15 ms·

Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

359 points by vitabenes 3y ago

loneranger_11x 3y ago
Spot on argument. Especially valuable piece of advice is to find 25-30 minutes of uninterrupted time and aim to knock out one small task. Even if you didn't finish it, note down progress and next steps. Go at it again in the next slot. Taking notes will both help you track progress and give you a sense of movement. It will also make sure that you can easily regain context in the next attempt.
- bru3s 3y ago
  I agree wholeheartedly. I've been stuck in a rut of procrastination for the last several years, during which I hardly ever started side projects or experiments due to tired old excuses such as "I simply don't have enough time", "This would at least need x hours per day", etc. When I eventually tried to start something, it would inevitably be delayed by other daily things to carry out (work, family, other life related stuff), so not taking notes would always result in "" have no idea what I was aiming for last time". Add to that a fairly (un)healthy dose of perfectionism coming from working in the same field, and you have a recipe for years wasted on complete inactivity. Another fiend of this kind, friendly to procrastination, is the inability to decide what to actually work on, especially when you have a lot of interests. Then the question becomes "I have hours available to work on something, but I cannot pull the trigger on any of those things that interest me", so back again to square 1 with year wasted on indecisiveness with nothing to show for it.
  - thoughtFrame 3y ago
    For both of your cases, the "25 to 30 minutes task" trick won't work at all. For a case that persists for years, what I've learned is that it's either real ADHD, or some emotional problem around the topic. For me, it was 100% an emotional problem, though I do have a bit of a scattered mind, but I can focus it, whereas I've seen people with serious ADHD who can't do it at all and need meds (among other things). For example, having many interests is fine, but when it comes to choice, what keeps you stuck can be something like a complete fear of regretting the choice. Words like lazyness or perfectionism are usually the sheep's clothing that the wolf (emotion) is wearing. How can some organizational trick from a blog post help here? I've read lots of self-help books (among other things) when I faced these issues a few years ago, and there's a curious commonality: it's all small tricks developed for the author's personal experience. But what I've noticed is that there are two kinds of people in these situations: the ones who don't a solution and get out of the problem (which is the group that happens to include most of those authors), and the ones who stay stuck looking for an answer, a quick solution, a trick to escape. The first type can get out by using something like the GTD book. That means their problem really was that they lacked some crucial bit of organizational knowledge to unlock their path towards whatever they want to do. But the latter type (the ones who're stuck in the cycle) need to let something go rather than accumulate new things (in this case, tips and tricks about Getting Things Done). There's the DIY path (hard, involves journaling, introspection, noticing and categorizing your emotions, reading Jung, reading ancient texts like the Bhagavad Gita) and the psychologist path (you need to find a good paychologist who doesn't just ask "and what do you feel about it?" over and over but actually takes an active role in your situation and your circumstances)
    - bru3s 3y ago
      > For both of your cases, the "25 to 30 minutes task" trick won't work at all. For a case that persists for years, what I've learned is that it's either real ADHD, or some emotional problem around the topic. For me, it was 100% an emotional problem, though I do have a bit of a scattered mind, but I can focus it, whereas I've seen people with serious ADHD who can't do it at all and need meds (among other things). I'm not so sure about that. Mind you, I had already been thinking that putting some effort in limited amount of time instead of doing nothing at all before reading the article, so if anything the latter gave me some more confidence that it's actually a solution that at least worked for someone > But the latter type (the ones who're stuck in the cycle) need to let something go rather than accumulate new things (in this case, tips and tricks about Getting Things Done). On that front, I thing you're perfectly right. > There's the DIY path (hard, involves journaling, introspection, noticing and categorizing your emotions, reading Jung, reading ancient texts like the Bhagavad Gita) and the psychologist path (you need to find a good paychologist who doesn't just ask "and what do you feel about it?" over and over but actually takes an active role in your situation and your circumstances) Admittedly I don't feel 100% sure that what you just wrote doesn't apply to me, so would you mind expanding a bit more on the details? Why would procrastination in a case like mine be linked to emotional issue? Actually even better, was it that for you? In which way did this link exist, and how did you find out? How did you managed to solve it, if you solved it at all? Thanks for replying
      - thoughtFrame 3y ago
        (there's a typo in my post: "the ones who don't a solution and get out of the problem" ought to be "the ones who find a solution and get out of the problem") > I'm not so sure about that. Mind you, I had already been thinking that putting some effort in limited amount of time instead of doing nothing at all before reading the article, so if anything the latter gave me some more confidence that it's actually a solution that at least worked for someone Yes, absolutely, but for the kind of people I'm talking about, it's like telling an overweight person to "just go to the gym, bro". It works, yeah, but there's some who do buckle up and go to the gym, and there's others who stay stuck in a cycle and don't take any steps out even thought from the outside, what they have to do is obvious (for example, some cope with stress or anxiety by eating. How can they become healthier without tackling the root of the issue, which is the source of the stress/anxiety? This is what I mean by things having emotional causes) For ADHD, you needn't look too far. There's a top comment in this thread about someone who spent 40 years with these issues until they got actual help. Once the root is identified (diagnosed) then the difficulty in dealing with the problem goes down. ------------------ > Actually even better, was it that for you? It's good that you ask this, because I don't know your situation. As for me, I basically tried to exhaust the possibilities by reading self help books, then moving into philosophy (mostly eastern) and then moving into psychology (via Jung's books, and Alok Kanojia's youtube videos). No tip or trick helped me, and intellectually, I knew what the right answer was all along (an equivalent of "just go to the gym"). But that still didn't translate to action, which surprised me. In the end, I was forced to leave my overly intellectual/rational view of the world, and delve into what Jung called Eros, a contrast of Logos. But don't be distracted by the name. Perhaps it's better to talk about "intelligence quotient" (IQ) and "emotional quotient" (EQ). My underdeveloped EQ was causing me quite a bit of problems, because I wasn't aware of my emotions, of what I was feeling, of why I moved towards some things and not towards others. EQ is related to motivation, among other things. That's where what I wrote in the DIY path comes in. It took me a year of work. And it taught me a very interesting meta-lesson: I noticed in hindsight the amount of effort