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What's interesting to me is that if we're able to accept the idea that mass social media-induced illness can be developed just by virtue of video watching TikTo

What's interesting to me is that if we're able to accept the idea that mass social media-induced illness can be developed just by virtue of video watching TikTok or YouTube, then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented. This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _learn_ to want to be another gender. But I think there's some interesting parallels to be observed here, and discounting that based on "moral virtue" or "denying hate speech" or whatever i'll be attacked with is just moving the target.

JKCalhoun 4y ago
Tough call since it is also possible a certain number of people have always felt this way but only by others "coming out" do they now feel comfortable expressing themselves as well.
poulpy123 4y ago
Didn't a researcher shown that's it was indeed the case ?
- rippercushions 4y ago
  That would be the "rapid onset gender dysphoria" controversy, which is so politically charged that lay observers (/me waves) will have a very hard time separating science from ideology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid-onset_gender_dysphoria_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid-onset_gender_dysphoria_c...
roody15 4y ago
It reminds me of the old saying “Monkey see .. Monkey do”. An over simplification perhaps but there is no question we “mimic” all the time.
- anenefan 4y ago
  I think similarly. I am wondering how they differentiate this specific extreme behaviour moving "socially," to other subtle behaviours which are copied and mirrored within small tight knit social groups - especially kids / teenagers? I found the 9:1 ratio of girls to boys intriguing, given the same or very similar mechanism might been a huge benefit to females in past ages where they might be married into a strange culture.
agileAlligator 4y ago
brnt 4y ago
Recently read the story of a detransitioner and the statistic that about a third falls of the radar (and due missing their hormones, almost certainly are unhappy about the treatment). Social media are implicated in the spread of these ideas (all ideas), and the detransitioner pleaded for better info from professionals and an end to doctor neutrality for underage trans people. Changed my mind a bit.
- somedude895 4y ago
  Could be part of the Tavistock Center[0] story? The state of affairs around transsexuality is horrifying. Critical discussion is basically not allowed on moral grounds and most people who "study" the topic (eg gender studies), care for said patients (eg gender clinics), etc are the same people who already adhere to that no-criticism-allowed agenda. [0] https://news.sky.com/story/amp/nhs-gender-clinic-the-tavistock-centre-could-face-legal-action-over-alleged-failings-in-care-12670235 https://news.sky.com/story/amp/nhs-gender-clinic-the-tavisto...
- ReactiveJelly 4y ago
  idk I got a stapled packet of info from my provider and the effects are listed on Wikipedia these days for the stuff I'm on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminizing_hormone_therapy#Effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminizing_hormone_therapy#Eff... It's a tradeoff. At least we can all agree that adults have the right to transition under an Informed Consent model. Countries like the UK, without IC, are hellholes for trans medical care. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1eWIshUzr8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1eWIshUzr8
  - brnt 4y ago
    This is in the NL. Yes, they got a pile of folders, but in retrospect they would have wanted psychiatric care, because these issues were not treated and instead channelled into gender disphoria.
- DarkWiiPlayer 4y ago
  Less than 1%. That's the number of people who detransition simply because they didn't feel it was the right thing for them. Of the less than 2% of detransitioners overall, the vast majority names reasons like social pressure, transitioning being too difficult, etc. Dunno what numbers you are talking about, but the ones I know certainly underline gender dysphoria being a very real thing and not some sort of "social contagion", and my personal experience definitely aligns with this as well: I don't know a single trans person who seems to regret transitioning, but a whole number of trans people who are struggling with the constant hate they get, fuelled in part by this sort of rhetoric. And since the article in one of the replies mentioned puberty blockers: They are 1. entirely reversible, 2. routinely prescribed to cis children for other medical reasons and 3. unlike these blockers, puberty is not reversible. Can I change your mind, even if just a little bit? I don't know; but if you really want to change your mind, start looking closely into the "statistics" of the right. Their misrepresentations are often absurdly superficial. It's all a lie, and the parts that aren't, usually aren't that bad.
mnsc 4y ago
Since there is a school of thought that gender to a great extent is socially learned behaviour the idea that you by learning more about gender transgression would "create" a desire that "I would be more comfortable in 'that gender' over there" is not far-fetched although I'm not aware of any research. The issue is mostly by those who pathologize that state of not being comfortable in ones "gender assigned at birth", like saying "...other illnesses such as gender dysphoria" and then wanting to "cure" this dysphoria in other ways than enabling a safe and informed transition. Like for instance banning people talking about their experiences, good and bad, in transitioning.
- DSingularity 4y ago
  How can there ever be an informed transition with something like shifting genders?
  - jackmott42 4y ago
    If you suppose that understanding this well is not possible, that would imply you also do not understand it well, so perhaps you should leave other people alone to do what they will, unless some good reason is revealed not to.
    - DSingularity 4y ago
      Agreed — until it starts to harm people. Some are suggesting that this is creating harm for minors.
  - ReactiveJelly 4y ago
    You can practice presenting differently in safe social situations, that's reversible. (e.g. crossdressing) Trans fem people can remove their facial hair without doing other medical transition steps. The effects of hormone replacement are so slow that you can safely "try them out" for a month or two and not have a huge permanent burden. You talk to people and think about it real hard and sleep on it for years. It looks sudden from the outside because there's such a stigma over saying "Hey I'm thinking about trying on a new gender, do you think it would work?" It's not too different from other body modification like tattoos or vasectomies. You can't fully know for sure, but there is a point where you decide that the risk is worth it, because the potential payoff seems worth it. Then it usually turns out it is. Most "de-transition" cases are people who couldn't afford the monetary cost or social cost of presenting as transgender. It's un-common to transition and then find out you're actually cis.
bognition 4y ago
Counter hypothesis. For the last several decades society put massive pressure on kids to conform to heteronormativity. With these pressures lessening more and more people are feeling empowered to explore their sexuality. Social media is absolutely involved, but we really don't know what the base rate would be in a society devoid of this kind of pressure.
- api 4y ago
  This brings to mind one of my rules about conservative panics: If laws against witchcraft are removed and/or witchcraft is destigmatized and then all the sudden there appears to be an explosion of witches, the explanation is probably not that hordes of people are adopting witchcraft. I'll leave it to the reader to guess the simplest and most likely explanation.
  - conchrat 4y ago
    I understand your point but I think witchcraft might not be the best example. If witchcraft started going viral, I would absolutely be tempted to give it a shot lol. Would not surprise me if I was not in the minority there
    - alisonatwork 4y ago
      Sure. Adventurous or curious people might give something a try just for the hell of it. For some it will stick. For many it won't. This is what I find so exhausting about those who try to drum up some kind of controversy around gender identity. Assuming it is all just a fad, who cares? Where's the issue when people decide to switch their gender on a whim? It's their lives. People do all kinds of things on a whim. Adults, teens and children too. Especially children, in fact. Sometimes people regret the things they did, sometimes they don't. Oh well, it's part of life. I could understand being concerned about a social trend if it was causing violent behavior that negatively affected other people's lives, but this isn't that. Who is it hurting if someone decides to identify as another gender? Even if they pursue medical intervention, it's only going to affect them at worst. If anything the small government/pro-freedom position should be to defend the right of those people to live how they want.
fredley 4y ago
This reminds me of the virus in _Snow Crash_ which is spread virtually, but affects its victims physically.
kome 4y ago
very very good point. and anecdotally, i think it's indeed the case for gender dysphoria... btw, not long ago there was a sociologist from columbia, working on the autism epidemics, pointing out how autism is "contagious" among parents https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0003122411399389 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0003122411399389 - so it's not for the first time that we point out at the sociogenesis of mental illness
- mschuster91 4y ago
  Hell no it's not. Gender non-conforming people have been a staple throughout human history, with examples dating back to at least the 2nd century AD [1], and not just in Europe but in South Asia as well [2]. The thing is, many societies didn't care for a long time, and only in the 20th century repression really took off with the rise of ultra-fundamentalist religions. Now we're seeing the backlash against that and people obviously are way more free to be who they are once again - so neither a surprise nor an epidemic. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elagabalus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elagabalus [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia)
  - kome 4y ago
    i know it has been a staple throughout human history, and i'm not contesting that. i just posit that the proportion of it, nowadays, might be inflated by social media and mimetic behaviors. edit, a very enlightening comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33879136 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33879136
4gotunameagain 4y ago
This is the direct outcome of "political correctness", and of silencing people that disagree with you. Even suggesting the fact that mass sociogenic illnesses (formerly called mass hysteria) primarily affect girls [1] goes against the new religion and is vilified immediately. [1] https://adc.bmj.com/content/archdischild/106/5/420.full.pdf https://adc.bmj.com/content/archdischild/106/5/420.full.pdf
- ryanbrunner 4y ago
  Most objections of claims about mass sociogenic illnesses that I've seen have to do with people using it to dismiss behaviour they don't like, often without any real evidence that this is "mass sociogenic illness". Even this article doesn't really make any attempt to disprove a null hypothesis and we basically are required to take these people at their word that a) the behaviour expressed is not consistent with Tourette's and the patients don't actually have it, and b) the source of this is due to the YouTuber mentioned. There's no control group or anything to prove these two facts beyond the author's opinion.
LudwigNagasena 4y ago
What boggles my mind is that people who adamantly claim that all gender behavior is socially constructed are the ones who are the first to denounce the idea that you can learn to want to be another gender.
- GaryNumanVevo 4y ago
  It's less "learning to be another gender" but more being in a society that allows an individual to express their gender as something other than their sex.
- funcDropShadow 4y ago
