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https://vitalik.eth.limo/general/2024/01/31/end.html#section-34:~:text=4 https://vitalik.eth.limo/general/2024/01/31/end.html#section... Vitalik touched upon t

https://vitalik.eth.limo/general/2024/01/31/end.html#section-34:~:text=4 https://vitalik.eth.limo/general/2024/01/31/end.html#section... Vitalik touched upon this briefly in an other-wise long and wide-reaching essay. I think its a good treatment of the topic that the author is talking about. He categorizes the ecosystem broadly into 4 cohorts- [token holders] (which includes investors, speculators, etc.), [pragmatic users] (actual end-users who spend crypto to buy stuff), [intellectuals] (who give the vision and ideology), [builders] (of blockchains, apps, etc.) - These 4 groups come together but with different motivations and there is a gap in understanding between them. Indeed, there is even resistance against trying to reach an understanding - one which plays out in the comments section of every crypto-related post on hn. The author of this twitter-post clearly falls under [intellectual, builder] and has been disillusioned by the speculators from [token-holders]. Yet the [token-holders] are a vital component (as are the other groups) as they fund most of the development and adoption. Ultimately these 4 groups have more in common than not. The challenge going forward is to balance the occasionally conflicting needs of all the 4 groups, which includes checking the excesses of each group, while try to achieve a consensus. (Vitalik provides a nice diagram that maps out what that would look like). Crypto is an experiment in economics and economics is a science as well as a social-science. Anyone looking for a good solution must seek to understand and address the psychology of all the actors involved.