that I had put into this problem. It made me feel so desperate that I spent hours and hours going through books, taking notes every day, and learning a lot. But for the areas that really mattered to me, I had been led away. The lesson is that the more intellectually important something is to me, the harder it becomes to deal with it. This can manifest as perfectionisn. For example, I don't care at all about how my books are arranged in my bookshelf. So I place them as they fit. But if I care a lot about organization, I may keep them in boxes for years while I fret over the best way to implement the Dewey system for my 1000+ books and also planning (but not writing!) an app to scan my books into a local database and so on. (What do I mean by "intellectually important"? It's whatever we aren't led to by our emotions yet still matters to us. When I was led by the emotion of despair, I studied ceaselessly to get rid of it. But when I think about wanting to do something without a strong emotion backing it, it's harder to jump into it without forcing yourself) So I care about a lot of things, and I care a lot. Also, I want to work on everything. So my inaction here was because I was scared of the possibility of letting go of the others if I dedicate myself to a few things, and truly focused on them, devoting my time and energy to that endeavour. That's what annoyed me when I saw others, who spent years on making their passion project (whether a game, a set of paintings, a program or a tool to help others, a web novel they self-published, or whatever else)... And I knew what I had to do. Do what they did but for what I care about, for my ideas that I feel so strongly about. And I wasn't doing it. It's fucking annoying, like trying to lift your hand (which you know works perfectly) but you can't. As for your case, only you can find out. The first link that therapists will try to find inside you is trauma, because that kind of stuff has far-reaching consequences on everything in your life, including motivation. But it's not always trauma, so don't think that there must have been something suppressed inside you or whatever. For example, I had a lot of problems from having been a "gifted kid", being treated like I'm super smart and whatnot. That pushed me away from hard work and from things that weren't immediately easy, and that a big root cause. But it wasn't a trauma of any kind - I had a normal childhood About my progress... I'm working on it and getting much better. I recently passed a big exam, and I'm honing some of my skills, putting in the hard work. Good luck on your path
  - adadadadadad 3y ago
    [dead]
  - dboreham 3y ago
    Try viewing this as "I'm so effective at doing things that other people want me to do way more things than I have time for".
- sanderjd 3y ago
  Honestly, I really don't relate to this. I don't have tasks I can do in 25 or 30 minutes, except for the exact kind of "marking messages read" tasks that leave me feeling empty at the end of the day. > Even if you didn't finish it, note down progress and next steps. Go at it again in the next slot. For me, these notes would mostly be "spent 25 minutes rebuilding context, got pulled away" over and over again. I think there are some good techniques in this article. Taking notes is good. But I don't think embracing the chaos is the way to go, I think being a lot more proactive and firm about giving yourself the time you need to focus and do high quality work is the better approach. If every day is becoming a mess, start by figuring out how to fix that.
  - LoganDark 3y ago
    This is part of my issue, too. Not having no things to do in a short amount of time, but knowing that I don't have time, preventing me from starting. A lot of people have the ability to just dive in regardless of how much time they foresee having. I don't. I need to have time in order to feel safe starting anything. In the hours preceding something like a doctor's appointment, I can't do anything. Anything I start will be interrupted by the appointment, so I can't even try.
    - dboreham 3y ago
      This is just how the brain works. People who claim they can do a hard focused task in 20 min chunks are faking it. The article is trying to say I think "don't worry about that, because on average you will have some uninterrupted stretches in which to do the hard task, but right now get some simple shit done because that needs done too".
    - adadadadadad 3y ago
      Having endless uninterrupted time surprisingly doesn’t help either. “I cant start because the weekend is in 4 days”. Some of my most productive times have actually been sporadic bursts before appointments mainly for annoying tasks. The fact that you don’t have enough time seems to break the perfectionism blocker “I don’t have enough time so I’ll do a rush job of whatever I can knowing it will not be completed” and also avoids the self-disappointment pressure that would come from “I have plenty of time now but I still can’t work so I will never get it done”. It’s a time for building momentum. And it’s not like you are running away from the task purposely to procrastinate…it’s that you have no choice. It’s like how some people are calm and productive when everything is in chaos, because the chaos makes it obvious exactly what needs to be done and no one is judging how it’s done they just need it resolved and you will be a hero.
__natty__ 3y ago
I like to think about discipline in terms of habits, either built in a perfect environment or real and messy, as described in the article. The perfect ones are what we aim to achieve, but they are flimsy because once we are in a different environment, the habits disappear. The latter are much more prone to changes but harder to initialize.
- mingusrude 3y ago
  This is the conclusion that I've come to as well after trying for way too long to find inspiration to those things that I either want to do (on some level) or need to do. Habits are things you do that don't have a big hurdle. For years I've been able to run without feeling that there's a great resistance in doing it (I don't normally identify as a runner). But picking up some work that I want to do but don't feel it's the right moment to do has been a lot harder. Lately I've had some progress with at just doing tasks because it's become a habit when I have some time over.
  - adadadadadad 3y ago
    I run every day but totally struggle with work consistency. I have always wanted to transfer that discipline I have for running to work life but never managed it. I think the thing about running is I can’t just start watching YouTube and procrastinating along the way. And it’s much more straightforward - same every day with predictable and consistent reward. Plus there’s the adrenaline release.
hoc 3y ago
I also suggest to add a physical signal on your typical life accessories like phone or watch. E.g. swapping or adding a special colored case during productive time to remind you to return to focus on production when you tend to break into "day-dreaming". Does not make you start the day, but lets you keep going longer (ok, that might sound wrong, but let's keep it for its mnemonic value).
- corobo 3y ago
  I have a little silicone thumb ring I use for this. No idea why I bought a handful of them in the first place but they're useful for this sort of thing! If I'm wearing it, there's still work stuff on my todo list that needs doing today. Brings me back to the PC rather than coming in from a walk and doing a bunch of housework I notice on the way in haha. Hard to miss being on my hand, almost anything I could do while procrastinating will make me see it :)
  - hoc 3y ago
    Great. I'll add that to my signaling items options. Makes me wonder why I see bringing my phone being a safer bet than bringing my hands :)
    - corobo 3y ago
