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There really needs to be a distinction between an actual recall (my Model S had one to change the latch on the frunk) and this type of "recall" that is nothing

by jlv2 4y ago

There really needs to be a distinction between an actual recall (my Model S had one to change the latch on the frunk) and this type of "recall" that is nothing more than an OTA software update.

buildbot 4y ago
Why? It involves a safety system! That needs to be tracked publicly and updated! Nothing more than an OTA - does not mean much when everything is fly by wire and a bug could mean your car does not stop accelerating or something.
- diebeforei485 4y ago
  Recall implies something being returned. This should be called a mandatory software patch, or something like that. The problem is Tesla owners repeatedly see "recall" to mean "software update", so this might lead to a lot of confusion if a physical recall is actually required in the future.
  - asdff 4y ago
    Recall should just mean affected vehicles must have the fix. What component of the vehicle is affected or how it is supposed to be fixed should be irrelevant, something is defective and the vehicles should probably not be used until that's sorted.
  - thomaskcr 4y ago
    I like that we're arguing over the word "recall" being an issue when the system it applies to is called "full self driving". I think calling a level 2 driver assistance system "full self driving" is a much bigger inaccuracy.
    - futuroptimist 4y ago
      To play devil's advocate, it's only a misleading label when the word "Beta" is omitted.
      - insanitybit 4y ago
        Not really. If someone says "Full self driving beta" I'm thinking "The goal is full self driving, the current approach should deliver full self driving, beta means that it requires some tweaks and testing".
        Natsu 4y ago
        > I'm thinking "The goal is full self driving, the current approach should deliver full self driving, beta means that it requires some tweaks and testing". And that "bugs" involve accidents.
        KMnO4 4y ago
        Reminds me of an old joke about Ford vs Microsoft. We seem to have come full circle. Abridged version: > At a computer expo, Bill Gates compared the computer industry with the auto industry and stated, 'If Ford had kept up with technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25 cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon.' > In response to Bill's comments, Ford issued a press release stating: > “Sure, but would you want to drive a car that for no reason whatsoever would crash twice a day?” https://www.chevyhhr.net/forums/lounge-10/microsoft-vs-ford-hilarious-42159/ https://www.chevyhhr.net/forums/lounge-10/microsoft-vs-ford-...
        yazzku 4y ago
        Nobody outside of tech understands it this way. "Full Self-Driving Beta" is a marketing stunt that borders on fraud. These cars can't drive themselves for shit, they're not even in beta.
        insanitybit 4y ago
        You've misunderstood me. I agree with you.
        yazzku 4y ago
        Oh, ok, yes I did.
    - abudabi123 4y ago
      Rebrand the "full self driving" marketing to "driver assist optimist".
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Software recalls are nothing new. This particular use of the word “recall” refers to the legal process used by regulators to mandate a fix to a product.
  - QuercusMax 4y ago
    I work in the medical device space, and we will often have "recalls", which usually result in a software patch. Recall != return.
    - diebeforei485 4y ago
      Are these delivered directly to the device and installed overnight automatically (like an iPhone iOS update) or do they have to be hooked up to a computer to install the software update?
      - joshuahaglund 4y ago
        Recall is the word we use when a defect was found and must be repaired or retrofit. The actual process of repair could involve customer action or not. Teslas are basically digitally tethered to the dealer, so they can be "recalled" anytime (without your approval, fwiw), but it doesn't make the word not apply.
      - buffington 4y ago
        If Tesla replaced the actual computer that runs the software that they're recalling, would you consider that a recall? What if there was no actual physical fault with the computer, but it just had firmware flashed to a chip that couldn't be reflashed? I'm looking at a piece of mail right now that's an official recall notice for a different make/model of car I own. The issue? Improperly adjusted steering components. The company is offering to make the correct adjustments for free. Nothing is being replaced. Whether the recall is to replace a poorly designed physical component, or to make an adjustment, or to apply a software update doesn't make a difference to regulators. A recall is a legal process that's designed to encourage manufacturers to fix safety issues while also limiting their liability. Companies avoid recalls if they can because it's costly, time consuming, and isn't good PR. But it's worth it if the issue is bad enough that it risks a class action lawsuit, or individual lawsuits, and most desirable when someone like the US government is demanding a recall or risk legal consequences. When a company issues a recall, they make their best effort to notify consumers of the issue, provide with clear descriptions of how consumers can have the issue fixed, and make it clear that it will be paid for by the manufacturer. In return, the manufacturer is granted legal protections that drop their risk of being sued to nearly zero.
  - sixQuarks 4y ago
    I agree. It’s like crying wolf, eventually you start ignoring it
    - connicpu 4y ago
      Laypeople have an incorrect perception of what a recall actually means, especially when it comes to vehicles. The most important effect that comes along with an official vehicle recall is that the manufacturer has to fix the issue for you for free, or otherwise compensate you in some way for reduced functionality you may have paid for.
      - mcguire 4y ago
        Well, that and the manufacturer has to notify owners of the recall, which is (or should be) tracked by the vehicle's VIN. https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls
    - pengaru 4y ago
      > It’s like crying wolf, eventually you start ignoring it The problem here lies in having a manufacturer shipping an unfinished product then relying on an endless stream of recalls to finish developing your vehicle. These are supposed to be exceptional events. If they've become so frequent you're ignoring them, don't shoot the messenger.
    - mrguyorama 4y ago
      Recalls happen in other product spaces all the time, and they often have "fixes" that say "stop using our product and throw it away". That's still a recall. The word "recall" in relation to this regulation is simply a term for "something is broken in a way that a merchant should not have sold"
  - sentientslug 4y ago
    This is most likely a legislative issue with NHTSA, I don't think they have a mechanism by which they can enforce a software update since the concept didn't exist when recalls were first implemented.
    - reilly3000 4y ago
      This is the correct answer. The question is, how do we get better at regulating reality faster?
      - connicpu 4y ago
        Electing congresspeople who actually stay on top of the expert consensus in various regulated fields is the only way the frameworks themselves can be improved.
      - tsgagnon 4y ago
        This is the correct answer. The question is, how do we get better at regulating reality faster? I don't think "Use words that put a more positive spin for Tesla PR" is something regulators should be working faster on.
        jjk166 4y ago
