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Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts
- kieselguhr_kid 4y agoGood for them! It'd be nice to see a software engineering guild emerge in the coming years. Think about the benefits we could accrue; I for one would strongly prefer a real pension to a 401K.
- bjornsing 4y agoOh yea? You can have mine, if you give me your 401k. (It’s like $20k per year, and you’ll pay taxes on that when the day comes. You may have to move to Sweden to survive on it.)
- kieselguhr_kid 4y agoI suspect you're conflating your state pension everyone gets with a job-based pension that pays a percentage of your salary. And even if not, I know plenty of people, even teachers and other low-paid workers, whose pensions are much better than that.
- busterarm 4y agoEven though we're already 3 decades into blatantly clear evidence that the economics of pensions destroy both company and municipality alike (especially in high-paying, high-tax US markets where pensioners draw their pension but relocate to low-tax/no-tax states to live their life and spend it), we're facing real declining birth rates on the horizon which are making that even more true. The State of New Jersey, despite proximity to NYC and all of the income that brings has been financially on the brink of collapse due to pensions since the 70s. It would be wise of you to listen to the Swedes and Norwegians when they complain. They have some of the most funded and legally-guaranteed pensions in the world while economically times are becoming tougher and tougher for their citizens. Especially for the Norwegians it's looking like pensions can't even cover basic living expenses Norwegians face _THIS YEAR_ and that's on the back of fantastic oil wealth.
- granshaw 4y agoMany pensions are based on a percentage of the persons salary at a point in time, so no, it’s not always “20k a year”
- bestcoder69 4y agoThis is fantastic. Kudos to them. Copying some things they won, for the non-clickers: - Minimum 3% annual CoL raises - Profit-sharing bonuses - Putting their current benefits in the contract, so management will have to re-negotiate if they want to make them worse. - Replacing at-will with "just cause", progressive disciplining, with criteria for performance improvement plans. Looking forward to more details & seeing how this plays out, especially as the market collapses (probably will end up looking like amazing timing on their part, btw). Interestingly, for the people that like to paint unions as wokies, the progressive discipline item (if implemented well) actually _curbs_ 'cancel culture'. Because at-will employment is basically the enforcement mechanism for cancel culture.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago>Minimum 3% annual CoL raises Weird that they call it a CoL raise. If it isn't tied to cost, it is just an minimum annual raise.
- bestcoder69 4y agoWe don't know what it's tied to, because that's just the minimum.
- ep103 4y agoWeird that you're arguing that 3% isn't a CoL raise, when inflation has been pegged to 2.25% for decades, and is currently 8%+
- s1artibartfast 4y agoMy point is simply that CoL changes aren't fixed and fluctuate. I think it is weird to call it a CoL raise if you are guaranteed it even if CoL doesn't change or goes down. I'm not sure where you are getting that inflation has been pegged to anything. 2% might be an average, but it has gone everywhere from -2% to 6% in the last two decades. Besides, inflation is not CoL.
- karaterobot 4y ago
- jimmySixDOF 4y agoKickstarter also voted itself to become a Public Benefits Corporation [1] so you would hope they were already out in front of ensuring contributor rights are fairly represented in concert with other stakeholders. [1] https://medium.com/kickstarter/kickstarter-is-a-pbc-heres-what-that-means-and-why-it-matters-d90b2389ea6c https://medium.com/kickstarter/kickstarter-is-a-pbc-heres-wh...
- busterarm 4y agoAlso a large chunk of the employees who didn't want to unionize (25-35% of their peak headcount) left the company over some of the tactics employed in the contested fight over unionizing the company.
- gnicholas 4y agoCan you link to details about this?
- busterarm 4y agoLink? No. I'm personally in tight with a whole bunch of (ex-)Kickstarter people from rank and file to leadership. Glad to be friends with people but happy they're not my coworkers.
