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Researchers discover physical cause of long Covid tiredness
- rdtennent 3y agoResearchers from Amsterdam UMC and Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam (VU) have discovered that the persistent fatigue in patients with long-COVID has a biological cause, namely mitochondria in muscle cells that produce less energy than in healthy patients. The results of the study were published today in Nature Communications.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Zelphyr 3y agoThis connects closely with and supports Dr. Chris Palmer’s brain energy theory.
- Zelphyr 3y agoCould someone explain why this is getting downvoted?
- feoren 3y ago> Palmer also sheds light on the new treatment pathways this theory opens up--which apply to all mental disorders, including anxiety, depression, ADHD, alcoholism, eating disorders, bipolar disorder, autism, and even schizophrenia. Because he's an obvious hack who's completely full of shit? I always wondered what kind of person would ever have bought those early 1900s "Dr. Amazing's Medicinal Tonic" claims about curing syphillis, headaches, snake bites, cancer, broken bones, and bad breath. I guess I found one?
- Zelphyr 3y agoCan you give concrete evidential examples that refute his claims?
- feoren 3y agoSure can, right after you give me concrete evidential examples that refute the Time Cube guy. The reason people don't bother to refute bullshit-on-their-face claims is because it takes 20x more effort to refute a bullshit claim than to make one in the first place, and it's absolutely pointless to argue with a hack who never intended to base his argument on evidence anyway. The best thing to do with these guys is completely ignore them, the same way they ignored the vast body of human knowledge and understanding in the first place.
- Zelphyr 3y agoI'm not saying you're wrong in your view of Dr. Palmer. I can see this is a subject that you have strong feelings about but, unfortunately, you've given me nothing to work with. I'm earnestly trying to understand another side of his claims, which is why I asked for more concrete evidence. I had not heard of "the Time Cube guy" before but a quick search brings up a lot of conspiracy theories. However, I don't see what that has to do with Dr. Palmer's Brain Energy theory. For what it's worth, I hate conspiracy theories. It's intellectual laziness. So, when you said Dr. Palmer's Brain Energy theory is pseudoscience I immediately wanted to know more because I want to be able to disregard it if the facts warrant that.
- feoren 3y agoI think my quoted passage says everything it needs to say (emphasis mine): > which apply to all mental disorders, including anxiety, depression, ADHD, alcoholism, eating disorders, bipolar disorder, autism, and even schizophrenia All mental disorders!? That is not the kind of claim anyone with a real discovery has ever made. Everyone who claims that their discovery could cure everything in that list is a huckster. He's claiming that mitochondrial issues cause everything that can ever go wrong with the brain! He's simply casting aside the possibility that any of these conditions could be caused by any of the dozens of causes that we know are associated with various cognitive decline (even if there isn't a simple causal link to any specific mental disorder): * Lead, mercury, or other heavy meatal poisoning * Neurotransmitter deficiencies or reuptake problems * Infection and auto-immune issues * Blood flow issues * Prions * Cell death from toxic substances (e.g. huffing paint) * Problems with myelin sheathing * Problems cleaning junk out of CSF The list goes on and on. No, screw all that, every other scientist on the planet is wrong: it's just this guy's one thing that he found that causes all mental disorders. Maybe he'd say "ok but lead poisoning is actually damaging the mitochondria, so I'm still right!" but that's at best moving the goal posts, and at worst obviously wrong: toxic metals damage everything. Other scientists have studied lead poisoning, and the main problem seems to be its action on myelin sheathing, not on mitochondria. Most of this stuff has no causal relationship with mitochondrial damage at all. You have to completely disregard almost the entire body of neuroscience to make the claims he's making. The list of "all mental disorders" is so vast, so complicated, so nuanced, that we can't even agree on what something like schizophrenia even is. We're talking about the brain: the most complicated system in the known universe. It's not all caused by this one guy's pet theory. Anyone who comes out of the gate with "Einstein was wrong! Perpetual motion machines! The rest of the world is lying!" can be completely ignored. This guy may not be explicitly claiming that every other scientist who studies the brain is wrong, but they are implicitly claiming that.
