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NYU is top-ranked in loans that alumni and parents struggle to repay

134 points by alex504 5y ago

tyingq 5y ago
The top two majors at NYU, by percentage, probably don't end in a high average salary after graduation. Visual and Performing Arts 17% Social Sciences 14% Then, $77k/year cost before aid, plus the high cost of living for the area. No surprise then.
- rayiner 5y ago
  This is why I refuse to support college loan bailouts, despite generally supporting welfare. Instead let’s give a bunch of money to kids who forwent an expensive art or social sciences degree to get a solid, practical job.
  - eunoia 5y ago
    Oh nice, looks like we finally figured out the meaning of life, the universe, why we’re here, etc: > a solid, practical job. ffs Edit to be a bit less flippant: As a holder of a “solid, practical job” for over a decade I definitely feel there should be more to life and don’t fault those who aspired for more than just practicality at the age of 17/18.
    - tptacek 5y ago
      There is more to life than a solid, practical job, but there isn't much more to what the government should subsidize, for the same reason the government shouldn't provide universal free yacht moorings ("don't you understand that the journey", proponents would argue, "is about so much more than the destination!").
      - wolverine876 5y ago
        > there isn't much more to what the government should subsidize, for the same reason the government shouldn't provide universal free yacht moorings Let's be aware of our bias toward our own knowledge and work. Knowledge of humanities and social sciences is not a luxury; it addresses almost all the critical issues in society - freedom, peace, war, prosperity, politics, economics, human nature through which it all happens, communication, conflict, power, democracy, capitalism, communism, etc. etc. All things more important than whatever most of us do.
        tptacek 5y ago
        A post-secondary 4-year education in the humanities is a luxury almost by definition, since it is not available to a substantial portion of the population (including many who attend 4-year college!), and wouldn't be even if tuition were free. The arts are important too, but owning a Renoir is still a luxury. I reject the argument that taking 4 years of courses on "communication, conflict, power, democracy, capitalism, communism, etc" is "more important" than "whatever most of us do", and I reject it for a bunch of reasons, not just the obvious one that taking a class on power is not the same thing is engaging with power.
        TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
        Which is why lawyers and media operators run the country. While you're rejecting the argument, they're using it against you. And you're being persuaded by them. Successfully. While still being convinced that the status quo isn't just the best of all possible worlds, everything you believe about it is your own idea.
        tptacek 5y ago
        I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I can't even tell if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing with me.
        wolverine876 5y ago
        Perhaps cutting to the chase: I'm aware that it's popular to discount those issues and education in those areas, but I think that just a little critical thought shows that the situation is quite the opposite, and on a very serious, urgent level: The issues are tearing apart our society and world, and it doesn't hold any water to say that we do not need to study these very difficult issues (we can see how human society has performed through most of history) and that we won't benefit from all the prior and contemporary knowledge in humanity. Why wouldn't you study what the ancient Greeks, Enlightenment thinkers, etc. have to say about it, and study it now, urgently? Addressing some details, in case the paragraph above misunderstands you, thought I think these are a bit too much in the weeds: > A post-secondary 4-year education in the humanities is a luxury almost by definition, since it is not available to a substantial portion of the population (including many who attend 4-year college!) Availability doesn't define luxury. When food is unavailable to most of the population, it still isn't a luxury. But we're not here to define words; I think the core issue is that, IMHO, such issues in the liberal arts are critical to the individuals and to our society. > 4 years of courses on "communication, conflict, power, democracy, capitalism, communism, etc" Reducing essential knowledge on these issues to just "courses" is like reducing knowledge about food supply to 'courses'. It's not 'courses', obviously, any more than nuclear weapons nonproliferation agreements are 'paper'. The idea that you know without studying is hard to fathom (beyond the popular trend) - how does the knowledge get into your head? Should we all rediscover through personal experience the most brilliant in human history have discoverd over billions of lifetimes? It seems a bit unlikley and inefficient.