- native_samples 4y agoIt's worth remembering that the event that, uh, kickstarted their drive for unionization was the site's management banning a project that was raising money to support violence against conservatives (the actual physical kind, not words). The details are a bit fuzzy now but iirc some of the hard-left employees didn't like the ToS being enforced in that case, because whilst they accepted the project was calling for violence they felt that encouraging people to "punch Nazis" should explicitly be allowed. They felt that strongly enough that they unionized to force management to acquiesce. So this isn't a classical union that's requesting more money for the workers or anything. It's the new sort of union which tries to force companies to take sides in the culture war. It's thus not a surprise that a significant proportion of workers wouldn't want to be a part of that, and well, the sort of people who were unionizing the firm were doing so explicitly to support physical violence. US unions have a long history of violence already. https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/10/10/how-debate-about-punching-nazis-sparked-fight-create-techs-first-name-brand-union/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/10/10/how-debat...
- syspec 4y agoHow profitable is kick starter? I've not kept up, but it's certainly not discussed much these days According to Wikipedia: Net income: $1.3 million after tax (2019)[1]: 1
- bdcravens 4y agoThat's not much money at all.
- pessimizer 4y agoI'm pretty sure $1 of profit at a tech company puts you in the top 15%.
- ct0 4y agoWill this lead to reduced employment in Kickstarter? Probably
- chickenpotpie 4y agoWell theyre a public benefit corporation so it shouldn't be big right? Profit is supposed to be a nice side effect of what they're doing, not their main goal. If they were raking in the dough I would be asking how much they really cared about helping people.
- syspec 4y agoWell they'll need to grow at least 3% per year since everyone is going to be guaranteed a COL raise every year even on bad years.
- chickenpotpie 4y agoNo they don't, inflation is baked into their pricing model. They make money by taking a percentage of the donations. If inflation makes the dollar worth half as much, people will donate twice as much to get the same results.
- 4y ago
- gorwell 4y agoKickstarter may survive since they enjoy near monopoly status, but otherwise how can they compete given that high performers in tech are allergic to unions?
- kirykl 4y agoIs kickstarter a tech company ?
- throw_m239339 4y ago> Kickstarter may survive since they enjoy near monopoly status, but otherwise how can they compete given that high performers in tech are allergic to unions? "high performers" aren't going to be satisfied by Kickstarter's compensation at first place thus won't apply there. Also good luck arguing to your boss you are a "high performer" in a company that has "progressive performance evaluation", by what measure? This is a none issue.
- gorwell 4y agoGood point. I didn't realize they had already weeded them out.
- VictorPath 4y ago> high performers in tech are allergic to unions? High performers in tech do not have a problem with the heirs who own a majority of their corporation's stock telling them what to do, but are allergic to the people alongside them doing the work and creating the wealth from having input.
- xeromal 4y agoWhat does this mean?
- sushid 4y agoHeirs? Kickstarter isn't a dynasty by any stretch of imagination. High performers in tech are in fact allergic to unions. I guarantee you that the highest paid FANG engineers would never in a million years even consider applying to a unionized tech company. Do you know how hard it is to already weed out underperformers in large tech companies? I wouldn't be surprised if half of Kickstarter's engineers pumped out fewer than 3 PRs a week. Only the underperformers will choose to stay in the long run.
- 0des 4y agoIs it mandatory for employees to join the union?
- toomuchtodo 4y agoOr course not. You can work somewhere else if you don’t want collective representation. Can’t have your cake and eat it too, getting benefits of a union without joining it is freeloading.
- t34egr 4y ago
- toomuchtodo 4y ago[flagged]
- t34egr 4y ago[flagged]
- karaterobot 4y agoWhen I worked at a place with UAW representation, you had the option to not become a UAW member and still work there, but you had to pay some portion of the union dues anyway. They were not called dues in that case, but something else. The argument was that UAW had negotiated certain benefits that you enjoyed whether you were a member or not, so you should still pay something.
- djbebs 4y agoThe union isn't my employer, why would I need their permission to work?
- pessimizer 4y agoBecause your employer wants the union to be happy. You also need the customer's permission to work; because if customers ask your employer to fire you, your employer will think that it's a good idea to fire you. edit: TBH, you need my permission to work, too, if I know enough of the customers or have enough followers on my twitter account.