  And they are absolutely sure that you need a physical modification to adapt to a socially constructed norm. And at the same time they demand medical procedures while denying that it is a medical condition, whose treatment needs to be studied with scientific rigor. Instead they say the affected persons know their best treatment. Just imagine applying that same approach to addicts.
  - Macha 4y ago
    Is it? Transmedicalists (those who belive sex reassignment is a required goal) are a minority in trans communities and "truscum" was created as a derogatory term for this attitude indicating its unpopularity. If you mean puberty blockers for trans youth rather than sex reassignment, they have much more support because of their non-permanent nature. We let many teenagers make decisions about things like tattoos and piercings too
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - smeej 4y ago
      There's still a significant ave gap between these two populations, though. Tattoos and piercings can be obtained by 16-18yos without parental consent, but to be effective, puberty blockers need to start near or before the beginning of puberty, when children are usually 10-14 years old. We may not be talking about many years by raw count, but as a percentage of the total lifespan of those involved, the first group is ~50% older than the second.
Macha 4y ago
Of course if gender non-normativity can be learned, so too can gender normativity (e.g. bro culture is arguably a form of men learning to do what their local culture considers male things). I don't think all trans people would disagree with that part as much as you think (see the "I never knew that could be an option" thoughts from some late transitioners reflecting back), the bit they'd disagree with is the idea that there is an aberration or problem to those who opt to identify with a gender other than their identified at birth sex.
- Ord3rChaos 4y ago
  Normativity by definition is related to actions/outcomes that society deems good/desirable/permissible; non-normativity, the opposite. Societal goals are always a moving target, so it follows that normativity is as well. My dad still uses language like "C'mon! Be a man and do {this thing}." Personally, I believe when I'm old and crotchety the winds of society will leave my language at something like "C'mon! You should do {this thing}." and leave the gender out of it entirely.
- pjc50 4y ago
  > "I never knew that could be an option" thoughts from some late transitioners Anedotally, the three people I knew before transition who later transitioned have all expressed some form of process "I was depressed and didn't understand why" -> "I had these thoughts but suppressed them because I felt they were weird / unacceptable" -> "I learned what transition is and the pieces fell into place". Edit: over a period of many years, that's why they were late transitioners!
- ReactiveJelly 4y ago
  Yeah the reason that the "social contagion" stuff makes my blood pressure spike is because it's almost always a prelude to some kind of "And they're trying to force-feminize everyone and then they're gonna take our children" stuff. You know like, Quentin Tarantino isn't racist even though he said the N word, but if I'm walking down the street and a total stranger comes up to me and starts throwing the N word around, safe bet they're saying something dumb. See my comment a few days ago about "The Internet is graffiti in a bathroom stall". I could probably have a calm good-faith conversation with any of you in real life about gender. But not on a web forum.
johnnymorgan 4y ago
High performance people have been saying this for generations. Surround yourself with positive, talented people to keep your mind clean. Hell even vogue and trash mags call out 'energy vampires' (lol) but it's all the same thing. I legit decided to not listen to gangster rap in the 90s because a dude said to me 'that shit will warp your mind ' but I realized all music and influences do that. So books it was...god I was a nerd! I cut the cord on much of it early on, mostly because the value was terrible (aka music industry in the 90s was just bad value). Now it's the odd anime that had a deep story that pulls me in...and lectures..Holy fug I love watching smart people talk :)
- ReactiveJelly 4y ago
  Amen. In 2011 I watched a really good anime, Puella Magi Madoka Magica, and it helped me realize I'm transgender, and now that I've transitioned I love my body and myself more.
- meowfly 4y ago
  I still listen to "gangster rap" and I'm doing well enough. It's entirely possible to listen to Trap and not drink lean. There are plenty of dorks (I use the word affectionately) watching anime whose fandom has subsumed their ability to be successful. I do think that a person's life trajectory is affected by their closest friends, especially in high school.
  - Ord3rChaos 4y ago
    Can you honestly say that your lived experience hasn't changed you? It's clear "gangster rap" doesn't ruin anyone's lives like the parents of the 90's thought it might. That doesn't absolve it from affecting you in more subtle ways (good and bad).
    - meowfly 4y ago
      Maybe I don't understand the question but of course a persons lived experience affects them. It seems like you've moved the goal posts. What I'm pointing out is that OPs moralizing on good media "Anime, Books" vs bad media "Rap, Trash Magazines" is likely focusing on the wrong things. A person's friends are ultimately what matter in prioritizing values (as far as values can be shaped by environment). But the claim about "gangster rap" (a term I don't like) was "that shit will warp your mind." is false. Moreover, Anime has tons of content that's way darker than anything you'll find in rap. But again, I don't think it really matters.
YellowStuDregg 4y ago
Could people feel dismissive towards your opinion because it sounds like confabulation, rather than a carefully reasoned argument based on data that could spawn a good faith discussion? > What's interesting to me Shower thought, then > This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that... Alright you win!
- throwaway27727 4y ago
  Or because it's a controversial topic and GP is worried about being taken as offensive but still would like to make their point.
  - jackmott42 4y ago
    Our neural networks have learned that people tend to say "I'm sure I'll get downvoted" right before or after saying some nasty racist or sexist shit. So, maybe avoid the phrase if you aren't doing that.
nathias 4y ago
I think this generation is forced into gender essentialism, gender non-conformity used to be much more normal, now it's redefined as if really a conformity to another gender ... very totalitarian
- blueflow 4y ago
  Decades ago, a woman had to do the cleaning chores... nowadays you are the women because you do the cleaning chores. Its the same sexism thinking, but the path is walked the other way. Always be wary of persons who sort your behavior into 'male' and 'female' categories.
mschuster91 4y ago
> then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented. This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _learn_ to want to be another gender. It's very, very simple. There always have been about 10% of people who are left-handed - but for a time in history, teachers and society (sometimes brutally) repressed that and forced left-handed children to use their right hand. Once that relaxed and children were left to freely be who they were, the left-handed ratio went back to its historic norm [1]. Obviously, it's been the same for gay, trans and other sexuality/gender-nonmainstream people. They have always been part of human history - from the old Greeks [2] to early Islamic and Hindu ages [3], but as long as there was an heir available for a long time many simply didn't bother to care or looked away in historic Catholic regions. The repression only went really bad with the Nazis, who destroyed the Institute for Sexology [4] and later on with anti-LGBT laws still remaining on the books for decades, then the anti-gay panic with AIDS, and only nowadays public opinion is beginning to relax. The problem is that Conservatives not just don't get that simple historic fact, they actively deny it based on their morals, and as a result young LGBT people have shockingly high suicide rates (in thoughts, attempts and success [5]). [1] https://www.truthorfiction.com/the-history-of-left-handedness/ https://www.truthorfiction.com/the-history-of-left-handednes... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Greece https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Greec... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia) [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissenschaft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissen... [5] https://www.npr.org/2022/05/05/1096920693/lgbtq-youth-thoughts-of-suicide-trevor-project-survey https://www.npr.org/2022/05/05/1096920693/lgbtq-youth-though...
- deleted 4y ago
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- mrpopo 4y ago
  There's no denying that gender dysphoria exists and has always existed. OP made the claim that it might be statistically over-represented. Looking at the Hijra example, it looks like the Hijra demographics are around 0.5-1% of the population. In the latest polls [0], the proportion of Gen Z that identify as transgender is over 2%. Is there repression/stigma in South Asia keeping some people in the closet? Is the culture difference having an effect on gender dysphoria? Is there a gender dysphoria "contagious" effect? I don't know, but those are interesting questions. [0] https://news.gallup.com/poll/389792/lgbt-identification-ticks-up.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/389792/lgbt-identification-tick...
DarkWiiPlayer 4y ago
> because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _learn_ to want to be another gender. Because we can't. And trust me, I have tried. Trans people are neither "over represented" nor a contagion. And it's not about "hate speech"; it's about stopping the spread of lies and extremist propaganda. The lie that "being trans is a choice" is just one little moving part in the massive machinery of oppressing, persecuting and killing trans people. You don't need actual hate speech to cause harm.
- ergonaught 4y ago
  Are there actual people with Tourette's? Yes. Are there actual people who "learned" to have something Tourette's-like? Yes. If you don't distinguish between the two, then Tourette's is absolutely overrepresented. Denying that this can be the case for gender dysmorphia is neither reasoned nor logical and can absolutely lead to harm. There has to be a way to respect and help people without turning off our brains.
causi 4y ago
The way we have leapt from one societal belief to the other end of the spectrum is, I believe, interfering with objective healthcare. We started at "people who believe and behave outside of gender norms are perverted freaks" and we jumped straight to "you are whatever you think you are." Between those two paradigms there are questions it has become very difficult to research. Questions like "is it possible we are categorizing more than one mental state as being transgender" as an explanation for why some people greatly benefit from transitioning while others are destroyed by it. Questions like "is modifying the body a better treatment than modifying the mind at our current level of medical capability?"
- ryanbrunner 4y ago
  > "you are whatever you think you are." You should do some reading on how gender affirming therapy and treatment works, because it is absolutely not standard to pursue treatment immediately without any process or consultation. Whether transition is the right option is absolutely explored, it's just explored in a way that allows the patient to come to a decision rather than a doctor making the gatekeeping whether this person is "really transgendered".
  - causi 4y ago
    I said that's the societal paradigm, not the healthcare professional opinion. Doctors recognized the legitimacy of gender dysphoria long before society at large did. There are large numbers of self-diagnosed people and not an insignificant number of them are taking improvised or illicit hormone medications. In addition, many jurisdictions such as the UK are moving to make hormone therapy medications available over the counter or after a brief consultation.
    - ryanbrunner 4y ago
      I think it's a stretch to say that society at large approves of taking hormone treatments without consultation with medical professionals.
