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PIX from Brazil is even better, to be honest. But this is a big improvement over online CC payment. I lived in the NL and Brazil, so I can compare the two, and

• sschueller 4mo ago
  PIX is also better because it gives control back to the central bank (as it was with cash) and not private industry although they are providing the service. The central bank controls what payments are permitted by what laws exist, not some risk management system that has decided that your legal purchase is too risky or some foreign state has applied sanctions against you.
  • philipallstar 4mo ago
    That sounds a little authoritarian for many Western countries, I imagine.
    • somewhatgoated 4mo ago
      I guess it comes down to who you would trust more - your own government which you have some control over via elections or some (potentially multinational) corporation which you have exactly zero control over?
      • philipallstar 4mo ago
        It's the other way around. You have choice with a company, and people can switch provider very quickly if they are bad. You have very, very coarse-grained control with the government every few years.
        • delfinom 4mo ago
          You only have a potential choice until a company buys out all its competitors and surpresses the rest.
        • vrganj 4mo ago
          I've moved countries five times in my life. I still haven't been able to fully get rid of my dependency on Big Tech or the Visa/Mastercard duopoly.
        • NalNezumi 4mo ago
          In the context of mastercard and visa being a duopoly and the recent debacle such as certain games being removed from steam because they threatened to not allow stream to use the card payment system, it's a pretty bad take. Not that central bank won't be able to do the same, but it would have to follow laws set by the government rather than law+whatever the card companies decide to.
        • ambicapter 4mo ago
          Agree to disagree. Lock-in is a thing that companies design for.
          • philipallstar 4mo ago
            And a government is pre-locked in.
        • bildung 4mo ago
          Ok, I choose to not use Visa/Mastercard in the US, and I want to subscribe to some saas. What do I do now? Or do you mean "choice" as in "you can always choose not the breathe or eat"?
          • CobaltFire 4mo ago
            To be pedantic American Express and Discover exist. But I agree with your meaning. We are beholden to some third party no matter how we move in the current situation.
    • sschueller 4mo ago
      I trust my government (Switzerland) way more to do the thing that is right for the people and the law then some private company that has the primary goal of making money. It doesn't mean that governments don't make mistakes but the primary goal is to serve its people. That is what government is for in a functioning democracy. A functioning government is of the people for the people.
      • JumpCrisscross 4mo ago
        > I trust my government (Switzerland) I do, too. I’m not sure I trust Brussels.
        • surgical_fire 4mo ago
          I certainly trust the EU a lot more than I trust US corporations.
          • Lionga 4mo ago
            Considering the head of EZB is a convicted criminal with, lets call it interesting, letters to the convicted criminal Sarkozy I am not sure what is plague and what cholera.
            • dvfjsdhgfv 4mo ago
              Taken into account than of two convicted criminals, Sarkozy went to prison and will probably be sent there again, whereas Trump is running a big country, I'm pretty sure which is which.
            • wsng 4mo ago
              Lagarde is not a convicted criminal. She was convicted for negligence, but this is not a criminal conviction.
              • throwaway2037 4mo ago
                [flagged]
    • moralestapia 4mo ago
      Brazil is on the West, fyi.
      • dragontamer 4mo ago
        The new alignment isnt East vs West... But North vs Global South, which Brazil sees itself a part of the South.
        • moralestapia 4mo ago
          ??? Wrong thread? The comment I see reads like this: "That sounds a little authoritarian for many Western countries, I imagine."
          • Nerwesta 4mo ago
            Yeah the concept of "Western" is a relic of the Cold war, just like Western Europe / Eastern Europe ( past some countries being genuinely there ) It's still taught like that to younger people, but definitely shouldn't.
        • dvfjsdhgfv 4mo ago
          > The new alignment isnt East vs West... But North vs Global South, which Brazil sees itself a part of the South. Where's Russia and Australia then?
          • dragontamer 4mo ago
            And Cuba was in the West during the Cold war. We knew what East vs West meant, it's more a figurative phrase than anything. Today's alignment is shaping up to be North and South. Not quite 'versus' like the Cold war was.
      • gloosx 4mo ago
        on the West of what? Culturally and historically it's a Western country, yes, but politically and economically it's an Eastern country – founding member of BRICS and a developing economy. I think the author of the parent comment used "Western" term referring to ideological and economic grouping
    • amelius 4mo ago
      > That sounds a little authoritarian for many Western countries, I imagine. If you ever had your account blocked by Apple or Google, you know exactly why a government is the better option. At least you have the rule of law on your side. Big companies are the authoritarian situation, not the government.
