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Tell HN: The ThinkPad X1 Carbon is an excellent MacBook replacement

135 points by hunterloftis 4y ago

If you would like to develop outside of the Apple ecosystem, find Windows clunky, and dislike fiddling with Linux to get it to work on arbitrary hardware, consider the X1 with Fedora. I bought one at the recent Black Friday sale: $1,700 for a 12 Gen i7-1280P, 32GB, 512GB SSD. I love this machine. https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadx1/thinkpad-x1-carbon-gen-10-(14-inch-intel)/21cbcto1wwus2 Physically, it's fantastic. Hats off to the engineers and designers for investing in the tactile experience. They made it lightweight but simultaneously substantial-feeling via rigidity and weight distribution. I now understand why Thinkpad keyboards are so well-regarded. Its trackpad matches Apple's, which is the highest praise I can give. The brilliant screen has an aspect ratio that's as good for building things as for consuming content. And battery life supports hours of binging netflix after compiling a bunch of code. I've been even more pleasantly surprised by the software experience. This is a Linux workstation that "just works." Close the lid, it goes on standby - open, and it resumes instantly. Plug it into a 100Mhz ultrawide monitor via a lightning cable, and not only does it seamlessly extend the desktop at native refresh rates, but it also mounts all the devices that are connected via the monitor's integrated USB hub. I'm able to log in via my bluetooth kinesis keyboard consistently, without hassle. Updates are fast, easy, and tested on the exact hardware I'm using. I've been using it as my daily driver for a week and I've yet to dive down a rabbit-hole of outdated forum advice to get something basic to work. Finally, and more subjectively, Fedora's out-of-the-box experience handily outshines both OSX and Windows. Window-snapping, global search, software installation via a package manager, resource efficiency, containerization support, configuration, etc. I wanted to share here for any others who have tried, and failed, to find a legitimately better-than-Macbook development machine for the past few years.