leephillips 4y ago
“nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _learn_ to want to be another gender.” It’s impossible to have the idea that you want to be another “gender” unless you have learned to want it. The ideas of “gender” and that you can switch yours have to come from somewhere; you have to learn them. Just as: you can’t want to be a doctor unless you’ve learned that there is such a thing as a doctor and that it’s something you can be.
- pjc50 4y ago
  Very confident to assert that this act of imagination is impossible, that nobody in history has ever spontaneously had the idea of trying on another gender's gender-marker clothing and worked from there.
  - leephillips 4y ago
    Did this somebody from history also spontaneously know that the clothes were markers of another gender?
bsaul 4y ago
Indeed. It seems pretty obvious to anyone that has ever witnessed a high school hall that teenagers mimic far more than just clothes. Fashion goes way beyond that.
brookst 4y ago
> statistically over represented Over represented compared to what? The incidence of these disorders back when admitting them would get you bullied / raped / killed? An alternative explanation is that reducing the social straitjackets that enforced conformity is leading to greater diversity of human behavior. Maybe yes, maybe no, but it’s at least a hypothesis worth considering. BTW your point would be stronger without the persecution complex. And stronger yet with an acknowledgement that, while tic-like behavior and multi-year cognitive identity issues may have correlations, also they may not.
- nicoburns 4y ago
  > Over represented compared to what? In the case of gender dysphoria, the obvious comparison would be, compared to a society where one can subvert gender norms and be accepted without changing one's identity. The emergence of trans movement has created a space where gender-nonconforming people can find more acceptance, but it comes with own set of norms and requirements. One of which is that one must change their identity and, in many cases, conform to the norms of your newly chosen identity (certainly not everyone in the trans community enforces identity-based gender norms, but that's also true of general society when it comes to sex-based norms. In my experience, they're both about as bad as each other. I've lost count of the number of times people have told me that I must be a certain way or have had certain experiences because of my gender identity).
  - brookst 4y ago
    I kept waiting for you to support the “over represented” claim. Much disappointment. Over represented compared to what real thing? What should the representation be, in terms of percent, compared to what we see today?
    - nicoburns 4y ago
      The "real" thing would be the gender dysphoria present if people weren't subject to a society telling them that if they don't conform to the norms of <gender> then they can't be <gender>, they must be <other gender>. A society that conflates wanting to live and present in a certain way with wanting a certain body type (these are both valid things to want, but they ought to be treated as independent phenomena rather than as being linked by an abstract concept of gender). Having such an escape is better than not having it, but it's far from an ideal gender free society (where we effectively treat everyone as having a non-binary gender), in which I suspect we would see a lot less gender dysphoria. Allowing people to choose which set of gender norms they want to follow is still enforcing gender norms if you expect people to choose a single identity and don't allow people to freely mix and match.
ReactiveJelly 4y ago
You're already getting swamped but I wanna take this bit in good faith: > illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented If it was true that gender dysphoria had a major "social contagion" component, what would you want to do about that? Censor speech so children can't discuss gender? Like how some people think censor sex ed was a treatment for teen pregnancy? Put up bureaucratic barriers to transition, at the cost of hurting people who really are transgender?
- deleted 4y ago
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simplotek 4y ago
> This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _learn_ to want to be another gender. But I think there's some interesting parallels to be observed here, and discounting that based on "moral virtue" or "denying hate speech" or whatever i'll be attacked with is just moving the target. I feel you're grossly misrepresenting the issue. It means nothing if you believe people can be re-educated to cease to identify as a specific gender or repress their sexuality throughout their whole lives. That's completely irrelevant. You can also argue that you can re-educated men to be ok with being impotent or be bald or not need glasses, but somehow the conservative side of society is perfectly ok with having whole industries devoted to pumping out erectile disfuncion pills to circumvent natural health issues. So you have to ask yourself why do you feel it's ok to repress whole segments of society because they don't feel comfortable with who they are, while you are perfectly ok with other segments pulling nature's cheat codes to achieve the exact same thing. This is exactly the point: the authoritarian motivation behind repressing minorities, and the hate speech that goes along with it.
- naasking 4y ago
  > It means nothing if you believe people can be re-educated to cease to identify as a specific gender or repress their sexuality throughout their whole lives. That's completely irrelevant. You can also argue that you can re-educated men to be ok with being impotent or be bald or not need glasses, but somehow the conservative side of society is perfectly ok with having whole industries devoted to pumping out erectile disfuncion pills to circumvent natural health issues. I don't understand this. The core problem with gender dysphoria is that you feel significant discomfort with your biological sex. If it were possible to legitimately "re-educate" oneself to not feel this discomfort, that would be considerably cheaper, less invasive and less problematic overall than trying to change one's sex. All surgery carries risk of death after all, and lifetime of hormone therapy is annoying to say the least. Being bald is not just a feeling of discomfort with having no hair, it has real consequences. Baldness is generally considered to be less attractive, and attractiveness impacts career and dating prospects, for instance. Being impotent also has real-world consequences. It impacts dating and also impacts your ability to conceive. Arguably, being trans also has real-world consequences as well, so if a solution became available that could eliminate the gender dysphoria without changing your sex, I would be very surprised if plenty of trans people wouldn't choose that option, and not just because of social stigma. The resistance to such a solution comes from two understandable directions: a) terrible gay conversion therapy that doesn't actually work, and b) the (mistaken) notion of mind-body dualism that many people internalize over their lives, that their identity, their mind, is separate from their body and has more primacy.
naasking 4y ago
> then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented I don't think this is necessarily new. Anorexia seems to increase proportionally to public awareness of anorexia. It's not just that diagnosis actually improves, it literally appears to be a causal connection, as in, hospitalizations for health problems due to undereating increase dramatically after public awareness about anorexia increases in response to media coverage or public awareness campaigns. Pretty wild. This was discussed in the book "Crazy Like Us: The Globalization of the American Psyche".
TomSwirly 4y ago
I downvoted you because I knew that your comment would prevent any discussion about the actual article, and that was in fact what occurred. This whole "I'm going to say [something offtopic and offensive to a lot of people]. This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody [ridiculous generalization about humans]" is feckless and intellectually dishonest. You do this because it will be downvoted.
aordano 4y ago
Disclaimer: I am transgender and i have done actual research on transgenderism a couple years back. I have seen this firsthand on some acquaintances. Social media has a massive influence on people and there are some persons specifically that have a weaker sense of identity (usually associated with poor development or some mental disorder like schizophrenia, STPD, or BPD), and those persons can be influenced to the point of actually, legit molding their own identity by their own media consumption. This consumption in most people only plants seeds that will lead to questioning or trying stuff, but won't have a long-lasting impact on their core identity. So for most people this kind of exposition will be something either transitory or will just provide awareness. People grow out of it and it actually it's "just a phase" for many. So yes people can learn to have a new identity if they don't have a strong core identity formed yet or if it is weak or broken enough. OTOH, i am unsure what do you mean by a statistical over-representation of GD. There are no bounds set for deviation of the norm for the general population (i.e. normalized rate of growth of % of population that is transgender is not an outlier vs the rate of growth of other emergent behaviors afforded by greater overall inclusion and reduction of discrimination). The places where it is statistically over-represented, like on people within the Autism Spectrum, are under investigation. In any case the risks of social media brainwashing are not restricted to stuff like disorders but go way beyond and i think the solution to this stuff is, like for many other things, more education and awareness of risks, tradeoffs, what is gender, what is identity, and how they work both intrinsically and within the bounds of social interactions.
- class4behavior 4y ago
  Parent might be falsely inferring an over-representation of GD from the statistical discrepancy between younger and older age groups of those who identify as LGTBQ+.
  - zozbot234 4y ago
    IIRC, research also shows that those who identify as trans in middle age are much more likely to be happy when they do choose to transition, compared to the younger folks.
red_admiral 4y ago
I have gender dysphoria myself, and you get an upvote from me because I think you are speaking the truth in a way that would lead to better outcomes for many of the affected people, if one properly thought through the implications. I understand gender dysphoria (as opposed to body dysphoria/dysmorphia in a stricter sense) to be a mismatch between someone's own preferences, interests etc. inasfar as they touch on categories that society has declared to be gendered, and society's expectations of the same - at least those of your local bubble of society. This means there are two non-mutually-exclusive ways to make the lives of gender dysphoric people better: (1) let them change themselves (many options from pronouns to hormones and surgery), or (2) change society's expectations. Out of sympathy for people suffering from gender dysphoria, I wish for a bit more of (2) in the world. Even in a vastly improved society, there will be people who decide that medical changes such as hormones/surgery are right for them, and as far as possible we should support them. These people existed, in small numbers, before "trans" was cool, and they will still exist when the media interest has picked up some new favourite category. (By analogy, Tourette's syndrome is also a real thing that existed before the internet, and will still exist when this particular media spike has died down.)
- niom 4y ago
  The "trans/gay/lesbian is cool now" explanation doesn't hold a lot of water to me. If I had the choice to not be gay, I wouldn't be. Life would be so much easier, emotionally and otherwise. Sex would be lower risk and it would be much easier to find a romantic partner. I spent a long time - two decades - suppressing it, as hard as I could, and it did not go away. Instead I was anxious and depressed. After I started to accept myself, those things became a lot better. I look forward to the day I come out. Transitioning is 100x harder. The nonconformity is obvious. The antagonism directed at transitioning people is unavoidable, strong and potentially deadly - violent and lethal attacks on trans people are becoming much more common every year. Compulsory sterilization for people legally transitioning is still mandated in many countries and was only abolished in progressive countries in the last few years. No, nobody is doing any of this because it's "cool".