cryptonym 9mo ago
In a casino you have - The gamblers spending a lot on the casino - The people coming in for the fun and spending little money - The owners/C-levels - The operational team Someone from the operational team just learned that business relies only on the first group to be successful.
- brohee 9mo ago
  You forgot the money launderers, in both ecosystems. Casinos are the original tumbler.
  - ethbr1 9mo ago
    'I'm shocked to find that gambling is going on in here.' https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0034583/quotes/?item=qt0429972 https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0034583/quotes/?item=qt0429972
    - JKCalhoun 9mo ago
      "I'm shocked! Shocked…" (The double "shocked" is what makes the quote next-level.)
      - ethbr1 9mo ago
        Doesn't quite translate in text. Figured those who could hear it in their head wouldn't need the extra prompting.
  - mothballed 9mo ago
    That falls under pragmatists
- brianolson 9mo ago
  I worked in blockchain ("builder") for 5 years. I started 'eh, there are speculators, whatever, I build good tech' but finished 'holy crap speculators completely dominate and distort everything, nobody cares about good tech'
  - dukeyukey 9mo ago
    Yep. As much as I can see utility in some crypto, and there are some personalities in respect (e.g. Vitalik) by and large the sector in such a dumpster fire I'm not going anywhere near it. I've got some bitcoin in a Coinbase account, that's as close as I'm getting.
  - FabHK 9mo ago
    > nobody cares about good tech Indeed. For example: Chia is arguably decent tech (better than Bitcoin), built by Bram Cohen (of BitTorrent fame), innovative PoSpace+Time. But nobody cares, it's at #450 in market cap, way down below Doge (#10), $TRUMP (#72), Fartcoin (#144), Melania (#375).
    - underlipton 9mo ago
      The market cap obsession is part of the problem. Can I use it to buy things, easily? That's the only metric that should count if you're looking for practical use, not speculation.
      - NoMoreNicksLeft 9mo ago
        A successful cryptocurrent probably has to start by first having a market that is dissatisfied with the available traditional currencies. If that market were to introduce on (with good tech), then it could immediately see the cryptocurrency used for its intended purpose. At that point, if it avoided the attention of speculators (not forever, just long enough for it to get its feet underneath itself) or could discourage those speculators somehow, what happens then? Is there some other failure mode waiting, or does it take off?
      - wat10000 9mo ago
- Aardwolf 9mo ago
  > Someone from the operational team just learned that business relies only on the first group to be successful. Is there any possibility the presence of the people who are there just for fun still encourages/increases the size of the first group?
  - watwut 9mo ago
    Imo, yes. There are where gamblers come from. They are also providing plausible deniality to gamblers.
- soerxpso 9mo ago
  You also have this quadchotomy in a department store, or in a number of other valuable businesses.
hshdhdhj4444 9mo ago
The only buyers are criminals, sanction evaders, and probably the dumbest people in the world given that the entire crypto ecosystem is focused on one thing and one thing only. Creating the most deflationary monetary system in history.
- zombot 9mo ago
  And also the most unerasable, and hence traceable, system. You can't delete records from a blockchain.
- HighGoldstein 9mo ago
  There are a lot of places in the world where crypto payments are now prevalent, not because users are the "dumbest people in the world" but because they have no better alternative for electronic finance. Either conventional banking is nonexistent/abysmal for this purpose or their national currencies are in such bad condition that it's better for them to hold and use cryptocurrencies.
  - ForHackernews 9mo ago
    Name one, and provide evidence to support that assertion.
    - HighGoldstein 9mo ago
      Nigeria, Argentina, Venezuela, all prime examples because they faced especially severe problems with hyperinflation and traditional banking. You can also find widespread use in developing economies like Brazil, Indonesia, Philippines, but of course to a lesser degree since the problems with traditional finance are not as severe there. I will gladly provide more in-depth information, if someone provides some evidence to support that crypto users are the dumbest people on Earth. If not, feel free to use your own time instead of mine for your education.
      - ForHackernews 9mo ago
Traster 9mo ago
Ah I see, so the [token holder] hires a [builder] to build something, and uses that to then hire [intellectual] to scam the ['pragmatic user']? To take this a little more seriously, this is computer programming, very famously you don't need massive gobs of VC capital to build something. The only reason for the [builder] needs [token holder] is to hire [intellectual] to scam [user]. Oh and of course, [token holder] [builder] and [intellectual] are the same guy with 3 different anime profile pics.
- expedition32 9mo ago
  The funny thing is that people are betting on a profile with anime pictures against the ECB representing 500 million people. And yet when they want to actually buy a Lambo they need hard currency...
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
  - big-and-small 9mo ago
    If you can afford Lambo you can come to place like Dubai and pay for it in AnyUSDcoin, gold nuggets or anime profile picture NFTs. Barrier for using crypto of any kind does not exist in countries without paranoid AML / KYC regulations. Or tbh you can just buy it with crypto card issued in Hong Kong / Singapore even if you buying it in the US.
mrtksn 9mo ago
Has Vitalik fallen of grace? Some time ago I stopped following the crypto culture and now I keep being shown tweets ridiculing him.
- sunshine-o 9mo ago
  From what I understand the Ethereum Foundation has attracted a lot of criticism. I am not sure how much power and influence he has over it. One of the sensitive issue is the price of ETH it seems as it didn't perform well over the last 3-4 years. And staking it will only give you about 2.5% today. So in a sense the Ethereum Foundation is the opposite of the criticism we usually hear about crypto: the "stock" doesn't perform well but real progress have been made with the technology and in the ecosystem. One thing that is clear is that transactions are cheaper, more reliable and anybody can still participate and build on it.
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
TZubiri 9mo ago
That's a very nice categorization, but it seems orthogonal to the categories of: [scammers and hackers that want an untraceable and unrefundable payment method], [scammers that use cryptos themselves to scam and rugpull], ...
- mozarella 9mo ago
  He was talking about actors who contribute to the system. See my other reply : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46202319 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46202319
  - TZubiri 9mo ago
    I don't see how the article you linked is relevant at all to the OP and the topic of scams in general. If anything it just shows how the leadership and allegedly well-meaning leadership chooses to ignore the issue. Isn't it very likely that the malicious actors are part of the ecosystem and they contribute with funding? I'm not convinced that the scams and the casinos are an entirely separate fifth group (as opposed to a spectrum pyramid which might place say the Eth or Sol devs at the top). But even if they were, it's possible that the whole ecosystem and developers are benefitting from it? It seems that the very nature of banks is associating and trading deposits and debts, so if more than half of the ecosystem consists of scams and theft, the other 'good' half is both benefitting and enabling the 'bad' half. Legislation is very clear on this, which is why we have KYC, money laundering laws, which are curiously enough the very social features that the supposedly "technological" innovations seem to do without. In any case just ignoring the issue as a whole is a bit damning by itself, ignorance at best.
mbrochh 9mo ago
Classic Vitalik logic. A giant mountain of word salad and he still somehow magically fails to name the fifth and most important group: Scammers.
- mozarella 9mo ago
  Because he is only talking about categories that can contribute to the system. [Scammers] do not. In so far as the system and the diagram is concerned, [scammers] are to be thwarted and their harmful effects mitigated. A lot of the work done in crypto is security which is entirely about thwarting [scammers]. As an example, The original bitcoin paper on double-spending problem is devoted to securing against a particular type of scam. Speculators fall in a gray area and need to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. many of them are straight up scams, Some are legit, and the rest are in between. Stratton Oakmont was a scam. Does that mean your index-fund is also one? Or the stock market and financial system as a whole?
xnx 9mo ago
2 groups: con men and marks.

