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They have stopped prosecuting repeat offenders, and reduced the size of the police force People are slowly realizing that it was a mistake, but its gonna take

• rainy59 3y ago
  If startups were really worried about avoiding crime, they would be in high rent Mill Valley Sausalito etc In startup world, you tolerate the crime to get cheap office space Salesforce went downtown for the cheap rent. Otherwise it was always foggy chilly and a commute mess. Amazon's original offices in Seattle were near some really spooky stuff too. In startup grind you do what you do
• KptMarchewa 3y ago
  >They have stopped prosecuting repeat offenders, and reduced the size of the police force Ok, but apparently it was shit even before that, so this can't be full answer.
  • waihtis 3y ago
    The uncomfortable answer which no one wants to speak about is that an overtly liberal policy doesn't translate to the best possible society, or necessarily even an acceptable one, regardless of how well off the city or state is. Compare San Francisco to somewhere like Singapore, and ask yourself where would you rather live - and if the freedoms available in SF are worth the trade offs. BTW I'm not taking a stance here as I live in neither location.
    • Hamuko 3y ago
      Is San Francisco more liberal than major European cities?
      • luckylion 3y ago
        Hamburg just started enforcing that pan-handlers mustn't sit down. They haven't outlawed it, but they're pretty actively trying to not make it a common occurrence in the city center. Tent cities, completely open drug consumption, ignoring theft < 1000€, ignoring car break-ins etc would absolutely not fly here. You might get some of that on a local level in a very progressive district of Berlin, but not in other major German cities. So at least for Germany: yeah, I think it is.
        • kristofferR 3y ago
          That's not liberalism at all, that's just dumbness. You seem to label everything you dislike liberal. It's dumb to jail homeless and mentally ill people, but it's just as dumb to just stop jailing them without providing them the help they need. The most liberal cities in the world don't have big homeless and crime problems because help and housing is provided.
          • luckylion 3y ago
            > That's not liberalism at all, that's just dumbness. I don't know, I'm not the judge of that, but it sounds a bit like a very mobile goal post. Usually, "liberal policies" are removing or weakening penalties and enforcement. A liberal drug policy will decriminalize drug use. liberal = tolerant, so liberal policies tolerate a lot more things. And SF is in many regards more liberal than European cities. Whether it's your preferred kind of liberal politics, or whether it's combined with other effective policies etc, is a different question.
            • marvin 3y ago
              Would it be considered a liberal policy to tolerate someone walking into a store, conspicuously stealing ~$500 worth of goods, yelling, punching, and throwing furniture at anyone who confronts them and then returning the next day to do it again? To me that looks like a society that has completely abdicated its responsibility of using legal force to protect the rights and safety of its inhabitants, rather than just an honest disagreement on what variation in values and lifestyles that are accepted.
      • blackshaw 3y ago
        Another comment in this thread said: > Since I moved [to SF], I have seen people break into cars (numerous times), fill suitcases with products from Target and Walgreens and leave without paying, casually smoke meth in a crowded bus, empty their bladder and bowels in the middle of the sidewalk, etc. all of this brazenly and in broad daylight. I'm not aware of any major European city where this kind of behaviour is tolerated, much less common.
      • tazjin 3y ago
        I can confidently say that pretty much nothing I've heard about SF (haven't spent much time there myself other than passing through) would be tolerated in Moscow. It's unthinkable. The worst thing you run into here would be a drunk guy at night or something like that. Moscow isn't exactly an example of a liberal-leaning city though :) As for smaller cities in Europe like London or Berlin, they're also still reasonably safe (I didn't like night buses in London but that's about it) and the crazy stuff is mostly contained. I guess a huge part of this is that most countries over here at least have something resembling a working social system.
      • hattmall 3y ago
        I don't know that it really falls under the normal definition of liberal. But it's certainly the epitome of American neo-liberal ideals. This isn't really the same as liberalism in Europe (yet). The bulk of the general problems in SF and the US can be correlated to the number of mental health beds available. In Europe most countries have a rate of around 120 per 100k. In Asia it's upwards of 300. In the US. It's around 12. Liberalism in the US heavily resists the usage of asylums and actually helping people in general. In Europe that's not really the case.
    • jacquesm 3y ago
      You can have 'overtly liberal policy' without becoming like San Francisco, and you can have conservative policy without becoming Singapore. Those are outliers.
    • bsder 3y ago
      Executing people for illegal drugs will almost certainly improve the situation in SF quite dramatically for those left alive afterward. Thankfully, the US and California are still Democracies for the moment. Anyone who tries to hold up Singapore as a beacon of "good governance" simply isn't working in reality ...