  - red_admiral 4y ago
RocketOne 4y ago
This is exactly what I thought of when I saw "social media-induced illness": MSMI I saw this in the school I led, especially in young girls. One of them starts cutting, suddenly we have multiple girls cutting. One of them struggles with bulimia, suddenly the guidance counselor is reporting that she has an inordinate number of girls coming in for counselling about bulimia. I dont think its any different with claiming to be transgender. And my current school counselor contact confirms that - for every one child she sees that she believes may actually struggle with body dysmorphia and she believes may be trans, there are 10 more coming in because its the 'thing' to be. These are usually kids who are troubled and are desperately seeking attention and care, legit needs, but going about it the only way they see that's acceptable. They gain attention, they gain power, and in an odd way, status among their peers for 'being who they are.'
- simplotek 4y ago
  > I saw this in the school I led, especially in young girls. One of them starts cutting, suddenly we have multiple girls cutting. One of them struggles with bulimia, suddenly the guidance counselor is reporting that she has an inordinate number of girls coming in for counselling about bulimia. When you showcase suicides on TV you also have upticks in suicides. Same goes for mass shootings, copycat murderers, and even political protests. When the 101 dalmatians movie was released, there was also an uptick in demand for dalmatians. I fail to see how this means it's ok to fabricate diseases to downplay the effect that mass media has on people.
- CMCDragonkai 4y ago
  Perhaps similar to gluten intolerance as well. I find it interesting that the mainstream is being biased towards believing in natural determinism instead of nurture and environmental influence.
denton-scratch 4y ago
> illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented Can you explain what it means for an illness to be "statistically over-represented"? I can parse it several ways, but not so it makes sense. E.g. - Gender dysphoria is more common than influenza - Gender dysphoria is more common in human societies than in gendered alien communities - Gender dysphoria is discussed by a greater proportion of Youtube posters than you'd expect from it's rate in the population I'm guessing you mean the last; but I have no idea how mmuch it's discussed on Youtube, and I doubt there are reliable figures for its occurrence in the population.
djexjms 4y ago
My partner of the last six years is trans. Your post doesn't strike me as hate speech, but what Hacker News commenters seem not to understand is that making overly general statements about entire groups of people can often lead to an oversimplified view of the situation (see what I did there). Let's start with the assumption that people can and do learn to "want" to be a particular gender. I am not an anthropologist, but I feel like this is a pretty uncontroversial take, and is the mechanism for how cis-gendered people learn to follow the gender norms of the culture they find themselves in. This is the key difference between gender and sex. Gender norms seem to be a cultural universal, but the form those norms take is dependent on time and place. What this means is that in any society there are two sets of behavioral norms, one for perceived men, and one for perceived women. If a person in this society has a strong preference about which set of norms they prefer, and if the set of norms they prefer doesn't line up with their sex, you have the potential for that person to identify with the other gender. The term "transgender" is new, but behaviors associated with the term go back as far as you care to look. So you have this potential tension where a person might prefer the gender norms of the other sex, but you also have the fact that questioning norms of any kind in a society is always somewhat taboo. A few very dedicated people would live their lives as the other gender. Many more probably would have liked to if they were aware that it was an option, but were not (in other words, even questioning a social norm can be difficult if there isn't already public discussion about it). So if the sudden perceived increase in trans people seems like a sociogenic disease to you, I can see how you might think that. I can also see how hurtful it is to many people to frame it in those terms. If we take a closer look at the linked paper, they hypothesize that one of the drivers of the tourettes-like disease is attention seeking behavior. Are there people who decide to transition ultimately because they believe they will get more attention? I'm sure some do. But thinking that is the motivation for most trans people is a very hurtful overgeneralization and is unhelpful because it is just wrong. The trans people that I am personally acquainted with don't want more attention. They want less of it. If you even glance at common discussion topics in trans discussion forums, you will see that there is a lot of discussion about "passing". Passing doesn't seem like attention-seeking behavior to me, it seems like the exact opposite. Does social media have no role to play in explaining the increase in people who identify as trans? It probably does have some role there. But its only accelerating and amplifying trends that already existed. LGBT+ issues in general have been getting less and less taboo to talk about for the last several decades. The internet and communications technology more generally is exposing people to more cultures and norms. My hypothesis is that there were many preexisting people who were unsatisfied with the gender roles that they were expected to fulfill, and that growing acceptance and discussion of LGBT+ issues made them realize that there was no reason to keep putting up with them anymore.
lukev 4y ago
This is a dangerous rhetorical maneuver, though, because it: 1. Accepts the existence and influence of social-media-induced illness: 2. Does not rigorously define the condition, it's symptoms, scope or mechanism: 3. Therefore, leaving us free to apply it to gender identity or really, anything at all. Trumpism? SMII. Wokeness? SMII. Pro-union sentiment? You're not gonna believe this, also a SMII. And once you call something a "disease" the implication is that it should be "cured" which gets scary quick.
RC_ITR 4y ago
>then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented. Don't fall into the trap of assuming that 1950's Western norms are a 'baseline.' History shows us that almost all expressions of gender are fluid. The idea of "men and women need to be segregated in certain places (particularly when nude) and must dress differently' is likely the cause of how prevalent transgender people have become. It was always an unsustainable system that was only allowed to flourish because a powerful minority wanted it to. Like are you a boy that relates primarily to women? Well you either endure being separated from them for a ton of meaningful developmental activities or you become transgender. I think there are plenty of people who would be fine with their biological sex if it didn't come with so much societal baggage.
- SavageBeast 4y ago
  > ... and must dress differently Operating based on a sampling of women I know - Im going to perform an experiment - I have some clothes of mine that I (Male with a capital M) no longer wear and Im going to give them to some Female friends for their own use. We'll see what happens but I bet Im going to be met with confusing expressions and laughed at - at best. Men and women do not dress differently on the count of societal pressures but rather express themselves differently on the count of different imperatives. You can slice it 6 different ways but outside of a small minority of people with non-standard gender ideals, the vast majority of women want to "be pretty" in whatever way that means to them and the vast majority of men want to "look like a man" for their various reasons and in whatever way that means to them. I realize this is a terribly "incorrect" thing to say these days but at the same time its among the most pervasive ideals I can think of - right up there with the understanding that water is wet. Out side of groups where the word "Patriarchy" is thrown around, men are men and women are women and neither would have it any other way. This isn't due to societal pressure to conform either. This is prevailing behavior of both genders at work. I personally do not understand why a minority of people choosing alternative, non-birth gender roles needs to be cast into some movement where everyones gender is in question. Im not sure I know anyone who has ever so much as questioned the "baggage" their bio-gender is supposedly saddled with. According to modern psychiatry (which for the purposes of this conversation we'll assume is valid since we all agree Sociopathy and Eating Disorders are real things too), the DSM-5 includes Gender Dysphoria. Psychiatry considers that a real thing right next to some other things I think we can all agree are real. > History shows us that almost all expressions of gender are fluid. politely said: CITATION PLEASE
claudiawerner 4y ago
>This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _learn_ to want to be another gender. Did you really think this was going to be downvoted on Hacker News of all places?
- spoils19 4y ago
  The famously 'progressive' HackerNews? Years of reading the comments has led me to believe that the GPs assumption is mostly correct.
  - claudiawerner 4y ago
    It could be my own bias, but I don't see HN as a particularly progressive place, at least as compared to, say, Reddit. Granted, it can be a good or a bad thing, but HN has a far wider spectrum of opinions that get upvoted; IME trans issues in particular dominate comment threads when it comes to LGBT issues.
    - spiralx 4y ago
      HN is probably the most right-wing social media site I use TBH, I'm amazed that this thread is still producing civil discussion.
Karawebnetwork 4y ago
According to Gallup's poll in early 2022, which they present as estimates, 0.7% of the US population is trans. In India, 0.6% people self-identified as hijra (Sahastrabuddhe et al., 2012). In the 2011 census in India, 0.04% answered with "Other" when asked to choose between "Male", "Female" and "Other". Canada included the question in their latest census and the result was 0.2%. In my opinion, a mandatory government census provides data that is more accurate than Gallup's phone poll. "The proportions of transgender and non-binary people were three to seven times higher for Generation Z (born between 1997 and 2006, 0.79%) and millennials (born between 1981 and 1996, 0.51%) than for Generation X (born between 1966 and 1980, 0.19%), baby boomers (born between 1946 and 1965, 0.15%) and the Interwar and Greatest Generations (born in 1945 or earlier, 0.12%)." Canada's government also adds this under their data comparability section: "Belgium (0.5% among people aged 18 to 75 in 2021) and New Zealand (0.5% among people aged 18 and older in 2020) have also published representative survey-based data on their transgender populations. Other countries have published 2021 data on transgender people using crowdsourcing and non-representative surveys, including Ireland (0.6% among people aged 18 and older), England and Wales (0.6% among people aged 16 and older), and the United States (0.8% among people aged 18 and older)." Being transgender is not a mental disorder or illness, but rather a natural variation of human diversity. Everyone has the right to express their gender identity in a way that is authentic and comfortable for them. I fail to see how the topic of a mass social media-induced illness applies here.
VictorPath 4y ago
> we can _learn_ to want to be another gender If that is true, then cookie cutter expected gender behavior can be "learned" as well. In fact much of it was illegal in the US a few decades ago.
totemandtoken 4y ago
>> This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _learn_ to want to be another gender. Except this was disproven. Dr. Money and David Rimer is the infamous case study I believe