pengaru 4y ago
Why wouldn't you get one of the AMD ThinkPads? That i7-1280P only has 6 performance cores on "Intel 7", when the Ryzen 7 PRO 6850U as in the Gen3 X13 ThinkPad has 8 performance cores on "TSMC 6nm-FinFet".
- CameronNemo 4y ago
  * Deep suspend has been hit or miss on AMD thinkpads; you can check Lenovo forums. I'm actually not sure if Intel is any better, but it is something to consider. * Just because the node is slightly newer/better doesn't necessarily translate to overall better battery life. AFAIK 12th gen Intel is very competitive with even the newest AMD chips. * Possibly a price premium on the AMD models? I'm not sure. * The AMD models sometimes come with realtek WiFi chips with poor Linux support, so you might have to swap for a mediatek/qcom/Intel chip which is better supported. Extra 20 bucks and the hassle of having to pop it open. Also I think you might have to fiddle with the BIOS to disable the WiFi card whitelist, but I'm not sure on this specific thinkpad style/gen/model.
- hunterloftis 4y ago
  Because I wanted hardware that's already been tested end-to-end with not only linux in general, but the distro & version I'm using (Fedora 36). Using the same hardware that Lenovo ships with linux out-of-the-box, as well as the same hardware that Red Hat employees use, is worth more to me than a couple of extra performance cores. CPUs have been "fast enough" for my use cases for years.
pbsurf 4y ago
Excellent until the charging ports burn out, requiring a motherboard replacement: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-X-Series-Laptops/X1-Carbon-Gen-9-charging-issue/m-p/5127796 https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-X-Series-Laptops/X1-Ca...
- privacyking 4y ago
  Macbook M1s have the exact same problem (and have less ports), and good luck getting that fixed for any reasonable price.
encryptluks2 4y ago
You know what works as a MacBook replacement? Pretty much any laptop. I have yet to encounter a laptop that didn't run Arch Linux just fine.
mikece 4y ago
Can it drive a pair of 4K monitors? The only reason I've not bought one of the HP DevOne units -- https://hpdevone.com/ https://hpdevone.com/ -- is the lack of support to drive external 4K monitors.
- fsflover 4y ago
  Purism Librem 14 can.
- roland35 4y ago
  mine seems to drive both 4k monitors just fine! I use a Tunderbolt Caldigit dock. Windows 10
- goosedragons 4y ago
  Lenovo's tech specs for the Gen 10 Carbon say it's capable of driving 3 external monitors, 5K on the TB ports, 4K on HDMI. So dual 4K is doable.
- thefz 4y ago
  Usually if you check the CPU specs on the Intel website, the integrated graphics part in the details will tell you max resolution/refresh.
davidcollantes 4y ago
I can't speak for others, but for me it is 80% macOS (and its seamless synergy with everything Apple I own), and 20% hardware, what keeps me on Apple.
- Ken_At_EM 4y ago
  I like to say I go with the best operating system at the time. For most of my career that’s been macOS/X. There was a time when I felt like what Windows had going on with Windows 7 was much better than what Apple had going on and I spent a few years primarily using a PC. However, I’ve been back on Mac for years, and I feel like “advertisements in the start menu” indicates that Windows is going down a dark path. I do have to keep a second PC around to use Windows as a lot of our engineering software is Windows specific, but I do most everything on the Mac.
- eadz 4y ago
  For me it's more the hardware. I don't think AMD or Intel can compete at all with M1 Pro. The performance per watt is insane, and given the ML/AI thing has blown up recently, I'm happy to have the neural engine. The Apple screen is likely still much better ( colors, variable refresh rate ), the trackpad and it's integration.
  - idlehand 4y ago
    It's an interesting world we live in where Apple is the choice for performance. For years and years everyone talked about how Macs were underpowered compared to their price tag.
    - smoldesu 4y ago
      Not really. Apple Silicon has good battery life, but it's performance is actually fairly pathetic compared to last-gen x86 chips. Like, compare the M1 to the Ryzen 7 4800u, a chip that was like 9 months old when Apple Silicon hit shelves. Both processors have competitive single-core and multi-core performance, and the GPUs are even pretty close in terms of performance profile. The real kicker? AMD's chip put up competitive performance on TSMC's 7nm node, whereas Apple was fighting with 5nm. Honestly, if AMD had access to the same silicon Apple does, there probably wouldn't be any comparison. I'd argue their processes are half a generation ahead of Apple's designs.
Bud 4y ago
I set up and supported 200 X1 Carbons over the past few years. This is terribly inadequate as a MacBook replacement. It's noticeably slower than any Apple Silicon machine, it has terrible battery life, the screen has the same absurdly-wide aspect ratio common to so many PC laptops, which makes them useless for so much real work, and the heat management is a complete joke. Fan runs, loudly, if you even breathe on the machine. And of course, the trackpad is vastly inferior to Apple's.
- NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
  >the screen has the same absurdly-wide aspect ratio common to so many PC laptops I don't think that's right - pretty sure that the X1 Carbon has a 16:10 screen rather than the typical 16:9 one.
  - Bud 4y ago
    There are multiple X1 Carbon models. I Googled this and it looks like starting with the 9th-generation model, Lenovo finally got wise and switched from a 16:9 to 16:10. This is an improvement and I'm glad to see it, but I prefer the 14:9 aspect that's common on current Macs.
- wintersFright 4y ago
  I have two. I am sceptical you have used 200 in real life as your comments at FUD compared to my experience.
  - Bud 4y ago
    To repeat: I set up and supported 200 of these. For over two years. Mine were admittedly running Windows, so I'm glad you are having a good Linux experience, but I guess our opinions just differ. In an extreme fashion. To be fair, there were pluses: it's very light, they didn't break a lot unless users were stupid, the screen was good quality even though it has an incredibly terrible aspect ratio and isn't tall enough for real work, and the keyboard is good, like in all ThinkPads. So it's not all bad. But the heat issues and the terrible fan noise would be disqualifying for me.
christkv 4y ago
I’m really looking at the framework laptops as well for my next laptop. The ability to fix and upgrade it as well as what seems like good build quality is enticing.
- spiffytech 4y ago
  I got one last month and I'm very happy with it. Linux still has a a graphics issue with 12th-gen Intel, but the hardware has been great.
  - christkv 4y ago
    How’s the keyboard ?
    - spiffytech 4y ago
      It feels great to me. Nice and firm, with a tactile movement. It has all the right buttons in all the right places, except for Home/End/PgUp/PgDown being hidden behind the Fn key, as is unfortunately the trend these days.
zmz88 4y ago
I was thinking about getting one of these to replace my 6+ year old XPS 13. Did you compare this to the new XPS 13 Plus? It looks like for Linux laptops, these are pretty much the only two good options. How's the battery life?
- i_am_proteus 4y ago
  T14S and other Think Pads are also pretty good. I use a latest-generation T14S and get about eight hours running modest workloads on Fedora. ARM Macintosh Book has better battery life, but it does not run usefully run Linux (yet).
- hunterloftis 4y ago
  I did compare it to the XPS 13 - the XPS looked like a solid machine, but it felt a little cramped to me. I preferred the still-svelte-but-bigger 14" X1. Another consideration was having a company that cares about Linux running flawlessly, and Red Hat gives their employees Thinkpads. That dogfooding means that if I'm having a problem, it's likely some Red Hat employee is having the same problem, so it ought to be fixed soon :)
boppo1 4y ago
Is the keyboard as lovely as my x220 with xubuntu? Can I replace parts?
aborsy 4y ago
What is currently the best lightweight Linux laptop on market? I hear mixed reviews on System76 construction quality. I run Ubuntu or Fedora on my laptops and desktops. I was looking into MacBook Air, for battery life, weight and keyboard, but don’t want this MacOS black box. How is Linux on a MacBook Air?
- hawk_ 4y ago
  LG Gram series has a few light ones, have been using linux mint xfce4 on one for daily dev.
- ArcMex 4y ago
  Regarding Apple Silicon, last I checked Asahi Linux had made some significant strides but with drivers YMMV. Might be worth looking into if you’re serious about running Linux on Apple Silicon. As for Intel, I’m not too sure. About as mature as it’s been for a while now, I reckon.
- NateEag 4y ago
  The Framework isn't bad. I've had a few freezes on my recently-purchased 12th gen running NixOS, but I've juste applied the documented workarounds for the issue and am waiting to see if those resolve it. Other than that, it's been a surprisingly solid experience. Sleep on lid close, wake on open, Bluetooth just recognized my ear buds, fingerprint scanner just worked after I enabled it... not a bad setup.
- bakoo 4y ago
  > How is Linux on a MacBook Air? In my experience, older (pre-T2 and Apple silicon) models are relatively easy to get working. I'm currently running Linux Mint 21 on an Air 2017 that was excruciatingly slow when running mac OS, and it got a lot snappier on linux. The drive is still slow, and I'd love to replace it, but the adapter that supposedly lets you connect an M2 NVMe to that silly we're-so-so-special-and-you-can't-have-an-M2 port didn't work with the spare drive I had on hand. Oh, and due to restrictive licensing (on Apple or Broadcom's part) the wifi drivers and webcam firmware can't be included in the Mint installation media, so I had to bluetooth tether my mac to my phone to download and install the correct wifi drivers, and also had to download and install the webcam firmware manually.
benced 4y ago
I had one and quite liked it (gen 6 I think?). One caveat is that my E key broke and I swapped it. However, I noted the date and from the relative frequency of how often E is used (most common letter) vs A (second most common letter), I was able to accurately predict the month my A key would break. That’s… not great. Carbon is a great material though - apple needs to stop with aluminum.
dlevine 4y ago
Honestly, the X1 Carbon is a nice laptop. And even if you don't want to run Linux as your main OS, Windows 11 really isn't bad. With WSL2, you can use have all of the benefits of Linux for development while being able to run whatever Windows apps you want, and it really was pretty easy to setup. You can even run VS Code on Windows and edit files in your Linux container. I had a period last year and this year where I was consulting, and used my Ryzen Desktop as my main work machine. If I were looking to use something other than Macs (which I'm not), there are more good options now than there have ever been. Even though everything is still compared to the benchmark of Mac Laptops, which isn't an accident.
- ArcMex 4y ago
  Do you know of any use cases that WSL2 might be lacking for the average developer? Has there been any instance of you preferring a dedicated Linux box to WSL2?
  - veesahni 4y ago
    WSL2 runs a Linux VM via Hyper-V at close to native performance. However, it slows down if you do any type of cross-os file system communication. So you need an IDE that knows how to work around this (eg: VSCode with WSL2 plugin runs a server in the VM to avoid cross-os fs comm)
    - 0x53 4y ago
      This (and directly accessing my network card) is why I'm sad WSL1 is no longer being developed.
  - womod 4y ago
    WSL2 is for the most part totally usable for everyday development, but it does have a handful of issues that either need workarounds or are just infeasible. USB passthrough isn't yet supported, so it's necessary to make use of something like VirtualHere[1] or some another TCPIP tunneling daemon running on the windows depending on what you're trying to do. There seems to sometimes be issues with resuming from S0ix sleep where the VM process is still "running" but it gets stuck in a state where new processes just will not spawn. It's been a while since I messed with it, but my "solution" was disabling a VM security measure, launching Process Hacker 2 as admin, searching for "lxss" in the process list and terminating the corresponding svchost. The actual linux kernel running inside WSL2 is interesting, it's microsofts own custom kernel[2] with some magic sauce for making everything play nice. Unfortunately, it (still?) lacks a fully-functional SystemD so making some programs work can be a chore. Also all the kernel modules compiled in, and it doesn't allow loading them dynamically with modprobe. There are some alternative kernels out there that solve some of these issues, though I haven't bothered to try any since whenever I run into these sorts of issues it's less of a hassle to just switch to a dedicated linux box. For all of the issues that come with Windows 11, having WSLg make running graphical programs "just work" out of the box with rock-solid copy/paste, alt+tab, etc., really makes it a joy to work with. [1] - https://www.virtualhere.com/ https://www.virtualhere.com/ [2] - https://github.com/microsoft/WSL2-Linux-Kernel https://github.com/microsoft/WSL2-Linux-Kernel
vxNsr 4y ago
Does this support 2560x1440p@60Hz x3? Lenovo promised that their thinkpad 14s with the thinkpad thunderbolt 4 dock could do it, but the dock fails to actually consistently display all 3 monitors, with one irregularly flickering.
SamuelAdams 4y ago
Can you provide more details about these three things? - trackpad - your two sentences are very vague. Can you navigate with two fingers in a web browser? How is text selection? Or selecting a sentence out of a long paragraph, etc? In my experience nothing matches Apple in terms of precision and accuracy, but maybe Lenovo finally caught up recently. - screen: I use the built in display quite a lot. The color on a MacBook Pro is really nice. How does the Lenovo compare? - battery life: how many hours do you actually get? Your description is vauge and can be anything from 3 hours to 40 hours.
- deleted 4y ago
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- ditsuke 4y ago
  > - trackpad - your two sentences are very vague. Can you navigate with two fingers in a web browser? How is text selection? Or selecting a sentence out of a long paragraph, etc? In my experience nothing matches Apple in terms of precision and accuracy, but maybe Lenovo finally caught up recently. I use the LG Gram 2022. The trackpad is nothing short of Amazing on Linux -- everything you expect works 2/3/4 finger gestures, panning; the scrolling however can use some tuning on Gnome.
- jraph 4y ago