    - stemlord 5y ago
      There likely won't be more to the lives of those in deep loan debt after receiving a visual arts degree, except that their jobs may be less than solid
    - friedman23 5y ago
      This feely bullshit thinking is what got these dumb kids into the problem in the first place. There is more to life than a job? Sure maybe there is, maybe there isn't either. The point is that people that make dumb decisions cuz feels and passion don't get bailed out by people that make practical and rational decisions. Live with your feels in massive debt, not my problem.
      - soared 5y ago
        Yea, let’s punish the 18 year olds who hoped they might be able to follow their passion instead of getting a business degree and sitting behind a desk for 40 years. Are their decisions good ones? No, not really. But at 18 I can’t really fault someone for not understanding the decades long implications of interest payments and job market dynamics.
        Ekaros 5y ago
        Should we bail out 18 year olds making other bad decisions. Let say entering some type of illegal business. Or maybe just maxing out credit-cards, payday loans and so on and gambling all that money?
        lostdog 5y ago
        Yes, and for all adults we should too. It shouldn't be possible to take out so much debt on such bad terms that you fuck up your life. Bankruptcy should be available for these cases, and lenders should be responsible for checking that an applicant is capable of paying back a loan.
        soared 5y ago
        We have protections around those things so kids don’t do them. With student loans we have the exact opposite of protections.
        s1artibartfast 5y ago
        I'm pretty sure we don't have protections against cc debt. An 18 year old can get 10 cards and run up 100k debt
    - dehrmann 5y ago
      > I definitely feel there should be more to life... I agree, I just have no interest in subsidizing it.
    - rayiner 5y ago
      There is more to life—a solid practical job is just how you pay for that.
  - tptacek 5y ago
    I agree with you, though you should consider means-tested loan bailouts targeting working class people, victims of for-profit colleges, and particularly people with relatively low (compared to NYU grads) burdens that didn't graduate. The median college debt burden is surprisingly low; the problem is that the media is preoccupied by the plights of people like those who work in the media --- high-earning-potential vanity-university graduates. Relief for NYU students though seems pretty far-fetched.
    - rayiner 5y ago
      Fair point, particularly people who didn’t graduate. There’s a lot of people being pushed into college that aren’t ready for it and won’t really benefit.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - nojito 5y ago
    The “bailouts” are for students of community colleges and state universities. Definitely a worthwhile policy to pursue.
    - tptacek 5y ago
      Flagship state universities are an expensive luxury product. Means-tested relief is worth pursuing, but "state school graduates" writ large are not an especially sympathetic cohort.
      - nojito 5y ago
        SUNY still costs way less NYU and calling state universities luxury in the same sentence as NYU is quite hilarious.
        tptacek 5y ago
        Just because a Maserati Quattroporte costs $100k doesn't mean a BMW 5-Series isn't a luxury.
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    I would reasonably support these bailouts if everyone else could get the same money as lump sum... But that would be insane in itself...
- TrackerFF 5y ago
  From what I've read, schools like NYU, Columbia, etc. offer creative arts programs at nosebleed prices. These are legit schools, even very prestigious programs - but it's still a sort of "pay to play" prestige mill that attracts students with rich / well-off parents. But alas, when you come from a normal family, it's hard to justify $50k-$80k/yr tuition - especially if you're not connected, or have backup plans.
- notjulianjaynes 5y ago
  > Visual and Performing Arts 17% The NYU Tisch School of the Arts is widely considered one of the best film schools in the world. I'm sure it graduates plenty of starving artists, but certainly also a disproportionate number go on to be incredibly successful compared to the same degree from your standard community college. It should still be less expensive. Take a look at some of the alumni: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NYU_Tisch_School_of_the_Arts_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NYU_Tisch_School_of_th...
VWWHFSfQ 5y ago
you can get a masters in public health at a school that doesn't cost 80k a year in one of the most expensive cities in the world you know I'm getting real tired of hearing these sob stories about not being able to pay for rent and food and being saddled with a lifetime of debt because you make very poor decisions
- bingohbangoh 5y ago
  Even crazier is that tuition went up at its fastest rate last year apparently -- _even during the pandemic!_. People are more thirsty than ever for college. This is one of the things I got most wrong about the Pandemic (the other being they wouldn't dare attempt a third lockdown).
