7 ms·

I failed moving my Google calendar to Proton

49 points by true_pk 2y ago

spencerflem 2y ago
Fwiw, I had a similar experience and ended up switching to Fastmail. Less private which is a shame, but still achieves degoogling
- ggm 2y ago
  I was going to ask if Fastmail went smoother. Bron (CEO) is active in IETF doing the JMAP related stuff and other things, he is responsive to discussion in that place, I felt like they are working to make things more gooder better. Proton is secure. But it can be very hard to work with. I help seniors who were taken there by their more paranoid friends and associates and now struggle with the GUI and tying it into older mail clients
- troad 2y ago
  My own experience of migrating my calendars and contacts from iCloud to Fastmail went seamlessly. What's more, the user experience on my iPhone went pretty much unchanged, including in Apple's own Calendar and Contacts apps, which has been very nice. Would recommend! (It's worth noting for the privacy conscious that Australia, where Fastmail is based, has a truly terrible set of laws when it comes to government snooping, so if your threat model includes the Australian government, probably best to avoid Fastmail.)
  - yosito 2y ago
    IIRC, Australia also shares data with the US, UK, Canada and New Zealand.
  - sneak 2y ago
    And Australia is Five Eyes, which means FBI/DHS/DEA/ATF all have warrantless access to everything in Fastmail via FAA702.
    - pbhjpbhj 2y ago
      Seems to be a useful summary of 702 from a USA perspective: https://cdt.org/insights/section-702-what-it-is-how-it-works/ https://cdt.org/insights/section-702-what-it-is-how-it-works...
      - jamalaramala 2y ago
        According to the article, Section 702 sunset on December 31, 2017.
      - sneak 2y ago
        This is out of date. We know now from multiple different sources that 702 is routinely used illegally to spy on US persons as well. It has also regularly been renewed and is still in full effect, and appears that it will remain so in perpetuity. It is the #1 most used source in US intelligence gathering.
- pjerem 2y ago
  FWIW, A good compromise between Proton and FastMail is Infomaniak kMail and/or kSuite. Like Proton, it’s Swiss based, like FastMail, everything is using standard protocols. So unlike Proton, it’s just basic mail with no encryption but at least your mails are in a pretty safe jurisdiction. If you care about it and use the webmail, the UX is pretty much ok but let’s be honest, FastMail is waaay ahead everyone else when it comes to usability. If you just use native clients to access your mail/calendar etc … it will just be the same. It’s also a little cheaper than FastMail.
- kookiburra 2y ago
  Here's a relevant article - essentially I think Fastmail may actually be the more private option, since E2EE email promises are only at-rest if you don't use PGP. https://ownerofhappy.org/encrypted-email-bad https://ownerofhappy.org/encrypted-email-bad
TheCapeGreek 2y ago
Yeah, unfortunately this is one of those sandpaper tradeoffs for some users with some of the Proton suite and how they approach privacy (and its consequences for you as the end user). I've had similar bugbears with their other products which end up in me not using anything except the core mail product. They seem to improve things over time, but it's a game of patience. E.g. I stopped using the Drive apps and only use it as an async backup store, because it keeps creating sync conflict files if you sync something you edit frequently (like an Obsidian vault). It also for some reason kept setting my user permissions to read only for my note files while it did this (on macOS).
sneak 2y ago
This is a function of Proton’s weird e2ee setup, which the calendar and contacts and email protocols were never designed for. I self-host my own calendar, email, and contacts now. You can probably do it on a raspberry pi or small NUC at home, with some port forwards over nebula/tailscale from a $5 VPS, if you wish.
- egamirorrim 2y ago
  Self hosting email sounds like it comes with a lot of dragons, what do you use for it?
  - ibbtown 2y ago
    I can recommend z-push as active sync frontend. It can combine different data source (IMAP, caldav, carddav).
  - tempfile 2y ago
    Dragons to the point of being impossible. Self hosting your outgoing mail means it will almost surely never reach the recipient due to reputation issues. You can, however, set up a respected email provider with your own domain (meaning that, in particular, you can switch providers easily). I have done this myself, using ForwardEmail as the provider.
  - prmoustache 2y ago
    Having said that, you can self host only calendars and contact, this is nowhere as complicated and maintenance intensive as emails. Or use one of the many nextcloud providers available, the free tier is usually enough for that.
    - leshenka 2y ago
