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Same thing happens with the gas stove threads. I can’t believe that actual people are that invested in burning hydrocarbons.
by aintgonnatakeit 3y ago
Same thing happens with the gas stove threads. I can’t believe that actual people are that invested in burning hydrocarbons.
- shlant 3y ago[flagged]
- api 3y agoIt's sublimated class resentment. People resent things that are perceived as coming down upon them from a coastal rich Ivy League educated elite that is perceived as holding them in contempt. It all just sounds like rich people in private jets flying around telling them to use less energy to save the planet. There is of course too much inequality, but it's not because of EVs or phasing out gas stoves.
- praxulus 3y agoMost Americans already have electric stoves, and its disproportionately higher income people who still cook with gas. I know this is all based more on vibes than facts though.
- jtbayly 3y ago“perceived as holding them in contempt”? They have been told explicitly in prime time TV that they are held in contempt. It’s not an issue of perception on this front.
- rnk 3y agoIf you want to, you can find coastal elites that dislike anything, even say electric stoves. So what, why do people have all these grievances because of a sense that someone somewhere doesn't like their choices? I'm from the south, I'm positive people there don't like some of my my life choices, I don't go around feeling mad about it. Blaming coastal elites just seems like an excuse to ignore evidence of problematic choices - yet that view also probably doesn't help.
- sangnoir 3y agoIt's a persecution complex. That's how how get members of a majority religion absurdly claiming they are "being persecuted" when reminded that other religions exist.
- sangnoir 3y ago"We can't even say 'Merry Christmas ' anymore" is not persecution. Especially when it's other Christians who popularized "Happy Holidays" as they felt Christmas was being overly commercialized.
- pfdietz 3y agoThey understand that the contempt is merited. It only makes them more angry.
- jtbayly 3y agoThank you for proving my point. The contempt is real, not perceived.
- pfdietz 3y agoThis contempt is the flip side of the freedoms granted by the constitution. The government is not allowed to enforce certain behaviors. That social control is left to the public itself. The bizarrely irrational behavior from the red states doesn't even make sense in its own terms. If this doesn't merit contempt, nothing does.
- gdy 3y agoCivil war any time soon?
- Robotbeat 3y agoThat’s ironic because gas stoves are actually only the majority in California and places around New York, ie literally the coastal elite.
- grogenaut 3y agothat's a bold claim cotton, care to back it up with some actual data? I've lived in several places across the country, they seemed to all have gas an eletric in a mix.
- Robotbeat 3y agoSure: https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/29082/most-common-type-of-stove-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/29082/most-common-type-of...
- grogenaut 3y agoThank you and interesting. I lived in St. Louis, there was a lot of natural gas. But its next to illinois which is over 80% so wonderi f there's a % in stl not anywhere else.
- Robotbeat 3y agoIn that chart, gas stoves are only 51-70% even in Illinois. The 89% label you’re seeing is percent of electric stoves in nearby state of Tennessee.
- devonkim 3y agoKnow of someone that paid money to have his seatbelt systems become non-functional basically. Basically yes - they hate being told what to do and will rebel harder. So maybe for these folks we should have a campaign to use even more fossil fuels because there’s so many of them and they disproportionately cause social issues to begin with (the man is directly responsible for many, many ruined lives with his toxic personality, including his own children).
- ericmay 3y agoI bet some of it also like, ok you’re banning gas stoves that I like cooking on but everybody owning a Ford F-850 and private jets are still cool (from an environmental perspective)? Seems like a spending a few bucks to save a few pennys kind of scenario. The health argument is fair but seems like it shouldn’t be a mandatory requirement so much as a safety warning (based on my current understanding). The fact that we are even talking about it I guess served the original goal which was to distract from other, larger problems and discussions.
- wolfram74 3y agoThis could be interpreted as saying unless you fix everything at once, any incremental change should be seen as disingenuous and merely a distraction. Would you like to rephrase?
- pclmulqdq 3y agoI'm not the OP but I share this attitude. The argument is that it is hypocritical to heat your 50-room house using hydrocarbons and fly around in a private jet while telling other people to cut their CO2 usage. If you aren't willing to sacrifice for your cause, why should other people sacrifice anything for it?
- uoaei 3y agoThis is actually a well-studied effect in psychology. It's called social loafing: if someone sees another person violating some rule, they are much less likely to feel obligated to follow that same rule. Rules can be unspoken or written down, the effect is basically the same.
- bcrosby95 3y agoAre you saying everyone who thinks we need to sacrifice for climate change owns a 50 room house and flies around in a private jet?
- pclmulqdq 3y ago
- hsjqllzlfkf 3y ago[dead]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- hyperbovine 3y agoFor serious chefs, gas ranges remain far superior to their electric counterparts. I’ll be the first in line to buy an induction cooktop that performs as well as a high end gas range, but we’re not there yet.
- adgjlsfhk1 3y agowhat aspect of performance are they missing?