  I'm using the X1 Carbon Gen 9 with openSUSE Tumbleweed (Plasma) > Can you navigate with two fingers in a web browser? On Firefox, two fingers to the left does previous, two fingers to the right does next (if you are not in a horizontally scrollable area, in which case it scrolls). Two fingers to the top or the bottom scrolls (pixel perfect). Kinetic scroll works. Pinch to zoom works (at long last!! I think it started working a year ago or something). > How is text selection? Or selecting a sentence out of a long paragraph, etc? I select whatever I want to select with ease. I go to the first word I want to select, double-tap, move to the last word. The text autoscrolls if I go to an edge if it's a long chunk of text. Triple tap to select entire paragraphs. D&D works quite well too. I'm very happy with the precision with both my HP Elitebook 840 G6 and My Carbon X1. They both have a huge, reliable touchpad. I've never tried a Mac seriously though. > how many hours do you actually get? 10-11h if I pay attention. 6-7h easily. (i7 and 32G of RAM). I hope it will improve. The touchscreen on both machines is surprisingly usable and useful. Both machine are quiet, and they are totally silent if I'm just typing or browsing the web. The fans can spin up during a video call or compile something for a long time, but that can be prevented if needed by forcing the powersave mode using KDE's UI for this.
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gryf 4y ago
There is no such thing as a macbook replacement at the moment IMHO. There is literally nothing with the same quality, battery life, thermals, audio, display, keyboard and reliability on the market. Not even the most expensive machines can get anywhere near even an M1 MacBook Air on this front. The M1 MBP destroys everything else. I develop software on it no problems at all. We are way past targeting one platform. Linux can be the destination for sure but like hell I'm going to do the dev work on it. Years of attempting to run Linux on a laptop or desktop have left a very unpleasant flavour in my mouth. It might work today but it probably won't tomorrow and I'm getting too old to waste my time futzing. It has to work right now, properly, today with no risks. Note: I have a mandated Dell Precision 7670 for some work, one of the most ridiculously stupid computers ever made and far more expensive in this config than a high end MBP M1 Max and it's absolutely a pile of shit from a hardware and software perspective. If you ran Linux on it, it'd be worse than if it ran windows on it, which is already terrible.
- qumpis 4y ago
  You say, talking about Linux: "It might work today but it probably won't tomorrow". Can you elaborate?
  - gryf 4y ago
    I've had 20 years of anxiety about closing the lid, hibernating, sleeping. Numerous working configurations became non working configurations after kernel updates and distribution upgrades. And that doesn't include some of the problems with the desktop software I've had. On the server, zero hassle.
    - taxyz 4y ago
      Came here to echo this sentiment. I even bought from a specialized Linux laptop retailer hoping that the hardware would have been selected because of its Linux compatibility; either an upgrade from Ubuntu 20 to 22 or a kernel upgrade or an nvidia update broke my ability to close the lid and trigger suspend. I tried everything, dove semi-deep into systemd settings, spent hours online and pouring through logs and journald and forums and bug reports. Tried rolling back versions of damn near everything only to then break things I had installed after other upgrades. I tried doing some half-assed custom shell scripts that felt janky. After several nights of losing all my free time after work only to wake up the next morning to a dead laptop battery, I treated myself to an m2 13” mbp. No ragrets.
jonaf 4y ago
I purchased the ThinkPad P1 mobile workstation in 2018. It's a great machine but it's about as loud as a vacuum cleaner.
- ArcMex 4y ago
  I’ve eyed the P series for years but ever since I got a MacBook Air, I have come to expect my machines to be silent.
jmclnx 4y ago
Lets see: > Integrated Intel® Iris® Xe Graphics No Nvidia, nice, may work with OpenBSD > 8 GB LPDDR5-6400MHz (Soldered) Why Soldered Memory, not good. And who sells 8gb memory with a serious look :) > 256 GB SSD M.2 2280 PCIe TLC Opal Fine by me > Intel® Wi-Fi 6E AX211 2x2 AX vPro® & Bluetooth® 5.1 Should be fine > 14" WUXGA (1920 x 1200) Edit, not bad I think - seems even better than 16:9, more vertical resolution, nice. All in all, sorry, I will pass due to the Soldered Memory. But looks like a nice machine that could be used with a BSD
- nicolaslem 4y ago
  > Why Soldered Memory, not good. LPDDR5 does not exist in DIMM for technical reasons. Laptops with discrete RAM sticks use slower and more power hungry regular DDR5. There are pros and cons both ways.
- richbell 4y ago
  > All in all, sorry, I will pass due to the Soldered Memory The specs are configurable, OP just linked to a specific configuration. Though the soldered memory is an unfortunate compromise to the conventional ThinkPad experience.
  - CameronNemo 4y ago
    I don't think that any configuration has SO-DIMM RAM, you need to go to the T series for that.
    - gabrielhidasy 4y ago
      But some have enough memory that you would probably not miss the SO-DIMMs, I mean, do you have a workload needing more than 32GB that you would run in the notebook (with the limited CPU and thermal constraints)? But just 8GB in a non-upgradeable package is not for me.
    - deleted 4y ago
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    - 4y ago
postit 4y ago
A long time linux user, turned to mac user, back to linux and now back to mac again disagrees with you. The amount of time and energy I had spend fixing silly problems and integrations could've be better used somewhere. In contrast with mac, I open it and do work and close it knowing it won't explode next time I open it.
- sofixa 4y ago
  The thing is though, when there is an issue on macOS (like it complaining a USB peripheral is using too much power and it has been suspended, of course without saying which USB peripheral, or the iPad you want to extend your screen to not showing), there's usually not much you can do. The OS is pretty closed down, very specific and the majority of materials online are on the "try turning it off and on again" level. With Linux distros there might be more to debug, but at least you can debug. PS: If anyone has any ideas about my USB device, I'm all ears. A colleague advised the system report from the Apple menu, but it's a snapshot in time, so useless for my problem.
- fsflover 4y ago
  I downvoted you, because your comment doesn't bring anything to the conversation. Vague "silly problems" occur on every device, even on my microwave.
  - postit 4y ago
    Just because you downvoted my comment doesn't mean it's not valid. Downvotes are a subjective measure of agreement and they do not necessarily reflect the accuracy or usefulness of a comment. Others may find value in my personal experience with Linux and Mac, and it's not up to you to decide whether my comment is relevant or not. While it's true that every device can have problems, my experience with Linux was that the problems I encountered were frequent and time-consuming to fix. In contrast, my experience with Mac has been much smoother and I have had fewer issues to deal with.
    - fsflover 4y ago
      > Others may find value in my personal experience with Linux and Mac I don't see how "Linux bad, Mac good" experience would help anyone without providing any specific details. There are already millions of such "experiences" on the Internet. By the way, I have the opposite experience. Also, you again provided no value with your comment and it's not just my subjective opinion, it's a fact. Your both comments look like ChatGPT.
sys_64738 4y ago
My criteria for a laptop are: must be totally silent with no loud fans, very long battery life, must not overheat. Usually that rules out any Intel laptop.
ergonaught 4y ago
I've been using the X1 Carbon for my Linux laptops for at least six years (4th Generation), and mostly love it.
kitsunesoba 4y ago
I own a first gen ThinkPad X1 Nano and while it's a great laptop in many regards (super lightweight and tiny, great screen, has support for proper S3 sleep, and generally good in respects that x86 laptops often aren't), its CPU undermines it entirely. Even though it's built with the lowest spec Tiger Lake CPU that was offered at that point in time, it can't keep its fan off doing anything more intensive than web browsing. Even plugging in a rather pedestrian 2560x1440 60hz monitor is enough to keep its fan running. The CPU also sucks more power than it should given its performance, even in "Power Saving" mode under Windows 10/11 and Fedora. I wish so much that in place of its Intel CPU there was an M1. That alone would increase its appeal dramatically. The ARM-based Thinkpads Lenovo now offers are a nice step in that direction but sadly their performance trails far enough behind the two year old M1 that it isn't an ace in the hole either. Honestly depending on how things go I might just trade the Nano in for an Air at some point and do Windows Things™ through a Parallels VM running Windows for ARM or even just an RDP session to my custom build tower.
- goosedragons 4y ago
  Maybe give one of the AMD versions a try if you can? My P14s Gen 2 AMD with a Ryzen 5 5650U has been very quiet even running multiple monitors, temps have been low generally in mid-30s/low 40s unless I really push it. Supports S3 sleep too.
  - kitsunesoba 4y ago
    Yeah, maybe. The main issue there is that I was buying for it specifically being a good laptop, with portability taking a front seat, without gimmicks that add fragility like a hybrid hinge. The X1 Nano (aside from CPU) excels at this, whereas P series for example makes compromises for better power, which I don't need. If I want power my well cooled 5950X/3080Ti tower offers that in quantities far greater than any laptop could deliver. X1 series is sadly Intel exclusive though, with the closest thing with AMD being X13, but that isn't quite the same. There's also the Z series but those are weird to say the least and decidedly "un-thinkpaddish". Might just have to settle for X13.
- Eldandan 4y ago
midrus 4y ago
I’ve used thinkpads (and the X1 in particular) for many years. And I do think they’re the best option you have outside of the apple ecosystem. But they are far, far, far of being an excellent replacement for MacBooks. Specially after the new Apple silicon has shown up. The deep OS integration, power saving, performance, seamless upgrades of OS, build materials quality, trackpad, audio quality, etc, etc is far ahead on MacBooks. But I do agree they are the best option if you hate or can’t pay or aren’t allowed to use apple products.
spullara 4y ago
The M1 has completely and utterly outclassed Intel/AMD and there is no way I would buy one now except for games and ML workloads that need NVIDIA cards.
- hunterloftis 4y ago
  I agree the M1 is great hardware. However, the feeling of speed is made up of much more than just the hardware's capabilities. The OS you use, the toolchain you have access to, impacts your experience as well. This X1 matches 92% of a 2022 MB Air's single-core performance and 94% of its multi-core performance (https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/19092431 https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/19092431). I'm happy to wait an extra 100ms for something to compile in order to have a nicer daily experience of the machine and operating system.
  - spullara 4y ago
    And 0% of its silence while doing all that. Also, I would check real benchmarks. I have seen much bigger differences.
    - Brian_K_White 4y ago
      m1/m2 performance is only great while you live within it's limits. It's all special optimization tricks in hardware to match up with certain common software operations. Great if your usage pattern matches. It's almost like when hardware has special bits that make benchmarks scream because they know exactly what the benchmark software does, yet normal work is the same or worse than anyone else. It's not exactly that bad. M1/M2 does perform a lot of real work a lot better. But it's "a bit like that" It's just that it only works if your usage matches what Apple targeted as what most people will ever need to do.
gigatexal 4y ago
I have a Lenovo p14s. I got it from work. I love it. I came from a 2020 MacBook Pro. I’ll never ever go back to MacOS. I love my thinkpad and fedora too much.
nnoitra 4y ago
mandeepj 4y ago
borland 4y ago
Why are there ads on HN now?
- hunterloftis 4y ago
  There are regular HN threads discussing good development machines, especially from people hoping to find an OSS alternative to MS, Google, & Apple walled gardens. The hardware & operating system used for building products is a discussion relevant to many of us here.
gtvwill 4y ago
elgar1212 4y ago
I've been considering moving from a mbp to an x1 for a while now, but a couple things are keeping me from it: - mbp isn't dead (yet) - x1 is made in china, human rights issues - x1 is less repairable than other thinkpad models such as t14 or p14 (which are still made in china, however) - now there is linux support for mbp for dual booting
- nequo 4y ago
  Isn’t the MacBook Pro also manufactured in China?
  - elgar1212 4y ago
    Yes, but I got it several years ago and wasn't as concerned about China at the time Future gens of mbp might not be made in China (but afaik they still are)
- sva_ 4y ago
  > x1 is made in china, human rights issues I was under the impression that most MBP are made in China?
  - elgar1212 4y ago
    > I was under the impression that most MBP are made in China? afaik they all are, but this was a purchase from several years ago
    - deleted 4y ago
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- akvadrako 4y ago
  You might be okay with laptops from Taiwan instead of mainland China, for example ASUS. They have nicer laptops than Lenovo too.
  - 4y ago
therealmarv 4y ago
Found recently a no go for me against Linux on desktop (it's important for my workflows): HDR, wider color space (P3 etc) + color management for all that things are not really supported in current Wayland desktops. https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/14 https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/m... It will probably change next year (and the desktop software like players etc. need to catch up too) but monitors supporting these standards are existing for many years now. There is only Mac and Windows (Windows is even better with broader HW support actually) in this niche.
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  Color management still has major issues on Windows too. For a while I was running a calibrated profile on my Windows desktop and it doesn't consistently apply to every app, and you need to use a third party daemon to periodically reload the profile to make sure that the apps that can use it actually do. It's a mess.
wtf77 4y ago
I have tried several non-apple systems with windows or Linux. No, sorry, but unless you want to go crazy behind the PC and/or operating system Apple wins hands down.
kitplummer 4y ago
I like my Framework with Ubuntu. Wish it wasn't Ubuntu but everything works.
- timbit42 4y ago
  Why can't you use Linux Mint which is based on Ubuntu?
thefz 4y ago
So far I am impressed at the quality of my X1 Yoga Gen.6. The least bullshit, most work oriented machine I've ever had.
caycep 4y ago
Granted, I feel they've been slacking on the (previously) legendary T series models, sadly...screen/trackpad suck and the chassis flexes
kristianp 4y ago