      In all fairness the phone is a very good choice too! It's likely the first port of call when procrastination tries to sneak in (which is exactly why I use it for medication reminders rather than a sticky note or something that might blend into the furniture after a day or two haha)
aaron695 3y ago
This site is bizarre. If you look at their stuff on addiction, they have no grounding in current theory. And by current theory, that's from science to religious ideas like prayer, nothing they talk about matches anything in the world from hard numbers to mysticism. They also have no explanation why they break with all the current theories or where their theories come from. By now they are a HN institution, but I'd be very wary following their advice if you medically depend on it working. deprocrastination.co is like a surreal movie, I think I like it, but I'm glad sites like these are not everywhere, like Scientology, fun because it's different. OP you should also create a new religion and run a site, you'd be good I think. That's not facetious-ism, but you'd have to be morally ok with it. [edit] As an example of what I'm saying related to this article - "Imperfect action > perfect nothing" has no real meaning. It's simplified to "action > nothing" What would be meaningful is "wrong action > perfect nothing" or "action > planning" But as you can see HN eats up stuff like "Imperfect action > perfect nothing" It's good writing.
- sanderjd 3y ago
  I think you may be right about the rest, but I don't understand your last point. "Imperfect action > perfect nothing" is not meaningless and does not simplify to "action > nothing". It's just a different (not nearly as evocative, IMO) way to say "don't let perfect be the enemy of good". And I think this is indeed an important point that chronic procrastinators constantly struggle with.
  - aaron695 3y ago
    [dead]
- adadadadadad 3y ago
  [dead]
- Apocryphon 3y ago
  What do they say about addiction? They've got so many articles on it.
detourdog 3y ago
There is also the idea that the common thing is more important than the extraordinary. Common everyday tasks should be higher priority than the extraordinary tasks.
masto 3y ago
The oversimplification and promises that if you just buy their thing you'll have a distraction free life in 14 days really irks me. I struggled with this stuff for over 40 years. Only last year, after a disastrous crash, did I start learning about ADHD, which finally gave me the language and tools and access to support that I needed to start making a meaningful difference. Without the understanding that diagnosis gave me, I'd tried every productivity technique and app, and came up with my own ad hoc systems, but they didn't stick and just reinforced the cycle of seeing myself as someone who's just doomed to live the life of a chronic procrastinator, always stressed out and overwhelmed. A course like this would have done nothing but separate me from some money and give me a temporary feeling that I found the magic answer to everything, leading to disappointment and self hatred when I inevitably dropped it all. I only have a personal anecdote, but if it sounds familiar, maybe there's some advice buried in it.
- LeafItAlone 3y ago
  With your diagnoses, what are you now doing that is helping you?
  - dartos 3y ago
    It may be a little weird, but the from us music from brain.fm really helps me. I’ve measured the work I get done over sprints where I listen to brain.fm and where I don’t, and I usually get 2-3 more cards done of weeks that I do. Not a scientific measurement, but it is what it is.
    - criddell 3y ago
      I'm intrigued, but brain.fm requires a credit card for a free trial. Bummer. Edit: I just checked my email and (in the spam folder) was an email from them with a link that works for 3 days. I'm trying it now.
      - dartos 3y ago
        FWIW I’ve been using brainfm for about 8 years. Granted, I got my account with a lifetime subscription back when they were just spinning up, but I’ve used them pretty consistently since then.
lupire 3y ago
I'm not comfortable taking advice on "deprocrastination" from someone who made procrastination their career (or side gig?), except for the advice "if you find yourself procrastinating, quit your job and make what you'd rather do your job". But that rarely pays the bills .
- bookofjoe 3y ago
  "Work is what you're doing when you'd rather be doing something else."
- LoganDark 3y ago
  Gee, I wish I had something stable that I'd "rather do". The problem is that even though I've had hundreds of hobbies, once I get good at something, I stop being able to do it. Not a single one of those hobbies lasts long enough to be a job.
- rapnie 3y ago
  There's also the "Price goes up in" and a counter (4 hrs from now). So don't procrastinate, buy now! Geez.
  - larrik 3y ago
    I believe that is 4 days, actually
    - LoganDark 3y ago
      Sure yesterday I said "tomorrow", so what? It's still not tomorrow yet, so I'm fine!
  - baapercollege 3y ago
    You posted 4 hours back. Timer for me still shows 4 hours ;) no worries, feel free to procrastinate on the purchase
codetrotter 3y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=deprocrastination.co https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=deprocrastination.co Interesting that pretty much all submissions on the first page of results from this domain is both by the same user and broadly seems to be about the same overarching theme of procrastination. Is OP the author of the site? (OP also posts links to other sites, so not saying OP is doing anything wrong though.)
- moritzwarhier 3y ago
  Since 7 of the last 30 submissions by OP are that site and the pattern continues, I find it absolutely understandable and good-faith to become suspicious. Other users have been accusing the same https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28894120 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28894120 I don't want to participate in a witch hunt here, but HN needs to stay vigilant against spam and self-promotion that exceeds the reasonable intersection with honestly showing personal projects. Discussions including "human interest" topics like this one are often of exceptional quality here. It would be bad to lose that. So I think it is fair to dicuss this openly. Sorry if I am being coming across as rude towards a one man enterprise or something, but self-promotion on HN should follow strict rules and if this is indeed promotion, it is breaking the rules.
  - StefanBatory 3y ago
    They might be just binging a site or just liking it to the point where they want to share every article. I would do so in the past too.
  - strongpigeon 3y ago
    Which rule is it breaking? From the guidelines: > Please don't use HN primarily for promotion. It's ok to post your own stuff part of the time, but the primary use of the site should be for curiosity.
  - Tomte 3y ago
    It‘s not breaking the rules. You‘re breaking the rules. Stop harassing people!
xyzzy4747 3y ago
In my experience the best way to solve procrastination, provided you have a tangible goal, is to do at least one small thing towards it per day. This will often (but not necessarily) put you in the mindset to do more things.
thiago_fm 3y ago
Great ideas. I believe that dealing with a messy ambient or situations is a nice skill to develop, some people can't handle it at all. With time, you'll start to appreciate the imperfections, the fact that you can't absolutely focus for a task because people are sending you messages, will have a smaller impact on your emotions and your overall focus will improve. Having the goal of having absolute uninterrupted time and the stars aligning so you can just do what you need is the root of all procrastination, doing something 10% is better than 0%. I'm a perfectionist and as soon as I've started thinking, reflecting and accepting real and even half-assed solutions to problems, my life started to improve, and it became lighter as well. You also don't need to worry, you can't unlearn being a perfectionist, but indeed, you need a few things or moments of your day to unleash that "perfection' energy, it just doesn't need to be everytime.
