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UK demands access to Apple users' encrypted data

67 points by tooba 2y ago

MrScruff 2y ago
As an Apple user for decades and a UK citizen I would honestly rather they withdrew from the UK market rather than engage with this idiocy.
newscracker 2y ago
Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42970412 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42970412
- chrisjj 2y ago
  Not dupe. Different report.
jonplackett 2y ago
Politicians living in dreamland again about what encryption can and cannot do. I thought this stupidity had died with our last excuse for a government. Sad to see this is back.
- sureIy 2y ago
  What do you mean? Do you have the key to your iCloud backups? You do not, your phone does. You know who has root access to your phone? Apple. It would take a minute to set up some code to fetch the key, if they were legally forced to.
  - JKCalhoun 2y ago
    So, "Just please sign into your phone for us, will you, and install this software update that we push through the pipe."
    - Hizonner 2y ago
      The phones auto-install updates all the time with no user intervention or even notification.
    - sureIy 2y ago
      I wish I was this naive. Even AirTags receive firmware updates via Bluetooth. The iPhone when off has the capabilities of an AirTag. If Apple wanted, they could. That's all I'm saying. If AUKUS & EU say "backdoor them or no more sales" you bet your safe encryption will be no more.
  - jonplackett 2y ago
    What I mean is they have this fantasy that they can weaken encryption in a way that only they can benefit from, and that if they’re given these keys they can realistically keep them safe.
redserk 2y ago
> And withdrawing the product from the UK might not be enough to ensure compliance - the Investigatory Powers Act applies worldwide to any tech firm with a UK market, even if they are not based in Britain. That's incredibly demanding for a country that's been desperately trying to cling onto relevance for decades.
- christkv 2y ago
  If they were to get this it's time to sue Apple for breach of GDPR.
- Longhanks 2y ago
  To what extent is a country's relevance (whatever that even means) the decisive factor in determining what it is allowed to demand?
  - ben_w 2y ago
    Allowed? UK government can "demand" anything. Anything outside the UK's sovereign control, is necessarily only going to be given by those who have other reasons to do so besides the threat of being arrested by a police force that has no jurisdiction. The company wants to do business in the UK, it has to follow UK law. UK law claims for itself the right to act globally, and has the power to arrest and fine the companies and officers of Apple that are based in the UK if they don't… but then the Pope claims supremacy over all Catholics* and gets ignored somewhat in this also, and for the same reason: There are other governments involved, and they don't accept the UK's (/Pope's) jurisdiction exceeds their own. And in this case, the laws of other nations seem to require Apple to violate this law, so Apple's officers have to decide between which country to risk having arrest their officers, or to leave the UK. (I have no idea what's going to happen, because the intelligence community in every nation has reasons to want Apple to be forced to do this, so if Apple decides to agree with the UK and violate other nations' privacy laws, those privacy laws may get conveniently ignored). * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_supremacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_supremacy
    - jonathanstrange 2y ago
draw_down 2y ago
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krisbolton 2y ago
Lawfare has some good articles covering the different perspectives on the encryption debate from the last 10 years. https://www.lawfaremedia.org/search-results?prod_search-index%5Bquery%5D=Encryption&prod_search-index%5Bpage%5D=1 https://www.lawfaremedia.org/search-results?prod_search-inde...
- miohtama 2y ago
  And then in 90s https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_Wars https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_Wars
mwagstaff 2y ago
As a UK citizen, I'm hoping this is actually a backdoor effort by the US to hack into people's data rather then something our fine folks were pushing for. Or at the very least, it's a starting point for negotiations around how best to stop bad actors without compromising user security.
coldcode 2y ago
Apple could start with the UK politicians' iCloud backups, I am sure there is a lot of useful compromising information in them. That might cause a change in attitude.
- flenserboy 2y ago
  Apple could be the first modern corporation to declare war on a nation-state. They have the resources to set the internet hounds on them & make them absolutely miserable. Looks like the Heinlein/Snowcrash/Stross corporate futures are in play.
throw0101c 2y ago
See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42971761 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42971761
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67 points by tooba 2y ago