I have an X1 gen 6 and I love it. Keyboard keys don't have the nice click to them like a mac or surface, it's more of a mushy feel. However thinkpads do have pgup, pgdn, home and end buttons which is a big plus if you learnt to type on a pc desktop. -Recent X1s have switched to a higher TDP Intel processor (p instead of u series?), so I imagine performance has improved at the expense of more fan noise. - I went with the matt 2k screen, which doesn't have the brightness of a macbook screen. Thinkpads are often up to 30% off on lenovos website, but it seems that they don't discount the configurable options any more, which rules out getting a good price for a 32GB config.
- hunterloftis 4y ago
  > Thinkpads are often up to 30% off on lenovos website, but it seems that they don't discount the configurable options any more, which rules out getting a good price for a 32GB config. Just to clarify here, I got a 32GB model at 51% off (that "sale" is now at 49%).
  - kristianp 4y ago
    That's cool. Is that for an X1 Carbon or something else?
    - hunterloftis 4y ago
      Yep, for the 10th gen X1 Carbon
jll29 4y ago
I'm using an Apple MacBook Air M1 (2020) with 16 GB RAM and 1 TB SSD and a Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Carbon with 16 GB RAM and 1 TB SSD at the same time. As an intense power user, I care less about budget and more about the quality of the machine I use. I ordered myself the MacBook at work and privately purchased the X1 to put Ubuntu Linux on it (curious about the M1 and having had a great experience with each of a range of past ThinkPads - X61s, X220, X230, T41). Both machines are very light, and not very rugged (for ruggedness, go for a Dell Latitude E6400 XFR or E7450). Both fell one time each, the X1 had no visible marks, but the MacBook Air now has a visible dent just above the logo. Thankfully, both machines remain fully operable. The X1 is great for Linux, and that's my preferred platform. I'm biased towards that because it's not proprietary, but not out of purely ideological reasons, I just want to make sure the platform continues to exist. Thankfully, the Mac also has a Unix under the hood, alas often things are in weird locations or not installed at all, so I feel less "at home" on MacOS X. Also, having been a dual Linux/Mac OS X user since 2008, I find the usability of Mac OS is decaying - many things are hidden in non-obvious places. For example, it's not helpful if scrollbars are hidden and you have to exactly hover over where they ought to be in order to make them visible first - when you are on a call and need to pull up some data quickly, this is distracting. The Mac has longer battery life, and is often superior when discovering a WiFi network nearby; it's audio also works flawlessly. In contrast, on the X1 under Linux, occasionally the headset plugged in isn't instantly recognized without some fiddling. Both machines are very fast, with the M1 being without equal. I notice it mostly when installing/updating new software, as heavy compute jobs are usually done on clusters or in the cloud nowadays. I end up using the Mac mostly for e-mail, making slides and going on Zoom calls, whereas any development work tends to happen more on the X1. Neither is a perfect machine. I'd love to have a Mac with a proper keyboard, or a ThinkPad with an M1 chip, and the former would be more of an improvement than the latter because CPU speed isn't the bottleneck for my laptop usage profile. For the time being, I shall continue to carry two laptops.
ThePhysicist 4y ago
I'm using both a 16'' Macbook Pro (M1) and a 14' Lenovo T14 (Gen 3), the former mostly for work and the latter for personal computing using Linux (Kubuntu). Both machines are great, the new T14 was the first laptop I was happy to replace my T460p with. I tried a few of the earlier Lenovo models but they were terrible and hardly offered any performance improvements over my 5 year old model. The Macbook is of course an amazing device, build quality is great and if you're a fan of MacOS it's the perfect machine. It has a humongous battery as well (almost 100 Wh I think), which really gives it an edge over the T14 (50 Wh), especially since the base power draw is lower (7W vs. 11 W), which itself is ridiculous given the larger screen size. That said the T14 is the perfect Linux machine, everything works out of the box without issues, even the touchscreen and the fingerprint reader. There is still a minor issue when suspending/waking up (touchpad reactivity will degrade), but I hope there will be a fix soon.
hnbear 4y ago
In a previous role at a Macbook only shop one team requiring linux machines got X1 Carbons as they best linux machine generally available and easily supportable. Through a roughly 5 year period of trying various models they were consistently pretty reliable, and very easy to run Debian or Ubuntu on (our standard linux OS), through multiple OS versions too. The screens and trackpads definitely weren't Apple quality. Not bad, but switching between my Carbon and my Macbook was pretty jarring. That said, it paired up immediately with my Logitech mouse (MX Master) that I got for it, and it was easy to get the driver to show things like mouse battery in the linux menubar, something macOS won't do for you. Generally everything just worked out of the box, including things like USB-C charging, which was great to share chargers with the Macbooks. The biggest issue we consistently faced was TPM support. At least once a year a kernel upgrade would totally bork a couple of machines as the TPM got reset of corrupted, meaning the machines would need to be wiped and rebuilt. After the first people would update and get broken we'd just warn the team to be careful around those updates.
jonahbenton 4y ago
The larger P series from Lenovo are also excellent, have 4k screens, and run Fedora flawlessly. They also have next day onsite warranty support which actually works. The hardware is definitely not Apple level, but it's good, and for those of us for whom Apple software/ecosystem for various reasons are not a fit, the combination of Fedora and Thinkpad is something to be grateful for. As much as I support the motivation behind System76 and Framework- and I own products from both- the quality is not (yet) professional tier. Fedora + Thinkpad is.
qubitcoder 4y ago
Unfortunately, while I loved and used ThinkPads for many years, the lack of a 4k or similar hi-DPI screen immediately makes this a non-starter. As does the pitifully poor brightness and color coverage. I’ve never understood how developers could work on a low quality screen after seeing (or using) the first MacBook Pro with a “retina” screen. That’s not to mention the performance and heating issues that plague every high-end Windows laptop (i.e. the Dell offers 4k screens and above, such as the XPS 17”, but they suffer from thermal issues, suspend issues, and atrocious sound—not to mention being heavy and cumbersome). Speaking from experience, having used Linux on a laptop as a primary development machine on-and-off for years, you’ll spend many hours of your life trying to fix trackpad issues, suspend and hibernate problems, fan issues, graphic driver hell, boot issues after kernel upgrades, Bluetooth and Wi-Fi “quirks”, etc. And that’s on Dell’s XPS line, not some oddball laptop. Let me know when there’s a manufacturer that produces laptops with Apple’s XDR screen quality, similar performance, thermals, sound, build quality, reliability, etc., and with the ability to run Linux natively. Competition would be fantastic. Realistically, I don’t see it happening anytime soon. I do, however, miss the keyboard and “nub”.
poisonborz 4y ago
I'm happy that OP is happy, but he points out to the most highly regarded model of the most beloved non-Apple laptop brand as a great alternative... And while X series Thinkpads are solid workhorses with reliable warranty, this is not true. I'm not even talking about that Lenovo/the whole segment still doesn't have a competitor for the original M1 with battery life/performance. But due to old rotten deals they are only offered with Intel CPUs that have terrible thermals, throttling, and have shaky Arc GPU drivers. I can't even choose them with the better AMD options out of the already uncompetitive x86 options. There are other lines like the Yoga 7 Gen 7 (that is more aimed at the macbook crowd) but those lack the business features that would put them somewhat in line with value. Most serious non-Apple laptop makers are in a Catch-22 with their lucrative Intel exclusivity contracts.
yellow_lead 4y ago
I wish they had one with the i9 and no Nvidia card.
tomjen3 4y ago
Does the fingerprint reader work? How long does the battery last? Using Ubuntu, does hibernation work? As a final tip, the touchpad might be good, but imho the real benefit of the thinkpad line is the TrackPoint. You can do basic mousing without moving your hands.
- hunterloftis 4y ago
  I don't know if the fingerprint reader works - I don't like them, so haven't tried to set it up (it's integrated into the power button, which of course does work). I haven't spent more than 8-10 hours off of a charger, so I don't know what the death point is for the battery. At least a full day working & streaming. I use Fedora, not Ubuntu, so I can't speak to Ubuntu's hibernation. Power management works seamlessly on Fedora: connecting/disconnecting battery, opening/closing lid when connecting/not, timing out to sleep, awaking on keypress or lid open, etc etc. All the annoying combinations that, previously, I've had issues with on Linux devices. Thanks for the trackpoint tip! I do want to try to acclimate to it because that sounds like a nice workflow. It's hard to break muscle memory, though.
cm277 4y ago
I've used Thinkpads exclusively for >20 years, last ~10 all X1s. I am typing this on an X1C Gen10 as well. It's an OK machine, but unless something shifts spectacularly, it will be my last Thinkpad: it runs hot, even with the fan on (I dont code anymore; this is just standard Office workload), its battery is ridiculous for 2022 (~6-7hrs in practice even with battery saver turned on) and it's glitchy (which granted may be Windows 11). At the end of the day, I can excuse all of these if a) it wasnt a nearly $3k machine (!), b) that Macbooks didnt exist. And with me so will probably go my company's fleet as well. Thinkpads are still the best corporate series I've seen (including Macbooks) but the value for money just isnt there any more: what's the point of squeezing out depreciation as far as you can when you are starting at 2x the price/benefit?
heywoodlh 4y ago
I am glad for those that have found machines and operating systems that work for them. For myself, I also prefer a solid Linux (NixOS) workstation over anything else. I also really like the M1 Macbook hardware a lot and think that's a sweet experience! One thing of interest that I am noticing in the comments is certain comments coming off as "absolute truth" in regard to the experience with their preferred OS and hardware vs a less preferred alternative. I find it useful to chill out and realize that everyone will find things they like more about the OS and ecosystem they have chosen. All OS-es have awesome strengths and frustrating weaknesses and I find it annoying when anyone tries to argue otherwise. Let people enjoy their chosen paradise!
rcarmo 4y ago
Related: my take on the X1 Yoga (not Carbon), similar configuration: https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2022/12/03/1600 https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2022/12/03/1600 Nice, but not world-shattering. Also noisy. Would not use it instead of a MacBook Air, let alone a Pro.
nivertech 4y ago
> Plug it into a 100Mhz ultrawide monitor via a lightning cable, and not only does it seamlessly extend the desktop at native refresh rates, but it also mounts all the devices that are connected via the monitor's integrated USB hub. @hunterloftis what ultrawide monitor do you use? I own an X1 Carbon Gen 10, i7-1260P, 2TB, 32GB RAM with OLED screen and WWAN modem with Ubuntu 22.04. The webcam and the WWAN modem are still not supported under Linux. I want to buy a Lenovo ThinkVision P40w-20 5K ultrawide monitor, but after googling I see that many people having problem with Ubuntu 22.04/Wayland. Maybe it's working with Fedora, but not with Ubuntu? What's the resolution of your UW monitor, and does the Intel integrated graphics fast enough for it?
- hunterloftis 4y ago
  @nivertech I use the Samsung c34j74x: https://displaysolutions.samsung.com/monitor/detail/1280/C34J79 https://displaysolutions.samsung.com/monitor/detail/1280/C34... It's 3440x1440, and yes the Intel driver under Fedora drives it flicker-free at 100 Hz.
luis2527 4y ago
Compared to the MB, the fan is loud. I even stated writing my own fan control, but it can't fix the fan that's either definitely audible at 4500RPM or dead silent at 0RPM (which is not sustainable even for very light workloads on Linux). Here's the script: https://github.com/luisgerhorst/fancontrol-tpx1c9 https://github.com/luisgerhorst/fancontrol-tpx1c9
- luis2527 4y ago
  The solution I settled with was to use a 2m Thunderbolt cable to move the thing away from my desk. In an office environment this works, but in quiet rooms it may not.
not_me_ever 4y ago
I own the 16", i9 (>$5000) version of this, and I must say: a) It's one of the best PC notebooks I ever owned. b) It's a piece of crap. The keyboard is very (VERY!) wonky, got two replacements, it's systemic. The touchpad dies every 2-3 weeks, Lenovo service has been great, getting me a new one within 2-3 days every time, I gave up on replacing it after two months, and just use ... sorry ... a magic trackpad. The middle of it started bubbling up about 3 months in - leaving about a 3-5mm gap when closing the lid. Not that the lid ever closed tightly anyway. Don't even get my started on battery life. It doesn't exist. Switched from using Fedora to PopOS. Which - for me - is an even better experience. And just to be clear: It's the hardware that's crap, not the software. And: I have been a ThinkPad user for the last 30 years. Still have my 700C, and all the models inbetween.
- sagarm 4y ago
  Sure your battery isn't swelling? The poor battery life and fact that the middle is bubbling...
- hunterloftis 4y ago
  That sounds rough! I would probably look into getting a full replacement (possibly with a different model) from Lenovo, given such persistent "lemon" issues.
wereallterrrist 4y ago
Lenovo has the absolute worst bioses of any laptops I've ever bought. None have LVFS/fwupdmgr support. My most recent one, bought from newegg, appears to be a limited mainline-china-only release that hasnt received A SINGLE BIOS UPDATE despite there being numerous high-sev platform updates for every other device in my arsenal. Neither would let me re-enable S3. Again, unlike my other devices, the Lenovos become almost useless if the internal display breaks. They require intervention on boot (internal disp only) if you use an unofficial power supply. This isnt even counting battery life, the M1 performance, trackpad quality, trackpad click mechanism, trackpad size, on and on, etc. Keyboard deck flex. The list goes on. Complete stockholm syndrome vibes.
nathants 4y ago
i have this laptop and am also very satisifed. zero issues. i run a minimal dev setup[1]. there is a simpsons episode where homer designs a car. it has a lot of cup holders and is very expensive. this is a lot like macos, and even more like the linux setups people struggle to get to work after migrating off mac. architectural tip: fewer cupholders. 1. https://github.com/nathants/alpine-setup https://github.com/nathants/alpine-setup