  - cm2187 5y ago
    I think it is rather the result of money printing, and particularly how it was introduced (financial system). Plus labour shortage for highly educated people which drove up their salary. As a result all the activities of the upper middle class have known high inflation: expensive restaurants, prime real estate, art, college tuitions, etc. [edit] I guess also the explosion of the chinese upper middle class should also be a big factor.
  - redis_mlc 5y ago
    [dead]
- chmod600 5y ago
  There's something to be said about whether we are encouraging bad decisions, though. We're talking about an 18 year old (many of whom have never had any financial responsibility at all) making a decision that could saddle them with hundreds of thousands in debt that can't be escaped even by bankruptcy. We need to stop literally underwriting (as taxpayers) bad decisions. And private banks that do underwrite such decisions need to face the possibility of bankruptcy in some form (maybe not quick and easy bankruptcy after 2 years, but something).
  - 5y ago
malshe 5y ago
Without paywall: https://www.wsj.com/articles/nyu-college-graduate-parent-student-loans-11639618241?st=536k8joa3ikiz4b&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink https://www.wsj.com/articles/nyu-college-graduate-parent-stu...
ianbutler 5y ago
As an NYU CS grad, can confirm it is egregious. If I had to do it over I would have gone to a different university, the education at NYU was not unlike other much less expensive universities in fact I had a lot of doubts about quality save some select professors. The only reason I'm fine with my loans is because I'm a very well comped SWE. I don't personally have a lot of sympathy for people who do a liberal arts degree at NYU though. At least I knew I'd be able to pay this all back with some high degree of certainty.
- nojito 5y ago
  You should have sympathy because those individuals were lied to in terms of employment opportunities post degree.
  - ericmay 5y ago
    What was the lie?
    - gravypod 5y ago
      Every college I've researched claims that their graduates, on average, make $XXX,XXX/year. That number is usually enough to pay back their tuition. Unfortunately, what they don't tell you, is that is very bimodal.
      - Ekaros 5y ago
        If you are researching colleges. Maybe we should already expect the students to do some basic research outside it. Or in general on college level education. Finding lot of discussion about loans and employability has been entirely possible for years now. There is no excuse not to do this research for one of the most important decisions in their life.
        gravypod 5y ago
        Throughout highschool I was told by many adults that the internet wasn't an "accurate source for information" and "don't believe what you read online" etc. I obviously ignored them. I was also told multiple times by my guidance counselor in highschool that Software Engineers needed to be very good at math and that I would never succeed in that field and I should choose something more realistic. I also ignored her. I'm now a SWE at a FAANG company. I've helped scale multiple start ups (multiple of which are successful and one of which was just acquired). Society is set up in such a way that people are trained to: 1. Respect authority figures 2. Follow what your parents tell you to do 3. Your education is the most important thing in your life (between 10 and 30 yo) All of these things lead to situations where people are more than willing to take out massive loans because everyone in their life tells them "it will be ok!" and "don't think about the money right now, it's about the experience" which is one of the most disgusting ideas that I think is perpetuated. Basically when your parents, your teachers, your politicians, your peers, etc are doing something it's hard to think "that's a bad idea".
hermannj314 5y ago
I never understood why the government role in higher education is fixated on the financing. Pay cash for school, live modestly - no bailout. Get a loan for school, use cash for immodest lifestyle - free money! If college loans are a problem, then the cost of college is the real problem. Let's not use government to selectively reward individuals based on how they paid rather than the price they paid. I oppose any student loan reform or student loan bailouts for this reason. Do not believe the magician's misdirection, focus on the real issue.
- Ekaros 5y ago
  Reform is clearly needed. Possibly moving toward more market based approach, allowing bankruptcies or hugely limiting allowed amounts. Bailouts just look like rewarding poor decisions...
- HPsquared 5y ago
  If anything, student loans are already too subsidized, and their prevalence pushes up the cost of education. If student loans were on similar terms to a standard loan, most people wouldn't take them.