      I used to self-host email. I'm not a devops specialist, I'm not an email specialist, and I had to solve issues on a weekly basis. I ended up moving to Fastmail, too. And if I'm moving email to FM, might as well move calendars.
rekoil 2y ago
I've used Proton for like 5-6 years now, Calendar is definitely the roughest of their products. Good news there is they are rebuilding it from scratch with an initial (beta?) release scheduled for this year!
- ploum 2y ago
  Any source? I’m interested!
  - rekoil 2y ago
    https://proton.me/blog/mail-calendar-product-roadmap-winter https://proton.me/blog/mail-calendar-product-roadmap-winter > To support much-requested features like tasks, search capabilities, and offline access, we’ve started work on our next generation of Proton Calendar apps for iOS and Android, which we aim to release toward the end of 2025.
preya2k 2y ago
Switching from Google to Proton sounds like picking the lesser of two evils. If you really want to “degoogle” you should probably go for self-hosting or getting a managed OSS product (e.g. managed Mailcow/Sogo Hosting). Otherwise you’re just switching from one crazy billionaire to another. https://mastodon.neat.computer/@jonah/113705526672291257 https://mastodon.neat.computer/@jonah/113705526672291257
- Over2Chars 2y ago
  Do we really know which crazy billionaire is the lesser of two evils? We can merely choose between which is the seemingly better known evil. Self hosting is a way to go. It would be nice if one of those "no code" shops could make it a bit easier or something.
  - InsideOutSanta 2y ago
    FWIW, Proton has no billionnaires, crazy or otherwise. They are governed by a non-profit foundation, though: https://proton.me/blog/proton-non-profit-foundation https://proton.me/blog/proton-non-profit-foundation I do agree that self-hosting is best, but particularly for email, that's not trivial.
    - Over2Chars 2y ago
      Supposedly these "no code" sites can stand up a basic infra with very little effort. If so, have a no code site set up a mail host. It might still not be trivial but it might be much easier?
  - eptcyka 2y ago
    Self hosting is a pain and not sustainable. I self-host, it is cool, but this cannot be the solution. It’d be like everyone going back to farming because walmart can’t be trusted - they cannot but the world will go to hell if everyone has to do everything themselves.
    - Over2Chars 2y ago
freddie_mercury 2y ago
A lot of this reads like "I wish Proton Calendar wasn't encrypted on their servers." But that's like the entire value prop of using Proton Calendar over the many other options out there, isn't it?
- Over2Chars 2y ago
  I think it's not about encryption as to the primitive tooling of Proton's calendar import, and maybe a little inflexibility on the author's part. That's how I read it.
- rekoil 2y ago
  While I agree with you in general, E2EE can't be a blanket excuse for building bad applications. If your E2EE applications can't deal with data encryption in a way that makes them comparable to competitors non-E2EE products from a usability aspect, then they are still bad applications, regardless if we know that E2EE does make it all way harder. I love Proton, but there are aspects of E2EE that they haven't worked around well enough at present, in my opinion. The biggest pain points are: - Collaboration - Offline access Both of those are highly relevant for calendars, so it doesn't surprise me they didn't hit the nail on the head on the first try.
  - EduardoBautista 2y ago
    The issue is that the open protocols IMAP, CalDAV, and CardDAV weren't built with E2EE in mind. This is the big reason why you can't use 3rd party calendar clients with Proton.
    - ivan_gammel 2y ago
      3rd party client or support for those protocols is not the only solution to collaboration and offline access. Their own app must do it well first.
    - rekoil 2y ago
      If that's the only issue it should be trivial for Proton to release a slightly modified version of Thunderbird that allows decrypting an encrypted CalDAV XML. That could then be the basis for extending the spec to allow encryption.
guerrilla 2y ago
Yeah, the calendar sidn't transfer all my events so I would lose a big part of how I use it. I gave up for now, stuck with Google which makes me nervous, but I hear Proton is re-doing it.
Over2Chars 2y ago
"And the url did not work because my work email is private (and will stay so)." I have not tried this, but there is some email obfuscation feature: https://proton.me/support/pass-email-alias https://proton.me/support/pass-email-alias and other email obfuscation services. Not sure if this would matter for something like a calendar import, as I'm sure how the traversal works. Also, the author could have tried a Murena /e/ os de-googled phone. Glancing at my Murena /e/ os "App Lounge" there's dizzying number of calendar options with high privacy scores. Also, doing some poking around and testing rather than going all-in on proton mail's calendar, esp. if calendaring is so important. That said I use proton mail's calendar for everything personal and it works "ok" for me.