135 points by hunterloftis 4y ago

pengaru 4y ago

Why wouldn't you get one of the AMD ThinkPads? That i7-1280P only has 6 performance cores on "Intel 7", when the Ryzen 7 PRO 6850U as in the Gen3 X13 ThinkPad has 8 performance cores on "TSMC 6nm-FinFet".

CameronNemo 4y ago
* Deep suspend has been hit or miss on AMD thinkpads; you can check Lenovo forums. I'm actually not sure if Intel is any better, but it is something to consider. * Just because the node is slightly newer/better doesn't necessarily translate to overall better battery life. AFAIK 12th gen Intel is very competitive with even the newest AMD chips. * Possibly a price premium on the AMD models? I'm not sure. * The AMD models sometimes come with realtek WiFi chips with poor Linux support, so you might have to swap for a mediatek/qcom/Intel chip which is better supported. Extra 20 bucks and the hassle of having to pop it open. Also I think you might have to fiddle with the BIOS to disable the WiFi card whitelist, but I'm not sure on this specific thinkpad style/gen/model.
hunterloftis 4y ago
Because I wanted hardware that's already been tested end-to-end with not only linux in general, but the distro & version I'm using (Fedora 36). Using the same hardware that Lenovo ships with linux out-of-the-box, as well as the same hardware that Red Hat employees use, is worth more to me than a couple of extra performance cores. CPUs have been "fast enough" for my use cases for years.

pbsurf 4y ago

Excellent until the charging ports burn out, requiring a motherboard replacement: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-X-Series-Laptops/X1-Carbon-Gen-9-charging-issue/m-p/5127796 https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-X-Series-Laptops/X1-Ca...

privacyking 4y ago
Macbook M1s have the exact same problem (and have less ports), and good luck getting that fixed for any reasonable price.

encryptluks2 4y ago

You know what works as a MacBook replacement? Pretty much any laptop. I have yet to encounter a laptop that didn't run Arch Linux just fine.

mikece 4y ago

Can it drive a pair of 4K monitors? The only reason I've not bought one of the HP DevOne units -- https://hpdevone.com/ https://hpdevone.com/ -- is the lack of support to drive external 4K monitors.

fsflover 4y ago
Purism Librem 14 can.
roland35 4y ago
mine seems to drive both 4k monitors just fine! I use a Tunderbolt Caldigit dock. Windows 10
goosedragons 4y ago
Lenovo's tech specs for the Gen 10 Carbon say it's capable of driving 3 external monitors, 5K on the TB ports, 4K on HDMI. So dual 4K is doable.
thefz 4y ago
Usually if you check the CPU specs on the Intel website, the integrated graphics part in the details will tell you max resolution/refresh.

davidcollantes 4y ago

I can't speak for others, but for me it is 80% macOS (and its seamless synergy with everything Apple I own), and 20% hardware, what keeps me on Apple.

Ken_At_EM 4y ago
I like to say I go with the best operating system at the time. For most of my career that’s been macOS/X. There was a time when I felt like what Windows had going on with Windows 7 was much better than what Apple had going on and I spent a few years primarily using a PC. However, I’ve been back on Mac for years, and I feel like “advertisements in the start menu” indicates that Windows is going down a dark path. I do have to keep a second PC around to use Windows as a lot of our engineering software is Windows specific, but I do most everything on the Mac.
eadz 4y ago
For me it's more the hardware. I don't think AMD or Intel can compete at all with M1 Pro. The performance per watt is insane, and given the ML/AI thing has blown up recently, I'm happy to have the neural engine. The Apple screen is likely still much better ( colors, variable refresh rate ), the trackpad and it's integration.
- idlehand 4y ago
  It's an interesting world we live in where Apple is the choice for performance. For years and years everyone talked about how Macs were underpowered compared to their price tag.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    Not really. Apple Silicon has good battery life, but it's performance is actually fairly pathetic compared to last-gen x86 chips. Like, compare the M1 to the Ryzen 7 4800u, a chip that was like 9 months old when Apple Silicon hit shelves. Both processors have competitive single-core and multi-core performance, and the GPUs are even pretty close in terms of performance profile. The real kicker? AMD's chip put up competitive performance on TSMC's 7nm node, whereas Apple was fighting with 5nm. Honestly, if AMD had access to the same silicon Apple does, there probably wouldn't be any comparison. I'd argue their processes are half a generation ahead of Apple's designs.

Bud 4y ago

I set up and supported 200 X1 Carbons over the past few years. This is terribly inadequate as a MacBook replacement. It's noticeably slower than any Apple Silicon machine, it has terrible battery life, the screen has the same absurdly-wide aspect ratio common to so many PC laptops, which makes them useless for so much real work, and the heat management is a complete joke. Fan runs, loudly, if you even breathe on the machine. And of course, the trackpad is vastly inferior to Apple's.

NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
>the screen has the same absurdly-wide aspect ratio common to so many PC laptops I don't think that's right - pretty sure that the X1 Carbon has a 16:10 screen rather than the typical 16:9 one.
- Bud 4y ago
  There are multiple X1 Carbon models. I Googled this and it looks like starting with the 9th-generation model, Lenovo finally got wise and switched from a 16:9 to 16:10. This is an improvement and I'm glad to see it, but I prefer the 14:9 aspect that's common on current Macs.
wintersFright 4y ago
I have two. I am sceptical you have used 200 in real life as your comments at FUD compared to my experience.
- Bud 4y ago
  To repeat: I set up and supported 200 of these. For over two years. Mine were admittedly running Windows, so I'm glad you are having a good Linux experience, but I guess our opinions just differ. In an extreme fashion. To be fair, there were pluses: it's very light, they didn't break a lot unless users were stupid, the screen was good quality even though it has an incredibly terrible aspect ratio and isn't tall enough for real work, and the keyboard is good, like in all ThinkPads. So it's not all bad. But the heat issues and the terrible fan noise would be disqualifying for me.

christkv 4y ago

I’m really looking at the framework laptops as well for my next laptop. The ability to fix and upgrade it as well as what seems like good build quality is enticing.

spiffytech 4y ago
I got one last month and I'm very happy with it. Linux still has a a graphics issue with 12th-gen Intel, but the hardware has been great.
- christkv 4y ago
  How’s the keyboard ?
  - spiffytech 4y ago
    It feels great to me. Nice and firm, with a tactile movement. It has all the right buttons in all the right places, except for Home/End/PgUp/PgDown being hidden behind the Fn key, as is unfortunately the trend these days.

zmz88 4y ago

I was thinking about getting one of these to replace my 6+ year old XPS 13. Did you compare this to the new XPS 13 Plus? It looks like for Linux laptops, these are pretty much the only two good options. How's the battery life?

i_am_proteus 4y ago
T14S and other Think Pads are also pretty good. I use a latest-generation T14S and get about eight hours running modest workloads on Fedora. ARM Macintosh Book has better battery life, but it does not run usefully run Linux (yet).
hunterloftis 4y ago
I did compare it to the XPS 13 - the XPS looked like a solid machine, but it felt a little cramped to me. I preferred the still-svelte-but-bigger 14" X1. Another consideration was having a company that cares about Linux running flawlessly, and Red Hat gives their employees Thinkpads. That dogfooding means that if I'm having a problem, it's likely some Red Hat employee is having the same problem, so it ought to be fixed soon :)

boppo1 4y ago

Is the keyboard as lovely as my x220 with xubuntu? Can I replace parts?

aborsy 4y ago

What is currently the best lightweight Linux laptop on market? I hear mixed reviews on System76 construction quality. I run Ubuntu or Fedora on my laptops and desktops. I was looking into MacBook Air, for battery life, weight and keyboard, but don’t want this MacOS black box. How is Linux on a MacBook Air?

hawk_ 4y ago
LG Gram series has a few light ones, have been using linux mint xfce4 on one for daily dev.
ArcMex 4y ago
Regarding Apple Silicon, last I checked Asahi Linux had made some significant strides but with drivers YMMV. Might be worth looking into if you’re serious about running Linux on Apple Silicon. As for Intel, I’m not too sure. About as mature as it’s been for a while now, I reckon.
NateEag 4y ago
The Framework isn't bad. I've had a few freezes on my recently-purchased 12th gen running NixOS, but I've juste applied the documented workarounds for the issue and am waiting to see if those resolve it. Other than that, it's been a surprisingly solid experience. Sleep on lid close, wake on open, Bluetooth just recognized my ear buds, fingerprint scanner just worked after I enabled it... not a bad setup.
bakoo 4y ago
> How is Linux on a MacBook Air? In my experience, older (pre-T2 and Apple silicon) models are relatively easy to get working. I'm currently running Linux Mint 21 on an Air 2017 that was excruciatingly slow when running mac OS, and it got a lot snappier on linux. The drive is still slow, and I'd love to replace it, but the adapter that supposedly lets you connect an M2 NVMe to that silly we're-so-so-special-and-you-can't-have-an-M2 port didn't work with the spare drive I had on hand. Oh, and due to restrictive licensing (on Apple or Broadcom's part) the wifi drivers and webcam firmware can't be included in the Mint installation media, so I had to bluetooth tether my mac to my phone to download and install the correct wifi drivers, and also had to download and install the webcam firmware manually.

benced 4y ago

I had one and quite liked it (gen 6 I think?). One caveat is that my E key broke and I swapped it. However, I noted the date and from the relative frequency of how often E is used (most common letter) vs A (second most common letter), I was able to accurately predict the month my A key would break. That’s… not great. Carbon is a great material though - apple needs to stop with aluminum.

dlevine 4y ago

Honestly, the X1 Carbon is a nice laptop. And even if you don't want to run Linux as your main OS, Windows 11 really isn't bad. With WSL2, you can use have all of the benefits of Linux for development while being able to run whatever Windows apps you want, and it really was pretty easy to setup. You can even run VS Code on Windows and edit files in your Linux container. I had a period last year and this year where I was consulting, and used my Ryzen Desktop as my main work machine. If I were looking to use something other than Macs (which I'm not), there are more good options now than there have ever been. Even though everything is still compared to the benchmark of Mac Laptops, which isn't an accident.