  - hermannj314 5y ago
    Fair point. Reversing the mess the government created through subsidized loans would help address prices. For several years the press has reported "government bailout for student loans is coming" and you add to this historically low interest rates. And then we are surprised when people take out lots of student loans and defer repaying them as long as possible. And now the press uses that as evidence of why we need a bailout.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > use cash for immodest lifestyle Do you have evidence of this? Most students I know who have borrowed are struggling. Many can't afford books, housing, food. People are living on ramen. > free money Loans aren't free money. Do we say the same about loans to wealthy people and corporations? I think there is often (I don't know about you) a bias against students or the poor as inherently untrustworthy or just unworthy, and therefore credit to them will just be used for bad things. That is, the issue is the preconceived notions, not the economics or policy. > If college loans are a problem, then the cost of college is the real problem. Let's not use government to selectively reward individuals based on how they paid rather than the price they paid. Education is essential to the general welfare. We can't wait for the perfect system and lose another generation of talent to waste (not developing) or bankruptcy; we need to address that is happening now.
neonate 5y ago
https://archive.md/fjnf1 https://archive.md/fjnf1
rootusrootus 5y ago
We should end student loans as they exist today. Too easy to get, and the interest rate is usurious given they can never be discharged in bankruptcy. If we as a society want college to be more attainable, we should build more of them and subsidize the tuition so kids can afford to pay for it with private loans of a reasonable size, or through working part time while in school. For so many reasons, we cannot do loan forgiveness. This is not a one-time problem with a one-time solution. It would present a huge moral hazard to do it once with a naive expectation it wouldn't need to be done again in a few years. Plus, it amounts to a giveaway to people who are by definition elite, which is political suicide. I get that the people paying student loans feel like it is a crushing debt they can never seem to escape, but college graduates earn significantly more, on average, so they are the least deserving of a handout.
throwaway_224 5y ago
I graduated NYU last year. I posted in reddit one of the top posts on NYU's page something like "how to make nyu cheap." All said and done I ended with roughly 60k in debt, which isn't bad since I work in finance. That said, I know someone who went to NYU to become a teacher and ended with 280k in debt. At this point a lot of people I know are "debtmaxxing" and banking on USD hyperinflation. For myself, I suspect that student loans will be forgiven before 2030, so I just pay the absolute minimum.
Aunche 5y ago
At least while I was applying to college, NYU was notorious for offering very generous first year scholarships, and being very stingy with 4 year scholarships, which led to students believing it was more affordable than it actually was.
- yardie 5y ago
  Not just NYU. My school had generous scholarships for freshmen. Then each subsequent year, as your loan limit was allowed to increase, you were expected to take on more loans. You could reapply every year for some of those scholarships but many were need based or one time only. As a first generation student it felt very bait and switch like.
  - seibelj 5y ago
    Boston University was well known for having high GPA requirements and being notorious for grade deflation and mandatory scaling of grades. B’s were very common, but with most scholarships requiring a 3.3 average it was easy to slip right under and need debt. I had several friends who lost their scholarships after freshman year.
- m_ke 5y ago
  Same thing happened to me at Columbia, I was paying 10K a year until my senior year when they randomly decided that I didn't qualify for any aid and was forced to take out a 60K loan to finish my degree.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    sounds like a trap "Arbitrary and Capricious means doing something according to one’s will or caprice and therefore conveying a notion of a tendency to abuse the possession of power. In U.S this is one of the basic standards for review of appeals."
    - gruez 5y ago
      Is that any different than various services (eg. cable) that offer a first year discount?
game_the0ry 5y ago
I anticipate there will be a lot of comments about how these folks should not have gone to an expensive private uni, could have made choices to avoid debt, the burden is on the borrower and it is their responsibility, etc - all true and valid points. However, the US is approaching a situation where the student loan problem will be an "everyone" problem, not just a borrower - I believe a ~$1.6 Trillion debt burden is a significant enough drag on the economy to be felt by everyone, and will be more painful not only for borrowers who can not pay but also non-borrowers who are indirectly affected. The money that could have been used to pay for housing, services, etc, will instead go to student loans. If I was a local business owner, I would think about that. If you are homeowner, imagine what the price of you home could be if buyers did not have student loans. I hope people realize this soon.
