationality]. So that was cool and nice.
  - inigyou 3mo ago
    What's wrong with curry? Curry is great.
Arodex 3mo ago
Pure bullshit. Even the Swiss tabloid don't invent "rumours" as ludicrous as your anti-indian lie.
- epolanski 3mo ago
  The amount of xenophobia, generally coming from very non-native, non-Cherokee or very non-Apache American individuals is absurd. _Immigration is only cool as long as it's my favourite ethnic groups_ state of mind.
  - 1659447091 3mo ago
    > The amount of xenophobia, generally coming from very non-native, non-Cherokee or very non-Apache American individuals is absurd. You may want to clear or reset your AI chat context. Your earlier reply about its not "Crazy Horse or Geronimo sitting in the white house" Really did a number on its output regarding Indians here -- its not the Cherokee that some swiss worry about over-immigrating to their country.

plufz 3mo ago

Can you explain why you think xenophobia is low? My experience as a swed is that xenophobia and trying to avoid immigration often go hand in hand. You do not have a large Swiss right populist semi racist party like most other European countries have?

abc03 3mo ago
In my experience, Swiss don't like criminals, unemployed people and people showing openly their religion. They negatively associate certain nationalities with stereotypes (e.g. Albanians, Maroccans etc.). If you are a representative of these groups, yes, it will be a problem. Violence towards foreigners is, compared to other countries, does not exist. Also with other nationalities, it is very different. Some people don't like Germans (that's also historically of course). However, with Germans near the boder it is often not a problem because they are more similar (and know how Swiss behave). With people from Berlin, many Swiss have not much in common. My wife is visible not Swiss and she never encountered raciscm (quite the contrary, she gets more free products at local stores than me because people recognize her). She also likes to buy tomatoes only from Switzerland. It is all how you behave in my experience. To the SVP, it is quite a different between the party and representative that are in the government. They are considered moderate due to the political system in Switzerland.
- tribaal 3mo ago
  The SVP is not considered "moderate". They are a far-right party. The fact that they are wide spread and gather a lot of votes does not make them "moderate". Source: am Swiss
  - brainwad 3mo ago
    Well, they are "moderate" in that they are in the Bundesrat, unlike a real fringe party like EDU or FPS (or PdA on the left).
- persedes 3mo ago
  As an anecdote re Germans: A friend of mine did an Auslandssemester there and was surprised to see "No Germans" signs for some of the housing options. Always makes me chuckle as an example how "relative" xenophobia is.

LaurensBER 3mo ago

> And compared to other countries, I think Xenophobia is low I would agree and also suggest that initiatives like this play a large role in doing so. While there's a lot of bullshit arguments coming from the "yes" camp they do make some reasonable points and it's important that we discuss them to show what the trade-offs are. I cannot speak for all Swiss but knowing that it was a democratic decision to continue with some, high skilled, immigration makes it far easier to accept than if some government employee in Bern would've made that decision single handed.

seydor 3mo ago

We ve been hearing that the trend is growing for decades now but it's failed to achieve anything via popular support. If anything there is anti-immigrant fatigue and indifference. It did provide, however a convenient scarecrow that helped to hide under the rug the mountain of bad policies that are rendering european countries irrelevant economic backwaters.