ArcMex 4y ago
Do you know of any use cases that WSL2 might be lacking for the average developer? Has there been any instance of you preferring a dedicated Linux box to WSL2?
- veesahni 4y ago
  WSL2 runs a Linux VM via Hyper-V at close to native performance. However, it slows down if you do any type of cross-os file system communication. So you need an IDE that knows how to work around this (eg: VSCode with WSL2 plugin runs a server in the VM to avoid cross-os fs comm)
  - 0x53 4y ago
    This (and directly accessing my network card) is why I'm sad WSL1 is no longer being developed.
- womod 4y ago
  WSL2 is for the most part totally usable for everyday development, but it does have a handful of issues that either need workarounds or are just infeasible. USB passthrough isn't yet supported, so it's necessary to make use of something like VirtualHere[1] or some another TCPIP tunneling daemon running on the windows depending on what you're trying to do. There seems to sometimes be issues with resuming from S0ix sleep where the VM process is still "running" but it gets stuck in a state where new processes just will not spawn. It's been a while since I messed with it, but my "solution" was disabling a VM security measure, launching Process Hacker 2 as admin, searching for "lxss" in the process list and terminating the corresponding svchost. The actual linux kernel running inside WSL2 is interesting, it's microsofts own custom kernel[2] with some magic sauce for making everything play nice. Unfortunately, it (still?) lacks a fully-functional SystemD so making some programs work can be a chore. Also all the kernel modules compiled in, and it doesn't allow loading them dynamically with modprobe. There are some alternative kernels out there that solve some of these issues, though I haven't bothered to try any since whenever I run into these sorts of issues it's less of a hassle to just switch to a dedicated linux box. For all of the issues that come with Windows 11, having WSLg make running graphical programs "just work" out of the box with rock-solid copy/paste, alt+tab, etc., really makes it a joy to work with. [1] - https://www.virtualhere.com/ https://www.virtualhere.com/ [2] - https://github.com/microsoft/WSL2-Linux-Kernel https://github.com/microsoft/WSL2-Linux-Kernel

vxNsr 4y ago

Does this support 2560x1440p@60Hz x3? Lenovo promised that their thinkpad 14s with the thinkpad thunderbolt 4 dock could do it, but the dock fails to actually consistently display all 3 monitors, with one irregularly flickering.

SamuelAdams 4y ago

Can you provide more details about these three things? - trackpad - your two sentences are very vague. Can you navigate with two fingers in a web browser? How is text selection? Or selecting a sentence out of a long paragraph, etc? In my experience nothing matches Apple in terms of precision and accuracy, but maybe Lenovo finally caught up recently. - screen: I use the built in display quite a lot. The color on a MacBook Pro is really nice. How does the Lenovo compare? - battery life: how many hours do you actually get? Your description is vauge and can be anything from 3 hours to 40 hours.

deleted 4y ago
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ditsuke 4y ago
> - trackpad - your two sentences are very vague. Can you navigate with two fingers in a web browser? How is text selection? Or selecting a sentence out of a long paragraph, etc? In my experience nothing matches Apple in terms of precision and accuracy, but maybe Lenovo finally caught up recently. I use the LG Gram 2022. The trackpad is nothing short of Amazing on Linux -- everything you expect works 2/3/4 finger gestures, panning; the scrolling however can use some tuning on Gnome.
jraph 4y ago
I'm using the X1 Carbon Gen 9 with openSUSE Tumbleweed (Plasma) > Can you navigate with two fingers in a web browser? On Firefox, two fingers to the left does previous, two fingers to the right does next (if you are not in a horizontally scrollable area, in which case it scrolls). Two fingers to the top or the bottom scrolls (pixel perfect). Kinetic scroll works. Pinch to zoom works (at long last!! I think it started working a year ago or something). > How is text selection? Or selecting a sentence out of a long paragraph, etc? I select whatever I want to select with ease. I go to the first word I want to select, double-tap, move to the last word. The text autoscrolls if I go to an edge if it's a long chunk of text. Triple tap to select entire paragraphs. D&D works quite well too. I'm very happy with the precision with both my HP Elitebook 840 G6 and My Carbon X1. They both have a huge, reliable touchpad. I've never tried a Mac seriously though. > how many hours do you actually get? 10-11h if I pay attention. 6-7h easily. (i7 and 32G of RAM). I hope it will improve. The touchscreen on both machines is surprisingly usable and useful. Both machine are quiet, and they are totally silent if I'm just typing or browsing the web. The fans can spin up during a video call or compile something for a long time, but that can be prevented if needed by forcing the powersave mode using KDE's UI for this.

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gryf 4y ago

There is no such thing as a macbook replacement at the moment IMHO. There is literally nothing with the same quality, battery life, thermals, audio, display, keyboard and reliability on the market. Not even the most expensive machines can get anywhere near even an M1 MacBook Air on this front. The M1 MBP destroys everything else. I develop software on it no problems at all. We are way past targeting one platform. Linux can be the destination for sure but like hell I'm going to do the dev work on it. Years of attempting to run Linux on a laptop or desktop have left a very unpleasant flavour in my mouth. It might work today but it probably won't tomorrow and I'm getting too old to waste my time futzing. It has to work right now, properly, today with no risks. Note: I have a mandated Dell Precision 7670 for some work, one of the most ridiculously stupid computers ever made and far more expensive in this config than a high end MBP M1 Max and it's absolutely a pile of shit from a hardware and software perspective. If you ran Linux on it, it'd be worse than if it ran windows on it, which is already terrible.

qumpis 4y ago
You say, talking about Linux: "It might work today but it probably won't tomorrow". Can you elaborate?
- gryf 4y ago
  I've had 20 years of anxiety about closing the lid, hibernating, sleeping. Numerous working configurations became non working configurations after kernel updates and distribution upgrades. And that doesn't include some of the problems with the desktop software I've had. On the server, zero hassle.
  - taxyz 4y ago
    Came here to echo this sentiment. I even bought from a specialized Linux laptop retailer hoping that the hardware would have been selected because of its Linux compatibility; either an upgrade from Ubuntu 20 to 22 or a kernel upgrade or an nvidia update broke my ability to close the lid and trigger suspend. I tried everything, dove semi-deep into systemd settings, spent hours online and pouring through logs and journald and forums and bug reports. Tried rolling back versions of damn near everything only to then break things I had installed after other upgrades. I tried doing some half-assed custom shell scripts that felt janky. After several nights of losing all my free time after work only to wake up the next morning to a dead laptop battery, I treated myself to an m2 13” mbp. No ragrets.

jonaf 4y ago

I purchased the ThinkPad P1 mobile workstation in 2018. It's a great machine but it's about as loud as a vacuum cleaner.

ArcMex 4y ago
I’ve eyed the P series for years but ever since I got a MacBook Air, I have come to expect my machines to be silent.

jmclnx 4y ago

Lets see: > Integrated Intel® Iris® Xe Graphics No Nvidia, nice, may work with OpenBSD > 8 GB LPDDR5-6400MHz (Soldered) Why Soldered Memory, not good. And who sells 8gb memory with a serious look :) > 256 GB SSD M.2 2280 PCIe TLC Opal Fine by me > Intel® Wi-Fi 6E AX211 2x2 AX vPro® & Bluetooth® 5.1 Should be fine > 14" WUXGA (1920 x 1200) Edit, not bad I think - seems even better than 16:9, more vertical resolution, nice. All in all, sorry, I will pass due to the Soldered Memory. But looks like a nice machine that could be used with a BSD

nicolaslem 4y ago
> Why Soldered Memory, not good. LPDDR5 does not exist in DIMM for technical reasons. Laptops with discrete RAM sticks use slower and more power hungry regular DDR5. There are pros and cons both ways.
richbell 4y ago
> All in all, sorry, I will pass due to the Soldered Memory The specs are configurable, OP just linked to a specific configuration. Though the soldered memory is an unfortunate compromise to the conventional ThinkPad experience.
- CameronNemo 4y ago
  I don't think that any configuration has SO-DIMM RAM, you need to go to the T series for that.
  - gabrielhidasy 4y ago
    But some have enough memory that you would probably not miss the SO-DIMMs, I mean, do you have a workload needing more than 32GB that you would run in the notebook (with the limited CPU and thermal constraints)? But just 8GB in a non-upgradeable package is not for me.
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postit 4y ago

A long time linux user, turned to mac user, back to linux and now back to mac again disagrees with you. The amount of time and energy I had spend fixing silly problems and integrations could've be better used somewhere. In contrast with mac, I open it and do work and close it knowing it won't explode next time I open it.

sofixa 4y ago
The thing is though, when there is an issue on macOS (like it complaining a USB peripheral is using too much power and it has been suspended, of course without saying which USB peripheral, or the iPad you want to extend your screen to not showing), there's usually not much you can do. The OS is pretty closed down, very specific and the majority of materials online are on the "try turning it off and on again" level. With Linux distros there might be more to debug, but at least you can debug. PS: If anyone has any ideas about my USB device, I'm all ears. A colleague advised the system report from the Apple menu, but it's a snapshot in time, so useless for my problem.
fsflover 4y ago
I downvoted you, because your comment doesn't bring anything to the conversation. Vague "silly problems" occur on every device, even on my microwave.
- postit 4y ago
  Just because you downvoted my comment doesn't mean it's not valid. Downvotes are a subjective measure of agreement and they do not necessarily reflect the accuracy or usefulness of a comment. Others may find value in my personal experience with Linux and Mac, and it's not up to you to decide whether my comment is relevant or not. While it's true that every device can have problems, my experience with Linux was that the problems I encountered were frequent and time-consuming to fix. In contrast, my experience with Mac has been much smoother and I have had fewer issues to deal with.
  - fsflover 4y ago
    > Others may find value in my personal experience with Linux and Mac I don't see how "Linux bad, Mac good" experience would help anyone without providing any specific details. There are already millions of such "experiences" on the Internet. By the way, I have the opposite experience. Also, you again provided no value with your comment and it's not just my subjective opinion, it's a fact. Your both comments look like ChatGPT.