- jjcon 4y agoLove that someone in tech is finally getting unions in tech, don't love that it was kickstarter though. Their corporate culture is very toxic and I don't see them sticking around long term. It might be just me but my impression of kickstarter is that they are some of the worst offenders of 'maximum virtue signaling, minimum virtue'. That makes me inherently skeptical of a move like this.
- pgwhalen 4y agoCan you shed some light on why you think they have a toxic culture? Have you worked there?
- t34egr 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- throw_m239339 4y ago> Their corporate culture is very toxic and I don't see them sticking around long term. I think they changed CEO recently, no? It seems like the ex-CEO, one of the founder, wasn't "a good cultural fit" after all. They had a round of layoffs a few years ago where some activist employees were weeded out, seems like it didn't work.
- busterarm 4y ago
- 71a54xd 4y agoBig no thanks to this. If you hate where you work this much, improve yourself and work somewhere else. Replacing at-will with "just cause", progressive disciplining, with criteria for performance improvement plans. If you're three years into a career in tech (technical or not) and you haven't figured out that being PIP'd or indirectly told you're fucking up - making this language "nicer" isn't going to help anyone. Adults don't give feedback in a transparent way and this is because they don't want to look discriminatory. Modern employment and HR policies have done great things, but they've made the waters for this kind of communication even more opaque and pushed incentives that way as well. Being unable to effectively communicate in a competitive professional environment as an adult and unionizing to solve this problem is at best juvenile, even worse when you think about long-tail consequences in terms of babying future hires. As someone who previously worked at Amazon and found it shitty, Amazon is a stupid point of comparison for unionizing in tech because it's a shit-show run like a hedge fund. However, as a heuristic, people who've spent more than two years at any kind of Amazon should be avoided IMO.
- arrrg 4y agoWhy does organizing mean you hate your workplace? Organizing means you want more power, more control. Also, there are many dimensions to liking or disliking your workplace. You may love the product your working on. You may really like your colleagues. You may also love the office environment. However, you may dislike the amount of vacation days, the lack of ability to work part time or the lack of paternal leave. Workplaces have literally hundreds of properties, each of which you may like or dislike. So organizing to tweak those you dislike (while, on balance, you actually still like most properties) is very normal.
- 71a54xd 4y agoPart of being an Adult TM is separating emotions from work. Admittedly, I was able to work on some very cool shit at Amazon - however the job made me hate my life. Ergo - adult logical cycles were spent, decided to get a new job after leetcoding for a bit. The people who aren't skilled enough to get new jobs or improve themselves (also holds true in any industry) will always be some degree of fucked. I admit, some unions are good, but engaging in a system that grants most benefit to people not willing to improve or make the bar of performance set by the industry isn't good for anyone involved. That said, never work for a place that makes you hate your life. And yes... having the ability to make that choice is a privilege.
- t34egr 4y ago[flagged]
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- oaththrowaway 4y agoUnions !== Socialism What an ignorant comment
- handsaway 4y ago[flagged]
- damagednoob 4y ago* Excess mortality in the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin[1] * Great Chinese Famine[2] [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin#:~:text=Prior%20to%20the%20dissolution%20of,were%2020%20million%20or%20higher https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Sovi.... [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine
- handsaway 4y ago* Bengal famine [1] * Boer concentration camps [2] * Various indigenous genocides [3] * Gaza and West Bank occupation [4] * 750k deaths a year due to long working hours [5] * Millions in the atlantic slave trade [6] * the 19th century cotton industry * the modern cotton industry [7] I can go on. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War_concentration_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War_concentration_... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples [4] https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/ https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-cas... [5] https://www.who.int/news/item/16-09-2021-who-ilo-almost-2-million-people-die-from-work-related-causes-each-year https://www.who.int/news/item/16-09-2021-who-ilo-almost-2-mi... [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade [7] https://ejfoundation.org/news-media/the-casualties-of-cotton https://ejfoundation.org/news-media/the-casualties-of-cotton
- adam_arthur 4y agoDefinitely wouldn't want to be part of a union. I represent myself, thanks. Smaller and wide set of unions in an industry can be effective, but industry wide unions are effectively a monopoly on labor supply and bad for society. Look no further than the MTA in NYC. Terrible cost overruns and bad governance of the subway system, for what? So employees can clock extra hours and get egregiously overpaid? No thanks. Competitive markets produce societally best outcomes, as is proven time and time again throughout history. Competition applies to labor too, by the way
- giantg2 4y agoHave you worked at a company where you were treated unfairly, were lied to, etc? How'd that work out for you?