        Inaccuracy is inaccuracy no matter in which direction. If an outdated law made it easier for Tesla PR to spin something in a positive light, would you consider that an issue?
        outworlder 4y ago
        There's no inaccuracy here. You are arguing about an implementation detail.
        jjk166 4y ago
        Arguing about an implementation detail which creates inaccuracies, yes.
  - duncan-donuts 4y ago
    Surely a hardware recall would specifically tell you to go to a dealer, right? I’m not sure it’s really confusing. The specific thing here is that these are mandatory things that are tracked by vehicle.
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    My Honda had 2 recalls on it recently: one was a software update and the other was over the fact that a few of the cables on the audio system were slightly too short. This sounds like the same thing other than the fact that I had to pop over to the dealership to do them. Even with the cable replacement, in and out in an hour with a nice lounge to sit in.
    - diebeforei485 4y ago
      If the software update has to be done physically at a dealer location, that's a recall. The scenario in this article is an over-the-air update.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - pclmulqdq 4y ago
        I wasn't told about either of these recalls, though. I went in because the audio was clicking, and they told me they had 2 recalls out on my car, including for the audio issue, and that it was a quick fix. Normally, it happens with an oil change.
      - hunter2_ 4y ago
        I just looked it up. The relevant definition of recall is to request returning a product. If it's possible to buy a software license online and then return it online after deciding you no longer want it (i.e., a non-physical return), then it stands to reason that Tesla can request that you return the defective software OTA and receive replacement software OTA, and that would be a recall. The fact that you are forced into returning the defective software by virtue of not having the opportunity to block the return request is a fairly minor detail.
      - cardiffspaceman 4y ago
        While we're talking about semantics, the auto industry seems to have a thing called "Technical service bulletin" which is a piece of actionable knowledge. If it applies to you, you act on it. You would probably have to go to the shop to get the TSB considered and applied. I don't think it has any regulatory weight, except as an input to deciding if a recall is a good idea.
  - BoorishBears 4y ago
    It's hilarious watching Tesla owners and Elon complain about the wording when it's Tesla's fault this is a recall. If Tesla had willingly walked this back, it'd be a software update, or a beta delay, or whatever they wanted to call it. What laypeople don't realize is that this is being called a recall because the NHTSA pushed them into it: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V085-3451.PDF https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V085-3451.PDF - FSD has been a cartoonish display for the better part of a year now, it wasn't until last month that the NHTSA actually pushed on them to do a recall, and from there they "disagreed with the NHTSA but submitted a recall"... which is code for "submitted the recall NHTSA forced on them to submit" Elon knows better, but he knows he can weaponize people's lack of familiarity with this space and inspire outrage at the "big bad overreaching government"
  - zitterbewegung 4y ago
    We should probably go beyond the verbiage of recall but right now since it is removing a feature I think that recall is appropriate. A better verbiage might be safety reversion .
    - buffington 4y ago
      The use of the word "recall" isn't because someone just felt like using it. It's an official legal process, followed to limit the manufacturer's liability. Whether it's a "good" word or "bad" word is irrelevant. It describes a very rigid and official legal process.
      - brewdad 4y ago
        Exactly. I had a "recall" at one point where the manufacturer had a typo on a label in the engine compartment. The fix entailed receiving a new sticker in the mail and applying it over the old one. To this day, I can look up my vehicle on the NTSB site and see that that sticker was delivered to me. If I had chosen not to actually apply it, the dealer would have been expected to do so the next time my car was in for service.
    - caf 4y ago
      I don't think this is removing a feature, the recall notices says: The remedy OTA software update will improve how FSD Beta negotiates certain driving maneuvers during the conditions described above, whereas a software release without the remedy does not contain the improvements.
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    "Recalls" almost never involve being returned. There's a recall out on my car's water pump (Thanks a lot VW) and no part of it involves sending my car back, or even interacting with VW or a dealer. It's just something I'm supposed to keep in mind over its life and various maintenance in the shop. Other cars get "recalls" all the time that amount to updating the software in the ECU or TCU. Tesla is simply being treated like everyone else. Hell, even in food, a "recall" usually means "throw it away" not return it.
  - clnq 4y ago
    It seems to me that calling it a "recall" emphasises the severity of the problem, which might make it easier to argue that a lot is being done for customer safety to the interested authorities. But I don't think Tesla wants this to be seen more than an OTA update from the perspective of their customers (at least those who ignore Tesla news). I had a VW car that was "recalled" shortly following the emissions scandal. The dealership asked me to come in for a free software update related to emissions. So you can say it's a "recall" to the lawmakers but call it a "free software update" to the user.
    - dmix 4y ago
      The industry needs to come up with a new related term like "Software Recall" Recalling the hardware is a drastically more difficult request to impose on customers and financially/logistically for the car maker. That's a disporportate response just to highlight importance of an OTA update.
      - dingle_thunk 4y ago
        Recall is just the wrong word for what this is.
        gxc33 4y ago
        'full self driving' is an even more incorrect term, then, if you want to be pedantic. if the car mfg takes zero liability/accountability, then it is zero self-driving. you can, in fact, 'recall' software. this is semantically accurate description of what is happening.
        Sparyjerry 4y ago
        It's a full self driving 'beta' though, it's literally in the name that it isn't final and doesn't have the bugs worked out. You also have to opt in to it.
        gxc33 4y ago
  - now__what 4y ago
    In auto recalls, "recall" more generally implies something being repaired than returned, IME
    - buffington 4y ago
      It implies neither. A recall is a legal process only. Whether the recall repairs, replaces, adjusts something doesn't matter. Whether a fix is applied as software, or labor, or replacement parts doesn't matter. Whether a customer needs to do something or not doesn't matter. A recall simply says: as a manufacturer, working with government authorities, while taking specific prescribed steps to communicate and correct an issue at the cost of the manufacturer, the manufacturer is then immune from lawsuits that could arise were they to ignore the issue.
    - tshaddox 4y ago
      Yeah, but the reason why they used the word "recall" is that "recall" was already a word that means to officially demand that something (or someone) be returned to a previous location. Of course, before over the air software updates, essentially anything on an automobile that needed to be replaced/repaired/modified would need to be returned to a dealer/mechanic to do so. So now it sounds a little weird to some people to refer to an over the air software update as a recall.