sys_64738 4y ago

My criteria for a laptop are: must be totally silent with no loud fans, very long battery life, must not overheat. Usually that rules out any Intel laptop.

ergonaught 4y ago

I've been using the X1 Carbon for my Linux laptops for at least six years (4th Generation), and mostly love it.

kitsunesoba 4y ago

I own a first gen ThinkPad X1 Nano and while it's a great laptop in many regards (super lightweight and tiny, great screen, has support for proper S3 sleep, and generally good in respects that x86 laptops often aren't), its CPU undermines it entirely. Even though it's built with the lowest spec Tiger Lake CPU that was offered at that point in time, it can't keep its fan off doing anything more intensive than web browsing. Even plugging in a rather pedestrian 2560x1440 60hz monitor is enough to keep its fan running. The CPU also sucks more power than it should given its performance, even in "Power Saving" mode under Windows 10/11 and Fedora. I wish so much that in place of its Intel CPU there was an M1. That alone would increase its appeal dramatically. The ARM-based Thinkpads Lenovo now offers are a nice step in that direction but sadly their performance trails far enough behind the two year old M1 that it isn't an ace in the hole either. Honestly depending on how things go I might just trade the Nano in for an Air at some point and do Windows Things™ through a Parallels VM running Windows for ARM or even just an RDP session to my custom build tower.

goosedragons 4y ago
Maybe give one of the AMD versions a try if you can? My P14s Gen 2 AMD with a Ryzen 5 5650U has been very quiet even running multiple monitors, temps have been low generally in mid-30s/low 40s unless I really push it. Supports S3 sleep too.
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  Yeah, maybe. The main issue there is that I was buying for it specifically being a good laptop, with portability taking a front seat, without gimmicks that add fragility like a hybrid hinge. The X1 Nano (aside from CPU) excels at this, whereas P series for example makes compromises for better power, which I don't need. If I want power my well cooled 5950X/3080Ti tower offers that in quantities far greater than any laptop could deliver. X1 series is sadly Intel exclusive though, with the closest thing with AMD being X13, but that isn't quite the same. There's also the Z series but those are weird to say the least and decidedly "un-thinkpaddish". Might just have to settle for X13.
Eldandan 4y ago

midrus 4y ago

I’ve used thinkpads (and the X1 in particular) for many years. And I do think they’re the best option you have outside of the apple ecosystem. But they are far, far, far of being an excellent replacement for MacBooks. Specially after the new Apple silicon has shown up. The deep OS integration, power saving, performance, seamless upgrades of OS, build materials quality, trackpad, audio quality, etc, etc is far ahead on MacBooks. But I do agree they are the best option if you hate or can’t pay or aren’t allowed to use apple products.

spullara 4y ago

The M1 has completely and utterly outclassed Intel/AMD and there is no way I would buy one now except for games and ML workloads that need NVIDIA cards.

hunterloftis 4y ago
I agree the M1 is great hardware. However, the feeling of speed is made up of much more than just the hardware's capabilities. The OS you use, the toolchain you have access to, impacts your experience as well. This X1 matches 92% of a 2022 MB Air's single-core performance and 94% of its multi-core performance (https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/19092431 https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/19092431). I'm happy to wait an extra 100ms for something to compile in order to have a nicer daily experience of the machine and operating system.
- spullara 4y ago
  And 0% of its silence while doing all that. Also, I would check real benchmarks. I have seen much bigger differences.
  - Brian_K_White 4y ago
    m1/m2 performance is only great while you live within it's limits. It's all special optimization tricks in hardware to match up with certain common software operations. Great if your usage pattern matches. It's almost like when hardware has special bits that make benchmarks scream because they know exactly what the benchmark software does, yet normal work is the same or worse than anyone else. It's not exactly that bad. M1/M2 does perform a lot of real work a lot better. But it's "a bit like that" It's just that it only works if your usage matches what Apple targeted as what most people will ever need to do.

gigatexal 4y ago

I have a Lenovo p14s. I got it from work. I love it. I came from a 2020 MacBook Pro. I’ll never ever go back to MacOS. I love my thinkpad and fedora too much.

nnoitra 4y ago

mandeepj 4y ago

borland 4y ago

Why are there ads on HN now?

hunterloftis 4y ago
There are regular HN threads discussing good development machines, especially from people hoping to find an OSS alternative to MS, Google, & Apple walled gardens. The hardware & operating system used for building products is a discussion relevant to many of us here.

gtvwill 4y ago

elgar1212 4y ago

I've been considering moving from a mbp to an x1 for a while now, but a couple things are keeping me from it: - mbp isn't dead (yet) - x1 is made in china, human rights issues - x1 is less repairable than other thinkpad models such as t14 or p14 (which are still made in china, however) - now there is linux support for mbp for dual booting

nequo 4y ago
Isn’t the MacBook Pro also manufactured in China?
- elgar1212 4y ago
  Yes, but I got it several years ago and wasn't as concerned about China at the time Future gens of mbp might not be made in China (but afaik they still are)
sva_ 4y ago
> x1 is made in china, human rights issues I was under the impression that most MBP are made in China?
- elgar1212 4y ago
  > I was under the impression that most MBP are made in China? afaik they all are, but this was a purchase from several years ago
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akvadrako 4y ago
You might be okay with laptops from Taiwan instead of mainland China, for example ASUS. They have nicer laptops than Lenovo too.
- 4y ago

therealmarv 4y ago

Found recently a no go for me against Linux on desktop (it's important for my workflows): HDR, wider color space (P3 etc) + color management for all that things are not really supported in current Wayland desktops. https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/14 https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/m... It will probably change next year (and the desktop software like players etc. need to catch up too) but monitors supporting these standards are existing for many years now. There is only Mac and Windows (Windows is even better with broader HW support actually) in this niche.

kitsunesoba 4y ago
Color management still has major issues on Windows too. For a while I was running a calibrated profile on my Windows desktop and it doesn't consistently apply to every app, and you need to use a third party daemon to periodically reload the profile to make sure that the apps that can use it actually do. It's a mess.

wtf77 4y ago

I have tried several non-apple systems with windows or Linux. No, sorry, but unless you want to go crazy behind the PC and/or operating system Apple wins hands down.

kitplummer 4y ago

I like my Framework with Ubuntu. Wish it wasn't Ubuntu but everything works.

timbit42 4y ago
Why can't you use Linux Mint which is based on Ubuntu?

thefz 4y ago

So far I am impressed at the quality of my X1 Yoga Gen.6. The least bullshit, most work oriented machine I've ever had.

caycep 4y ago

Granted, I feel they've been slacking on the (previously) legendary T series models, sadly...screen/trackpad suck and the chassis flexes

kristianp 4y ago

I have an X1 gen 6 and I love it. Keyboard keys don't have the nice click to them like a mac or surface, it's more of a mushy feel. However thinkpads do have pgup, pgdn, home and end buttons which is a big plus if you learnt to type on a pc desktop. -Recent X1s have switched to a higher TDP Intel processor (p instead of u series?), so I imagine performance has improved at the expense of more fan noise. - I went with the matt 2k screen, which doesn't have the brightness of a macbook screen. Thinkpads are often up to 30% off on lenovos website, but it seems that they don't discount the configurable options any more, which rules out getting a good price for a 32GB config.

hunterloftis 4y ago
> Thinkpads are often up to 30% off on lenovos website, but it seems that they don't discount the configurable options any more, which rules out getting a good price for a 32GB config. Just to clarify here, I got a 32GB model at 51% off (that "sale" is now at 49%).
- kristianp 4y ago
  That's cool. Is that for an X1 Carbon or something else?
  - hunterloftis 4y ago
    Yep, for the 10th gen X1 Carbon

jll29 4y ago

I'm using an Apple MacBook Air M1 (2020) with 16 GB RAM and 1 TB SSD and a Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Carbon with 16 GB RAM and 1 TB SSD at the same time. As an intense power user, I care less about budget and more about the quality of the machine I use. I ordered myself the MacBook at work and privately purchased the X1 to put Ubuntu Linux on it (curious about the M1 and having had a great experience with each of a range of past ThinkPads - X61s, X220, X230, T41). Both machines are very light, and not very rugged (for ruggedness, go for a Dell Latitude E6400 XFR or E7450). Both fell one time each, the X1 had no visible marks, but the MacBook Air now has a visible dent just above the logo. Thankfully, both machines remain fully operable. The X1 is great for Linux, and that's my preferred platform. I'm biased towards that because it's not proprietary, but not out of purely ideological reasons, I just want to make sure the platform continues to exist. Thankfully, the Mac also has a Unix under the hood, alas often things are in weird locations or not installed at all, so I feel less "at home" on MacOS X. Also, having been a dual Linux/Mac OS X user since 2008, I find the usability of Mac OS is decaying - many things are hidden in non-obvious places. For example, it's not helpful if scrollbars are hidden and you have to exactly hover over where they ought to be in order to make them visible first - when you are on a call and need to pull up some data quickly, this is distracting. The Mac has longer battery life, and is often superior when discovering a WiFi network nearby; it's audio also works flawlessly. In contrast, on the X1 under Linux, occasionally the headset plugged in isn't instantly recognized without some fiddling. Both machines are very fast, with the M1 being without equal. I notice it mostly when installing/updating new software, as heavy compute jobs are usually done on clusters or in the cloud nowadays. I end up using the Mac mostly for e-mail, making slides and going on Zoom calls, whereas any development work tends to happen more on the X1. Neither is a perfect machine. I'd love to have a Mac with a proper keyboard, or a ThinkPad with an M1 chip, and the former would be more of an improvement than the latter because CPU speed isn't the bottleneck for my laptop usage profile. For the time being, I shall continue to carry two laptops.