      • PowerElectronix 4mo ago
        It deems to me that the rule of law is easier to apply to third parties than to the government that is in charge of administering it
        • mothballed 4mo ago
          This reminds me of how all the drug dealers use USPS because it actually requires a warrant to open the package. If the government has to enforce banking KYC/AML itself they won't be able to hide behind all the third party fuck-fuck games and they'll get sued into oblivion. I'm sure they'll play the normal federal court and sovereign fuck-fuck games but it would be glorious trying to watch them try to enforce the BSA and Patriot act bullshit while not being able to hide behind the auspice it's just a private bank collecting the data.
        • amelius 4mo ago
          Not if your government properly implements separation of powers, as is the case in most Western countries. Yes, I'm aware someone is trying to undermine it in the U.S. currently. That doesn't mean that companies are a safe haven suddenly.
          • PowerElectronix 4mo ago
            Separation of powers is easy to erode and we are seeing that happening in a lot of western countries. Companies are, of course, never going to be trustworthy, but they at least can go out of business if they go full dystopian.
            • 4mo ago
    • RobotToaster 4mo ago
      The choice is between the ECB and visa/mastercard (who are de-facto controlled by the US government). It's a shit situation we're in, but the ECB seems like the lesser evil.
    • voxleone 4mo ago
      [dead]
    • VerifiedReports 4mo ago
      Especially now in the (former) USA.
  • jeroenhd 4mo ago
    Wero is run by the banks themselves, which are in turn controlled/restricted by the central bank. I don't think there's a meaningful difference on that front. The European ECB isn't really in a position to directly offer services to people, and relying on every country's central banks to cooperate will take decades.
    • wslh 4mo ago
      The difference is clearly that banks have a different agenda from central banks. SWIFT is a cooperative of banks also but it seems that some central banks endeavours are better. BTW Argentina created an innovation back in the early 2000s as a product of a crisis. It was implemented in record time and transfers were immediate back then and improving. It's not run by the central banks though.
      • econ 4mo ago
        Bit like Moldova automating government because there simply was no money for armies of overpaid burocrates.
    • underlipton 4mo ago
      The central bank is governed by a direct mandate from the government (and, effectively, the entire population, when dealing with a democracy). Commercial and investment banks are beholden to their board and shareholders. There's a clear conflict of interest in trying to dump a service that should be available to everyone onto a business with narrower concerns.
      • jeroenhd 4mo ago
        I have been using iDeal for many years now and have yet to see any of the downsides of it being a product of a commercial bank. Perhaps it's a difference in banking culture between different countries; I would certainly not put the same trust and faith in a Wero alternative set up by American banks, that's for sure. Banks are beholden to policy from the central bank and financial authorities. Payment fees are capped, payment processing terms aren't a free-for all, and the power of individual banks is kept in check. The people doe have a voice in all of this, just not in the direct implementation process.
  • dadoum 4mo ago
    And that's the whole reason why Wero has been made I think. It's because the ECB wants to advance on their digital euro plans due to sovereignty concerns, and I think this push is to dismiss that argument.
  • dataflow 4mo ago
    > The central bank controls what payments are permitted by what laws exist, not some risk management system that has decided that your legal purchase is too risky or some foreign state has applied sanctions against you. That sounds worse to be honest. You're essentially asking for the government to be not only aware of but also able to control all digital payments. That upends how money has worked over (literally) millenia, and is an incredible risk to take. Giving someone in government the ability to block someone's payments and trusting they won't abuse it might be fine as long as good people remain in power, but do you really want to bet the entire nation's ability to live life on that? Furthermore, wouldn't determining if a payment is legal require prying into details of the transaction that may violate your privacy? And if they make an incorrect determination based on stuff that really wasn't their business in the first place, they now have the force of government behind them, going far beyond merely declining the transaction. I would think what you should want to advocate for is a system that cannot block payments (at least domestically) just like with cash, and enforcement either happens prior to enrollment, or after the fact through some other traditional law enforcement mechanism (warrants, etc.).
    • dgoldstein0 4mo ago
      Not intending to defend either system but private financial institutions basically end up deputized as enforcement arms of anti money laundering and sanctions in the US and probably other countries where the payments systems are privatized. That's a why every bank has a big compliance department - the laws say a lot about who and what they can serve and they have to be on top of it. Which yes means sometimes legit transactions that match rules meant to catch money laundering and other shady business get blocked or flagged. Sometimes out of avoidance of legal risk, rather than actual certainly anything illegal is happening. I don't know if the centralized government implementation would be any better in that regard, but at least you could complain to the government instead of having a bank hide behind a law they didn't write but have to enforce.