  - eecc 4y ago
    Well in computing the term “Security Update” is in use, why not call this a “Safety Update”.
  - eternityforest 4y ago
    The software isn't returned but it is destroyed and replaced. In a world where the behavior of the things we own is driven by software, it's pretty much just the same as if you recalled and replaced faulty gas tanks.
  - cyanydeez 4y ago
    The software is being returned. Your argument seems to be about protecting Tesla's reputation
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - nerdix 4y ago
    Samsung just recently had a recall on some recent model top loading washing machines due to fire hazard. The fix? A software update. https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2023/Samsung-Recalls-Top-Load-Washing-Machines-Due-to-Fire-Hazard-Software-Repair-Available https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2023/Samsung-Recalls-Top-Load-W...
    - heavyset_go 4y ago
      It's seems that it's only not a recall when Tesla does it, because Tesla invented software updates.
  - jjav 4y ago
    > Recall implies something being returned. That's where the word came from, that's true. But a legal framework has built up around the concept over the decades which isn't dependent on you having to drive the car to the dealer, all of which still applies, so the word is still used.
    - diebeforei485 4y ago
      Over-the-air software updates haven't really been a thing until Tesla (previous cars that required software updates still required visiting a dealer or service center) so what we have here is an outdated legal framework.
      - jjav 4y ago
        It's not outdated. It's simply that the word recall in the context of cars has a specific legal meaning which isn't entirely the same as the conversational english usage of the same word. A defect that is subject to a recall, for example, is tracked as part of the car history. When considering buying a used car, you can see whether that repair has been made yet or not. The means of how that repair is delivered is inconsequential.
- tsgagnon 4y ago
  Why? It involves a safety system! That needs to be tracked publicly and updated! Nothing more than an OTA - does not mean much when everything is fly by wire and a bug could mean your car does not stop accelerating or something. True, but by announcing things in this fashion it is making Tesla look bad. Regulations really need to be updated so that car makers can hide this type of problem from customers as easily as possible. Especially when it comes to Tesla, regulators really need to bend over backwards to prevent articles from being written that could be interpreted in a negative way. Or are people concerned about the word "recall" for a different reason?
  - bischofs 4y ago
    Regulators dont care about the perception of a recall, they care about the safety of the consumers and more importantly the general public who have not signed up for Teslas beta program.
  - ddulaney 4y ago
    > so that car makers can hide this type of problem from customers as easily as possible What. No! At an absolute minimum, I want to be aware of any changes to the thing in my life most likely to kill me. Maybe we could use a better term like "Software Fuckup Remediation" or "Holy Shit How Did We Not Get The Brakes Right".
    - buffington 4y ago
      If there were a word for "we would do anything we could possibly do, legally or otherwise, and more if we knew how, to avoid having to spend a second or a penny trying to fix the thing we knew was broken when we sold it to you, but the government is looking at us funny and we might get sued if we don't, so we'll grudgingly do it,", it'd probably be "recall."
  - freejazz 4y ago
    > it is making Tesla look bad Maybe Tesla should stop doing things that result in it receiving poor publicity? just a thought
- JaggerJo 4y ago
  I’m leasing a Honda E and software wise literally nothing except apple car play works/ is usable. Some things are absolutely safety relevant. But no one cares.
- Analemma_ 4y ago
  To me "recall" clearly implies that I have to drive it to the dealership and let them fix or install something. "Mandatory software update" might be a better term.
- rco8786 4y ago
  Because nothing is being "recalled". It should absolutely be tracked and publicized. But it's fundamentally different than "this car is fundamentally broken and you have to take it back to the manufacturer"
  - jjav 4y ago
    > Because nothing is being "recalled". "Recall" with cars is a legal term that means something specific. > But it's fundamentally different than "this car is fundamentally broken and you have to take it back to the manufacturer" That's not a criteria for a recall. A recall can be for a small thing completely unrelated to driving safety. Someone else mentioned having a recall to replace a sticker. My most recent recall was to replace the trunk lifts. "Recall" for a car just means a specific procedure now has to be followed, tracked and reported. It says nothing about the safety criticality of the fix.
- idopmstuff 4y ago
  The suggestion wasn't that it should not be tracked, just that it shouldn't be called a recall, since they're not actually recalling your car to have something fixed.
- foobarbecue 4y ago
  Should be a CVE.
- albertop 4y ago
  You do not call security updates that you get to your computer a recall of your computer, do you?
  - nerdix 4y ago
    If I don't apply the update, would my computer potentially kill me or cause me great bodily harm? If yes then I think it should be called a recall.
yabones 4y ago
It's nice that they can quickly fix it without people needing to drive to a service center, but you can understand that people would be concerned by the "may cause crashes" part?
- jillesvangurp 4y ago
  It's a bit of a semantic play here. But there's a difference between it might happen and things actually happening. Tesla has had several safety related "recalls" in the last few years. All of which were fixed without much hassle via an over the air software update. And of course their record on safety kind of speaks for itself. Not a whole lot of bad stuff happening with Teslas relative to other vehicles that are facing issues related to structural integrity of the car. Like wheels might fall off with some Toyota's. Or spontaneous combustion of batteries because of dodgy suppliers (happened to BMW and a few others). Which is of course much harder to fix with a software update and would require an actual recall to get expensive repairs done. The headline of that many cars being "recalled" is of course nice clickbait. Much better than "cars to receive minor software update that fixes an issue that isn't actually that much of an issue in the real world so far". One is outrage-ism fueled advertising and the other is a bit of a non event. It's like your laptop receiving some security related update. Happens a lot. Is that a recall of your laptop or just an annoying unscheduled coffee break?
belter 4y ago
One can kill people the other not. Guess which one. >> "...The FSD Beta system may cause crashes by allowing the affected vehicles to: “Act unsafe around intersections, such as traveling straight through an intersection while in a turn-only lane, entering a stop sign-controlled intersection without coming to a complete stop, or proceeding into an intersection during a steady yellow traffic signal without due caution,” according to the notice on the website of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration..."
- xdavidliu 4y ago
  > One can kill people the other not. No, that's not correct. Whether it can kill people or not is orthogonal to whether it's a true physical recall of the car or a software update.