- grvdrm 3y ago
  > I've started thinking, reflecting and accepting real and even half-assed solutions to problems, my life started to improve, and it became lighter as well. Love it. Great job. I feel the same. Good enough works well in many situations.
mustafabisic1 3y ago
[dead]
xyzelement 3y ago
My first couple of weeks at Bridgewater I was diagnosed with a fear of failure - deep reluctance to set off on a journey unless I could see the entire path through to the other side. I thought that was a good way to be actually (keeps you safe from doomed endeavors) but obviously keeps you from progressing on things where the only way to figure out the path is to walk it. In retrospect it’s a form of anxiety. If you assume the world is against you and dangerous then setting into an ambiguous space is probabilistically negative. If you have faith that things work out for the best, it lets you set out on such a path easier. I think this isn’t just me. We tend to procrastinate in the absence of “perfection “ because we perceive some sort of danger / downside for ourselves from that imperfection. Whereas the better way to think is with the end in mind: what outcome do I really care about? Does this messy step X make that outcome a bit more likely? If yes then you do it with excitement.
- dakial1 3y ago
  You are describing me perfectly. One of the main things holding me back in life is this fear of taking risks (which translates into a lot of things, like procrastination) I'm great at mapping project risks though. So there is that. :)
  - xyzelement 3y ago
    I agree, and I think these are really easy to munge (and I've munged them) 1) your ability to perceive risk that is there to be perceived and act accordingly. 2) your ability to operate in places where you are not able to make risk-based decisions and you have to just "go for it" I am very good at #1 and it has been a handicap in navigating #2 because I keep searching for a "risk model" where one isn't available. That was the thing I've learned to overcome somewhat, as mentioned in the post you replied to.
- codelobe 3y ago
  To lessen the cost of the first step that begins The Thousand Mile Journey: I plan to do everything at least twice. Leave room for failure in the prediction to (at least partially) avoid the planning fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planning_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planning_fallacy (if you haven't encountered this one weird quirk yet, it's a must read/skim). I believe most mammals tend toward optimism... They naturally have less fear of doomed endeavors. I had an essay on Emergent Design Principles around here somewhere... For instance, I do a quick and dirty stab in the dark to map the problem space. Then totally rewrite and refactor now that I can make a more educated guess. Right then I generate the API and all (public function stubs), organizing and documenting everything. Management will demand I "ship it" without full docs and full of kluges otherwise... I'll save the rest of that for a more on-topic thread. The gist is that procrastination can be countered by allotting time to play around in the problem space (incorporate procrastination into workflow -- can't beat it, join it). At worse I try a deliberate attempt at failure (well I knew it wouldn't have worked, but it would have been cool if it had), and at least I got myself into "code mode" doing something at all. No fear of failure, since I planned to fail that time anyway. Then I'll at least know a bit better the "lay of the land" (problem space features to fit against). It's oft the first step for me that's the hardest. My favorite trick is to have at least one side project that I work on as procrastination of doing main projects. Without fail I'll be worrying about the main project enough that I'll realize some side-project procrastination-code I've just written shows an elegant way forward in the main project and I can no longer resist the urge to see it in action. At the least I'll be making some manner of progress, and getting closer to that "Zen" state wherein I do my main project work.
tokai 3y ago
Seems like a new-age con reformulated for the HN crowd.
adadadadadad 3y ago
I wonder if anyone had success by handing control of their life to a higher power…like ChatGPT. I wonder if you could prompt it to be a vicious task master boss who demands regular status updates and can adequately shame you.
- corobo 3y ago
  Tiny successes in something like this - I've got a whole system of timers that are either tracking what I'm doing or tracking the time when I'm not doing something during work time. From there I've got an automation that will send me a notification warning me the timewaster timer is about to start and that I should start working on something. There's a tiny slither of shame in there that seems to be helping! :) I am also working on a more thought out app/system/service/bot that does indeed use GPT (and regular old if statements and cron jobs) to help me schedule out my tasks for the day, recover my schedule after missing tasks, shame me via a messenger interface for leaving a task on my list too long, etc... but in the most obvious case of irony I keep procrastinating on actually building it. It's getting there slowly :)
  - adadadadadad 3y ago
    > tracking what I'm doing or tracking the time when I'm not doing something during work time. Made me think of a chess timer. Maybe I will buy one now haha. — I’ve found that any ideas I have for projects to help with procrastination never get done. It’s the ultimate procrastination and there is no end to it. It doubly kills my motivation because now I have to be thinking how much more efficient I would be if I had my tools which I currently don’t have. So even if I eventually start working, now it feels even harder :D I think there are a lot of rabbit holes like this in programming in general.
- hindsightbias 3y ago
  What if we built procrastination into LLMs?
  - adadadadadad 3y ago
hindsightbias 3y ago
How many of you have checked other media while reading this content or thread?
- thefatboy 3y ago
  I was watching Constellation while reading this and didn't like the show... switched to something else while typing this comment.
MichaelRo 3y ago
All these advice on productivity ultimately seem to wanna turn you into some sort of assembly line robot, achieve maximum productivity, produce! Well funk that, in the end what matters is persistence. You don't need to work 12 hours per day, heck don't even need to work 8 ;) ;) ;) I mean like everyone knows the productivity window is at best a couple hours. But those couple hours add up and in the end somehow stuff gets done, tasks get completed, company carries on. And on my own side projects I'm applying the same philosophy. Ideally a little bit from time to time (not even every day coze it starts to look too much like work). And if it happens that I start working and some interruption comes along, so be it, there will be another day. I don't have to ship tomorrow as long as I finish eventually. Over the years this has added up to quite a bit of accomplishments. So one word: persistence.
SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
I was suffering from procrastination last 3 years. The reason was 1) burnout. 2) some biological health issues I did not know about. Once I fixed that it went away. No philosophy was needed. So no, no amount of incantations will help, if you are biologically unwell.