cryptonym 9mo ago

In a casino you have - The gamblers spending a lot on the casino - The people coming in for the fun and spending little money - The owners/C-levels - The operational team Someone from the operational team just learned that business relies only on the first group to be successful.

brohee 9mo ago
You forgot the money launderers, in both ecosystems. Casinos are the original tumbler.
- ethbr1 9mo ago
  'I'm shocked to find that gambling is going on in here.' https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0034583/quotes/?item=qt0429972 https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0034583/quotes/?item=qt0429972
  - JKCalhoun 9mo ago
    "I'm shocked! Shocked…" (The double "shocked" is what makes the quote next-level.)
    - ethbr1 9mo ago
      Doesn't quite translate in text. Figured those who could hear it in their head wouldn't need the extra prompting.
- mothballed 9mo ago
  That falls under pragmatists
brianolson 9mo ago
I worked in blockchain ("builder") for 5 years. I started 'eh, there are speculators, whatever, I build good tech' but finished 'holy crap speculators completely dominate and distort everything, nobody cares about good tech'
- dukeyukey 9mo ago
  Yep. As much as I can see utility in some crypto, and there are some personalities in respect (e.g. Vitalik) by and large the sector in such a dumpster fire I'm not going anywhere near it. I've got some bitcoin in a Coinbase account, that's as close as I'm getting.
- FabHK 9mo ago
  > nobody cares about good tech Indeed. For example: Chia is arguably decent tech (better than Bitcoin), built by Bram Cohen (of BitTorrent fame), innovative PoSpace+Time. But nobody cares, it's at #450 in market cap, way down below Doge (#10), $TRUMP (#72), Fartcoin (#144), Melania (#375).
  - underlipton 9mo ago
    The market cap obsession is part of the problem. Can I use it to buy things, easily? That's the only metric that should count if you're looking for practical use, not speculation.
    - NoMoreNicksLeft 9mo ago
      A successful cryptocurrent probably has to start by first having a market that is dissatisfied with the available traditional currencies. If that market were to introduce on (with good tech), then it could immediately see the cryptocurrency used for its intended purpose. At that point, if it avoided the attention of speculators (not forever, just long enough for it to get its feet underneath itself) or could discourage those speculators somehow, what happens then? Is there some other failure mode waiting, or does it take off?
    - wat10000 9mo ago
Aardwolf 9mo ago
> Someone from the operational team just learned that business relies only on the first group to be successful. Is there any possibility the presence of the people who are there just for fun still encourages/increases the size of the first group?
- watwut 9mo ago
  Imo, yes. There are where gamblers come from. They are also providing plausible deniality to gamblers.
soerxpso 9mo ago
You also have this quadchotomy in a department store, or in a number of other valuable businesses.

hshdhdhj4444 9mo ago

The only buyers are criminals, sanction evaders, and probably the dumbest people in the world given that the entire crypto ecosystem is focused on one thing and one thing only. Creating the most deflationary monetary system in history.