- wffurr 3y agoTwo big use cases: 1) Wok cooking, can’t use a round bottomed wok easily or create “wok hei”. Though you can also do it with a blowtorch: https://www.seriouseats.com/hei-now-youre-a-wok-star-a-fiery-hack-for-stir-frying-at-home https://www.seriouseats.com/hei-now-youre-a-wok-star-a-fiery... 2) Causing childhood asthma. Gotta employ all those healthcare workers somehow…
- Spunkie 3y agoRounded induction cooktops exist for woks anyways so it feels like its basically all FUD in that other thread.
- jjulius 3y agoYou cited wok hei as an aspect of performance that induction stoves don't have, but it's hardly an argument in favor of gas stoves. The article you link is basically about a tool that makes up for what common home gas stoves can't even provide. Previous Serious Eats articles about it even cited the lack of performance from gas stoves and recommended modifying one with a Wok Mon, but even then the results weren't perfect. Edit: For some reason I feel the need to clarify that this isn't a comment in support of, or against, gas stoves. I just like cooking and am aware of how hard it is to achieve quality wok hei at home.
- kibwen 3y agoChina is the world's largest adopter of induction cooktops. Wok cooking isn't a problem. You can even buy induction cooktops specifically shaped for woks. Can we please retire this silly talking point now?
- CyberDildonics 3y agoGas stoves and plastic straws are distractions, they don't matter either way.
- CydeWeys 3y agoGas stoves matter as far as indoor air quality and giving people asthma/allergies goes.
- CyberDildonics 3y agoDo you have a source for gas stoves giving people allergies?
- JackMorgan 3y agoPerhaps the parent misspoke, but here are several for asthma https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10473289.1992.10467018 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10473289.1992.10... https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/42/6/1724/737113 https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/42/6/1724/737113 https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/20/1/75 https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/20/1/75
- kibwen 3y agoGas stoves need to go away because getting rid of gas infrastructure in the long term will be a huge win, but the gas industry spends heavily on propaganda to convince people otherwise: https://youtube.com/watch?v=hX2aZUav-54 https://youtube.com/watch?v=hX2aZUav-54
- CyberDildonics 3y agoIf gas infrastructure is the problem, why focus on gas stoves and not gas water heaters and furnaces?
- throwaway5959 3y agoWhy not all three? Just stop using gas altogether. I pass enough of it myself, thanks. Edit: why am I being downvoted? Is it not a legitimate question to ask why not go all the way with converting to electric when appliances exist for all three use cases? Do my farts stink too bad?
- simoncion 3y ago> I can’t believe that actual people are that invested in burning hydrocarbons. Yeah, it's weird, right? Why _are_ people so invested in burning natgas and coal and other hydrocarbons for large-scale power generation when a plethora of proven near-zero-emissions alternatives exist? From a climate-change perspective, banning natgas cookstoves is a few pennies saved on like a thousand dollar expenditure. It's similar to the performative "charging for plastic takeaway bags" and "not bringing out table water" nonsense that California likes to do from time to time... it's way easier than making a real dent in the underlying problem, it inconveniences a ton of people (so they know you're doing something), and because "something" has been done, enough of those people don't bother finding out about and loudly and continually agitating for making a real dent in the underlying problem.
- kibwen 3y agoForget burning, even pumping gas to residences is itself a big source of emissions, because of how leaky the pipes are. Between two to seven percent of all gas put into the system is lost directly to the atmosphere, and it's a very potent greenhouse gas. One way or the other, it needs to go away. It's not performative, it's necessary for achieving long-term emissions goals, and it's low-hanging fruit.
- simoncion 3y ago> One way or the other, it needs to go away. Sure, agreed. > It's not performative... Right now it very much is because, as you say: > ...it's low-hanging fruit. As I said: > ...banning natgas cookstoves is a few pennies saved on like a thousand dollar expenditure. and > [Low-impact, high-visibility stuff like that is done because] it's way easier than making a real dent in the underlying problem If you'll pardon the mixed metaphors: When it comes to environmental stuff, a lot of the time, the low-hanging fruit isn't worth picking because the high-hanging fruit is the thing that's the immediate wildfire hazard.
- rhaway84773 3y agoSetting aside the validity of your claim that it’s just a “few Pennie’s on a thousand dollar expenditure (which I strongly disagree with…banning natural gas hookups would be worth it even if climate change wasn’t a problem). Your argument basically boils down to “I’m in debt and need to start spending thousands of dollars less. Cutting out this completely unnecessary expenditure will only save me a few dollars so I shouldn’t cut out this completely unnecessary expense because it won’t save me all the thousands I need to save”.
- BeFlatXIII 3y agoThe gas stove bans are idiotic and petty to defend based on environmentalist principles. The amount of gas burned by those stoves makes roughly zero impact compared with all the other hydrocarbons we burn.
- megaman821 3y agoThe ban of gas connections and by extension gas water heaters, gas furnaces and gas stoves is being reframed to be just gas stoves. So yes, if you cherry-pick the lowest impact item out of the list of gas appliances, the impact is low.