JKCalhoun 4y ago

Tough call since it is also possible a certain number of people have always felt this way but only by others "coming out" do they now feel comfortable expressing themselves as well.

poulpy123 4y ago

Didn't a researcher shown that's it was indeed the case ?

rippercushions 4y ago
That would be the "rapid onset gender dysphoria" controversy, which is so politically charged that lay observers (/me waves) will have a very hard time separating science from ideology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid-onset_gender_dysphoria_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid-onset_gender_dysphoria_c...

roody15 4y ago

It reminds me of the old saying “Monkey see .. Monkey do”. An over simplification perhaps but there is no question we “mimic” all the time.

anenefan 4y ago
I think similarly. I am wondering how they differentiate this specific extreme behaviour moving "socially," to other subtle behaviours which are copied and mirrored within small tight knit social groups - especially kids / teenagers? I found the 9:1 ratio of girls to boys intriguing, given the same or very similar mechanism might been a huge benefit to females in past ages where they might be married into a strange culture.

agileAlligator 4y ago

brnt 4y ago

Recently read the story of a detransitioner and the statistic that about a third falls of the radar (and due missing their hormones, almost certainly are unhappy about the treatment). Social media are implicated in the spread of these ideas (all ideas), and the detransitioner pleaded for better info from professionals and an end to doctor neutrality for underage trans people. Changed my mind a bit.

somedude895 4y ago
Could be part of the Tavistock Center[0] story? The state of affairs around transsexuality is horrifying. Critical discussion is basically not allowed on moral grounds and most people who "study" the topic (eg gender studies), care for said patients (eg gender clinics), etc are the same people who already adhere to that no-criticism-allowed agenda. [0] https://news.sky.com/story/amp/nhs-gender-clinic-the-tavistock-centre-could-face-legal-action-over-alleged-failings-in-care-12670235 https://news.sky.com/story/amp/nhs-gender-clinic-the-tavisto...
ReactiveJelly 4y ago
idk I got a stapled packet of info from my provider and the effects are listed on Wikipedia these days for the stuff I'm on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminizing_hormone_therapy#Effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminizing_hormone_therapy#Eff... It's a tradeoff. At least we can all agree that adults have the right to transition under an Informed Consent model. Countries like the UK, without IC, are hellholes for trans medical care. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1eWIshUzr8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1eWIshUzr8
- brnt 4y ago
  This is in the NL. Yes, they got a pile of folders, but in retrospect they would have wanted psychiatric care, because these issues were not treated and instead channelled into gender disphoria.
DarkWiiPlayer 4y ago
Less than 1%. That's the number of people who detransition simply because they didn't feel it was the right thing for them. Of the less than 2% of detransitioners overall, the vast majority names reasons like social pressure, transitioning being too difficult, etc. Dunno what numbers you are talking about, but the ones I know certainly underline gender dysphoria being a very real thing and not some sort of "social contagion", and my personal experience definitely aligns with this as well: I don't know a single trans person who seems to regret transitioning, but a whole number of trans people who are struggling with the constant hate they get, fuelled in part by this sort of rhetoric. And since the article in one of the replies mentioned puberty blockers: They are 1. entirely reversible, 2. routinely prescribed to cis children for other medical reasons and 3. unlike these blockers, puberty is not reversible. Can I change your mind, even if just a little bit? I don't know; but if you really want to change your mind, start looking closely into the "statistics" of the right. Their misrepresentations are often absurdly superficial. It's all a lie, and the parts that aren't, usually aren't that bad.

mnsc 4y ago

Since there is a school of thought that gender to a great extent is socially learned behaviour the idea that you by learning more about gender transgression would "create" a desire that "I would be more comfortable in 'that gender' over there" is not far-fetched although I'm not aware of any research. The issue is mostly by those who pathologize that state of not being comfortable in ones "gender assigned at birth", like saying "...other illnesses such as gender dysphoria" and then wanting to "cure" this dysphoria in other ways than enabling a safe and informed transition. Like for instance banning people talking about their experiences, good and bad, in transitioning.

DSingularity 4y ago
How can there ever be an informed transition with something like shifting genders?
- jackmott42 4y ago
  If you suppose that understanding this well is not possible, that would imply you also do not understand it well, so perhaps you should leave other people alone to do what they will, unless some good reason is revealed not to.
  - DSingularity 4y ago
    Agreed — until it starts to harm people. Some are suggesting that this is creating harm for minors.
- ReactiveJelly 4y ago
  You can practice presenting differently in safe social situations, that's reversible. (e.g. crossdressing) Trans fem people can remove their facial hair without doing other medical transition steps. The effects of hormone replacement are so slow that you can safely "try them out" for a month or two and not have a huge permanent burden. You talk to people and think about it real hard and sleep on it for years. It looks sudden from the outside because there's such a stigma over saying "Hey I'm thinking about trying on a new gender, do you think it would work?" It's not too different from other body modification like tattoos or vasectomies. You can't fully know for sure, but there is a point where you decide that the risk is worth it, because the potential payoff seems worth it. Then it usually turns out it is. Most "de-transition" cases are people who couldn't afford the monetary cost or social cost of presenting as transgender. It's un-common to transition and then find out you're actually cis.

bognition 4y ago

Counter hypothesis. For the last several decades society put massive pressure on kids to conform to heteronormativity. With these pressures lessening more and more people are feeling empowered to explore their sexuality. Social media is absolutely involved, but we really don't know what the base rate would be in a society devoid of this kind of pressure.

api 4y ago
This brings to mind one of my rules about conservative panics: If laws against witchcraft are removed and/or witchcraft is destigmatized and then all the sudden there appears to be an explosion of witches, the explanation is probably not that hordes of people are adopting witchcraft. I'll leave it to the reader to guess the simplest and most likely explanation.
- conchrat 4y ago
  I understand your point but I think witchcraft might not be the best example. If witchcraft started going viral, I would absolutely be tempted to give it a shot lol. Would not surprise me if I was not in the minority there
  - alisonatwork 4y ago
    Sure. Adventurous or curious people might give something a try just for the hell of it. For some it will stick. For many it won't. This is what I find so exhausting about those who try to drum up some kind of controversy around gender identity. Assuming it is all just a fad, who cares? Where's the issue when people decide to switch their gender on a whim? It's their lives. People do all kinds of things on a whim. Adults, teens and children too. Especially children, in fact. Sometimes people regret the things they did, sometimes they don't. Oh well, it's part of life. I could understand being concerned about a social trend if it was causing violent behavior that negatively affected other people's lives, but this isn't that. Who is it hurting if someone decides to identify as another gender? Even if they pursue medical intervention, it's only going to affect them at worst. If anything the small government/pro-freedom position should be to defend the right of those people to live how they want.

fredley 4y ago

This reminds me of the virus in _Snow Crash_ which is spread virtually, but affects its victims physically.

kome 4y ago

very very good point. and anecdotally, i think it's indeed the case for gender dysphoria... btw, not long ago there was a sociologist from columbia, working on the autism epidemics, pointing out how autism is "contagious" among parents https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0003122411399389 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0003122411399389 - so it's not for the first time that we point out at the sociogenesis of mental illness

mschuster91 4y ago
Hell no it's not. Gender non-conforming people have been a staple throughout human history, with examples dating back to at least the 2nd century AD [1], and not just in Europe but in South Asia as well [2]. The thing is, many societies didn't care for a long time, and only in the 20th century repression really took off with the rise of ultra-fundamentalist religions. Now we're seeing the backlash against that and people obviously are way more free to be who they are once again - so neither a surprise nor an epidemic. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elagabalus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elagabalus [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia)
- kome 4y ago
  i know it has been a staple throughout human history, and i'm not contesting that. i just posit that the proportion of it, nowadays, might be inflated by social media and mimetic behaviors. edit, a very enlightening comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33879136 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33879136

4gotunameagain 4y ago

This is the direct outcome of "political correctness", and of silencing people that disagree with you. Even suggesting the fact that mass sociogenic illnesses (formerly called mass hysteria) primarily affect girls [1] goes against the new religion and is vilified immediately. [1] https://adc.bmj.com/content/archdischild/106/5/420.full.pdf https://adc.bmj.com/content/archdischild/106/5/420.full.pdf

ryanbrunner 4y ago
Most objections of claims about mass sociogenic illnesses that I've seen have to do with people using it to dismiss behaviour they don't like, often without any real evidence that this is "mass sociogenic illness". Even this article doesn't really make any attempt to disprove a null hypothesis and we basically are required to take these people at their word that a) the behaviour expressed is not consistent with Tourette's and the patients don't actually have it, and b) the source of this is due to the YouTuber mentioned. There's no control group or anything to prove these two facts beyond the author's opinion.

LudwigNagasena 4y ago

What boggles my mind is that people who adamantly claim that all gender behavior is socially constructed are the ones who are the first to denounce the idea that you can learn to want to be another gender.