ThePhysicist 4y ago

I'm using both a 16'' Macbook Pro (M1) and a 14' Lenovo T14 (Gen 3), the former mostly for work and the latter for personal computing using Linux (Kubuntu). Both machines are great, the new T14 was the first laptop I was happy to replace my T460p with. I tried a few of the earlier Lenovo models but they were terrible and hardly offered any performance improvements over my 5 year old model. The Macbook is of course an amazing device, build quality is great and if you're a fan of MacOS it's the perfect machine. It has a humongous battery as well (almost 100 Wh I think), which really gives it an edge over the T14 (50 Wh), especially since the base power draw is lower (7W vs. 11 W), which itself is ridiculous given the larger screen size. That said the T14 is the perfect Linux machine, everything works out of the box without issues, even the touchscreen and the fingerprint reader. There is still a minor issue when suspending/waking up (touchpad reactivity will degrade), but I hope there will be a fix soon.

hnbear 4y ago

In a previous role at a Macbook only shop one team requiring linux machines got X1 Carbons as they best linux machine generally available and easily supportable. Through a roughly 5 year period of trying various models they were consistently pretty reliable, and very easy to run Debian or Ubuntu on (our standard linux OS), through multiple OS versions too. The screens and trackpads definitely weren't Apple quality. Not bad, but switching between my Carbon and my Macbook was pretty jarring. That said, it paired up immediately with my Logitech mouse (MX Master) that I got for it, and it was easy to get the driver to show things like mouse battery in the linux menubar, something macOS won't do for you. Generally everything just worked out of the box, including things like USB-C charging, which was great to share chargers with the Macbooks. The biggest issue we consistently faced was TPM support. At least once a year a kernel upgrade would totally bork a couple of machines as the TPM got reset of corrupted, meaning the machines would need to be wiped and rebuilt. After the first people would update and get broken we'd just warn the team to be careful around those updates.

jonahbenton 4y ago

The larger P series from Lenovo are also excellent, have 4k screens, and run Fedora flawlessly. They also have next day onsite warranty support which actually works. The hardware is definitely not Apple level, but it's good, and for those of us for whom Apple software/ecosystem for various reasons are not a fit, the combination of Fedora and Thinkpad is something to be grateful for. As much as I support the motivation behind System76 and Framework- and I own products from both- the quality is not (yet) professional tier. Fedora + Thinkpad is.

qubitcoder 4y ago

Unfortunately, while I loved and used ThinkPads for many years, the lack of a 4k or similar hi-DPI screen immediately makes this a non-starter. As does the pitifully poor brightness and color coverage. I’ve never understood how developers could work on a low quality screen after seeing (or using) the first MacBook Pro with a “retina” screen. That’s not to mention the performance and heating issues that plague every high-end Windows laptop (i.e. the Dell offers 4k screens and above, such as the XPS 17”, but they suffer from thermal issues, suspend issues, and atrocious sound—not to mention being heavy and cumbersome). Speaking from experience, having used Linux on a laptop as a primary development machine on-and-off for years, you’ll spend many hours of your life trying to fix trackpad issues, suspend and hibernate problems, fan issues, graphic driver hell, boot issues after kernel upgrades, Bluetooth and Wi-Fi “quirks”, etc. And that’s on Dell’s XPS line, not some oddball laptop. Let me know when there’s a manufacturer that produces laptops with Apple’s XDR screen quality, similar performance, thermals, sound, build quality, reliability, etc., and with the ability to run Linux natively. Competition would be fantastic. Realistically, I don’t see it happening anytime soon. I do, however, miss the keyboard and “nub”.

poisonborz 4y ago

I'm happy that OP is happy, but he points out to the most highly regarded model of the most beloved non-Apple laptop brand as a great alternative... And while X series Thinkpads are solid workhorses with reliable warranty, this is not true. I'm not even talking about that Lenovo/the whole segment still doesn't have a competitor for the original M1 with battery life/performance. But due to old rotten deals they are only offered with Intel CPUs that have terrible thermals, throttling, and have shaky Arc GPU drivers. I can't even choose them with the better AMD options out of the already uncompetitive x86 options. There are other lines like the Yoga 7 Gen 7 (that is more aimed at the macbook crowd) but those lack the business features that would put them somewhat in line with value. Most serious non-Apple laptop makers are in a Catch-22 with their lucrative Intel exclusivity contracts.

yellow_lead 4y ago

I wish they had one with the i9 and no Nvidia card.

tomjen3 4y ago

Does the fingerprint reader work? How long does the battery last? Using Ubuntu, does hibernation work? As a final tip, the touchpad might be good, but imho the real benefit of the thinkpad line is the TrackPoint. You can do basic mousing without moving your hands.

hunterloftis 4y ago
I don't know if the fingerprint reader works - I don't like them, so haven't tried to set it up (it's integrated into the power button, which of course does work). I haven't spent more than 8-10 hours off of a charger, so I don't know what the death point is for the battery. At least a full day working & streaming. I use Fedora, not Ubuntu, so I can't speak to Ubuntu's hibernation. Power management works seamlessly on Fedora: connecting/disconnecting battery, opening/closing lid when connecting/not, timing out to sleep, awaking on keypress or lid open, etc etc. All the annoying combinations that, previously, I've had issues with on Linux devices. Thanks for the trackpoint tip! I do want to try to acclimate to it because that sounds like a nice workflow. It's hard to break muscle memory, though.

cm277 4y ago

I've used Thinkpads exclusively for >20 years, last ~10 all X1s. I am typing this on an X1C Gen10 as well. It's an OK machine, but unless something shifts spectacularly, it will be my last Thinkpad: it runs hot, even with the fan on (I dont code anymore; this is just standard Office workload), its battery is ridiculous for 2022 (~6-7hrs in practice even with battery saver turned on) and it's glitchy (which granted may be Windows 11). At the end of the day, I can excuse all of these if a) it wasnt a nearly $3k machine (!), b) that Macbooks didnt exist. And with me so will probably go my company's fleet as well. Thinkpads are still the best corporate series I've seen (including Macbooks) but the value for money just isnt there any more: what's the point of squeezing out depreciation as far as you can when you are starting at 2x the price/benefit?

heywoodlh 4y ago

I am glad for those that have found machines and operating systems that work for them. For myself, I also prefer a solid Linux (NixOS) workstation over anything else. I also really like the M1 Macbook hardware a lot and think that's a sweet experience! One thing of interest that I am noticing in the comments is certain comments coming off as "absolute truth" in regard to the experience with their preferred OS and hardware vs a less preferred alternative. I find it useful to chill out and realize that everyone will find things they like more about the OS and ecosystem they have chosen. All OS-es have awesome strengths and frustrating weaknesses and I find it annoying when anyone tries to argue otherwise. Let people enjoy their chosen paradise!

rcarmo 4y ago

Related: my take on the X1 Yoga (not Carbon), similar configuration: https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2022/12/03/1600 https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2022/12/03/1600 Nice, but not world-shattering. Also noisy. Would not use it instead of a MacBook Air, let alone a Pro.

nivertech 4y ago

> Plug it into a 100Mhz ultrawide monitor via a lightning cable, and not only does it seamlessly extend the desktop at native refresh rates, but it also mounts all the devices that are connected via the monitor's integrated USB hub. @hunterloftis what ultrawide monitor do you use? I own an X1 Carbon Gen 10, i7-1260P, 2TB, 32GB RAM with OLED screen and WWAN modem with Ubuntu 22.04. The webcam and the WWAN modem are still not supported under Linux. I want to buy a Lenovo ThinkVision P40w-20 5K ultrawide monitor, but after googling I see that many people having problem with Ubuntu 22.04/Wayland. Maybe it's working with Fedora, but not with Ubuntu? What's the resolution of your UW monitor, and does the Intel integrated graphics fast enough for it?

hunterloftis 4y ago
@nivertech I use the Samsung c34j74x: https://displaysolutions.samsung.com/monitor/detail/1280/C34J79 https://displaysolutions.samsung.com/monitor/detail/1280/C34... It's 3440x1440, and yes the Intel driver under Fedora drives it flicker-free at 100 Hz.

luis2527 4y ago

Compared to the MB, the fan is loud. I even stated writing my own fan control, but it can't fix the fan that's either definitely audible at 4500RPM or dead silent at 0RPM (which is not sustainable even for very light workloads on Linux). Here's the script: https://github.com/luisgerhorst/fancontrol-tpx1c9 https://github.com/luisgerhorst/fancontrol-tpx1c9

luis2527 4y ago
The solution I settled with was to use a 2m Thunderbolt cable to move the thing away from my desk. In an office environment this works, but in quiet rooms it may not.

not_me_ever 4y ago

I own the 16", i9 (>$5000) version of this, and I must say: a) It's one of the best PC notebooks I ever owned. b) It's a piece of crap. The keyboard is very (VERY!) wonky, got two replacements, it's systemic. The touchpad dies every 2-3 weeks, Lenovo service has been great, getting me a new one within 2-3 days every time, I gave up on replacing it after two months, and just use ... sorry ... a magic trackpad. The middle of it started bubbling up about 3 months in - leaving about a 3-5mm gap when closing the lid. Not that the lid ever closed tightly anyway. Don't even get my started on battery life. It doesn't exist. Switched from using Fedora to PopOS. Which - for me - is an even better experience. And just to be clear: It's the hardware that's crap, not the software. And: I have been a ThinkPad user for the last 30 years. Still have my 700C, and all the models inbetween.

sagarm 4y ago
Sure your battery isn't swelling? The poor battery life and fact that the middle is bubbling...
hunterloftis 4y ago
That sounds rough! I would probably look into getting a full replacement (possibly with a different model) from Lenovo, given such persistent "lemon" issues.

wereallterrrist 4y ago

Lenovo has the absolute worst bioses of any laptops I've ever bought. None have LVFS/fwupdmgr support. My most recent one, bought from newegg, appears to be a limited mainline-china-only release that hasnt received A SINGLE BIOS UPDATE despite there being numerous high-sev platform updates for every other device in my arsenal. Neither would let me re-enable S3. Again, unlike my other devices, the Lenovos become almost useless if the internal display breaks. They require intervention on boot (internal disp only) if you use an unofficial power supply. This isnt even counting battery life, the M1 performance, trackpad quality, trackpad click mechanism, trackpad size, on and on, etc. Keyboard deck flex. The list goes on. Complete stockholm syndrome vibes.

nathants 4y ago

i have this laptop and am also very satisifed. zero issues. i run a minimal dev setup[1]. there is a simpsons episode where homer designs a car. it has a lot of cup holders and is very expensive. this is a lot like macos, and even more like the linux setups people struggle to get to work after migrating off mac. architectural tip: fewer cupholders. 1. https://github.com/nathants/alpine-setup https://github.com/nathants/alpine-setup