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A) Do you pay them? - No: then yes it is free “But my data” Have your ever sold your data? Would the value you could ever possibly receive for your data ever

A) Do you pay them? - No: then yes it is free “But my data” Have your ever sold your data? Would the value you could ever possibly receive for your data ever equate to the value you get from the free services? Likely No and No. Is the free ad supported city newspaper free? Yes it is in fact free, just like FM radio is free, and broadcast television is free, and sidewalks next to billboards are free Someone creating something appealing and giving it away for free in order to make up for it through ads in front of eyeballs does not in any way mean that the free thing isn’t free

nomat 2y ago
if you aren't considering the fact that your data is what enabled these companies to become such massive giants in the first place, you may be living outside of the EU.
dartos 2y ago
> A) Do you pay them? - No: then yes it is free And here we see the ostrich. When faced with the horrors of reality, sticks its head in the sand. It’s simpler in there.
- someluccc 2y ago
  Your data is worthless. Please do tell me how much you could sell your “data” for right now.
  - alt227 2y ago
    The data of an individual may be worth something like $0.001 which is not that much to an individual. However the value is not nothing, and if you are a company with multiple billion users, that value of data can get pretty big pretty fast
  - dartos 2y ago
    My data, sure, but the data of my entire age/racial/economic group is worth a lot to marketing firms. There’s a ton of that information in emails. That’s literally google’s business model. You think Gmail is free bc Google is nice? Come on…
    - someluccc 2y ago
      So in this transaction you’re exchanging something that is individually worthless for something that is individually valuable. Which is a bad thing and should stop. Right now! Ps: it’s also not like you’re paying so little that you could say you’re getting it for…… free
      - dartos 2y ago
        It’s really hard for me to take you seriously. You’re just poorly playing semantics to white knight for Google. Very weird. It’s a good deal for the individual, that’s why Gmail is popular. Trading something of low value for something of moderate value is not what “free” means… Say the data from me or any of my peers was worth 1/100th of a cent and we give that away… that means I am trading something of minor value for something else…
  - diggernet 2y ago
    It's not worthless to companies who want to use it against me. I don't want to sell my data. I want companies to stop collecting it. In fact, I don't think I've seen anyone here wishing they could sell their data.
  - zuminator 2y ago
    There are companies like Nielsen that will pay you directly for you to provide personal data. But regardless of that, there are plenty of things that we do for free, like babysitting our own kids or answering our own phones, that if provided to someone else we would get paid for. So if your data is worthless to you, that doesn't mean it's not valuable to someone else. And we know for a fact that data is valuable, so why are you even raising this point, except to be argumentative for its own sake?
- someluccc 2y ago
  If I build a movie theater and give away the tickets knowing that I can make money on ads before a movie that does not mean that 5 minutes of your eyesight is now worth something
  - nosianu 2y ago
    > that does not mean that 5 minutes of your eyesight is now worth something The advertisers paying to get their ads placed in front of those eyes disagree. And ye, since another comment questions this, data or "eye-time are similar - they can be broken down to the individual. The advertisers pay some price expecting a certain number of people to see the ad, and even if data about people is sold in bulk (too) there is a price per individual. It's a simple division to see the price they pay per person to view that cinema ad, or for one person's data, even if they always purchase those in bulk. After all, they get to the bulk price by multiplying how much they are willing to pay for one individual with the expected (or in the case of data packages known) number of individuals.
    - someluccc 2y ago
      You can literally use Chrome, Workspace, Drive, Android and Maps without seeing a single ad, without an ad blocker, without EVER using google search, for free.
      - threeseed 2y ago
        Google Maps is full of local search ads and Workspaces isn't free. Also Chrome exists primarily to ensure their ads business remains healthy i.e. they have massively watered down privacy restrictions.
      - nosianu 2y ago
        Uhmm.... I have to admit that I fail to see any connection whatsoever between your original comment that I replied to (included in the reply) and your reply...
      - alt227 2y ago
braabe 2y ago
All of these examples are probably in part or fully paid for with some sort of taxes. So it is less "no payments" and more "deferred payments". I would argue that the question of "Is it free?" should not be restricted to monetary payments. If I offer you dinner for an hour of yardwork - are you receiving the food for free? If I would offer you that same dinner in exchange for letting me watch you use your computer for a while, is it free? I think ads do incur a cost on you: In usability of a service, in your attention span / desensitization and your ability to focus, in the money you would not have spent were it not for ads. Googles services are free in the sense, that you don't spend cold hard cash on them, but I would still argue, that you pay for them. That 2 Trillion Dollar valuation has to come from somewhere... :(
- someluccc 2y ago
  #1. Would I have used the computer at the same time/place/duration? Then yes it is free. It literally cost me nothing. #2. You can pay? Also is the argument somehow that the free thing isn’t free because the ad in it makes the UX worse? Also curious to know how many ads exactly do you get while using google workspace? drive? android? maps? Finally: You can literally use Chrome, Workspace, Drive, Android and Maps without seeing a single ad, without an ad blocker, without EVER using google search, for free.
  - hug 2y ago
    There are costs other than monetary associated with doing things. Just because you are not giving someone cash directly does not mean it is "free". Those semantics aside: - Maps has ads in the form of sponsored results all over the map. - Android is only a decently functional platform with Play services installed, which includes ads. I don't have an Android phone handy but I'm pretty sure there's up-sells included in quite a few places, I just can't name any right now. - Chrome is a browser you cannot use for its primary purpose without seeing ads. - Workspace is a directly paid-for product. Google is an ad company. Essentially all of its products are supported by advertising, and it's slightly odd to suggest they are not.
    - 2y ago
bryant 2y ago
> Have your ever sold your data? My data has been sold, yes. By me, no, because I don't have the means. But by others and especially by nefarious actors, absolutely. So indeed, it's not free. Just because data isn't liquid at the individual level doesn't mean it has no value.