359 points by vitabenes 3y ago

Spot on argument. Especially valuable piece of advice is to find 25-30 minutes of uninterrupted time and aim to knock out one small task. Even if you didn't finish it, note down progress and next steps. Go at it again in the next slot. Taking notes will both help you track progress and give you a sense of movement. It will also make sure that you can easily regain context in the next attempt.

bru3s 3y ago
I agree wholeheartedly. I've been stuck in a rut of procrastination for the last several years, during which I hardly ever started side projects or experiments due to tired old excuses such as "I simply don't have enough time", "This would at least need x hours per day", etc. When I eventually tried to start something, it would inevitably be delayed by other daily things to carry out (work, family, other life related stuff), so not taking notes would always result in "" have no idea what I was aiming for last time". Add to that a fairly (un)healthy dose of perfectionism coming from working in the same field, and you have a recipe for years wasted on complete inactivity. Another fiend of this kind, friendly to procrastination, is the inability to decide what to actually work on, especially when you have a lot of interests. Then the question becomes "I have hours available to work on something, but I cannot pull the trigger on any of those things that interest me", so back again to square 1 with year wasted on indecisiveness with nothing to show for it.
- thoughtFrame 3y ago
  For both of your cases, the "25 to 30 minutes task" trick won't work at all. For a case that persists for years, what I've learned is that it's either real ADHD, or some emotional problem around the topic. For me, it was 100% an emotional problem, though I do have a bit of a scattered mind, but I can focus it, whereas I've seen people with serious ADHD who can't do it at all and need meds (among other things). For example, having many interests is fine, but when it comes to choice, what keeps you stuck can be something like a complete fear of regretting the choice. Words like lazyness or perfectionism are usually the sheep's clothing that the wolf (emotion) is wearing. How can some organizational trick from a blog post help here? I've read lots of self-help books (among other things) when I faced these issues a few years ago, and there's a curious commonality: it's all small tricks developed for the author's personal experience. But what I've noticed is that there are two kinds of people in these situations: the ones who don't a solution and get out of the problem (which is the group that happens to include most of those authors), and the ones who stay stuck looking for an answer, a quick solution, a trick to escape. The first type can get out by using something like the GTD book. That means their problem really was that they lacked some crucial bit of organizational knowledge to unlock their path towards whatever they want to do. But the latter type (the ones who're stuck in the cycle) need to let something go rather than accumulate new things (in this case, tips and tricks about Getting Things Done). There's the DIY path (hard, involves journaling, introspection, noticing and categorizing your emotions, reading Jung, reading ancient texts like the Bhagavad Gita) and the psychologist path (you need to find a good paychologist who doesn't just ask "and what do you feel about it?" over and over but actually takes an active role in your situation and your circumstances)
  - bru3s 3y ago
    > For both of your cases, the "25 to 30 minutes task" trick won't work at all. For a case that persists for years, what I've learned is that it's either real ADHD, or some emotional problem around the topic. For me, it was 100% an emotional problem, though I do have a bit of a scattered mind, but I can focus it, whereas I've seen people with serious ADHD who can't do it at all and need meds (among other things). I'm not so sure about that. Mind you, I had already been thinking that putting some effort in limited amount of time instead of doing nothing at all before reading the article, so if anything the latter gave me some more confidence that it's actually a solution that at least worked for someone > But the latter type (the ones who're stuck in the cycle) need to let something go rather than accumulate new things (in this case, tips and tricks about Getting Things Done). On that front, I thing you're perfectly right. > There's the DIY path (hard, involves journaling, introspection, noticing and categorizing your emotions, reading Jung, reading ancient texts like the Bhagavad Gita) and the psychologist path (you need to find a good paychologist who doesn't just ask "and what do you feel about it?" over and over but actually takes an active role in your situation and your circumstances) Admittedly I don't feel 100% sure that what you just wrote doesn't apply to me, so would you mind expanding a bit more on the details? Why would procrastination in a case like mine be linked to emotional issue? Actually even better, was it that for you? In which way did this link exist, and how did you find out? How did you managed to solve it, if you solved it at all? Thanks for replying
    - thoughtFrame 3y ago
      (there's a typo in my post: "the ones who don't a solution and get out of the problem" ought to be "the ones who find a solution and get out of the problem") > I'm not so sure about that. Mind you, I had already been thinking that putting some effort in limited amount of time instead of doing nothing at all before reading the article, so if anything the latter gave me some more confidence that it's actually a solution that at least worked for someone Yes, absolutely, but for the kind of people I'm talking about, it's like telling an overweight person to "just go to the gym, bro". It works, yeah, but there's some who do buckle up and go to the gym, and there's others who stay stuck in a cycle and don't take any steps out even thought from the outside, what they have to do is obvious (for example, some cope with stress or anxiety by eating. How can they become healthier without tackling the root of the issue, which is the source of the stress/anxiety? This is what I mean by things having emotional causes) For ADHD, you needn't look too far. There's a top comment in this thread about someone who spent 40 years with these issues until they got actual help. Once the root is identified (diagnosed) then the difficulty in dealing with the problem goes down. ------------------ > Actually even better, was it that for you? It's good that you ask this, because I don't know your situation. As for me, I basically tried to exhaust the possibilities by reading self help books, then moving into philosophy (mostly eastern) and then moving into psychology (via Jung's books, and Alok Kanojia's youtube videos). No tip or trick helped me, and intellectually, I knew what the right answer was all along (an equivalent of "just go to the gym"). But that still didn't translate to action, which surprised me. In the end, I was forced to leave my overly intellectual/rational view of the world, and delve into what Jung called Eros, a contrast of Logos. But don't be distracted by the name. Perhaps it's better to talk about "intelligence quotient" (IQ) and "emotional quotient" (EQ). My underdeveloped EQ was causing me quite a bit of problems, because I wasn't aware of my emotions, of what I was feeling, of why I moved towards some things and not towards others. EQ is related to motivation, among other things. That's where what I wrote in the DIY path comes in. It took me a year of work. And it taught me a very interesting meta-lesson: I noticed in hindsight the amount of effort that I had put into this problem. It made me feel so desperate that I spent hours and hours going through books, taking notes every day, and learning a lot. But for the areas that really mattered to me, I had been led away. The lesson is that the more intellectually important something is to me, the harder it becomes to deal with it. This can manifest as perfectionisn. For example, I don't care at all about how my books are arranged in my bookshelf. So I place them as they fit. But if I care a lot about organization, I may keep them in boxes for years while I fret over the best way to implement the Dewey system for my 1000+ books and also planning (but not writing!) an app to scan my books into a local database and so on. (What do I mean by "intellectually important"? It's whatever we aren't led to by our emotions yet still matters to us. When I was led by the emotion of despair, I studied ceaselessly to get rid of it. But when I think about wanting to do something without a strong emotion backing it, it's harder to jump into it without forcing yourself) So I care about a lot of things, and I care a lot. Also, I want to work on everything. So my inaction here was because I was scared of the possibility of letting go of the others if I dedicate myself to a few things, and truly focused on them, devoting my time and energy to that endeavour. That's what annoyed me when I saw others, who spent years on making their passion project (whether a game, a set of paintings, a program or a tool to help others, a web novel they self-published, or whatever else)... And I knew what I had to do. Do what they did but for what I care about, for my ideas that I feel so strongly about. And I wasn't doing it. It's fucking annoying, like trying to lift your hand (which you know works perfectly) but you can't. As for your case, only you can find out. The first link that therapists will try to find inside you is trauma, because that kind of stuff has far-reaching consequences on everything in your life, including motivation. But it's not always trauma, so don't think that there must have been something suppressed inside you or whatever. For example, I had a lot of problems from having been a "gifted kid", being treated like I'm super smart and whatnot. That pushed me away from hard work and from things that weren't immediately easy, and that a big root cause. But it wasn't a trauma of any kind - I had a normal childhood About my progress... I'm working on it and getting much better. I recently passed a big exam, and I'm honing some of my skills, putting in the hard work. Good luck on your path
- adadadadadad 3y ago
  [dead]
- dboreham 3y ago
  Try viewing this as "I'm so effective at doing things that other people want me to do way more things than I have time for".
sanderjd 3y ago
Honestly, I really don't relate to this. I don't have tasks I can do in 25 or 30 minutes, except for the exact kind of "marking messages read" tasks that leave me feeling empty at the end of the day. > Even if you didn't finish it, note down progress and next steps. Go at it again in the next slot. For me, these notes would mostly be "spent 25 minutes rebuilding context, got pulled away" over and over again. I think there are some good techniques in this article. Taking notes is good. But I don't think embracing the chaos is the way to go, I think being a lot more proactive and firm about giving yourself the time you need to focus and do high quality work is the better approach. If every day is becoming a mess, start by figuring out how to fix that.
- LoganDark 3y ago
  This is part of my issue, too. Not having no things to do in a short amount of time, but knowing that I don't have time, preventing me from starting. A lot of people have the ability to just dive in regardless of how much time they foresee having. I don't. I need to have time in order to feel safe starting anything. In the hours preceding something like a doctor's appointment, I can't do anything. Anything I start will be interrupted by the appointment, so I can't even try.
  - dboreham 3y ago
    This is just how the brain works. People who claim they can do a hard focused task in 20 min chunks are faking it. The article is trying to say I think "don't worry about that, because on average you will have some uninterrupted stretches in which to do the hard task, but right now get some simple shit done because that needs done too".
  - adadadadadad 3y ago
    Having endless uninterrupted time surprisingly doesn’t help either. “I cant start because the weekend is in 4 days”. Some of my most productive times have actually been sporadic bursts before appointments mainly for annoying tasks. The fact that you don’t have enough time seems to break the perfectionism blocker “I don’t have enough time so I’ll do a rush job of whatever I can knowing it will not be completed” and also avoids the self-disappointment pressure that would come from “I have plenty of time now but I still can’t work so I will never get it done”. It’s a time for building momentum. And it’s not like you are running away from the task purposely to procrastinate…it’s that you have no choice. It’s like how some people are calm and productive when everything is in chaos, because the chaos makes it obvious exactly what needs to be done and no one is judging how it’s done they just need it resolved and you will be a hero.