  - cptaj 4y ago
    You're right. A physical recall doesn't necessarily imply death. This should be labeled "holy shit need to fix this now, people could die"
  - myko 4y ago
    > whether it's a true physical recall I hope by participating in this thread you're aware by now but just to be clear there is no "physical" recall necessary. The recall is about documentation, customer awareness, and fixing the problem. "Physical recall" is meaningless and unimportant, it's not what "recall" means at all.
    - chc 4y ago
      And I hope you see that you've demonstrated why "recall" is a poorly chosen word for that, since the word's normal definitions have nothing to do with "documentation," "customer awareness" or "fixing the problem."
  - indigodaddy 4y ago
    I think that it’s more about using the most appropriate known terminology in order to try to get the most people to do the needful. “recall” sounds more urgent/dire than “software update”, and will likely encourage many more people to take action vs using “software update” or some less familiar terminology. The word “recall” in terms of autos has built up a lot of history/prior art in people’s minds as something to really pay attention to. I have no idea, but perhaps that is why they are going with this known terminology.
paxys 4y ago
The majority of "actual recalls" is you taking your car to the dealership and them plugging into the diagnostic port and running one line of code. So this one is the same, just that Tesla is able to do it over the air.
- InCityDreams 4y ago
  >just that Tesla is able to do it over the air. ...and that's one reason why I would never purchase a Tesla.
  - brokenmachine 4y ago
    "Full self driving beta" is one of my reasons.
  - Zanneth 4y ago
    You’d prefer to make an appointment at a dealership and have to physically drive it in?
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  Don't forget how many recalls are "Next time you replace this part, it will be replaced with a new version that doesn't have the defect" or how many recalls are "A tech will look at the part and then do nothing because your part is fine" or "A tech will weld the part that is currently on your truck" or "Be aware this part may fail ahead of schedule and if it does it will suck, but you don't technically have to replace it right now so we don't have to cover the cost"
  - earleybird 4y ago
    My all time favourite[0] I recall getting a recall notice from GM that included "until repaired, remove key from keychain". [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch_recalls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
csours 4y ago
"Recall" means that the Manufacturer MUST follow rules related to record keeping and customer engagement. If you have a recall, please make sure you get it completed. It is someone's job to call and write to you until you do.
- mike_d 4y ago
  Finally the correct answer in a wave of "well ackusally" comments. A recall means exactly what it means. The manufacturer is responsible for a fix. If for whatever reason they can't push an OTA update to your car, Tesla is still responsible for sending you a postcard in the mail and calling you every 6 months telling you to bring it in for service until they have reasonable evidence the car is no longer on the road.
Veserv 4y ago
I used to be on the other side of this, but now I agree with you. The official meaning of a recall is providing a record of a defect, informing the public that the product is defective, and making the manufacturer financially liable for either remediating the defect or providing a refund. However, the colloquial definition of a “recall” now means a product must be physically returned. To better represent the nature of a “recall” they should instead call it something like “notice of defect”. In the case of safety critical problems like here they should use a term like “notice of life-endangering defect” to properly inform the consumers that the defect is actively harmful instead of merely being a failure to perform as advertised. tl;dr They should change the terminology from “recall” to “Notice of Life-Endangering Defect”
mcguire 4y ago
Why? It still has to be tracked and follows the same NHTSB regulations. https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/14218-mvsdefectsandrecalls_041619-v2-tag.pdf https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/14218-...
dylan604 4y ago
Was the recall a voluntary recall by the company or something the company was told to do by a regulator? To me, recall means much more than just having to have the company replace something. It means they have to do it at their expense. So in this case, it's not as bad for Tesla's bottom line if it is just an OTA update. A recall is something that the car industry is used to doing whenever they have to fix a mistake. I would not be surprised if the industry doesn't have ways of writing those expenses off in taxes or something, so need to be able to specifically itemize the recall work.
- londons_explore 4y ago
  Nearly all recalls are voluntary. But the NHTSA advises the company that if they don't do a voluntary recall, the NHTSA will do a compulsory recall. A voluntary recall is easier and cheaper for all involved.
- Animats 4y ago
  > Was the recall a voluntary recall by the company or something the company was told to do by a regulator? "Voluntary recall" in this case means that Tesla did not choose to take the hard route where there's a court order for a mandatory recall. Few manufacturers fight that, because customers then get letters from the Government telling them their product is defective and that it should be returned for repair or replacement. Somebody in the swallowable magnet toy business fought this all the way years ago.[1] They lost. It's still a problem. [1] https://www.cpsc.gov/Safety-Education/Safety-Education-Centers/Magnets https://www.cpsc.gov/Safety-Education/Safety-Education-Cente...
- mike_d 4y ago
  Almost all car recalls are voluntary because once it becomes a mandatory recall the government can require them to provide a buyback option to the vehicle owner.
  - dylan604 4y ago
    oh, that would be amazeballs to have Tesla reimburse the cost of the FSD purchase. i never drank the Tesla kool-aid, so it would be good karma to see them get dinged for the snake-oil they've sold as FSD
yread 4y ago
It's funny that it's a bit like "autopilot". The word fits exactly here but laic public doesn't usually understand it to mean this.
baby 4y ago
Oh damn, that title is definitely a lie then
sacrosancty 4y ago
[dead]
jedberg 4y ago
My Honda has had recalls where I had to bring it in for a software update. The only difference here is that Tesla has infrastructure to do that remotely.
esalman 4y ago
I owned three Toyotas for last 7 years. I had multiple recalls but except one of them every other one was software update. OTA updates are cool but they more complexity to the car. I like my cars to be simple and reliable instead.
ScottEvtuch 4y ago
I think this is splitting hairs. Would it still be a recall if a mechanic drives to your house to fix a mechanical problem?
hpen 4y ago
This. I read the headline and thought it meant all those cars had to go to the dealer
cyanydeez 4y ago
Eh. People should be informed of dangerous behaviors of public products regardless of how they're fixed.
xyzelement 4y ago
I agree with you and I think the responses you are getting aren't helpful. Sure this is technically a recall but: Customers aren't dealing with inconvenience of having to bring their vehicle in / not having it for a while. And Tesla is not incurring the cost of physically handling and fixing 360k cars. So while it's technically a recall, the impact on the consumer and manufacturer is very different than what the word brings to mind.