- comte7092 3y agoExactly this. Gas stoves are the flashpoint, because at the end of the day, people generally don’t think about what type of energy their heating comes from. The gas stove is the deciding factor that determines whether or not a gas line gets hooked up to a home or not.
- oblio 3y agoI think stoves are close to a loss leader to get gas lines for gas furnaces.
- Tagbert 3y agoMost people decide on a heating source based on price, not on the stove they want. In the US, in most areas, gas is cheaper to heat a house than electricity is. The may shift as heat pumps become more popular, but historically it has been the case.
- fiftyfifty 3y agoI'm not defending the ban on gas stoves, but a much better reason to ban them is their impact on indoor air quality. Burning natural gas indoors emits all kinds of nasty stuff like carbon monoxide, nitric oxides, formaldehyde...stuff linked to all kinds of diseases from asthma to cancer.
- 3y ago
- oceanplexian 3y agoThey put out less BTUs (9k vs 15k-25k from a high end gas burner) and you can’t cook certain types of cuisines like a stir fry, getting a good sear on steaks, etc. As someone who went from Gas to Electric it really is a massive downgrade.
- comte7092 3y ago> They put out less BTUs (9k vs 15k-25k from a high end gas burner) How much of that makes it into the pan, and how much is waste heat?
- oceanplexian 3y agoThe reason gas is superior is due to heat recovery time. Recovery time is the time it takes to reach temperature after adding food to a pan. Gas is superior to all forms of electric in recovery time. There simply is /more energy/ in a cubic foot of gas compared to what a home electric circuit can deliver in the same time frame. It’s science, plain and simple. The practical effect is food spends less time steaming, so for example, a stir fry doesn’t come out soggy and unappetizing.
- rootusrootus 3y agoInduction kicks the crap out of gas for energy delivered to pan. It's not even close.
- comte7092 3y agoI have an induction wok, it cost a couple hundred dollars on Amazon, heats up instantly and goes up to very high temps. I do not have the problem you are describing. > Gas is superior to all forms of electric in recovery time. This is really going to be dependent on which stoves we are comparing, along with the type of pan being used. > There simply is /more energy/ in a cubic foot of gas compared to what a home electric circuit can deliver in the same time frame. It’s science, plain and simple. Science as I alluded to in my previous comment, would account for waste heat. Which is where a significant amount of the energy of a gas stove goes.
- grogenaut 3y agoI'm not hugely invested but I do prefer cooking on gas. I've had element stoves, they suck. I then had gas, it's great. I stayed in an Airbnb for a month and a friend's condo for a week with induction, it was better than radiant but worse than gas to me. Also the power goes out at my house about 2x a year when we have windstorms. The stove still works, induction doesn't. So I can still cook and make coffee. My other option would be to use my grill in that situation. I like having backups. It's not some conspiracy with me, I just didn't like it as much. There are dozens of us. I also ran an experiment a few years back with some particulate sensors. I noticed when measuring during wild fire smoke the particulates went way up when I cooked bacon. So I did it again on a hot plate not gas. Same thing. The bacon grease and cooking itself was giving off a ton of particulates. To me the lesson was maybe cook outdoors. Or figure out how to plumb a vent through an upstairs living space attic and roof to vent outside. I've also been hesitant on electric cars. My friend has an original roadster that I've driven several times. It's great even tho I can't even get out of it because of my size. However I go out to ski and road trip a lot. I constantly am evaluating if an ev is ready for that use, it's getting closer but not yet. The ski hills I go to are near range for a EV and the charging spots are all taken as are all the spots so that's a risk. Camping and backpacking is more iffy. There was charging at Yellowstone in a few spots but I doubt they ran it to mowich lake yet. But the kicker is I just have several old cars (08) that are in great shape and I hate all the shit on new cars when I rent them. There's a few features that are great like the anti-tbone feature, and some backup cameras. But he'll they used to beep whenever someone was near you, or they freak out when your 5 feet from a hedge when parking moving .2 mph and slam on the brakes, or the infotainment system is slow, crashes, and has no buttons. So I'll just hold while those bugs are worked out. I think these cars may all get to 20 years easily.
- eric-hu 3y agoThat’s really interesting that the particulates were comparable from induction and gas cooking. If you did any more comparisons and recorded them anywhere, I’d be curious to read more about them. I’m guessing this might be a temperature dependent issue. I enjoy using a cast iron to brown meats, but I really dial it back in homes without true range hoods (e.g. they vent back indoors). If I go for maybe 25% browning, I can massively reduce the smoke. It feels a shame to not do a steak to perfection, but when I’ll prefer that to venting the whole place for an hour.
- wkat4242 3y agoThe amount of gas we burn for cooking is really minimal compared to other uses which are much more easily replaced. And yes most people here use it for cooking and hot water only. I spend like a tenner on gas each month.
- dang 3y ago"Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html