      • waihtis 3y ago
        We will only know this in a 100 years or so.
    • astrange 3y ago
      The SFPD just refuse to do work because they know refusal will cause people to blame it on "overtly liberal policy" and give them even more funding to do no work. (In the 70s they also once bombed the mayor's house when they didn't like him.)
      • censor_me 3y ago
        [flagged]
        • lern_too_spel 3y ago
          The police aren't defunded in San Francisco. They have consistently gotten budget increases. It's just that instead of hiring more, they spend it on overtime pay (1.5X normal rate) for people driving around and doing nothing. https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/sfpd-pay-millions-more-for-officers-to-work-fewer-hours-why/ https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/sfpd-pay-millions-mo...
          • alach11 3y ago
            It's crazy how effective the narrative is that the police were "defunded" when you're in here dropping facts showing the opposite.
            • dpkirchner 3y ago
              Yup. It's crucial to flag the bad-faith rabble-rousers to ensure HN doesn't become as bad as, say, reddit.
              • censor_me 3y ago
                [dead]
            • zdragnar 3y ago
              The article doesn't really support the post, though: " SF’s police department has 335 fewer full-duty police officers than it did in 2017, with a total of 1,537 officers as of January, according to Supervisor Matt Dorsey, a former police communications staffer. A police staffing analysis indicated that the department needs upward of 2,100 sworn officers to satisfy city demands. As fewer officers are available to patrol streets or respond to incidents, the department says it has been forced to ask staff to work longer hours or pick up extra shifts. " When the force is at 75% capacity, officers are overworked and deprioritizing non-emergency responses. It's a recipe for more George Floyds, not less.
    • nicolas_t 3y ago
      I'd use Japan (Tokyo), Taiwan (Tai Pei) or Hong Kong (prior to 2014 and the CCP becoming increasingly authoritarian) as examples instead of Singapore. Singapore is extreme and I think other cities that are less extreme are actually nicer to live in (having either lived or spent time in all 4)
      • re-thc 3y ago
        There's too much focus here (the discussion) on the law itself. The cities you mention have a different culture. It's ingrained into you as a kid. It's "less liberal" in the sense that the wider society doesn't accept these values. The media, your family and friends and other parts of the environment are a lot more effective than the law.
        • nicolas_t 3y ago
          That's a good point, I think group pressure is definitely a factor there. Just as an example, it would be inconceivable for someone who knows he's sick not to wear a mask when going to work because of the social pressure and opprobrium around those actions. On the other hand, I also know that in general in any of those countries, the consequences for something like shoplifting are a lot stronger than they would be in most western countries.
      • nradov 3y ago
        In Taiwan the homeless rate is very low because having a homeless relative is shameful. Affluent people do whatever it takes to ensure that no one in their extended family is out on the street in order to save face, even if they don't particularly like those relatives. No such culture of family responsibility exists in the US. As an island nation, Taiwan also has a somewhat easier time preventing narcotics smuggling. Whereas the mainland Chinese Communist Party has covertly targeted the USA for "Opium War 2" by tacitly allowing the smuggling of fentanyl precursor chemicals to Mexican drug cartels.
        • otreblatercero 3y ago
          What's there on the other side(the US)? Mexico does not have a fentanyl problem here, maybe there are some American cartels over there in the US which are not being put on the spotlight because... who knows.
    • deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    • re-thc 3y ago
      > Compare San Francisco to somewhere like Singapore, and ask yourself where would you rather live Singapore
    • amrocha 3y ago
      Singapore has social housing and minimal unemployment so maybe once SF gets there we can have this conversation.
      • intalentive 3y ago
        I think they have a different drug policy too.
        • amrocha 3y ago
          Nobody is turning to drugs because they're left destitute on the streets in Singapore
    • MisterBastahrd 3y ago
      SF's problem isn't liberal policies. It's the lack of them. The homeless problem is a prime example. Gentrification, NIMBYism, and a lack of affordable housing aren't "liberal."
      • ideamotor 3y ago
        A lot of selfish libertarians in Austin think they are liberal, too. Hmm.
    • wing-_-nuts 3y ago
      An overtly liberal policy doesn't mean you don't enforce the law. Look at major cities across the country. Most all of them are blue, even in deep red states, yet SF and LA are the only cities I know of with homelessness and crime being this bad. This isn't 'liberal policies', this is corruption and ineptitude.