InsideOutSanta 2y ago
Calendar is the one feature of Proton I don't use. For my calendar, the issues caused by encryption are not worth the additional security. But I don't want my calendar to be on Google, or some other large cloud provider, either. So I ended up just self-hosting my calendar. It's pretty easy to self-host a calendar, it can be as easy as dumping a bunch of PHP files on a server and connecting to a MySQL database (e.g. using Baïkal).
tobi_bsf 2y ago
In my experience, these proprietary encrypted systems like Proton or Tutanota all have their shortcomings caused by their mandatory client software.
godelski 2y ago
A bit off topic but why are calendars so hard? I recently moved from android to apple and I'm just really impressed no one does a dedupe operation on calendars. Seriously, who works on these things? I'll write you the regex if you really really need it but damn, if you're going to push fancy AI on me to make my life easier at least take care of all the annoying trivial bullshit that makes my life harder.
- thih9 2y ago
  It’s difficult to maintain basic features in a popular calendar, at least according to the ms exchange team blog: > calendaring is particularly tricky. Why’s that? Well, consider time zones for a start – a meeting you set up isn’t necessarily in the same time as it is for me, and then you also invited people, from a whole bunch of other time zones (did you know some time zones are 30 mins off, not a full hour?) (…) https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/blog/exchange/calendaring-is-really-hard-to-code-and-that%E2%80%99s-why-you-were-an-hour-late-to-that-/1165583 https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/blog/exchange/calendarin... Then there is the “falsehoods programmers believe about time” list: https://gist.github.com/timvisee/fcda9bbdff88d45cc9061606b4b923ca https://gist.github.com/timvisee/fcda9bbdff88d45cc9061606b4b... , with some counter examples: http://www.creativedeletion.com/2015/01/28/falsehoods-programmers-date-time-zones.html http://www.creativedeletion.com/2015/01/28/falsehoods-progra...
  - karamanolev 2y ago
    Eh, I don't buy that. Storage in UTC and converting to a local timezone for display / notification purposes has been the standard practice for a looong time. What I would believe, I don't know if true, is that different applications support subtly different feature sets, integration has varying levels of support and correctness and so on. Additionally, I feel like vendors are incentivized to offer good support within their ecosystem, but integration with the outside world is a second-class citizen.
    - pluies 2y ago
      > Storage in UTC and converting to a local timezone for display / notification purposes has been the standard practice for a looong time. All good until summer time kicks in and your recurring 9am meeting now starts at 8am, oops.
yoavm 2y ago
Google Calendar supports CalDAV, but only behind OAuth, which many clients do not support. I've created https://github.com/bjesus/oauth-hopper https://github.com/bjesus/oauth-hopper to solve that - it takes care of the OAuth steps and provides a clean CalDAV endpoint that you can use to read and write to your calendar from almost any calendar application. In reality OAuth Hopper can be used to abstract OAuth away from any endpoint - it isn't CalDAV specific in anyway.
- true_pk 2y ago
  This is neat! I will take a look.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  > In reality OAuth Hopper can be used to abstract OAuth away from any endpoint - it isn't CalDAV specific in anyway. You're doing Lord's work here. Thank you. OAuth2 has been the bane of my existence; it's basically the One Weird Trick to Prevent Automated Use of a Service.
kookiburra 2y ago
I started out using Proton calendar but ended up discovering the dates are actually not encrypted, which I think is quite an oversight. Haven't found a replacement unfortunately so it might just be the best option for the cloud. For now a local notepad calendar it is!
- jamalaramala 2y ago
  Why would one encrypt dates? They are public domain!!!
jamalaramala 2y ago
Curiously, the easiest Google product to move away from is "google" (search): I have been using DuckDuckGo for years, both for searching and browsing. I love the ability to burn the cookies after each session! But I haven't been able to replace Gmail, Calendar and Maps (which are quite good products IMO). It's quite ironic that "google" (search) has become one of Google's worst products.
- true_pk 2y ago
  Good point! In truth, that was the first starting point for me as well. Then browser. Then everything else :)
emersion 2y ago
Another option would be to try this hydroxide patch (that i need to find time to review...): https://github.com/emersion/hydroxide/pull/282 https://github.com/emersion/hydroxide/pull/282