__natty__ 3y ago

I like to think about discipline in terms of habits, either built in a perfect environment or real and messy, as described in the article. The perfect ones are what we aim to achieve, but they are flimsy because once we are in a different environment, the habits disappear. The latter are much more prone to changes but harder to initialize.

mingusrude 3y ago
This is the conclusion that I've come to as well after trying for way too long to find inspiration to those things that I either want to do (on some level) or need to do. Habits are things you do that don't have a big hurdle. For years I've been able to run without feeling that there's a great resistance in doing it (I don't normally identify as a runner). But picking up some work that I want to do but don't feel it's the right moment to do has been a lot harder. Lately I've had some progress with at just doing tasks because it's become a habit when I have some time over.
- adadadadadad 3y ago
  I run every day but totally struggle with work consistency. I have always wanted to transfer that discipline I have for running to work life but never managed it. I think the thing about running is I can’t just start watching YouTube and procrastinating along the way. And it’s much more straightforward - same every day with predictable and consistent reward. Plus there’s the adrenaline release.

hoc 3y ago

I also suggest to add a physical signal on your typical life accessories like phone or watch. E.g. swapping or adding a special colored case during productive time to remind you to return to focus on production when you tend to break into "day-dreaming". Does not make you start the day, but lets you keep going longer (ok, that might sound wrong, but let's keep it for its mnemonic value).