GaryNumanVevo 4y ago
It's less "learning to be another gender" but more being in a society that allows an individual to express their gender as something other than their sex.
funcDropShadow 4y ago
And they are absolutely sure that you need a physical modification to adapt to a socially constructed norm. And at the same time they demand medical procedures while denying that it is a medical condition, whose treatment needs to be studied with scientific rigor. Instead they say the affected persons know their best treatment. Just imagine applying that same approach to addicts.
- Macha 4y ago
  Is it? Transmedicalists (those who belive sex reassignment is a required goal) are a minority in trans communities and "truscum" was created as a derogatory term for this attitude indicating its unpopularity. If you mean puberty blockers for trans youth rather than sex reassignment, they have much more support because of their non-permanent nature. We let many teenagers make decisions about things like tattoos and piercings too
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - smeej 4y ago
    There's still a significant ave gap between these two populations, though. Tattoos and piercings can be obtained by 16-18yos without parental consent, but to be effective, puberty blockers need to start near or before the beginning of puberty, when children are usually 10-14 years old. We may not be talking about many years by raw count, but as a percentage of the total lifespan of those involved, the first group is ~50% older than the second.

Macha 4y ago

Of course if gender non-normativity can be learned, so too can gender normativity (e.g. bro culture is arguably a form of men learning to do what their local culture considers male things). I don't think all trans people would disagree with that part as much as you think (see the "I never knew that could be an option" thoughts from some late transitioners reflecting back), the bit they'd disagree with is the idea that there is an aberration or problem to those who opt to identify with a gender other than their identified at birth sex.

Ord3rChaos 4y ago
Normativity by definition is related to actions/outcomes that society deems good/desirable/permissible; non-normativity, the opposite. Societal goals are always a moving target, so it follows that normativity is as well. My dad still uses language like "C'mon! Be a man and do {this thing}." Personally, I believe when I'm old and crotchety the winds of society will leave my language at something like "C'mon! You should do {this thing}." and leave the gender out of it entirely.
pjc50 4y ago
> "I never knew that could be an option" thoughts from some late transitioners Anedotally, the three people I knew before transition who later transitioned have all expressed some form of process "I was depressed and didn't understand why" -> "I had these thoughts but suppressed them because I felt they were weird / unacceptable" -> "I learned what transition is and the pieces fell into place". Edit: over a period of many years, that's why they were late transitioners!
ReactiveJelly 4y ago
Yeah the reason that the "social contagion" stuff makes my blood pressure spike is because it's almost always a prelude to some kind of "And they're trying to force-feminize everyone and then they're gonna take our children" stuff. You know like, Quentin Tarantino isn't racist even though he said the N word, but if I'm walking down the street and a total stranger comes up to me and starts throwing the N word around, safe bet they're saying something dumb. See my comment a few days ago about "The Internet is graffiti in a bathroom stall". I could probably have a calm good-faith conversation with any of you in real life about gender. But not on a web forum.

johnnymorgan 4y ago

High performance people have been saying this for generations. Surround yourself with positive, talented people to keep your mind clean. Hell even vogue and trash mags call out 'energy vampires' (lol) but it's all the same thing. I legit decided to not listen to gangster rap in the 90s because a dude said to me 'that shit will warp your mind ' but I realized all music and influences do that. So books it was...god I was a nerd! I cut the cord on much of it early on, mostly because the value was terrible (aka music industry in the 90s was just bad value). Now it's the odd anime that had a deep story that pulls me in...and lectures..Holy fug I love watching smart people talk :)

ReactiveJelly 4y ago
Amen. In 2011 I watched a really good anime, Puella Magi Madoka Magica, and it helped me realize I'm transgender, and now that I've transitioned I love my body and myself more.
meowfly 4y ago
I still listen to "gangster rap" and I'm doing well enough. It's entirely possible to listen to Trap and not drink lean. There are plenty of dorks (I use the word affectionately) watching anime whose fandom has subsumed their ability to be successful. I do think that a person's life trajectory is affected by their closest friends, especially in high school.
- Ord3rChaos 4y ago
  Can you honestly say that your lived experience hasn't changed you? It's clear "gangster rap" doesn't ruin anyone's lives like the parents of the 90's thought it might. That doesn't absolve it from affecting you in more subtle ways (good and bad).
  - meowfly 4y ago
    Maybe I don't understand the question but of course a persons lived experience affects them. It seems like you've moved the goal posts. What I'm pointing out is that OPs moralizing on good media "Anime, Books" vs bad media "Rap, Trash Magazines" is likely focusing on the wrong things. A person's friends are ultimately what matter in prioritizing values (as far as values can be shaped by environment). But the claim about "gangster rap" (a term I don't like) was "that shit will warp your mind." is false. Moreover, Anime has tons of content that's way darker than anything you'll find in rap. But again, I don't think it really matters.

YellowStuDregg 4y ago

Could people feel dismissive towards your opinion because it sounds like confabulation, rather than a carefully reasoned argument based on data that could spawn a good faith discussion? > What's interesting to me Shower thought, then > This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that... Alright you win!

throwaway27727 4y ago
Or because it's a controversial topic and GP is worried about being taken as offensive but still would like to make their point.
- jackmott42 4y ago
  Our neural networks have learned that people tend to say "I'm sure I'll get downvoted" right before or after saying some nasty racist or sexist shit. So, maybe avoid the phrase if you aren't doing that.

nathias 4y ago

I think this generation is forced into gender essentialism, gender non-conformity used to be much more normal, now it's redefined as if really a conformity to another gender ... very totalitarian

blueflow 4y ago
Decades ago, a woman had to do the cleaning chores... nowadays you are the women because you do the cleaning chores. Its the same sexism thinking, but the path is walked the other way. Always be wary of persons who sort your behavior into 'male' and 'female' categories.

mschuster91 4y ago

> then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented. This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _learn_ to want to be another gender. It's very, very simple. There always have been about 10% of people who are left-handed - but for a time in history, teachers and society (sometimes brutally) repressed that and forced left-handed children to use their right hand. Once that relaxed and children were left to freely be who they were, the left-handed ratio went back to its historic norm [1]. Obviously, it's been the same for gay, trans and other sexuality/gender-nonmainstream people. They have always been part of human history - from the old Greeks [2] to early Islamic and Hindu ages [3], but as long as there was an heir available for a long time many simply didn't bother to care or looked away in historic Catholic regions. The repression only went really bad with the Nazis, who destroyed the Institute for Sexology [4] and later on with anti-LGBT laws still remaining on the books for decades, then the anti-gay panic with AIDS, and only nowadays public opinion is beginning to relax. The problem is that Conservatives not just don't get that simple historic fact, they actively deny it based on their morals, and as a result young LGBT people have shockingly high suicide rates (in thoughts, attempts and success [5]). [1] https://www.truthorfiction.com/the-history-of-left-handedness/ https://www.truthorfiction.com/the-history-of-left-handednes... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Greece https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Greec... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia) [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissenschaft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissen... [5] https://www.npr.org/2022/05/05/1096920693/lgbtq-youth-thoughts-of-suicide-trevor-project-survey https://www.npr.org/2022/05/05/1096920693/lgbtq-youth-though...

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mrpopo 4y ago
There's no denying that gender dysphoria exists and has always existed. OP made the claim that it might be statistically over-represented. Looking at the Hijra example, it looks like the Hijra demographics are around 0.5-1% of the population. In the latest polls [0], the proportion of Gen Z that identify as transgender is over 2%. Is there repression/stigma in South Asia keeping some people in the closet? Is the culture difference having an effect on gender dysphoria? Is there a gender dysphoria "contagious" effect? I don't know, but those are interesting questions. [0] https://news.gallup.com/poll/389792/lgbt-identification-ticks-up.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/389792/lgbt-identification-tick...

DarkWiiPlayer 4y ago

> because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _learn_ to want to be another gender. Because we can't. And trust me, I have tried. Trans people are neither "over represented" nor a contagion. And it's not about "hate speech"; it's about stopping the spread of lies and extremist propaganda. The lie that "being trans is a choice" is just one little moving part in the massive machinery of oppressing, persecuting and killing trans people. You don't need actual hate speech to cause harm.

ergonaught 4y ago
Are there actual people with Tourette's? Yes. Are there actual people who "learned" to have something Tourette's-like? Yes. If you don't distinguish between the two, then Tourette's is absolutely overrepresented. Denying that this can be the case for gender dysmorphia is neither reasoned nor logical and can absolutely lead to harm. There has to be a way to respect and help people without turning off our brains.

causi 4y ago

The way we have leapt from one societal belief to the other end of the spectrum is, I believe, interfering with objective healthcare. We started at "people who believe and behave outside of gender norms are perverted freaks" and we jumped straight to "you are whatever you think you are." Between those two paradigms there are questions it has become very difficult to research. Questions like "is it possible we are categorizing more than one mental state as being transgender" as an explanation for why some people greatly benefit from transitioning while others are destroyed by it. Questions like "is modifying the body a better treatment than modifying the mind at our current level of medical capability?"

ryanbrunner 4y ago
> "you are whatever you think you are." You should do some reading on how gender affirming therapy and treatment works, because it is absolutely not standard to pursue treatment immediately without any process or consultation. Whether transition is the right option is absolutely explored, it's just explored in a way that allows the patient to come to a decision rather than a doctor making the gatekeeping whether this person is "really transgendered".
- causi 4y ago
  I said that's the societal paradigm, not the healthcare professional opinion. Doctors recognized the legitimacy of gender dysphoria long before society at large did. There are large numbers of self-diagnosed people and not an insignificant number of them are taking improvised or illicit hormone medications. In addition, many jurisdictions such as the UK are moving to make hormone therapy medications available over the counter or after a brief consultation.
  - ryanbrunner 4y ago
    I think it's a stretch to say that society at large approves of taking hormone treatments without consultation with medical professionals.