49 points by true_pk 2y ago

Fwiw, I had a similar experience and ended up switching to Fastmail. Less private which is a shame, but still achieves degoogling

ggm 2y ago
I was going to ask if Fastmail went smoother. Bron (CEO) is active in IETF doing the JMAP related stuff and other things, he is responsive to discussion in that place, I felt like they are working to make things more gooder better. Proton is secure. But it can be very hard to work with. I help seniors who were taken there by their more paranoid friends and associates and now struggle with the GUI and tying it into older mail clients
troad 2y ago
My own experience of migrating my calendars and contacts from iCloud to Fastmail went seamlessly. What's more, the user experience on my iPhone went pretty much unchanged, including in Apple's own Calendar and Contacts apps, which has been very nice. Would recommend! (It's worth noting for the privacy conscious that Australia, where Fastmail is based, has a truly terrible set of laws when it comes to government snooping, so if your threat model includes the Australian government, probably best to avoid Fastmail.)
- yosito 2y ago
  IIRC, Australia also shares data with the US, UK, Canada and New Zealand.
- sneak 2y ago
  And Australia is Five Eyes, which means FBI/DHS/DEA/ATF all have warrantless access to everything in Fastmail via FAA702.
  - pbhjpbhj 2y ago
    Seems to be a useful summary of 702 from a USA perspective: https://cdt.org/insights/section-702-what-it-is-how-it-works/ https://cdt.org/insights/section-702-what-it-is-how-it-works...
    - jamalaramala 2y ago
      According to the article, Section 702 sunset on December 31, 2017.
    - sneak 2y ago
      This is out of date. We know now from multiple different sources that 702 is routinely used illegally to spy on US persons as well. It has also regularly been renewed and is still in full effect, and appears that it will remain so in perpetuity. It is the #1 most used source in US intelligence gathering.
pjerem 2y ago
FWIW, A good compromise between Proton and FastMail is Infomaniak kMail and/or kSuite. Like Proton, it’s Swiss based, like FastMail, everything is using standard protocols. So unlike Proton, it’s just basic mail with no encryption but at least your mails are in a pretty safe jurisdiction. If you care about it and use the webmail, the UX is pretty much ok but let’s be honest, FastMail is waaay ahead everyone else when it comes to usability. If you just use native clients to access your mail/calendar etc … it will just be the same. It’s also a little cheaper than FastMail.
kookiburra 2y ago
Here's a relevant article - essentially I think Fastmail may actually be the more private option, since E2EE email promises are only at-rest if you don't use PGP. https://ownerofhappy.org/encrypted-email-bad https://ownerofhappy.org/encrypted-email-bad

TheCapeGreek 2y ago

Yeah, unfortunately this is one of those sandpaper tradeoffs for some users with some of the Proton suite and how they approach privacy (and its consequences for you as the end user). I've had similar bugbears with their other products which end up in me not using anything except the core mail product. They seem to improve things over time, but it's a game of patience. E.g. I stopped using the Drive apps and only use it as an async backup store, because it keeps creating sync conflict files if you sync something you edit frequently (like an Obsidian vault). It also for some reason kept setting my user permissions to read only for my note files while it did this (on macOS).

sneak 2y ago

This is a function of Proton’s weird e2ee setup, which the calendar and contacts and email protocols were never designed for. I self-host my own calendar, email, and contacts now. You can probably do it on a raspberry pi or small NUC at home, with some port forwards over nebula/tailscale from a $5 VPS, if you wish.

egamirorrim 2y ago
Self hosting email sounds like it comes with a lot of dragons, what do you use for it?
- ibbtown 2y ago
  I can recommend z-push as active sync frontend. It can combine different data source (IMAP, caldav, carddav).
- tempfile 2y ago
  Dragons to the point of being impossible. Self hosting your outgoing mail means it will almost surely never reach the recipient due to reputation issues. You can, however, set up a respected email provider with your own domain (meaning that, in particular, you can switch providers easily). I have done this myself, using ForwardEmail as the provider.
- prmoustache 2y ago
  Having said that, you can self host only calendars and contact, this is nowhere as complicated and maintenance intensive as emails. Or use one of the many nextcloud providers available, the free tier is usually enough for that.
  - leshenka 2y ago
    I used to self-host email. I'm not a devops specialist, I'm not an email specialist, and I had to solve issues on a weekly basis. I ended up moving to Fastmail, too. And if I'm moving email to FM, might as well move calendars.