corobo 3y ago
I have a little silicone thumb ring I use for this. No idea why I bought a handful of them in the first place but they're useful for this sort of thing! If I'm wearing it, there's still work stuff on my todo list that needs doing today. Brings me back to the PC rather than coming in from a walk and doing a bunch of housework I notice on the way in haha. Hard to miss being on my hand, almost anything I could do while procrastinating will make me see it :)
- hoc 3y ago
  Great. I'll add that to my signaling items options. Makes me wonder why I see bringing my phone being a safer bet than bringing my hands :)
  - corobo 3y ago
    In all fairness the phone is a very good choice too! It's likely the first port of call when procrastination tries to sneak in (which is exactly why I use it for medication reminders rather than a sticky note or something that might blend into the furniture after a day or two haha)

aaron695 3y ago

This site is bizarre. If you look at their stuff on addiction, they have no grounding in current theory. And by current theory, that's from science to religious ideas like prayer, nothing they talk about matches anything in the world from hard numbers to mysticism. They also have no explanation why they break with all the current theories or where their theories come from. By now they are a HN institution, but I'd be very wary following their advice if you medically depend on it working. deprocrastination.co is like a surreal movie, I think I like it, but I'm glad sites like these are not everywhere, like Scientology, fun because it's different. OP you should also create a new religion and run a site, you'd be good I think. That's not facetious-ism, but you'd have to be morally ok with it. [edit] As an example of what I'm saying related to this article - "Imperfect action > perfect nothing" has no real meaning. It's simplified to "action > nothing" What would be meaningful is "wrong action > perfect nothing" or "action > planning" But as you can see HN eats up stuff like "Imperfect action > perfect nothing" It's good writing.

sanderjd 3y ago
I think you may be right about the rest, but I don't understand your last point. "Imperfect action > perfect nothing" is not meaningless and does not simplify to "action > nothing". It's just a different (not nearly as evocative, IMO) way to say "don't let perfect be the enemy of good". And I think this is indeed an important point that chronic procrastinators constantly struggle with.
- aaron695 3y ago
  [dead]
adadadadadad 3y ago
[dead]
Apocryphon 3y ago
What do they say about addiction? They've got so many articles on it.

detourdog 3y ago

There is also the idea that the common thing is more important than the extraordinary. Common everyday tasks should be higher priority than the extraordinary tasks.

masto 3y ago

The oversimplification and promises that if you just buy their thing you'll have a distraction free life in 14 days really irks me. I struggled with this stuff for over 40 years. Only last year, after a disastrous crash, did I start learning about ADHD, which finally gave me the language and tools and access to support that I needed to start making a meaningful difference. Without the understanding that diagnosis gave me, I'd tried every productivity technique and app, and came up with my own ad hoc systems, but they didn't stick and just reinforced the cycle of seeing myself as someone who's just doomed to live the life of a chronic procrastinator, always stressed out and overwhelmed. A course like this would have done nothing but separate me from some money and give me a temporary feeling that I found the magic answer to everything, leading to disappointment and self hatred when I inevitably dropped it all. I only have a personal anecdote, but if it sounds familiar, maybe there's some advice buried in it.

LeafItAlone 3y ago
With your diagnoses, what are you now doing that is helping you?
- dartos 3y ago
  It may be a little weird, but the from us music from brain.fm really helps me. I’ve measured the work I get done over sprints where I listen to brain.fm and where I don’t, and I usually get 2-3 more cards done of weeks that I do. Not a scientific measurement, but it is what it is.
  - criddell 3y ago
    I'm intrigued, but brain.fm requires a credit card for a free trial. Bummer. Edit: I just checked my email and (in the spam folder) was an email from them with a link that works for 3 days. I'm trying it now.
    - dartos 3y ago
      FWIW I’ve been using brainfm for about 8 years. Granted, I got my account with a lifetime subscription back when they were just spinning up, but I’ve used them pretty consistently since then.

lupire 3y ago

I'm not comfortable taking advice on "deprocrastination" from someone who made procrastination their career (or side gig?), except for the advice "if you find yourself procrastinating, quit your job and make what you'd rather do your job". But that rarely pays the bills .

bookofjoe 3y ago
"Work is what you're doing when you'd rather be doing something else."
LoganDark 3y ago
Gee, I wish I had something stable that I'd "rather do". The problem is that even though I've had hundreds of hobbies, once I get good at something, I stop being able to do it. Not a single one of those hobbies lasts long enough to be a job.
rapnie 3y ago
There's also the "Price goes up in" and a counter (4 hrs from now). So don't procrastinate, buy now! Geez.
- larrik 3y ago
  I believe that is 4 days, actually
  - LoganDark 3y ago
    Sure yesterday I said "tomorrow", so what? It's still not tomorrow yet, so I'm fine!
- baapercollege 3y ago
  You posted 4 hours back. Timer for me still shows 4 hours ;) no worries, feel free to procrastinate on the purchase

codetrotter 3y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=deprocrastination.co https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=deprocrastination.co Interesting that pretty much all submissions on the first page of results from this domain is both by the same user and broadly seems to be about the same overarching theme of procrastination. Is OP the author of the site? (OP also posts links to other sites, so not saying OP is doing anything wrong though.)

moritzwarhier 3y ago
Since 7 of the last 30 submissions by OP are that site and the pattern continues, I find it absolutely understandable and good-faith to become suspicious. Other users have been accusing the same https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28894120 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28894120 I don't want to participate in a witch hunt here, but HN needs to stay vigilant against spam and self-promotion that exceeds the reasonable intersection with honestly showing personal projects. Discussions including "human interest" topics like this one are often of exceptional quality here. It would be bad to lose that. So I think it is fair to dicuss this openly. Sorry if I am being coming across as rude towards a one man enterprise or something, but self-promotion on HN should follow strict rules and if this is indeed promotion, it is breaking the rules.
- StefanBatory 3y ago
  They might be just binging a site or just liking it to the point where they want to share every article. I would do so in the past too.
- strongpigeon 3y ago
  Which rule is it breaking? From the guidelines: > Please don't use HN primarily for promotion. It's ok to post your own stuff part of the time, but the primary use of the site should be for curiosity.
- Tomte 3y ago
  It‘s not breaking the rules. You‘re breaking the rules. Stop harassing people!

xyzzy4747 3y ago

In my experience the best way to solve procrastination, provided you have a tangible goal, is to do at least one small thing towards it per day. This will often (but not necessarily) put you in the mindset to do more things.

thiago_fm 3y ago

Great ideas. I believe that dealing with a messy ambient or situations is a nice skill to develop, some people can't handle it at all. With time, you'll start to appreciate the imperfections, the fact that you can't absolutely focus for a task because people are sending you messages, will have a smaller impact on your emotions and your overall focus will improve. Having the goal of having absolute uninterrupted time and the stars aligning so you can just do what you need is the root of all procrastination, doing something 10% is better than 0%. I'm a perfectionist and as soon as I've started thinking, reflecting and accepting real and even half-assed solutions to problems, my life started to improve, and it became lighter as well. You also don't need to worry, you can't unlearn being a perfectionist, but indeed, you need a few things or moments of your day to unleash that "perfection' energy, it just doesn't need to be everytime.