by jlv2 4y ago

There really needs to be a distinction between an actual recall (my Model S had one to change the latch on the frunk) and this type of "recall" that is nothing more than an OTA software update.

buildbot 4y ago

Why? It involves a safety system! That needs to be tracked publicly and updated! Nothing more than an OTA - does not mean much when everything is fly by wire and a bug could mean your car does not stop accelerating or something.

diebeforei485 4y ago
Recall implies something being returned. This should be called a mandatory software patch, or something like that. The problem is Tesla owners repeatedly see "recall" to mean "software update", so this might lead to a lot of confusion if a physical recall is actually required in the future.
- asdff 4y ago
  Recall should just mean affected vehicles must have the fix. What component of the vehicle is affected or how it is supposed to be fixed should be irrelevant, something is defective and the vehicles should probably not be used until that's sorted.
- thomaskcr 4y ago
  I like that we're arguing over the word "recall" being an issue when the system it applies to is called "full self driving". I think calling a level 2 driver assistance system "full self driving" is a much bigger inaccuracy.
  - futuroptimist 4y ago
    To play devil's advocate, it's only a misleading label when the word "Beta" is omitted.
    - insanitybit 4y ago
      Not really. If someone says "Full self driving beta" I'm thinking "The goal is full self driving, the current approach should deliver full self driving, beta means that it requires some tweaks and testing".
      - Natsu 4y ago
        > I'm thinking "The goal is full self driving, the current approach should deliver full self driving, beta means that it requires some tweaks and testing". And that "bugs" involve accidents.
        KMnO4 4y ago
        Reminds me of an old joke about Ford vs Microsoft. We seem to have come full circle. Abridged version: > At a computer expo, Bill Gates compared the computer industry with the auto industry and stated, 'If Ford had kept up with technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25 cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon.' > In response to Bill's comments, Ford issued a press release stating: > “Sure, but would you want to drive a car that for no reason whatsoever would crash twice a day?” https://www.chevyhhr.net/forums/lounge-10/microsoft-vs-ford-hilarious-42159/ https://www.chevyhhr.net/forums/lounge-10/microsoft-vs-ford-...
      - yazzku 4y ago
        Nobody outside of tech understands it this way. "Full Self-Driving Beta" is a marketing stunt that borders on fraud. These cars can't drive themselves for shit, they're not even in beta.
        insanitybit 4y ago
        You've misunderstood me. I agree with you.
        yazzku 4y ago
        Oh, ok, yes I did.
  - abudabi123 4y ago
    Rebrand the "full self driving" marketing to "driver assist optimist".
- kube-system 4y ago
  Software recalls are nothing new. This particular use of the word “recall” refers to the legal process used by regulators to mandate a fix to a product.
- QuercusMax 4y ago
  I work in the medical device space, and we will often have "recalls", which usually result in a software patch. Recall != return.
  - diebeforei485 4y ago
    Are these delivered directly to the device and installed overnight automatically (like an iPhone iOS update) or do they have to be hooked up to a computer to install the software update?
    - joshuahaglund 4y ago
      Recall is the word we use when a defect was found and must be repaired or retrofit. The actual process of repair could involve customer action or not. Teslas are basically digitally tethered to the dealer, so they can be "recalled" anytime (without your approval, fwiw), but it doesn't make the word not apply.
    - buffington 4y ago
      If Tesla replaced the actual computer that runs the software that they're recalling, would you consider that a recall? What if there was no actual physical fault with the computer, but it just had firmware flashed to a chip that couldn't be reflashed? I'm looking at a piece of mail right now that's an official recall notice for a different make/model of car I own. The issue? Improperly adjusted steering components. The company is offering to make the correct adjustments for free. Nothing is being replaced. Whether the recall is to replace a poorly designed physical component, or to make an adjustment, or to apply a software update doesn't make a difference to regulators. A recall is a legal process that's designed to encourage manufacturers to fix safety issues while also limiting their liability. Companies avoid recalls if they can because it's costly, time consuming, and isn't good PR. But it's worth it if the issue is bad enough that it risks a class action lawsuit, or individual lawsuits, and most desirable when someone like the US government is demanding a recall or risk legal consequences. When a company issues a recall, they make their best effort to notify consumers of the issue, provide with clear descriptions of how consumers can have the issue fixed, and make it clear that it will be paid for by the manufacturer. In return, the manufacturer is granted legal protections that drop their risk of being sued to nearly zero.
- sixQuarks 4y ago
  I agree. It’s like crying wolf, eventually you start ignoring it
  - connicpu 4y ago
    Laypeople have an incorrect perception of what a recall actually means, especially when it comes to vehicles. The most important effect that comes along with an official vehicle recall is that the manufacturer has to fix the issue for you for free, or otherwise compensate you in some way for reduced functionality you may have paid for.
    - mcguire 4y ago
      Well, that and the manufacturer has to notify owners of the recall, which is (or should be) tracked by the vehicle's VIN. https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls
  - pengaru 4y ago
    > It’s like crying wolf, eventually you start ignoring it The problem here lies in having a manufacturer shipping an unfinished product then relying on an endless stream of recalls to finish developing your vehicle. These are supposed to be exceptional events. If they've become so frequent you're ignoring them, don't shoot the messenger.
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    Recalls happen in other product spaces all the time, and they often have "fixes" that say "stop using our product and throw it away". That's still a recall. The word "recall" in relation to this regulation is simply a term for "something is broken in a way that a merchant should not have sold"
- sentientslug 4y ago
  This is most likely a legislative issue with NHTSA, I don't think they have a mechanism by which they can enforce a software update since the concept didn't exist when recalls were first implemented.
  - reilly3000 4y ago
    This is the correct answer. The question is, how do we get better at regulating reality faster?
    - connicpu 4y ago
      Electing congresspeople who actually stay on top of the expert consensus in various regulated fields is the only way the frameworks themselves can be improved.
    - tsgagnon 4y ago
      This is the correct answer. The question is, how do we get better at regulating reality faster? I don't think "Use words that put a more positive spin for Tesla PR" is something regulators should be working faster on.
      - jjk166 4y ago
        Inaccuracy is inaccuracy no matter in which direction. If an outdated law made it easier for Tesla PR to spin something in a positive light, would you consider that an issue?
        outworlder 4y ago
        There's no inaccuracy here. You are arguing about an implementation detail.
        jjk166 4y ago
        Arguing about an implementation detail which creates inaccuracies, yes.
- duncan-donuts 4y ago
  Surely a hardware recall would specifically tell you to go to a dealer, right? I’m not sure it’s really confusing. The specific thing here is that these are mandatory things that are tracked by vehicle.
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  My Honda had 2 recalls on it recently: one was a software update and the other was over the fact that a few of the cables on the audio system were slightly too short. This sounds like the same thing other than the fact that I had to pop over to the dealership to do them. Even with the cable replacement, in and out in an hour with a nice lounge to sit in.
  - diebeforei485 4y ago
    If the software update has to be done physically at a dealer location, that's a recall. The scenario in this article is an over-the-air update.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - pclmulqdq 4y ago
      I wasn't told about either of these recalls, though. I went in because the audio was clicking, and they told me they had 2 recalls out on my car, including for the audio issue, and that it was a quick fix. Normally, it happens with an oil change.
    - hunter2_ 4y ago
      I just looked it up. The relevant definition of recall is to request returning a product. If it's possible to buy a software license online and then return it online after deciding you no longer want it (i.e., a non-physical return), then it stands to reason that Tesla can request that you return the defective software OTA and receive replacement software OTA, and that would be a recall. The fact that you are forced into returning the defective software by virtue of not having the opportunity to block the return request is a fairly minor detail.
    - cardiffspaceman 4y ago
      While we're talking about semantics, the auto industry seems to have a thing called "Technical service bulletin" which is a piece of actionable knowledge. If it applies to you, you act on it. You would probably have to go to the shop to get the TSB considered and applied. I don't think it has any regulatory weight, except as an input to deciding if a recall is a good idea.
- BoorishBears 4y ago