rekoil 2y ago

I've used Proton for like 5-6 years now, Calendar is definitely the roughest of their products. Good news there is they are rebuilding it from scratch with an initial (beta?) release scheduled for this year!

ploum 2y ago
Any source? I’m interested!
- rekoil 2y ago
  https://proton.me/blog/mail-calendar-product-roadmap-winter https://proton.me/blog/mail-calendar-product-roadmap-winter > To support much-requested features like tasks, search capabilities, and offline access, we’ve started work on our next generation of Proton Calendar apps for iOS and Android, which we aim to release toward the end of 2025.

preya2k 2y ago

Switching from Google to Proton sounds like picking the lesser of two evils. If you really want to “degoogle” you should probably go for self-hosting or getting a managed OSS product (e.g. managed Mailcow/Sogo Hosting). Otherwise you’re just switching from one crazy billionaire to another. https://mastodon.neat.computer/@jonah/113705526672291257 https://mastodon.neat.computer/@jonah/113705526672291257

Over2Chars 2y ago
Do we really know which crazy billionaire is the lesser of two evils? We can merely choose between which is the seemingly better known evil. Self hosting is a way to go. It would be nice if one of those "no code" shops could make it a bit easier or something.
- InsideOutSanta 2y ago
  FWIW, Proton has no billionnaires, crazy or otherwise. They are governed by a non-profit foundation, though: https://proton.me/blog/proton-non-profit-foundation https://proton.me/blog/proton-non-profit-foundation I do agree that self-hosting is best, but particularly for email, that's not trivial.
  - Over2Chars 2y ago
    Supposedly these "no code" sites can stand up a basic infra with very little effort. If so, have a no code site set up a mail host. It might still not be trivial but it might be much easier?
- eptcyka 2y ago
  Self hosting is a pain and not sustainable. I self-host, it is cool, but this cannot be the solution. It’d be like everyone going back to farming because walmart can’t be trusted - they cannot but the world will go to hell if everyone has to do everything themselves.
  - Over2Chars 2y ago

freddie_mercury 2y ago

A lot of this reads like "I wish Proton Calendar wasn't encrypted on their servers." But that's like the entire value prop of using Proton Calendar over the many other options out there, isn't it?

Over2Chars 2y ago
I think it's not about encryption as to the primitive tooling of Proton's calendar import, and maybe a little inflexibility on the author's part. That's how I read it.
rekoil 2y ago
While I agree with you in general, E2EE can't be a blanket excuse for building bad applications. If your E2EE applications can't deal with data encryption in a way that makes them comparable to competitors non-E2EE products from a usability aspect, then they are still bad applications, regardless if we know that E2EE does make it all way harder. I love Proton, but there are aspects of E2EE that they haven't worked around well enough at present, in my opinion. The biggest pain points are: - Collaboration - Offline access Both of those are highly relevant for calendars, so it doesn't surprise me they didn't hit the nail on the head on the first try.
- EduardoBautista 2y ago
  The issue is that the open protocols IMAP, CalDAV, and CardDAV weren't built with E2EE in mind. This is the big reason why you can't use 3rd party calendar clients with Proton.
  - ivan_gammel 2y ago
    3rd party client or support for those protocols is not the only solution to collaboration and offline access. Their own app must do it well first.
  - rekoil 2y ago
    If that's the only issue it should be trivial for Proton to release a slightly modified version of Thunderbird that allows decrypting an encrypted CalDAV XML. That could then be the basis for extending the spec to allow encryption.

guerrilla 2y ago

Yeah, the calendar sidn't transfer all my events so I would lose a big part of how I use it. I gave up for now, stuck with Google which makes me nervous, but I hear Proton is re-doing it.

Over2Chars 2y ago

"And the url did not work because my work email is private (and will stay so)." I have not tried this, but there is some email obfuscation feature: https://proton.me/support/pass-email-alias https://proton.me/support/pass-email-alias and other email obfuscation services. Not sure if this would matter for something like a calendar import, as I'm sure how the traversal works. Also, the author could have tried a Murena /e/ os de-googled phone. Glancing at my Murena /e/ os "App Lounge" there's dizzying number of calendar options with high privacy scores. Also, doing some poking around and testing rather than going all-in on proton mail's calendar, esp. if calendaring is so important. That said I use proton mail's calendar for everything personal and it works "ok" for me.