- BitwiseFool 4y ago>"Have you worked at a company where you were treated unfairly, were lied to, etc? How'd that work out for you?" I feel like this happens, from time to time, in virtually every company or institution. I know of people who work for public-sector unions and this kind of thing is commonplace there as well.
- adam_arthur 4y agoYeah, I left for greener pastures and more pay. It's called the free market. Badly run companies will get weak talent and become uncompetitive.
- giantg2 4y agoIt doesn't have to be badly run. If 5% are getting screwed over, it won't hurt the company.
- adam_arthur 4y agoThose 5% can argue for better conditions or leave. If their value is not commensurate with their asks, they won't get it. Both labor supply and demand needs to be competitive for an efficient society. If there's a single employer in town, and lack of mobility for residents, that's a monopoly on labor demand just the same as a union is a monopoly on labor supply
- Xeoncross 4y agoI don't understand unions for tech workers. We're not living in shacks rented to us by the company and can't afford a bus ticket to a new city or school to start a new life. We're making six figures here. Want more pay? Sit on your butt and do leetcode or practice interviews and network with other rich programmers. Move to a tropical island and work remote. Heck, you don't even need to go to college and just about anything you want to learn is a $9.99 class away or free on in video format.
- goodpoint 4y ago> We're making six figures here Turns out there are other countries outside of the US. And even in US not all developers are overpaid. Moreover, software developers are much much more likely to drop out of their career before pension and/or face burnout than other fields.
- IE6 4y agoTech is not a monolith and there are certainly people employed by Tech companies who are engaged in technology oriented jobs who will benefit from unionization.
- FinalBriefing 4y agoUnions do more than ask for larger wages.
- claytonjy 4y agoJust because conditions are good, doesn't mean they couldn't be better, or that they will always remain good. Demands like unionization are made most effectively when the demanding party has high leverage. Unionization is a preventative measure against a future potential backslide in conditions. Not every worker can or wants to work for a FAANG, whether because of skill, time available to study, logistics like location, moral reasons, or anything else. We all deserve good working conditions now and in the future. Tech workers are absolutely spoiled compared to most other laborers. We also have higher leverage and thus a better chance at unionization compared to many others. Others having it worse should not prevent us from raising our own conditions, and actually helps improve conditions of other classes of laborers by making it more likely they'll unionize themselves or causing employers to improve conditions as a preventative measure.
- vivekmgeorge 4y agoIf you are into unionization and tech, it's worth exploring the platform co-op (worker co-ops) world a bit. An essential link list via their Facebook group page https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yL5-Q-uPgg1qGtxrKEYOXdsnLPlD6BZamTO3EWCsk4E/edit https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yL5-Q-uPgg1qGtxrKEYOXdsn...
- DeathArrow 4y agoAt first I thought those were people fighting for better working conditions. After reading the comments I've realized that most are activists trying to enforce cancel culture within the company.
- FuriouslyAdrift 4y agoEveryone just forgetting the 700,000 members of the Communication Workers of America (around since 1949)?
- sershe 4y agoReally digging unions in tech. I for one would love to slack off for a few years as a semi-sabbatical/early-semi-retirement before I leave a job. Or at least to dial down my contributions without fear of being paid less :) Just kidding, I think unions are pure evil, and the above is not even the worst one of the many reasons.
- granshaw 4y agoNow we just need general purpose software engineering certifications with teeth so we can move away from this leetcode death spiral in interviewing, and mature as an industry