  It's hilarious watching Tesla owners and Elon complain about the wording when it's Tesla's fault this is a recall. If Tesla had willingly walked this back, it'd be a software update, or a beta delay, or whatever they wanted to call it. What laypeople don't realize is that this is being called a recall because the NHTSA pushed them into it: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V085-3451.PDF https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V085-3451.PDF - FSD has been a cartoonish display for the better part of a year now, it wasn't until last month that the NHTSA actually pushed on them to do a recall, and from there they "disagreed with the NHTSA but submitted a recall"... which is code for "submitted the recall NHTSA forced on them to submit" Elon knows better, but he knows he can weaponize people's lack of familiarity with this space and inspire outrage at the "big bad overreaching government"
- zitterbewegung 4y ago
  We should probably go beyond the verbiage of recall but right now since it is removing a feature I think that recall is appropriate. A better verbiage might be safety reversion .
  - buffington 4y ago
    The use of the word "recall" isn't because someone just felt like using it. It's an official legal process, followed to limit the manufacturer's liability. Whether it's a "good" word or "bad" word is irrelevant. It describes a very rigid and official legal process.
    - brewdad 4y ago
      Exactly. I had a "recall" at one point where the manufacturer had a typo on a label in the engine compartment. The fix entailed receiving a new sticker in the mail and applying it over the old one. To this day, I can look up my vehicle on the NTSB site and see that that sticker was delivered to me. If I had chosen not to actually apply it, the dealer would have been expected to do so the next time my car was in for service.
  - caf 4y ago
    I don't think this is removing a feature, the recall notices says: The remedy OTA software update will improve how FSD Beta negotiates certain driving maneuvers during the conditions described above, whereas a software release without the remedy does not contain the improvements.
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  "Recalls" almost never involve being returned. There's a recall out on my car's water pump (Thanks a lot VW) and no part of it involves sending my car back, or even interacting with VW or a dealer. It's just something I'm supposed to keep in mind over its life and various maintenance in the shop. Other cars get "recalls" all the time that amount to updating the software in the ECU or TCU. Tesla is simply being treated like everyone else. Hell, even in food, a "recall" usually means "throw it away" not return it.
- clnq 4y ago
  It seems to me that calling it a "recall" emphasises the severity of the problem, which might make it easier to argue that a lot is being done for customer safety to the interested authorities. But I don't think Tesla wants this to be seen more than an OTA update from the perspective of their customers (at least those who ignore Tesla news). I had a VW car that was "recalled" shortly following the emissions scandal. The dealership asked me to come in for a free software update related to emissions. So you can say it's a "recall" to the lawmakers but call it a "free software update" to the user.
  - dmix 4y ago
    The industry needs to come up with a new related term like "Software Recall" Recalling the hardware is a drastically more difficult request to impose on customers and financially/logistically for the car maker. That's a disporportate response just to highlight importance of an OTA update.
    - dingle_thunk 4y ago
      Recall is just the wrong word for what this is.
      - gxc33 4y ago
        'full self driving' is an even more incorrect term, then, if you want to be pedantic. if the car mfg takes zero liability/accountability, then it is zero self-driving. you can, in fact, 'recall' software. this is semantically accurate description of what is happening.
        Sparyjerry 4y ago
        It's a full self driving 'beta' though, it's literally in the name that it isn't final and doesn't have the bugs worked out. You also have to opt in to it.
        gxc33 4y ago
- now__what 4y ago
  In auto recalls, "recall" more generally implies something being repaired than returned, IME
  - buffington 4y ago
    It implies neither. A recall is a legal process only. Whether the recall repairs, replaces, adjusts something doesn't matter. Whether a fix is applied as software, or labor, or replacement parts doesn't matter. Whether a customer needs to do something or not doesn't matter. A recall simply says: as a manufacturer, working with government authorities, while taking specific prescribed steps to communicate and correct an issue at the cost of the manufacturer, the manufacturer is then immune from lawsuits that could arise were they to ignore the issue.
  - tshaddox 4y ago
    Yeah, but the reason why they used the word "recall" is that "recall" was already a word that means to officially demand that something (or someone) be returned to a previous location. Of course, before over the air software updates, essentially anything on an automobile that needed to be replaced/repaired/modified would need to be returned to a dealer/mechanic to do so. So now it sounds a little weird to some people to refer to an over the air software update as a recall.
- eecc 4y ago
  Well in computing the term “Security Update” is in use, why not call this a “Safety Update”.
- eternityforest 4y ago
  The software isn't returned but it is destroyed and replaced. In a world where the behavior of the things we own is driven by software, it's pretty much just the same as if you recalled and replaced faulty gas tanks.
- cyanydeez 4y ago
  The software is being returned. Your argument seems to be about protecting Tesla's reputation
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- nerdix 4y ago
  Samsung just recently had a recall on some recent model top loading washing machines due to fire hazard. The fix? A software update. https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2023/Samsung-Recalls-Top-Load-Washing-Machines-Due-to-Fire-Hazard-Software-Repair-Available https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2023/Samsung-Recalls-Top-Load-W...
  - heavyset_go 4y ago
    It's seems that it's only not a recall when Tesla does it, because Tesla invented software updates.
- jjav 4y ago
  > Recall implies something being returned. That's where the word came from, that's true. But a legal framework has built up around the concept over the decades which isn't dependent on you having to drive the car to the dealer, all of which still applies, so the word is still used.
  - diebeforei485 4y ago
    Over-the-air software updates haven't really been a thing until Tesla (previous cars that required software updates still required visiting a dealer or service center) so what we have here is an outdated legal framework.
    - jjav 4y ago
      It's not outdated. It's simply that the word recall in the context of cars has a specific legal meaning which isn't entirely the same as the conversational english usage of the same word. A defect that is subject to a recall, for example, is tracked as part of the car history. When considering buying a used car, you can see whether that repair has been made yet or not. The means of how that repair is delivered is inconsequential.
tsgagnon 4y ago
Why? It involves a safety system! That needs to be tracked publicly and updated! Nothing more than an OTA - does not mean much when everything is fly by wire and a bug could mean your car does not stop accelerating or something. True, but by announcing things in this fashion it is making Tesla look bad. Regulations really need to be updated so that car makers can hide this type of problem from customers as easily as possible. Especially when it comes to Tesla, regulators really need to bend over backwards to prevent articles from being written that could be interpreted in a negative way. Or are people concerned about the word "recall" for a different reason?
- bischofs 4y ago
  Regulators dont care about the perception of a recall, they care about the safety of the consumers and more importantly the general public who have not signed up for Teslas beta program.
- ddulaney 4y ago
  > so that car makers can hide this type of problem from customers as easily as possible What. No! At an absolute minimum, I want to be aware of any changes to the thing in my life most likely to kill me. Maybe we could use a better term like "Software Fuckup Remediation" or "Holy Shit How Did We Not Get The Brakes Right".
  - buffington 4y ago
    If there were a word for "we would do anything we could possibly do, legally or otherwise, and more if we knew how, to avoid having to spend a second or a penny trying to fix the thing we knew was broken when we sold it to you, but the government is looking at us funny and we might get sued if we don't, so we'll grudgingly do it,", it'd probably be "recall."
- freejazz 4y ago
  > it is making Tesla look bad Maybe Tesla should stop doing things that result in it receiving poor publicity? just a thought
JaggerJo 4y ago
I’m leasing a Honda E and software wise literally nothing except apple car play works/ is usable. Some things are absolutely safety relevant. But no one cares.
Analemma_ 4y ago
To me "recall" clearly implies that I have to drive it to the dealership and let them fix or install something. "Mandatory software update" might be a better term.
rco8786 4y ago
Because nothing is being "recalled". It should absolutely be tracked and publicized. But it's fundamentally different than "this car is fundamentally broken and you have to take it back to the manufacturer"
- jjav 4y ago
  > Because nothing is being "recalled". "Recall" with cars is a legal term that means something specific. > But it's fundamentally different than "this car is fundamentally broken and you have to take it back to the manufacturer" That's not a criteria for a recall. A recall can be for a small thing completely unrelated to driving safety. Someone else mentioned having a recall to replace a sticker. My most recent recall was to replace the trunk lifts. "Recall" for a car just means a specific procedure now has to be followed, tracked and reported. It says nothing about the safety criticality of the fix.
idopmstuff 4y ago
The suggestion wasn't that it should not be tracked, just that it shouldn't be called a recall, since they're not actually recalling your car to have something fixed.
foobarbecue 4y ago
Should be a CVE.
albertop 4y ago
You do not call security updates that you get to your computer a recall of your computer, do you?
- nerdix 4y ago
  If I don't apply the update, would my computer potentially kill me or cause me great bodily harm? If yes then I think it should be called a recall.