- kick_in_the_dor 3y ago> we saw that the mitochondria of the muscle, also known as the energy factories of the cell *Ahem*, powerhouse of the cell Jokes aside, this is a terrifying stat: "Although the majority of people infected with the SARS-CoV-2 virus recover within weeks...around one in eight will get long-COVID. Symptoms in patients with long-COVID...include severe cognitive problems (brain fog), fatigue, exercise intolerance, autonomic dysregulation..."
- xerox13ster 3y agoEven more terrifying considering we can be reinfected multiple times so we might be rolling those odds every time. E: changed "we are" to "we might be"
- frakt0x90 3y agoIt would be interesting to know if the odds decrease with reinfection. Are there any studies on that?
- subtra3t 3y agoAlso if there's a study on how the symptoms change with reinfection that'd be great too. EDIT: I just realised that some people may interpet the comment as saying that long-covid's symptoms are a great thing or something along those lines. I just meant that it would be nice to find such a study. Sorry.
- olivermuty 3y agoA news thing I read today said the trend was opposite. Norwegian article and no reference to whatever publication they based that claim on, but serious newspaper at least. So take the claim with a grain of salt.
- johnchristopher 3y agohttps://www.sciencealert.com/every-covid-infection-increases-your-risk-of-long-covid-study-warns https://www.sciencealert.com/every-covid-infection-increases... (just saw this one today, links to studies in the article)
- ikekkdcjkfke 3y ago[flagged]
- tasty_freeze 3y agoYou realize that there was no vaccine for about a year, during which millions of people were infected, many dying and many more left with long COVID symptoms. There is no need to scapegoat vaccines for causing these problems.
- OJFord 3y agoNot to mention the absurd arbitrariness of it if not even willing to propose a mechanism for it.
- progrus 3y agoOne mechanism is physiological stress when people believe they’ve been cursed: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447278/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447278/
- babypuncher 3y agoYou keep bringing that up, but Long Covid is exceptionally well documented at this point. We can't pretend it's entirely in peoples heads like you seem to be doing.
- j4yav 3y agoPeople have staked their whole identity on the whole thing being a hoax. I have a (ex) friend convinced that billions of people died of heart failure specifically due to the vaccine and the whole thing was covered up, and his evidence is basically that he believes the virus wasn’t real and the vaccine was some kind of government plan to murder everyone. What can you say to that? He will just keep doubling down forever at this point.
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- seiferteric 3y agoI really wonder if we will find these symptoms are caused by other viruses as well. Possibly candidate for chronic fatigue syndrome?
- aantix 3y agoI think we’re in our infancy about determining root cause of most of our ailments. Your comment reminded me of this recent write up. Adenoviruses: Causing Weight Gain and Obesity https://www.geneticlifehacks.com/weight-loss-genetics-obesity-virus-adenovirus/ https://www.geneticlifehacks.com/weight-loss-genetics-obesit...
- user568439 3y agoOne hypothesis is that long covid is caused by reactivated Epstein Barr virus or other herpes family virus. It hasn’t been confirmed but it seems clear that the initial Covid infection has great impact to the immune system and triggers all sort of collateral effects.
- tasty_freeze 3y agoThe title is a lot more exciting than what is actually being claimed. They say that malfunctioning mitochondria are to blame ... but there is no insight into why the mitochondria are malfunctioning. My wife, a formerly energetic, outgoing, type A person, has been suffering from ME/CFS for 20 years. Long COVID symptoms are highly similar to ME/CFS problems, and the hope has been that the long-underfunded ME/CFS research would benefit from the research money that has come with COVID. Thus, I felt let down when I read the linked blurb.
- JohnMakin 3y agoIt is exciting. Before this, we could only posit wild guesses as to the physical mechanism behind long COVID (if there was one at all). In the first year or two, scientists even doubted whether it was real at all. When you know the physical mechanism, it allows you to figure out a way to treat it.
- megous 3y agoThe mitochondrial damage idea was around for at least 2 years already, maybe more...
- JohnMakin 3y agoYou know what a hypothesis is right?
- lostindetails 3y agoI remember this being shown last year already... Found the link: https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/sars-cov-2-can-cause-lasting-damage-cells-energy-production https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/sars-co... AFAIK they even attributed the organ failures to the failures in mitocondrial energy production.
