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I see many comments wondering why the original authors do not reveal their synthesis process. The reason is simple. They work for a private company. Not a univ

I see many comments wondering why the original authors do not reveal their synthesis process. The reason is simple. They work for a private company. Not a university. Not a public lab. They do not reveal the process for the same reason than openAI does not reveal its process. It is because they are sitting on a quadrillion dollars opportunity and they want to grab it. Similarly as OpenAI, many initiatives are trying to make an open source alternative so they have a risk of not profiting from their extraordinary invention.

inglor_cz 3y ago
They revealed quite a lot, but the process seems to be unreliable and frankly unready for publishing. If I understand correctly, one of their colleagues forced their hand by dumping the first preprint on Arxiv without consent of the rest of the team.
sgt101 3y ago
I understood that they have disclosed the process, and are actively advising some of the groups to support replication. However, they acknowledge that the process is difficult to get right and claim that they have had to run it many times to get the results that they are claiming. I don't have any clue about materials science, but I can imagine why this would be the case.
bhouston 3y ago
The lab has a patent though which a lows for disclosure while also profiting from it. Thus I am not totally convinced of your claims.
- hungryforcodes 3y ago
  Wait, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't patents only valid in the country they are filed in? So to be able to enforce a patent, you'd need to have filed in the US, Europe and China(?). Also patents take a couple of years to get accepted...
  - rwmj 3y ago
    Filing in juridictions worldwide is a routine process when you apply for an important patent. Any respectable patent lawyer should be able to deal with it.
    - hungryforcodes 3y ago
      But you have to choose to do it and there is an additional cost, if I am not mistaken. When our startup filed our patents in the US market, we chose not to do the same in Europe...
      - HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
        Sure, and most large corporations with worldwide influence do it automatically. The last action one of my previous employers took was to send me payments for a patent I'm named on when they filed it in the EU. I had already quit, but it was easier to just send me the check than to cancel it :-)
        hungryforcodes 3y ago
        Good point about that! Obviously there are alot of big players like that. However I heard this was a small lab, so I guess we don't know yet what their patenting power is.
- RhodesianHunter 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Filligree 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - bhouston 3y ago
    This is likely just one member of a family of related compounds that exhibit the similar properties. I am unsure how broad the patent is, but I suspect there will be a race to find other members of this family of related compounds. Some may be easier/cheaper to synthesize or have more stability/longevity. Some members of the family may even have larger rangers where they exhibit SC.
- mort96 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - jjallen 3y ago
    People would still make it and just say that they came up with a different way. it is not so easy to prove what someone else is doing behind closed doors.
  - Retric 3y ago
    20 years isn’t that long. The point of patents is to quickly get secrets out into the public while still incentivizing people to make them known. In this case this tiny company doesn’t have the resources to optimize production and has failed for years. They might eventually receive outside funding and figure it out, but they could also fail without releasing their secrets as has happened a few times.
    - mort96 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - Retric 3y ago
        Many ways of getting around patents, and if they can’t companies still need to sell the stuff to profit here. So the world would get room temperature superconductors if it works. 20 years really isn’t that long and more importantly it doesn’t prevent doing research or building assembly lines or customers designing systems to use the stuff. Nobody could start building assembly lines today, so the difference isn’t even close to the full 20 years here. If LK-99 pains out they might profit from it for a decade or so while still actually manufacturing the stuff. But, the best case is companies perfecting their process and taking orders so they can start shipping on day 1 after it expires.
    - dkqmduems 3y ago
      By all means, close your eyes.
    - 3y ago
- codethief 3y ago
  AFAIU, the patent is limited to South Korea.
  - bhouston 3y ago
    That is insane and would be a major error if true.
    - GuB-42 3y ago
      As far as I know, there is no such thing as an international patent. What is called an international patent is just a standardized application so that only one national patent office has to examine it. If it is accepted, other national offices will grant the patent much more easily since the hard work has already been done. And here, there is an international application, so what I think is that there is already a patent in Korea, but it is still pending for other countries.
dagi3d 3y ago
If that'd be the case, why publish the paper at all? Just fill as many patents as possible (assuming this would be helpful) and send the technology
- SunghoYahng 3y ago
  The publication of the paper on LK99 was an accident.
- DougBTX 3y ago
  Rumour is that the first paper was from a disgruntled ex employee.
  - teratron27 3y ago
    The rumours of a disgruntled ex employee where, in fact the rumours of a disgruntled ex employee /s
codeulike 3y ago
But they did reveal their synthesis process, they just didn't explain it very well and there seems to be some random chance involved.
dagi3d 3y ago
Then why to publish a paper at all?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
codethief 3y ago
> I see many comments wondering why the original authors do not reveal their synthesis process. The reason is simple. Yes, but the reason is a different one: It's that they're busy writing / publishing a journal-grade paper and so they have postponed helping out other labs with reproduction efforts to the time after that. (Source: Hyun-Tak Kim said this in some interview.)
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

inglor_cz 3y ago

They revealed quite a lot, but the process seems to be unreliable and frankly unready for publishing. If I understand correctly, one of their colleagues forced their hand by dumping the first preprint on Arxiv without consent of the rest of the team.