leephillips 4y ago

“nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _learn_ to want to be another gender.” It’s impossible to have the idea that you want to be another “gender” unless you have learned to want it. The ideas of “gender” and that you can switch yours have to come from somewhere; you have to learn them. Just as: you can’t want to be a doctor unless you’ve learned that there is such a thing as a doctor and that it’s something you can be.

pjc50 4y ago
Very confident to assert that this act of imagination is impossible, that nobody in history has ever spontaneously had the idea of trying on another gender's gender-marker clothing and worked from there.
- leephillips 4y ago
  Did this somebody from history also spontaneously know that the clothes were markers of another gender?

bsaul 4y ago

Indeed. It seems pretty obvious to anyone that has ever witnessed a high school hall that teenagers mimic far more than just clothes. Fashion goes way beyond that.

brookst 4y ago

> statistically over represented Over represented compared to what? The incidence of these disorders back when admitting them would get you bullied / raped / killed? An alternative explanation is that reducing the social straitjackets that enforced conformity is leading to greater diversity of human behavior. Maybe yes, maybe no, but it’s at least a hypothesis worth considering. BTW your point would be stronger without the persecution complex. And stronger yet with an acknowledgement that, while tic-like behavior and multi-year cognitive identity issues may have correlations, also they may not.

nicoburns 4y ago
> Over represented compared to what? In the case of gender dysphoria, the obvious comparison would be, compared to a society where one can subvert gender norms and be accepted without changing one's identity. The emergence of trans movement has created a space where gender-nonconforming people can find more acceptance, but it comes with own set of norms and requirements. One of which is that one must change their identity and, in many cases, conform to the norms of your newly chosen identity (certainly not everyone in the trans community enforces identity-based gender norms, but that's also true of general society when it comes to sex-based norms. In my experience, they're both about as bad as each other. I've lost count of the number of times people have told me that I must be a certain way or have had certain experiences because of my gender identity).
- brookst 4y ago
  I kept waiting for you to support the “over represented” claim. Much disappointment. Over represented compared to what real thing? What should the representation be, in terms of percent, compared to what we see today?
  - nicoburns 4y ago
    The "real" thing would be the gender dysphoria present if people weren't subject to a society telling them that if they don't conform to the norms of <gender> then they can't be <gender>, they must be <other gender>. A society that conflates wanting to live and present in a certain way with wanting a certain body type (these are both valid things to want, but they ought to be treated as independent phenomena rather than as being linked by an abstract concept of gender). Having such an escape is better than not having it, but it's far from an ideal gender free society (where we effectively treat everyone as having a non-binary gender), in which I suspect we would see a lot less gender dysphoria. Allowing people to choose which set of gender norms they want to follow is still enforcing gender norms if you expect people to choose a single identity and don't allow people to freely mix and match.

ReactiveJelly 4y ago

You're already getting swamped but I wanna take this bit in good faith: > illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented If it was true that gender dysphoria had a major "social contagion" component, what would you want to do about that? Censor speech so children can't discuss gender? Like how some people think censor sex ed was a treatment for teen pregnancy? Put up bureaucratic barriers to transition, at the cost of hurting people who really are transgender?

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simplotek 4y ago

> This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _learn_ to want to be another gender. But I think there's some interesting parallels to be observed here, and discounting that based on "moral virtue" or "denying hate speech" or whatever i'll be attacked with is just moving the target. I feel you're grossly misrepresenting the issue. It means nothing if you believe people can be re-educated to cease to identify as a specific gender or repress their sexuality throughout their whole lives. That's completely irrelevant. You can also argue that you can re-educated men to be ok with being impotent or be bald or not need glasses, but somehow the conservative side of society is perfectly ok with having whole industries devoted to pumping out erectile disfuncion pills to circumvent natural health issues. So you have to ask yourself why do you feel it's ok to repress whole segments of society because they don't feel comfortable with who they are, while you are perfectly ok with other segments pulling nature's cheat codes to achieve the exact same thing. This is exactly the point: the authoritarian motivation behind repressing minorities, and the hate speech that goes along with it.

naasking 4y ago
> It means nothing if you believe people can be re-educated to cease to identify as a specific gender or repress their sexuality throughout their whole lives. That's completely irrelevant. You can also argue that you can re-educated men to be ok with being impotent or be bald or not need glasses, but somehow the conservative side of society is perfectly ok with having whole industries devoted to pumping out erectile disfuncion pills to circumvent natural health issues. I don't understand this. The core problem with gender dysphoria is that you feel significant discomfort with your biological sex. If it were possible to legitimately "re-educate" oneself to not feel this discomfort, that would be considerably cheaper, less invasive and less problematic overall than trying to change one's sex. All surgery carries risk of death after all, and lifetime of hormone therapy is annoying to say the least. Being bald is not just a feeling of discomfort with having no hair, it has real consequences. Baldness is generally considered to be less attractive, and attractiveness impacts career and dating prospects, for instance. Being impotent also has real-world consequences. It impacts dating and also impacts your ability to conceive. Arguably, being trans also has real-world consequences as well, so if a solution became available that could eliminate the gender dysphoria without changing your sex, I would be very surprised if plenty of trans people wouldn't choose that option, and not just because of social stigma. The resistance to such a solution comes from two understandable directions: a) terrible gay conversion therapy that doesn't actually work, and b) the (mistaken) notion of mind-body dualism that many people internalize over their lives, that their identity, their mind, is separate from their body and has more primacy.

naasking 4y ago

> then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented I don't think this is necessarily new. Anorexia seems to increase proportionally to public awareness of anorexia. It's not just that diagnosis actually improves, it literally appears to be a causal connection, as in, hospitalizations for health problems due to undereating increase dramatically after public awareness about anorexia increases in response to media coverage or public awareness campaigns. Pretty wild. This was discussed in the book "Crazy Like Us: The Globalization of the American Psyche".

TomSwirly 4y ago

I downvoted you because I knew that your comment would prevent any discussion about the actual article, and that was in fact what occurred. This whole "I'm going to say [something offtopic and offensive to a lot of people]. This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody [ridiculous generalization about humans]" is feckless and intellectually dishonest. You do this because it will be downvoted.

aordano 4y ago

Disclaimer: I am transgender and i have done actual research on transgenderism a couple years back. I have seen this firsthand on some acquaintances. Social media has a massive influence on people and there are some persons specifically that have a weaker sense of identity (usually associated with poor development or some mental disorder like schizophrenia, STPD, or BPD), and those persons can be influenced to the point of actually, legit molding their own identity by their own media consumption. This consumption in most people only plants seeds that will lead to questioning or trying stuff, but won't have a long-lasting impact on their core identity. So for most people this kind of exposition will be something either transitory or will just provide awareness. People grow out of it and it actually it's "just a phase" for many. So yes people can learn to have a new identity if they don't have a strong core identity formed yet or if it is weak or broken enough. OTOH, i am unsure what do you mean by a statistical over-representation of GD. There are no bounds set for deviation of the norm for the general population (i.e. normalized rate of growth of % of population that is transgender is not an outlier vs the rate of growth of other emergent behaviors afforded by greater overall inclusion and reduction of discrimination). The places where it is statistically over-represented, like on people within the Autism Spectrum, are under investigation. In any case the risks of social media brainwashing are not restricted to stuff like disorders but go way beyond and i think the solution to this stuff is, like for many other things, more education and awareness of risks, tradeoffs, what is gender, what is identity, and how they work both intrinsically and within the bounds of social interactions.

class4behavior 4y ago
Parent might be falsely inferring an over-representation of GD from the statistical discrepancy between younger and older age groups of those who identify as LGTBQ+.
- zozbot234 4y ago
  IIRC, research also shows that those who identify as trans in middle age are much more likely to be happy when they do choose to transition, compared to the younger folks.

red_admiral 4y ago

I have gender dysphoria myself, and you get an upvote from me because I think you are speaking the truth in a way that would lead to better outcomes for many of the affected people, if one properly thought through the implications. I understand gender dysphoria (as opposed to body dysphoria/dysmorphia in a stricter sense) to be a mismatch between someone's own preferences, interests etc. inasfar as they touch on categories that society has declared to be gendered, and society's expectations of the same - at least those of your local bubble of society. This means there are two non-mutually-exclusive ways to make the lives of gender dysphoric people better: (1) let them change themselves (many options from pronouns to hormones and surgery), or (2) change society's expectations. Out of sympathy for people suffering from gender dysphoria, I wish for a bit more of (2) in the world. Even in a vastly improved society, there will be people who decide that medical changes such as hormones/surgery are right for them, and as far as possible we should support them. These people existed, in small numbers, before "trans" was cool, and they will still exist when the media interest has picked up some new favourite category. (By analogy, Tourette's syndrome is also a real thing that existed before the internet, and will still exist when this particular media spike has died down.)

niom 4y ago
The "trans/gay/lesbian is cool now" explanation doesn't hold a lot of water to me. If I had the choice to not be gay, I wouldn't be. Life would be so much easier, emotionally and otherwise. Sex would be lower risk and it would be much easier to find a romantic partner. I spent a long time - two decades - suppressing it, as hard as I could, and it did not go away. Instead I was anxious and depressed. After I started to accept myself, those things became a lot better. I look forward to the day I come out. Transitioning is 100x harder. The nonconformity is obvious. The antagonism directed at transitioning people is unavoidable, strong and potentially deadly - violent and lethal attacks on trans people are becoming much more common every year. Compulsory sterilization for people legally transitioning is still mandated in many countries and was only abolished in progressive countries in the last few years. No, nobody is doing any of this because it's "cool".
- red_admiral 4y ago