nomat 2y ago

if you aren't considering the fact that your data is what enabled these companies to become such massive giants in the first place, you may be living outside of the EU.

dartos 2y ago

> A) Do you pay them? - No: then yes it is free And here we see the ostrich. When faced with the horrors of reality, sticks its head in the sand. It’s simpler in there.

someluccc 2y ago
Your data is worthless. Please do tell me how much you could sell your “data” for right now.
- alt227 2y ago
  The data of an individual may be worth something like $0.001 which is not that much to an individual. However the value is not nothing, and if you are a company with multiple billion users, that value of data can get pretty big pretty fast
- dartos 2y ago
  My data, sure, but the data of my entire age/racial/economic group is worth a lot to marketing firms. There’s a ton of that information in emails. That’s literally google’s business model. You think Gmail is free bc Google is nice? Come on…
  - someluccc 2y ago
    So in this transaction you’re exchanging something that is individually worthless for something that is individually valuable. Which is a bad thing and should stop. Right now! Ps: it’s also not like you’re paying so little that you could say you’re getting it for…… free
    - dartos 2y ago
      It’s really hard for me to take you seriously. You’re just poorly playing semantics to white knight for Google. Very weird. It’s a good deal for the individual, that’s why Gmail is popular. Trading something of low value for something of moderate value is not what “free” means… Say the data from me or any of my peers was worth 1/100th of a cent and we give that away… that means I am trading something of minor value for something else…
- diggernet 2y ago
  It's not worthless to companies who want to use it against me. I don't want to sell my data. I want companies to stop collecting it. In fact, I don't think I've seen anyone here wishing they could sell their data.
- zuminator 2y ago
  There are companies like Nielsen that will pay you directly for you to provide personal data. But regardless of that, there are plenty of things that we do for free, like babysitting our own kids or answering our own phones, that if provided to someone else we would get paid for. So if your data is worthless to you, that doesn't mean it's not valuable to someone else. And we know for a fact that data is valuable, so why are you even raising this point, except to be argumentative for its own sake?
someluccc 2y ago
If I build a movie theater and give away the tickets knowing that I can make money on ads before a movie that does not mean that 5 minutes of your eyesight is now worth something
- nosianu 2y ago
  > that does not mean that 5 minutes of your eyesight is now worth something The advertisers paying to get their ads placed in front of those eyes disagree. And ye, since another comment questions this, data or "eye-time are similar - they can be broken down to the individual. The advertisers pay some price expecting a certain number of people to see the ad, and even if data about people is sold in bulk (too) there is a price per individual. It's a simple division to see the price they pay per person to view that cinema ad, or for one person's data, even if they always purchase those in bulk. After all, they get to the bulk price by multiplying how much they are willing to pay for one individual with the expected (or in the case of data packages known) number of individuals.
  - someluccc 2y ago
    You can literally use Chrome, Workspace, Drive, Android and Maps without seeing a single ad, without an ad blocker, without EVER using google search, for free.
    - threeseed 2y ago
      Google Maps is full of local search ads and Workspaces isn't free. Also Chrome exists primarily to ensure their ads business remains healthy i.e. they have massively watered down privacy restrictions.
    - nosianu 2y ago
      Uhmm.... I have to admit that I fail to see any connection whatsoever between your original comment that I replied to (included in the reply) and your reply...
    - alt227 2y ago

braabe 2y ago

All of these examples are probably in part or fully paid for with some sort of taxes. So it is less "no payments" and more "deferred payments". I would argue that the question of "Is it free?" should not be restricted to monetary payments. If I offer you dinner for an hour of yardwork - are you receiving the food for free? If I would offer you that same dinner in exchange for letting me watch you use your computer for a while, is it free? I think ads do incur a cost on you: In usability of a service, in your attention span / desensitization and your ability to focus, in the money you would not have spent were it not for ads. Googles services are free in the sense, that you don't spend cold hard cash on them, but I would still argue, that you pay for them. That 2 Trillion Dollar valuation has to come from somewhere... :(

someluccc 2y ago
#1. Would I have used the computer at the same time/place/duration? Then yes it is free. It literally cost me nothing. #2. You can pay? Also is the argument somehow that the free thing isn’t free because the ad in it makes the UX worse? Also curious to know how many ads exactly do you get while using google workspace? drive? android? maps? Finally: You can literally use Chrome, Workspace, Drive, Android and Maps without seeing a single ad, without an ad blocker, without EVER using google search, for free.
- hug 2y ago
  There are costs other than monetary associated with doing things. Just because you are not giving someone cash directly does not mean it is "free". Those semantics aside: - Maps has ads in the form of sponsored results all over the map. - Android is only a decently functional platform with Play services installed, which includes ads. I don't have an Android phone handy but I'm pretty sure there's up-sells included in quite a few places, I just can't name any right now. - Chrome is a browser you cannot use for its primary purpose without seeing ads. - Workspace is a directly paid-for product. Google is an ad company. Essentially all of its products are supported by advertising, and it's slightly odd to suggest they are not.
  - 2y ago

bryant 2y ago

> Have your ever sold your data? My data has been sold, yes. By me, no, because I don't have the means. But by others and especially by nefarious actors, absolutely. So indeed, it's not free. Just because data isn't liquid at the individual level doesn't mean it has no value.