InsideOutSanta 2y ago

Calendar is the one feature of Proton I don't use. For my calendar, the issues caused by encryption are not worth the additional security. But I don't want my calendar to be on Google, or some other large cloud provider, either. So I ended up just self-hosting my calendar. It's pretty easy to self-host a calendar, it can be as easy as dumping a bunch of PHP files on a server and connecting to a MySQL database (e.g. using Baïkal).

tobi_bsf 2y ago

In my experience, these proprietary encrypted systems like Proton or Tutanota all have their shortcomings caused by their mandatory client software.

godelski 2y ago

A bit off topic but why are calendars so hard? I recently moved from android to apple and I'm just really impressed no one does a dedupe operation on calendars. Seriously, who works on these things? I'll write you the regex if you really really need it but damn, if you're going to push fancy AI on me to make my life easier at least take care of all the annoying trivial bullshit that makes my life harder.

thih9 2y ago
It’s difficult to maintain basic features in a popular calendar, at least according to the ms exchange team blog: > calendaring is particularly tricky. Why’s that? Well, consider time zones for a start – a meeting you set up isn’t necessarily in the same time as it is for me, and then you also invited people, from a whole bunch of other time zones (did you know some time zones are 30 mins off, not a full hour?) (…) https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/blog/exchange/calendaring-is-really-hard-to-code-and-that%E2%80%99s-why-you-were-an-hour-late-to-that-/1165583 https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/blog/exchange/calendarin... Then there is the “falsehoods programmers believe about time” list: https://gist.github.com/timvisee/fcda9bbdff88d45cc9061606b4b923ca https://gist.github.com/timvisee/fcda9bbdff88d45cc9061606b4b... , with some counter examples: http://www.creativedeletion.com/2015/01/28/falsehoods-programmers-date-time-zones.html http://www.creativedeletion.com/2015/01/28/falsehoods-progra...
- karamanolev 2y ago
  Eh, I don't buy that. Storage in UTC and converting to a local timezone for display / notification purposes has been the standard practice for a looong time. What I would believe, I don't know if true, is that different applications support subtly different feature sets, integration has varying levels of support and correctness and so on. Additionally, I feel like vendors are incentivized to offer good support within their ecosystem, but integration with the outside world is a second-class citizen.
  - pluies 2y ago
    > Storage in UTC and converting to a local timezone for display / notification purposes has been the standard practice for a looong time. All good until summer time kicks in and your recurring 9am meeting now starts at 8am, oops.

yoavm 2y ago

Google Calendar supports CalDAV, but only behind OAuth, which many clients do not support. I've created https://github.com/bjesus/oauth-hopper https://github.com/bjesus/oauth-hopper to solve that - it takes care of the OAuth steps and provides a clean CalDAV endpoint that you can use to read and write to your calendar from almost any calendar application. In reality OAuth Hopper can be used to abstract OAuth away from any endpoint - it isn't CalDAV specific in anyway.

true_pk 2y ago
This is neat! I will take a look.
TeMPOraL 2y ago
> In reality OAuth Hopper can be used to abstract OAuth away from any endpoint - it isn't CalDAV specific in anyway. You're doing Lord's work here. Thank you. OAuth2 has been the bane of my existence; it's basically the One Weird Trick to Prevent Automated Use of a Service.

kookiburra 2y ago

I started out using Proton calendar but ended up discovering the dates are actually not encrypted, which I think is quite an oversight. Haven't found a replacement unfortunately so it might just be the best option for the cloud. For now a local notepad calendar it is!

jamalaramala 2y ago
Why would one encrypt dates? They are public domain!!!

jamalaramala 2y ago

Curiously, the easiest Google product to move away from is "google" (search): I have been using DuckDuckGo for years, both for searching and browsing. I love the ability to burn the cookies after each session! But I haven't been able to replace Gmail, Calendar and Maps (which are quite good products IMO). It's quite ironic that "google" (search) has become one of Google's worst products.

true_pk 2y ago
Good point! In truth, that was the first starting point for me as well. Then browser. Then everything else :)

emersion 2y ago

Another option would be to try this hydroxide patch (that i need to find time to review...): https://github.com/emersion/hydroxide/pull/282 https://github.com/emersion/hydroxide/pull/282