      • michaelt 4mo ago
        You're right that politicians can pressure private financial institutions into cutting off anyone they don't like. For example Operation Choke Point [1] which cut off legal-but-scandalous businesses' access to the financial system, and getting WikiLeaks debanked for publishing material that made the government look bad. But some might see that as a sign you need more separation between the state and payment networks, rather than less. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point
• pprotas 4mo ago
  Tikkie has a different usecase. It's meant for smaller payments between individuals In fact, you can pay a Tikkie using iDEAL/Wero
  • cfontes 4mo ago
    PIX is for everything, but Indeed Tikkie is more a p2p tool.
• Imustaskforhelp 4mo ago
  (I haven't tried PIX so not sure) but UPI is really great too and I think that Pix is similar to UPI and UPI was launched by India nearly 4 years ago than brazil. Anyways, one of the things that I am interested about in payment systems is say creating cross-payments between Pix,UPI and Wero. UPI is already there for a few countries and there are more trials which are happening and my brother was a bit involved in trying to add UPI to london. (I think it was some efforts by his college perhaps, I am not sure completely.) For India, the largest points are remittances and for other nations, it gives a really well built payment system and integrates it to more economies. UPI is accepted in seven countries: Bhutan, France, Mauritius, Nepal, Singapore, Sri Lanka, and the United Arab Emirates (UAE).
• pimterry 4mo ago
  Wero does have recurring payments planned too (apparently for end of 2026), seems like they're well aware of PIX and racing hard to get into exactly the same space.
  • noirscape 4mo ago
    It's in theory already possible with iDeal from what I can tell (I've seen companies that use subscriptions set up an initial iDeal payment and then convert it into a regular recurring SEPA Direct Debit), but I'm going to assume that the process is kind of messy since I haven't seen many companies implement the system in that way. Direct Debit is very nice, largely because your bank manages the subscription; companies have to declare the payment ahead of time and if you get balance mixed up for some reason, then the bank will just do the payment whenever your balance is correct if it happens within a week. I've had credit cards decline on subscriptions before because I didn't have enough loaded up on them. Never had that issue with SEPA. Either that or "credit cards just work", so very few entities bothered until now.
• somewhatgoated 4mo ago
  PIX should be the gold standard for this - it’s works perfectly for all use cases that I can think of. Hell even the homeless people around here take donations in PIX, but you can also buy a house with it. Zero fees involved
  • testing22321 4mo ago
    > Zero fees involved Won’t someone think of the profits!
    • rescbr 4mo ago
      Zero fees for an individual, by regulation. Companies pay for PIX usage. Some banks waive these fees, and it is comparable to debit card transaction fees.
      • tialaramex 4mo ago
        And magically things are much cheaper when you do this, both because they're actually cheaper without individual billing and associated overhead, and because the few larger payers have a powerful incentive to ensure they pay as little as possible.
• sam_lowry_ 4mo ago
  Nah, BLIK from Poland was there earlier and is in many ways better, Wero was unfairly lobbied for by the old European guard, so most of Eastern Europe walked away. They are now hesitantly joining Wero, supporting it only to downplay and to lobby ECB for an API platform and not for a product.
  • gpvos 4mo ago
    I've used BLIK once, for an online payment from the Netherlands to Poland, and for that it was terrible. I assume it's much better integrated into the Polish system.
    • pndy 4mo ago
      Every bank supports it - there are quick money transfers by phone number (as long such number is registered as a payment recipient within Blik) and kind of cheque that can be redeemed using ATM. And of course you can do standard withdraw, deposit operations with Blik using ATM as well. POS terminals supports it along with standard card and contactless payment options. Blik supports one-time, recurring and deferred payments (that last thing is just being implemented by few banks but probably will be available everywhere soon), and one-click ones that don't require PIN verification. I'm not 100% sure but the only thing that's not possible is charge-back - if you pay with Blik, you're left with a standard complaint for payment that caused problems. Last year I was using Blik to pay for my taxi to some 80-year old private driver because I didn't had enough cash - he was totally fine with it and as I noticed his car had even a Blik sticker. Not sure how other European systems work like but I assume these are pretty similar in terms of functionality. The 6 digit temporary codes generated by your bank app and verified by secondary PIN will stay here along contactless payments done by cards or phones, watches.