RocketOne 4y ago

This is exactly what I thought of when I saw "social media-induced illness": MSMI I saw this in the school I led, especially in young girls. One of them starts cutting, suddenly we have multiple girls cutting. One of them struggles with bulimia, suddenly the guidance counselor is reporting that she has an inordinate number of girls coming in for counselling about bulimia. I dont think its any different with claiming to be transgender. And my current school counselor contact confirms that - for every one child she sees that she believes may actually struggle with body dysmorphia and she believes may be trans, there are 10 more coming in because its the 'thing' to be. These are usually kids who are troubled and are desperately seeking attention and care, legit needs, but going about it the only way they see that's acceptable. They gain attention, they gain power, and in an odd way, status among their peers for 'being who they are.'

simplotek 4y ago
> I saw this in the school I led, especially in young girls. One of them starts cutting, suddenly we have multiple girls cutting. One of them struggles with bulimia, suddenly the guidance counselor is reporting that she has an inordinate number of girls coming in for counselling about bulimia. When you showcase suicides on TV you also have upticks in suicides. Same goes for mass shootings, copycat murderers, and even political protests. When the 101 dalmatians movie was released, there was also an uptick in demand for dalmatians. I fail to see how this means it's ok to fabricate diseases to downplay the effect that mass media has on people.
CMCDragonkai 4y ago
Perhaps similar to gluten intolerance as well. I find it interesting that the mainstream is being biased towards believing in natural determinism instead of nurture and environmental influence.

denton-scratch 4y ago

> illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented Can you explain what it means for an illness to be "statistically over-represented"? I can parse it several ways, but not so it makes sense. E.g. - Gender dysphoria is more common than influenza - Gender dysphoria is more common in human societies than in gendered alien communities - Gender dysphoria is discussed by a greater proportion of Youtube posters than you'd expect from it's rate in the population I'm guessing you mean the last; but I have no idea how mmuch it's discussed on Youtube, and I doubt there are reliable figures for its occurrence in the population.

djexjms 4y ago

My partner of the last six years is trans. Your post doesn't strike me as hate speech, but what Hacker News commenters seem not to understand is that making overly general statements about entire groups of people can often lead to an oversimplified view of the situation (see what I did there). Let's start with the assumption that people can and do learn to "want" to be a particular gender. I am not an anthropologist, but I feel like this is a pretty uncontroversial take, and is the mechanism for how cis-gendered people learn to follow the gender norms of the culture they find themselves in. This is the key difference between gender and sex. Gender norms seem to be a cultural universal, but the form those norms take is dependent on time and place. What this means is that in any society there are two sets of behavioral norms, one for perceived men, and one for perceived women. If a person in this society has a strong preference about which set of norms they prefer, and if the set of norms they prefer doesn't line up with their sex, you have the potential for that person to identify with the other gender. The term "transgender" is new, but behaviors associated with the term go back as far as you care to look. So you have this potential tension where a person might prefer the gender norms of the other sex, but you also have the fact that questioning norms of any kind in a society is always somewhat taboo. A few very dedicated people would live their lives as the other gender. Many more probably would have liked to if they were aware that it was an option, but were not (in other words, even questioning a social norm can be difficult if there isn't already public discussion about it). So if the sudden perceived increase in trans people seems like a sociogenic disease to you, I can see how you might think that. I can also see how hurtful it is to many people to frame it in those terms. If we take a closer look at the linked paper, they hypothesize that one of the drivers of the tourettes-like disease is attention seeking behavior. Are there people who decide to transition ultimately because they believe they will get more attention? I'm sure some do. But thinking that is the motivation for most trans people is a very hurtful overgeneralization and is unhelpful because it is just wrong. The trans people that I am personally acquainted with don't want more attention. They want less of it. If you even glance at common discussion topics in trans discussion forums, you will see that there is a lot of discussion about "passing". Passing doesn't seem like attention-seeking behavior to me, it seems like the exact opposite. Does social media have no role to play in explaining the increase in people who identify as trans? It probably does have some role there. But its only accelerating and amplifying trends that already existed. LGBT+ issues in general have been getting less and less taboo to talk about for the last several decades. The internet and communications technology more generally is exposing people to more cultures and norms. My hypothesis is that there were many preexisting people who were unsatisfied with the gender roles that they were expected to fulfill, and that growing acceptance and discussion of LGBT+ issues made them realize that there was no reason to keep putting up with them anymore.

lukev 4y ago

This is a dangerous rhetorical maneuver, though, because it: 1. Accepts the existence and influence of social-media-induced illness: 2. Does not rigorously define the condition, it's symptoms, scope or mechanism: 3. Therefore, leaving us free to apply it to gender identity or really, anything at all. Trumpism? SMII. Wokeness? SMII. Pro-union sentiment? You're not gonna believe this, also a SMII. And once you call something a "disease" the implication is that it should be "cured" which gets scary quick.

RC_ITR 4y ago

>then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented. Don't fall into the trap of assuming that 1950's Western norms are a 'baseline.' History shows us that almost all expressions of gender are fluid. The idea of "men and women need to be segregated in certain places (particularly when nude) and must dress differently' is likely the cause of how prevalent transgender people have become. It was always an unsustainable system that was only allowed to flourish because a powerful minority wanted it to. Like are you a boy that relates primarily to women? Well you either endure being separated from them for a ton of meaningful developmental activities or you become transgender. I think there are plenty of people who would be fine with their biological sex if it didn't come with so much societal baggage.

SavageBeast 4y ago
> ... and must dress differently Operating based on a sampling of women I know - Im going to perform an experiment - I have some clothes of mine that I (Male with a capital M) no longer wear and Im going to give them to some Female friends for their own use. We'll see what happens but I bet Im going to be met with confusing expressions and laughed at - at best. Men and women do not dress differently on the count of societal pressures but rather express themselves differently on the count of different imperatives. You can slice it 6 different ways but outside of a small minority of people with non-standard gender ideals, the vast majority of women want to "be pretty" in whatever way that means to them and the vast majority of men want to "look like a man" for their various reasons and in whatever way that means to them. I realize this is a terribly "incorrect" thing to say these days but at the same time its among the most pervasive ideals I can think of - right up there with the understanding that water is wet. Out side of groups where the word "Patriarchy" is thrown around, men are men and women are women and neither would have it any other way. This isn't due to societal pressure to conform either. This is prevailing behavior of both genders at work. I personally do not understand why a minority of people choosing alternative, non-birth gender roles needs to be cast into some movement where everyones gender is in question. Im not sure I know anyone who has ever so much as questioned the "baggage" their bio-gender is supposedly saddled with. According to modern psychiatry (which for the purposes of this conversation we'll assume is valid since we all agree Sociopathy and Eating Disorders are real things too), the DSM-5 includes Gender Dysphoria. Psychiatry considers that a real thing right next to some other things I think we can all agree are real. > History shows us that almost all expressions of gender are fluid. politely said: CITATION PLEASE

claudiawerner 4y ago

>This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _learn_ to want to be another gender. Did you really think this was going to be downvoted on Hacker News of all places?

spoils19 4y ago
The famously 'progressive' HackerNews? Years of reading the comments has led me to believe that the GPs assumption is mostly correct.
- claudiawerner 4y ago
  It could be my own bias, but I don't see HN as a particularly progressive place, at least as compared to, say, Reddit. Granted, it can be a good or a bad thing, but HN has a far wider spectrum of opinions that get upvoted; IME trans issues in particular dominate comment threads when it comes to LGBT issues.
  - spiralx 4y ago
    HN is probably the most right-wing social media site I use TBH, I'm amazed that this thread is still producing civil discussion.

Karawebnetwork 4y ago

According to Gallup's poll in early 2022, which they present as estimates, 0.7% of the US population is trans. In India, 0.6% people self-identified as hijra (Sahastrabuddhe et al., 2012). In the 2011 census in India, 0.04% answered with "Other" when asked to choose between "Male", "Female" and "Other". Canada included the question in their latest census and the result was 0.2%. In my opinion, a mandatory government census provides data that is more accurate than Gallup's phone poll. "The proportions of transgender and non-binary people were three to seven times higher for Generation Z (born between 1997 and 2006, 0.79%) and millennials (born between 1981 and 1996, 0.51%) than for Generation X (born between 1966 and 1980, 0.19%), baby boomers (born between 1946 and 1965, 0.15%) and the Interwar and Greatest Generations (born in 1945 or earlier, 0.12%)." Canada's government also adds this under their data comparability section: "Belgium (0.5% among people aged 18 to 75 in 2021) and New Zealand (0.5% among people aged 18 and older in 2020) have also published representative survey-based data on their transgender populations. Other countries have published 2021 data on transgender people using crowdsourcing and non-representative surveys, including Ireland (0.6% among people aged 18 and older), England and Wales (0.6% among people aged 16 and older), and the United States (0.8% among people aged 18 and older)." Being transgender is not a mental disorder or illness, but rather a natural variation of human diversity. Everyone has the right to express their gender identity in a way that is authentic and comfortable for them. I fail to see how the topic of a mass social media-induced illness applies here.

VictorPath 4y ago

> we can _learn_ to want to be another gender If that is true, then cookie cutter expected gender behavior can be "learned" as well. In fact much of it was illegal in the US a few decades ago.

totemandtoken 4y ago

>> This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _learn_ to want to be another gender. Except this was disproven. Dr. Money and David Rimer is the infamous case study I believe