      • all2 3y ago
        > An overtly liberal policy doesn't mean you don't enforce the law. But hasn't the hue and cry been "defund the police"? We heard it as far back as the mostly peaceful protests that ravaged major US cities across the US in 2020-21. And it's been the chant of mostly left-leaning politicians and organizations.
        • wing-_-nuts 3y ago
          'defund the police' has literally only been uttered seriously within the blm movement. Even the most progressive of politicians knew it was dead on arrival.
          • telotortium 3y ago
            Sure, they may have known that "defund the police" couldn't last, but during the summer of 2020, progressive politicians took it seriously enough in public (much of it due to BLM). We got CHAZ in Seattle, Antifa trying to burn down federal buildings and police stations, and progressive DAs (e.g., Chesa Boudin) at the time decided to severely reduce the penalties that they would pursue for even serious crime. A few cities even got around to attempting to redirect funding from police to social workers and the like. Progressive politicians continued to take "defund the police" seriously until the fall, when it was clear that the issue had turned an easy election for Biden into a close election that he was at significant risk of losing. All of this indicated to criminals that law enforcement would be much lighter, which is why crime skyrocketed during that time and has continued to stay elevated until this day
          • augment001 3y ago
            [dead]
  • zug_zug 3y ago
    As a liberal who lived there for a while -- I honestly think this is one of the few cases where liberals are less correct. I think initially it started as "being poor is not a crime" with the good thought that you can't arrest people for not having a house. I think this escalated toward a lax attitude toward drugs and many "petty" crimes (e.g. public urination, stealing a case of beer). The interesting thing was that when I lived there sometimes I'd ask or joke about it (bicycle theft was a huge problem, car windows being smashed, etc). People would mostly pretend they didn't see it and have no idea what to say to my joke for fear that somebody around them had a very strong opinion and they would offend. Also, I remember once my improv class was chatting outside the theater and a homeless man asked for a cigarette and then started berating my classmates when they ignored him, and they actually felt bad. I know their sympathy came from a good place. Many of these people are damaged mentally and jail will only get them out of your face. But in my opinion something more proactive needed to be done. I don't even think it needs to be traditional jail. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if some of these people would be happier/healthier working outside in the sun getting some exercise instead of being in a cell. I think that's not boolean enough for most people though.
    • intalentive 3y ago
      They should be relocated to work camps in the wilderness. Lots of empty space on federal land in Nevada, Utah, etc.
      • l3mure 3y ago
        Arbeit macht frei after all
    • dpkirchner 3y ago
      There's a huge faction of the country that wants to limit funding for all government services. Hell, they are so cheap that they want those imprisoned to pay for their own prison time! Jail alternatives are more expensive in the short term, and that is all that matters to this faction.
    • hattmall 3y ago
  • zamalek 3y ago
    Coming from an ex-Seattle resident, which has much the same issue. The full, uncomfortable answer, is people who wear liberalism/equality as a fashion accessory - instead of really caring about it. The "don't criminalize homelessness" line is towed to the degree of mandating homelessness. There is a culture of blocking solutions, while offering no alternative solutions. This makes it almost impossible for the homeless who want to be uplifted (by far the majority) to make progress. Even something as simple as having a mailing address and a shower can make a huge difference (especially for finding employment and government aid), but such progress is blocked by faux-liberalism.
• ryan_lane 3y ago
  Neither of these things are true, and SF ousted the DA that was apparently not prosecuting offenders, and things haven't seemed to change?
  • inferiorhuman 3y ago
    Chesa Boudin, the previous DA, was ousted in large part due to his prosecuting rogue police officers. His progressive policies and interest in restorative justice made him an extra easy target. The issues of crime and homelessness in San Francisco predate Boudin, and while current DA has a much more cozy relationship with the police (she disbanded the group investigating/prosecuting police misconduct) the crime trajectory hasn't changed.
    • kenneth 3y ago
      The DA should focus on prosecuting the criminals, not the police. I don't think the police are the ones ruining SF at the moment.
      • theGnuMe 3y ago
        But what if the real criminals are the cops…
        • mansion7 3y ago
          The cops stabbed him while yelling "This is MAGA country!"
      • inferiorhuman 3y ago
        And what happens when the cops are the criminals?
      • AlexandrB 3y ago
        Some criminals happen to be police officers. And they have a lot more power to harm people than the average street criminal. So I disagree. Criminality from police officers also broadly undermines faith in the rule of law. The entire summer of BLM protests can be viewed as an expression of that.