      • gpvos 4mo ago
        I think a nice thing about BLIK is that it actually worked in my case, even though it was cumbersome. Using iDEAL from a Polish account just isn't going to happen.
  • 4mo ago
• krthr 4mo ago
  I think Colombian's Bre-B system took heavy inspiration on PIX. It is amazing and so easy to use.
• SomeUserName432 4mo ago
  > PIX from Brazil is even better, to be honest. You lack the inherent fraud, bankruptcy and other malicious actor protection that Visa/Mastercard provides. Bought something online and didn't receive your product? With PIX you're SOL, with Visa/Mastercard you get a chargeback.
  • Aspos 4mo ago
    This looks as a benefit on the surface, but it is not. In the end everybody loses -- the bank, the network, the customer, the merchant.
  • functionmouse 4mo ago
    Yes, but it's a statistically negative sum game for the customer. Visa wouldn't offer such a service if they weren't winning out in the long run, collecting rent on every one of your purchases.
    • SomeUserName432 4mo ago
      I am sure they gain something from it. My Brazillian bank charges me 600% yearly interest on credit card purchases. However, the cost of a lawsuit can quickly offset the costs of a CC. Depending on the state, there may not be a maximum cap on expenses, making lawsuits incredibly expensive. (Whereas having paid by card you could ask for a chargeback instead of needing to sue) It's also a very time consuming ordeal having to sue vendors in these instances.
      • dormento 4mo ago
        Am I mistaken or hasn't that been capped to 100% for a while?
        • SomeUserName432 4mo ago
          The maximum they can take in fees in a 12 month period is 100% of the original sum, having a 600% interest rate just means they get to the 100% cap that much faster. Ensuring that the consumer does not have sufficient time to pay off the debt before it doubles.
• sverhagen 4mo ago
  > you can use it for recurrent payment, split payments, financing, cashout and almost all things a CC can do nowadays But can credit cards really do all those things? You just entrust your credit card number to a party that does it for you, but the credit card system itself isn't taking care of those things like recurring payments.
• gfarah 4mo ago
  Since last year, Colombia has implemented Bre-B, our copy of Brazil’s Pix, and it’s been fantastic. I can’t wait to see it mature to the same level as Pix, and I really hope both systems are eventually linked together.
• throwaway2037 4mo ago
  This is a brilliant response. I love personal anecdotes like this that meaningfully contribute to a better conversation on HN. First: PIX sounds insanely good! I wish I had it where I live. My follow-up question: Can anyone with experience with India's Unified Payments Interface (UPI) comment about capabilities compared to PIX? It is frequently lauded as one of the best e/mobile payment services in the (developing) world.
  • rootsu 4mo ago
    Judging from what I am reading about PIX capabilities, UPI can do everything. It can also allow you to make merchant payments from Rupay credit cards. It also supports automatic recurring payments.
• Fnoord 4mo ago
  iDeal can also be used for recurring payment. I set one up yesterday. If you like Tikkie, you may like bunq as well. This is kind of a problem with Wero though [1]: > The Wero app can be installed on any mobile device or tablet running iOS 16 or later, or Android version 9 or later. We recommend updating your device to the latest version of its operating system for maximum performance, convenience and security. > It is not possible to use Wero via a web browser or on a computer. Why the ** am I constricted to using an app on Android or iOS. Ever heard of laptops? Windows? ChromeOS? macOS? Linux in general? [1] https://support.wero-wallet.eu/hc/en-us/articles/25599074240401-What-devices-support-the-Wero-app https://support.wero-wallet.eu/hc/en-us/articles/25599074240...
  • baq 4mo ago
    banks really like hardware attestation and putting that in laptops and PCs causes serious pushback from people like us here. not an option to not have hardware attestation on mobile - it's been there since day 1, there's nothing to protest against anymore
    • kalleboo 4mo ago
      Although at this point, doesn't Windows 11 require TPM, and Apple has had the Secure Enclave since the T2 Macs...
    • Fnoord 4mo ago
      I wonder if it will work on OSes like SailfishOS, LineageOS, GrapheneOS, and the like.
      • microtonal 4mo ago
        I think for many banks, Wero will be implemented in the banks' apps (like iDEAL currently is). So then the situation is probably the same as now (where most, but not all banking apps work without Play remote attestation).
• F3nd0 4mo ago
  For day-to-day payments, GNU Taler seems like the best option by far, since it protects the customers’ anonymity. (It’s essentially like digital cash.) Unfortunately, only very few banks support it at the moment. https://www.taler.net/en/ https://www.taler.net/en/