sgt101 3y ago

I understood that they have disclosed the process, and are actively advising some of the groups to support replication. However, they acknowledge that the process is difficult to get right and claim that they have had to run it many times to get the results that they are claiming. I don't have any clue about materials science, but I can imagine why this would be the case.

bhouston 3y ago

The lab has a patent though which a lows for disclosure while also profiting from it. Thus I am not totally convinced of your claims.

hungryforcodes 3y ago
Wait, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't patents only valid in the country they are filed in? So to be able to enforce a patent, you'd need to have filed in the US, Europe and China(?). Also patents take a couple of years to get accepted...
- rwmj 3y ago
  Filing in juridictions worldwide is a routine process when you apply for an important patent. Any respectable patent lawyer should be able to deal with it.
  - hungryforcodes 3y ago
    But you have to choose to do it and there is an additional cost, if I am not mistaken. When our startup filed our patents in the US market, we chose not to do the same in Europe...
    - HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
      Sure, and most large corporations with worldwide influence do it automatically. The last action one of my previous employers took was to send me payments for a patent I'm named on when they filed it in the EU. I had already quit, but it was easier to just send me the check than to cancel it :-)
      - hungryforcodes 3y ago
        Good point about that! Obviously there are alot of big players like that. However I heard this was a small lab, so I guess we don't know yet what their patenting power is.
RhodesianHunter 3y ago
[flagged]
- Filligree 3y ago
  [flagged]
- bhouston 3y ago
  This is likely just one member of a family of related compounds that exhibit the similar properties. I am unsure how broad the patent is, but I suspect there will be a race to find other members of this family of related compounds. Some may be easier/cheaper to synthesize or have more stability/longevity. Some members of the family may even have larger rangers where they exhibit SC.
mort96 3y ago
[flagged]
- jjallen 3y ago
  People would still make it and just say that they came up with a different way. it is not so easy to prove what someone else is doing behind closed doors.
- Retric 3y ago
  20 years isn’t that long. The point of patents is to quickly get secrets out into the public while still incentivizing people to make them known. In this case this tiny company doesn’t have the resources to optimize production and has failed for years. They might eventually receive outside funding and figure it out, but they could also fail without releasing their secrets as has happened a few times.
  - mort96 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - Retric 3y ago
      Many ways of getting around patents, and if they can’t companies still need to sell the stuff to profit here. So the world would get room temperature superconductors if it works. 20 years really isn’t that long and more importantly it doesn’t prevent doing research or building assembly lines or customers designing systems to use the stuff. Nobody could start building assembly lines today, so the difference isn’t even close to the full 20 years here. If LK-99 pains out they might profit from it for a decade or so while still actually manufacturing the stuff. But, the best case is companies perfecting their process and taking orders so they can start shipping on day 1 after it expires.
  - dkqmduems 3y ago
    By all means, close your eyes.
  - 3y ago
codethief 3y ago
AFAIU, the patent is limited to South Korea.
- bhouston 3y ago
  That is insane and would be a major error if true.
  - GuB-42 3y ago
    As far as I know, there is no such thing as an international patent. What is called an international patent is just a standardized application so that only one national patent office has to examine it. If it is accepted, other national offices will grant the patent much more easily since the hard work has already been done. And here, there is an international application, so what I think is that there is already a patent in Korea, but it is still pending for other countries.

dagi3d 3y ago

If that'd be the case, why publish the paper at all? Just fill as many patents as possible (assuming this would be helpful) and send the technology

SunghoYahng 3y ago
The publication of the paper on LK99 was an accident.
DougBTX 3y ago
Rumour is that the first paper was from a disgruntled ex employee.
- teratron27 3y ago
  The rumours of a disgruntled ex employee where, in fact the rumours of a disgruntled ex employee /s

codeulike 3y ago

But they did reveal their synthesis process, they just didn't explain it very well and there seems to be some random chance involved.

dagi3d 3y ago

Then why to publish a paper at all?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

codethief 3y ago

> I see many comments wondering why the original authors do not reveal their synthesis process. The reason is simple. Yes, but the reason is a different one: It's that they're busy writing / publishing a journal-grade paper and so they have postponed helping out other labs with reproduction efforts to the time after that. (Source: Hyun-Tak Kim said this in some interview.)

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]