As an Apple user for decades and a UK citizen I would honestly rather they withdrew from the UK market rather than engage with this idiocy.

newscracker 2y ago

Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42970412 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42970412

chrisjj 2y ago
Not dupe. Different report.

jonplackett 2y ago

Politicians living in dreamland again about what encryption can and cannot do. I thought this stupidity had died with our last excuse for a government. Sad to see this is back.

sureIy 2y ago
What do you mean? Do you have the key to your iCloud backups? You do not, your phone does. You know who has root access to your phone? Apple. It would take a minute to set up some code to fetch the key, if they were legally forced to.
- JKCalhoun 2y ago
  So, "Just please sign into your phone for us, will you, and install this software update that we push through the pipe."
  - Hizonner 2y ago
    The phones auto-install updates all the time with no user intervention or even notification.
  - sureIy 2y ago
    I wish I was this naive. Even AirTags receive firmware updates via Bluetooth. The iPhone when off has the capabilities of an AirTag. If Apple wanted, they could. That's all I'm saying. If AUKUS & EU say "backdoor them or no more sales" you bet your safe encryption will be no more.
- jonplackett 2y ago
  What I mean is they have this fantasy that they can weaken encryption in a way that only they can benefit from, and that if they’re given these keys they can realistically keep them safe.

redserk 2y ago

> And withdrawing the product from the UK might not be enough to ensure compliance - the Investigatory Powers Act applies worldwide to any tech firm with a UK market, even if they are not based in Britain. That's incredibly demanding for a country that's been desperately trying to cling onto relevance for decades.

christkv 2y ago
If they were to get this it's time to sue Apple for breach of GDPR.
Longhanks 2y ago
To what extent is a country's relevance (whatever that even means) the decisive factor in determining what it is allowed to demand?
- ben_w 2y ago
  Allowed? UK government can "demand" anything. Anything outside the UK's sovereign control, is necessarily only going to be given by those who have other reasons to do so besides the threat of being arrested by a police force that has no jurisdiction. The company wants to do business in the UK, it has to follow UK law. UK law claims for itself the right to act globally, and has the power to arrest and fine the companies and officers of Apple that are based in the UK if they don't… but then the Pope claims supremacy over all Catholics* and gets ignored somewhat in this also, and for the same reason: There are other governments involved, and they don't accept the UK's (/Pope's) jurisdiction exceeds their own. And in this case, the laws of other nations seem to require Apple to violate this law, so Apple's officers have to decide between which country to risk having arrest their officers, or to leave the UK. (I have no idea what's going to happen, because the intelligence community in every nation has reasons to want Apple to be forced to do this, so if Apple decides to agree with the UK and violate other nations' privacy laws, those privacy laws may get conveniently ignored). * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_supremacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_supremacy
  - jonathanstrange 2y ago

draw_down 2y ago

[dead]

krisbolton 2y ago

Lawfare has some good articles covering the different perspectives on the encryption debate from the last 10 years. https://www.lawfaremedia.org/search-results?prod_search-index%5Bquery%5D=Encryption&prod_search-index%5Bpage%5D=1 https://www.lawfaremedia.org/search-results?prod_search-inde...

miohtama 2y ago
And then in 90s https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_Wars https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_Wars

mwagstaff 2y ago

As a UK citizen, I'm hoping this is actually a backdoor effort by the US to hack into people's data rather then something our fine folks were pushing for. Or at the very least, it's a starting point for negotiations around how best to stop bad actors without compromising user security.

coldcode 2y ago

Apple could start with the UK politicians' iCloud backups, I am sure there is a lot of useful compromising information in them. That might cause a change in attitude.

flenserboy 2y ago
Apple could be the first modern corporation to declare war on a nation-state. They have the resources to set the internet hounds on them & make them absolutely miserable. Looks like the Heinlein/Snowcrash/Stross corporate futures are in play.

throw0101c 2y ago

See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42971761 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42971761

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