- megous 3y agohttps://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-44432-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-44432-3
- progrus 3y agoAm I supposed to believe that these physiological effects have nothing to do with fear of the virus? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447278/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447278/
- alpaca128 3y agoIf it's psychosomatic then why does it only happen with this specific virus and not, say, with chronic illnesses?
- megous 3y agoThere was way more persistent fear-mongering in the media about COVID-19, than anything else in recent years. (Not arguing for the parent idea, just why this illness may be special, from the fear perspective.)
- hirako2000 3y agoMaybe because covid 19 has been accompanied with an avalanche of commenting along with draconian measures that we haven't seen for at least an entire generation.
- alpaca128 3y agoOther illnesses still existed during the lockdowns and various other health conditions have forced people to be as isolated for years in the past. Many people got mental problems like depression but no long covid during the pandemic.
- hirako2000 3y agoI'm not sure why it is so difficult to see the point in my comment. My argument is that the level of fear inducing information surrounding most people on the planet, associated with covid, was nowhere comparable to fear inducing info associated with any disease and their potentially correlated (or not correlated) potential psychological side effects. By saying this I'm not claiming that long covid is caused by a psychological side effect of a/ having been infected and b/ the information and fear induced state most people fell into and/or c/ other complex compounded side affects of the measures put in place to fight the pandemic: loss of income, job, sense of safety, isolation and containment driving our minds pretty sick I'm saying it could be hence finding correlation between covid infection and longer than short term symptoms described in many independent observation MAY be a red herring Last, an over simplified illustration: - put, furtively some toxine in food and 1000 consume it. - 800, let's say. get sick then recover entirely in the short term. - put, some toxin in food, followed by massive information campaigns, hammering everyone day in and out of the presence of a toxin in food, then lock everyone up, have 200 lose their job, lose contact with their closed ones, etc etc - 200, let's say, global knowledge some food was contaminated didn't help an ounce to reduce their consumption, get sick. - 20, let's say, don't fully recover short term and are left with what we would call "long toxin consumption syndrome", suffering various side effects. And we have research insisting they are seeing correlation between a toxin and long term side effects. Ignoring the social, economical and psychological very potential effect/contribution to these longer term symptoms, I find flagrant lack of hollistic view to phenomenon often lacking scientific researchers.
- zanfr 3y agohttps://www.pasteur.fr/en/press-area/press-documents/covid-19-persistence-sars-cov-2-lungs-and-role-innate-immunity https://www.pasteur.fr/en/press-area/press-documents/covid-1... there is also the small matter of... viral persistence
- hirako2000 3y agoAre we still trying to find some direct physical correlation betwee the symptoms of "long covid" and the virus infection itself? Such symptoms occuring are unsurprising given the psychological effect of the pandemic at its height, its societal and economical effects. Adding to this getting infected and all the fanfare, along with fear mongering we've been subject to via the media and mandates, long covid could alone so easily be caused by the side effects on mental health. I won't dare claiming most disease have psychological root causes, not a medical professional.
- ricardobeat 3y agoThe direct physical correlation is here, right in front of you, and this is your reaction?
- hirako2000 3y agoYes it is my reaction off the post. I challenge it and posted a couple of cousin comments to argumen. What more can I say, happy to be proven wrong, until then
- devjab 3y agoCool. I wonder if they’ll ever discover the reason behind the loss of smell. I lost mine completely for about a year, and I still can’t smell most things. Luckily one of the smells I got back was shit, I say lucky because it’s handy when you have diaper wearing children. In general what I’ve gotten back has been “nasty” smells, I can also smell things like vomit or rotten food. But “good” smells are still completely gone. I can’t smell flowers, I can’t smell candy and so on. It never really affected me, as I apparently cared a lot less about smells than many other people, but it is a little frightening to lose something because of a disease. I’m happy it was the only side effect I got, I’d obviously rather have had none, but I’d frankly be comforted by scientists knowing more about it.