grvdrm 3y ago
> I've started thinking, reflecting and accepting real and even half-assed solutions to problems, my life started to improve, and it became lighter as well. Love it. Great job. I feel the same. Good enough works well in many situations.

mustafabisic1 3y ago

[dead]

xyzelement 3y ago

My first couple of weeks at Bridgewater I was diagnosed with a fear of failure - deep reluctance to set off on a journey unless I could see the entire path through to the other side. I thought that was a good way to be actually (keeps you safe from doomed endeavors) but obviously keeps you from progressing on things where the only way to figure out the path is to walk it. In retrospect it’s a form of anxiety. If you assume the world is against you and dangerous then setting into an ambiguous space is probabilistically negative. If you have faith that things work out for the best, it lets you set out on such a path easier. I think this isn’t just me. We tend to procrastinate in the absence of “perfection “ because we perceive some sort of danger / downside for ourselves from that imperfection. Whereas the better way to think is with the end in mind: what outcome do I really care about? Does this messy step X make that outcome a bit more likely? If yes then you do it with excitement.

dakial1 3y ago
You are describing me perfectly. One of the main things holding me back in life is this fear of taking risks (which translates into a lot of things, like procrastination) I'm great at mapping project risks though. So there is that. :)
- xyzelement 3y ago
  I agree, and I think these are really easy to munge (and I've munged them) 1) your ability to perceive risk that is there to be perceived and act accordingly. 2) your ability to operate in places where you are not able to make risk-based decisions and you have to just "go for it" I am very good at #1 and it has been a handicap in navigating #2 because I keep searching for a "risk model" where one isn't available. That was the thing I've learned to overcome somewhat, as mentioned in the post you replied to.
codelobe 3y ago
To lessen the cost of the first step that begins The Thousand Mile Journey: I plan to do everything at least twice. Leave room for failure in the prediction to (at least partially) avoid the planning fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planning_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planning_fallacy (if you haven't encountered this one weird quirk yet, it's a must read/skim). I believe most mammals tend toward optimism... They naturally have less fear of doomed endeavors. I had an essay on Emergent Design Principles around here somewhere... For instance, I do a quick and dirty stab in the dark to map the problem space. Then totally rewrite and refactor now that I can make a more educated guess. Right then I generate the API and all (public function stubs), organizing and documenting everything. Management will demand I "ship it" without full docs and full of kluges otherwise... I'll save the rest of that for a more on-topic thread. The gist is that procrastination can be countered by allotting time to play around in the problem space (incorporate procrastination into workflow -- can't beat it, join it). At worse I try a deliberate attempt at failure (well I knew it wouldn't have worked, but it would have been cool if it had), and at least I got myself into "code mode" doing something at all. No fear of failure, since I planned to fail that time anyway. Then I'll at least know a bit better the "lay of the land" (problem space features to fit against). It's oft the first step for me that's the hardest. My favorite trick is to have at least one side project that I work on as procrastination of doing main projects. Without fail I'll be worrying about the main project enough that I'll realize some side-project procrastination-code I've just written shows an elegant way forward in the main project and I can no longer resist the urge to see it in action. At the least I'll be making some manner of progress, and getting closer to that "Zen" state wherein I do my main project work.

tokai 3y ago

Seems like a new-age con reformulated for the HN crowd.

adadadadadad 3y ago

I wonder if anyone had success by handing control of their life to a higher power…like ChatGPT. I wonder if you could prompt it to be a vicious task master boss who demands regular status updates and can adequately shame you.

corobo 3y ago
Tiny successes in something like this - I've got a whole system of timers that are either tracking what I'm doing or tracking the time when I'm not doing something during work time. From there I've got an automation that will send me a notification warning me the timewaster timer is about to start and that I should start working on something. There's a tiny slither of shame in there that seems to be helping! :) I am also working on a more thought out app/system/service/bot that does indeed use GPT (and regular old if statements and cron jobs) to help me schedule out my tasks for the day, recover my schedule after missing tasks, shame me via a messenger interface for leaving a task on my list too long, etc... but in the most obvious case of irony I keep procrastinating on actually building it. It's getting there slowly :)
- adadadadadad 3y ago
  > tracking what I'm doing or tracking the time when I'm not doing something during work time. Made me think of a chess timer. Maybe I will buy one now haha. — I’ve found that any ideas I have for projects to help with procrastination never get done. It’s the ultimate procrastination and there is no end to it. It doubly kills my motivation because now I have to be thinking how much more efficient I would be if I had my tools which I currently don’t have. So even if I eventually start working, now it feels even harder :D I think there are a lot of rabbit holes like this in programming in general.
hindsightbias 3y ago
What if we built procrastination into LLMs?
- adadadadadad 3y ago

hindsightbias 3y ago

How many of you have checked other media while reading this content or thread?

thefatboy 3y ago
I was watching Constellation while reading this and didn't like the show... switched to something else while typing this comment.

MichaelRo 3y ago

All these advice on productivity ultimately seem to wanna turn you into some sort of assembly line robot, achieve maximum productivity, produce! Well funk that, in the end what matters is persistence. You don't need to work 12 hours per day, heck don't even need to work 8 ;) ;) ;) I mean like everyone knows the productivity window is at best a couple hours. But those couple hours add up and in the end somehow stuff gets done, tasks get completed, company carries on. And on my own side projects I'm applying the same philosophy. Ideally a little bit from time to time (not even every day coze it starts to look too much like work). And if it happens that I start working and some interruption comes along, so be it, there will be another day. I don't have to ship tomorrow as long as I finish eventually. Over the years this has added up to quite a bit of accomplishments. So one word: persistence.

SomeoneFromCA 3y ago

I was suffering from procrastination last 3 years. The reason was 1) burnout. 2) some biological health issues I did not know about. Once I fixed that it went away. No philosophy was needed. So no, no amount of incantations will help, if you are biologically unwell.