yabones 4y ago

It's nice that they can quickly fix it without people needing to drive to a service center, but you can understand that people would be concerned by the "may cause crashes" part?

jillesvangurp 4y ago
It's a bit of a semantic play here. But there's a difference between it might happen and things actually happening. Tesla has had several safety related "recalls" in the last few years. All of which were fixed without much hassle via an over the air software update. And of course their record on safety kind of speaks for itself. Not a whole lot of bad stuff happening with Teslas relative to other vehicles that are facing issues related to structural integrity of the car. Like wheels might fall off with some Toyota's. Or spontaneous combustion of batteries because of dodgy suppliers (happened to BMW and a few others). Which is of course much harder to fix with a software update and would require an actual recall to get expensive repairs done. The headline of that many cars being "recalled" is of course nice clickbait. Much better than "cars to receive minor software update that fixes an issue that isn't actually that much of an issue in the real world so far". One is outrage-ism fueled advertising and the other is a bit of a non event. It's like your laptop receiving some security related update. Happens a lot. Is that a recall of your laptop or just an annoying unscheduled coffee break?

belter 4y ago

One can kill people the other not. Guess which one. >> "...The FSD Beta system may cause crashes by allowing the affected vehicles to: “Act unsafe around intersections, such as traveling straight through an intersection while in a turn-only lane, entering a stop sign-controlled intersection without coming to a complete stop, or proceeding into an intersection during a steady yellow traffic signal without due caution,” according to the notice on the website of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration..."