zombot 9mo ago
And also the most unerasable, and hence traceable, system. You can't delete records from a blockchain.
HighGoldstein 9mo ago
There are a lot of places in the world where crypto payments are now prevalent, not because users are the "dumbest people in the world" but because they have no better alternative for electronic finance. Either conventional banking is nonexistent/abysmal for this purpose or their national currencies are in such bad condition that it's better for them to hold and use cryptocurrencies.
- ForHackernews 9mo ago
  Name one, and provide evidence to support that assertion.
  - HighGoldstein 9mo ago
    Nigeria, Argentina, Venezuela, all prime examples because they faced especially severe problems with hyperinflation and traditional banking. You can also find widespread use in developing economies like Brazil, Indonesia, Philippines, but of course to a lesser degree since the problems with traditional finance are not as severe there. I will gladly provide more in-depth information, if someone provides some evidence to support that crypto users are the dumbest people on Earth. If not, feel free to use your own time instead of mine for your education.
    - ForHackernews 9mo ago

Traster 9mo ago

Ah I see, so the [token holder] hires a [builder] to build something, and uses that to then hire [intellectual] to scam the ['pragmatic user']? To take this a little more seriously, this is computer programming, very famously you don't need massive gobs of VC capital to build something. The only reason for the [builder] needs [token holder] is to hire [intellectual] to scam [user]. Oh and of course, [token holder] [builder] and [intellectual] are the same guy with 3 different anime profile pics.

expedition32 9mo ago
The funny thing is that people are betting on a profile with anime pictures against the ECB representing 500 million people. And yet when they want to actually buy a Lambo they need hard currency...
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
- big-and-small 9mo ago
  If you can afford Lambo you can come to place like Dubai and pay for it in AnyUSDcoin, gold nuggets or anime profile picture NFTs. Barrier for using crypto of any kind does not exist in countries without paranoid AML / KYC regulations. Or tbh you can just buy it with crypto card issued in Hong Kong / Singapore even if you buying it in the US.

mrtksn 9mo ago

Has Vitalik fallen of grace? Some time ago I stopped following the crypto culture and now I keep being shown tweets ridiculing him.

sunshine-o 9mo ago
From what I understand the Ethereum Foundation has attracted a lot of criticism. I am not sure how much power and influence he has over it. One of the sensitive issue is the price of ETH it seems as it didn't perform well over the last 3-4 years. And staking it will only give you about 2.5% today. So in a sense the Ethereum Foundation is the opposite of the criticism we usually hear about crypto: the "stock" doesn't perform well but real progress have been made with the technology and in the ecosystem. One thing that is clear is that transactions are cheaper, more reliable and anybody can still participate and build on it.
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]

TZubiri 9mo ago

That's a very nice categorization, but it seems orthogonal to the categories of: [scammers and hackers that want an untraceable and unrefundable payment method], [scammers that use cryptos themselves to scam and rugpull], ...

mozarella 9mo ago
He was talking about actors who contribute to the system. See my other reply : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46202319 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46202319
- TZubiri 9mo ago
  I don't see how the article you linked is relevant at all to the OP and the topic of scams in general. If anything it just shows how the leadership and allegedly well-meaning leadership chooses to ignore the issue. Isn't it very likely that the malicious actors are part of the ecosystem and they contribute with funding? I'm not convinced that the scams and the casinos are an entirely separate fifth group (as opposed to a spectrum pyramid which might place say the Eth or Sol devs at the top). But even if they were, it's possible that the whole ecosystem and developers are benefitting from it? It seems that the very nature of banks is associating and trading deposits and debts, so if more than half of the ecosystem consists of scams and theft, the other 'good' half is both benefitting and enabling the 'bad' half. Legislation is very clear on this, which is why we have KYC, money laundering laws, which are curiously enough the very social features that the supposedly "technological" innovations seem to do without. In any case just ignoring the issue as a whole is a bit damning by itself, ignorance at best.

mbrochh 9mo ago

Classic Vitalik logic. A giant mountain of word salad and he still somehow magically fails to name the fifth and most important group: Scammers.

mozarella 9mo ago
Because he is only talking about categories that can contribute to the system. [Scammers] do not. In so far as the system and the diagram is concerned, [scammers] are to be thwarted and their harmful effects mitigated. A lot of the work done in crypto is security which is entirely about thwarting [scammers]. As an example, The original bitcoin paper on double-spending problem is devoted to securing against a particular type of scam. Speculators fall in a gray area and need to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. many of them are straight up scams, Some are legit, and the rest are in between. Stratton Oakmont was a scam. Does that mean your index-fund is also one? Or the stock market and financial system as a whole?

xnx 9mo ago

2 groups: con men and marks.