- michael_j_x 3y agoHave you tried smell training (basically you sniff 3-4 different types of essential oils daily). My girlfriend lost her smell due to covid for a year or so, and got it back about a month after starting smell training
- effingwewt 3y agoI mean we smell with olfactory nerves. Are you saying they can be 'trained' so-to-speak? (Looked it up- sure enough [1]) I've never heard of such a thing but if so I'm glad there's something to at least try. I don't personally know anyone who still hasn't regained their sense of smell, but for some it was a year or more before it returned fully. I do know 2 people with 'long covid' who are just super low energy (not a severe case). Im just excited it's all being looked into now as opposed to being blown off or labeled misinformation. [1] https://www.uab.edu/reporter/patient-care/advances/item/10005-smell-training-is-brain-training-parosmia-success-and-five-other-insights-from-a-new-uab-clinic https://www.uab.edu/reporter/patient-care/advances/item/1000...
- francisofascii 3y agoInteresting. It is like "rehab" for smelling.
- radicalbyte 3y agoAn interesting fact: this research was paid for by crowd funding because the Ministry of Health refused to fund it. The Netherlands is also unique in Europe as the only country which does not even try to treat this condition. If you get ME/CFS you are, quite literally, left to die here. Unless someone in your network looks after you.
- j4yav 3y agoPresumably it will be very expensive for taxpayers if it’s proven, so they are incentivized to deny it.
- klyrs 3y agoA friend is going through the ME/CFS "journey" in Canada right now. Apparently, to get disability for CFS, one needs to first apply for disability, which will be rejected. Then, one needs to be able to afford a lawyer to sue the government, which ultimately gets CFS recognized on a case-by-case basis to be debilitating. There are apparently a couple of clinics who specialize in CFS, but they're nearly impossible to access.
- buzzert 3y agoHas anybody died from ME/CFS?
- radicalbyte 3y agoThere are regular stories in the paper about people suffering from ME/CFS choosing to end their own lives. They're usually really young (20s). So yes.
- funnym0nk3y 3y agoSomehow I think of epigenetic processes. That COVID had an interaction with the way genes for mitochondria are transcribed. I also heard somewhere that mitochondrial dysfunction is related to psychiatric diseases, IIRC bipolar disorder or depression. Although that mechanism seems different as antidepressants and mood stabilizers don't make a dent long COVID.
- francisofascii 3y agoI don't think "tiredness" is a good word for the title. The type of symptoms experienced as post-exertional malaise is not really the same being sleepy.
- timbit42 3y agoWhen I had an ulcer and was losing blood and therefore iron, I described it to my doctor as not being tired but weak and lacking stamina. Would those be better descriptions?
- LastCovidWave 3y agoStop. Getting. Infected. Do MORE to stop the spread. COVID is still spreading, disabling, killing. We're almost into year 5 of the pandemic. It's not good for yourself, your family, or your community.
- reify 3y agoAs with any of this research into long covid, it feels deceptive to me. Where is the clarity and consice exacting standards that we are supposed to be in awe of in the scientific community Why is there no mention of whether or not the test subjects had been vaccinated. How do we know that the vaccine did not cause the same symptoms? Surely, only then, could we, I mean I, put this thinking to bed and move on. For balance and clarity I would like to see the same research done on those who have had the vaccine. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38865876 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38865876 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-44432-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-44432-3
- thenerdhead 3y agoYour comment seems a bit cynical or agenda based, but there are already many groups looking into this. i.e. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.11.09.23298266v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.11.09.23298266v... It isn't these researchers job to distinguish every phenotype of long covid as there are other groups trying to figure that out. When those definitions are clearer, I'm sure more upcoming literature will distinguish that. But for now, the current definition are symptom/observational based as we have no biomarker or means to distinguish post-vaccination / infection based long covid yet.
- Krssst 3y ago> How do we know that the vaccine did not cause the same symptoms? Because they started after COVID and not vaccination? Edit: will add https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/vaccination-dramatically-lowers-long-covid-risk/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/vaccination-drama... Vaccination actually reduces the risk.
- croes 3y agoHow many vaccinated people without Corona infection have Long-Covid?
- thenerdhead 3y agoI'm sorry HN, but you continue to downplay long covid when there is evidence like this for a biological pathology right in front of you. Please stop saying it is psychosomatic. Please stop saying only unfit people get it. People stop saying it is caused only by the vaccine. All of these things do nothing helpful. The science will continue to push through these opinions regardless. Why can't the discussion be focused on the actual finding here which is that we have a much clearer model of what is causing PEM / exercise intolerance in symptomatic long covid patients versus asymptomatic controls via amyloid deposits, mitochondria dysfunction, and muscle structure changes.