xdavidliu 4y ago
> One can kill people the other not. No, that's not correct. Whether it can kill people or not is orthogonal to whether it's a true physical recall of the car or a software update.
- cptaj 4y ago
  You're right. A physical recall doesn't necessarily imply death. This should be labeled "holy shit need to fix this now, people could die"
- myko 4y ago
  > whether it's a true physical recall I hope by participating in this thread you're aware by now but just to be clear there is no "physical" recall necessary. The recall is about documentation, customer awareness, and fixing the problem. "Physical recall" is meaningless and unimportant, it's not what "recall" means at all.
  - chc 4y ago
    And I hope you see that you've demonstrated why "recall" is a poorly chosen word for that, since the word's normal definitions have nothing to do with "documentation," "customer awareness" or "fixing the problem."
- indigodaddy 4y ago
  I think that it’s more about using the most appropriate known terminology in order to try to get the most people to do the needful. “recall” sounds more urgent/dire than “software update”, and will likely encourage many more people to take action vs using “software update” or some less familiar terminology. The word “recall” in terms of autos has built up a lot of history/prior art in people’s minds as something to really pay attention to. I have no idea, but perhaps that is why they are going with this known terminology.

paxys 4y ago

The majority of "actual recalls" is you taking your car to the dealership and them plugging into the diagnostic port and running one line of code. So this one is the same, just that Tesla is able to do it over the air.

InCityDreams 4y ago
>just that Tesla is able to do it over the air. ...and that's one reason why I would never purchase a Tesla.
- brokenmachine 4y ago
  "Full self driving beta" is one of my reasons.
- Zanneth 4y ago
  You’d prefer to make an appointment at a dealership and have to physically drive it in?
mrguyorama 4y ago
Don't forget how many recalls are "Next time you replace this part, it will be replaced with a new version that doesn't have the defect" or how many recalls are "A tech will look at the part and then do nothing because your part is fine" or "A tech will weld the part that is currently on your truck" or "Be aware this part may fail ahead of schedule and if it does it will suck, but you don't technically have to replace it right now so we don't have to cover the cost"
- earleybird 4y ago
  My all time favourite[0] I recall getting a recall notice from GM that included "until repaired, remove key from keychain". [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch_recalls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

csours 4y ago

"Recall" means that the Manufacturer MUST follow rules related to record keeping and customer engagement. If you have a recall, please make sure you get it completed. It is someone's job to call and write to you until you do.

mike_d 4y ago
Finally the correct answer in a wave of "well ackusally" comments. A recall means exactly what it means. The manufacturer is responsible for a fix. If for whatever reason they can't push an OTA update to your car, Tesla is still responsible for sending you a postcard in the mail and calling you every 6 months telling you to bring it in for service until they have reasonable evidence the car is no longer on the road.

Veserv 4y ago

I used to be on the other side of this, but now I agree with you. The official meaning of a recall is providing a record of a defect, informing the public that the product is defective, and making the manufacturer financially liable for either remediating the defect or providing a refund. However, the colloquial definition of a “recall” now means a product must be physically returned. To better represent the nature of a “recall” they should instead call it something like “notice of defect”. In the case of safety critical problems like here they should use a term like “notice of life-endangering defect” to properly inform the consumers that the defect is actively harmful instead of merely being a failure to perform as advertised. tl;dr They should change the terminology from “recall” to “Notice of Life-Endangering Defect”

mcguire 4y ago

Why? It still has to be tracked and follows the same NHTSB regulations. https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/14218-mvsdefectsandrecalls_041619-v2-tag.pdf https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/14218-...

dylan604 4y ago

Was the recall a voluntary recall by the company or something the company was told to do by a regulator? To me, recall means much more than just having to have the company replace something. It means they have to do it at their expense. So in this case, it's not as bad for Tesla's bottom line if it is just an OTA update. A recall is something that the car industry is used to doing whenever they have to fix a mistake. I would not be surprised if the industry doesn't have ways of writing those expenses off in taxes or something, so need to be able to specifically itemize the recall work.

londons_explore 4y ago
Nearly all recalls are voluntary. But the NHTSA advises the company that if they don't do a voluntary recall, the NHTSA will do a compulsory recall. A voluntary recall is easier and cheaper for all involved.
Animats 4y ago
> Was the recall a voluntary recall by the company or something the company was told to do by a regulator? "Voluntary recall" in this case means that Tesla did not choose to take the hard route where there's a court order for a mandatory recall. Few manufacturers fight that, because customers then get letters from the Government telling them their product is defective and that it should be returned for repair or replacement. Somebody in the swallowable magnet toy business fought this all the way years ago.[1] They lost. It's still a problem. [1] https://www.cpsc.gov/Safety-Education/Safety-Education-Centers/Magnets https://www.cpsc.gov/Safety-Education/Safety-Education-Cente...
mike_d 4y ago
Almost all car recalls are voluntary because once it becomes a mandatory recall the government can require them to provide a buyback option to the vehicle owner.
- dylan604 4y ago
  oh, that would be amazeballs to have Tesla reimburse the cost of the FSD purchase. i never drank the Tesla kool-aid, so it would be good karma to see them get dinged for the snake-oil they've sold as FSD

yread 4y ago

It's funny that it's a bit like "autopilot". The word fits exactly here but laic public doesn't usually understand it to mean this.

baby 4y ago

Oh damn, that title is definitely a lie then

sacrosancty 4y ago

[dead]

jedberg 4y ago

My Honda has had recalls where I had to bring it in for a software update. The only difference here is that Tesla has infrastructure to do that remotely.

esalman 4y ago

I owned three Toyotas for last 7 years. I had multiple recalls but except one of them every other one was software update. OTA updates are cool but they more complexity to the car. I like my cars to be simple and reliable instead.

ScottEvtuch 4y ago

I think this is splitting hairs. Would it still be a recall if a mechanic drives to your house to fix a mechanical problem?

hpen 4y ago

This. I read the headline and thought it meant all those cars had to go to the dealer

cyanydeez 4y ago

Eh. People should be informed of dangerous behaviors of public products regardless of how they're fixed.

xyzelement 4y ago

I agree with you and I think the responses you are getting aren't helpful. Sure this is technically a recall but: Customers aren't dealing with inconvenience of having to bring their vehicle in / not having it for a while. And Tesla is not incurring the cost of physically handling and fixing 360k cars. So while it's technically a recall, the impact on the consumer and manufacturer is very different than what the word brings to mind.