- xuki 5y ago
  > If you are homeowner, imagine what the price of you home could be if buyers did not have student loans. Are you saying student loan reduces house price? Sound like a win.
  - chasd00 5y ago
    Imagine what the price of your house could be if a mortgage loan was guaranteed by the US government. You could set a price wherever you want, the buyers could get a loan from a lender for any amount.
- jjcon 5y ago
  So bail them out cause it will trickle down to those less fortunate? I've heard that somewhere before. Only about 12 percent of Americans have student loans and the largest burden is among those with advanced degrees.
  - random314 5y ago
    Well, don't bail out the advanced degree holders. I like your rhetoric of the liberal POV as actually conservative - "trickle down". But it's not working.
paxys 5y ago
The only solution to fixing the student loan crisis is the one no one wants to hear – end federally backed student loans, and make the loans dischargeable in bankruptcy. The economic brunt of a bad loan needs to be felt by the issuing bank, not be distributed among taxpayers. When lenders get more stringent about handing out hundreds of thousands of dollars to teenagers, colleges will automatically have to scale back fees in order to get people to apply. No more 5-star hotel rates for shoebox dorms and cafeteria food. No more multi-million dollar pay packages for administrators and sports coaches. No more textbooks which cost $300 per class and need to be "refreshed" every year to prevent reuse. Prioritize lending for degrees which have a higher earning potential and so a higher chance of paying back. Favor students with a better academic record. Enforce a minimum GPA in order to keep getting funded. Issuing loans is a business, so treat it like a business rather than a social service with privatized gains and public losses. Conversely, the worst thing you can do for the problem is forgive existing loans. What do you then do when universities jack up tuition even more and students run up a tab of another trillion dollars over the next decade and refuse to pay, knowing that the government will bail them out anyways?
- meowtimemania 5y ago
  I think the multi-million pay packages for football coaches more often than not makes the schools money
  - paxys 5y ago
    This is largely a myth. Sports are a huge money sink for colleges. From https://www.bestcolleges.com/news/analysis/2020/11/20/do-college-sports-make-money/ https://www.bestcolleges.com/news/analysis/2020/11/20/do-col... : > In total, then, only 25 of the approximately 1,100 schools across 102 conferences in the NCAA made money on college sports last year
    - SilasX 5y ago
      Yes, that’s looking at the college’s entire academic department, which covers very unprofitable sports (in part because of mandates). Parent’s comment was about (massively popular) football.
wolverine876 5y ago
It's a popular trend here, and in other places, to dismiss the value of higher education - e.g., 'it's all the same'.[0] (I hear it often from people who already have such educations and expect their children to have them too!) But if we use our educations, we know that popular trends are an exceedingly poor means of understanding the world - it's hard to think of more dangerous, less reliable signals. Popular trends are astrology, witchcraft, conspiracy theories, lynchings, etc. Thinking about it just a little, probably anyone serious would much rather learn personally from the world's leading experts in the field, with every resource (labs, research libraries, etc.), and among brilliant, hardworking, serious classmates. Or would you be happy learning from just any person, with uneven resources and among people of questionable talent and motivation? In our industry, you want to learn software development from Google Fellows or the local front end shop? If the latter seems sufficient, or if you just want to hang out and take some classes like high school, I agree: Don't waste money on a top school (unless you do it cynically, just for the status and connections). If you're serious, I don't see how there is any question. I do agree that there's a bit of a mismatch - many people see college as High School Part II, just with harder classes and more personal independence - and colleges seem to cater to that. Not enough students conceive of what college really is, which is understandable given their high school backgrounds and lack of experience in the world: K-12 is all they know and they are experts in it with deeply engrained perspectives and habits after 13 years. The colleges need to help them see that it's a different world, and far wider and greater possibilties. Optimally, IMHO, college should wait for about 5-10 years of real world experience; how can you study the world without ever having experienced it? But as with anything, we have to work with imperfect institutions, systems, and people. [0] And that fits the general trend of degrading anything that stands in the way of elite power.
gentle 5y ago
I went to a state school rather than an expensive private school, went into a well paying career and paid off my student loans in 3 years. I'm sorry these students chose a different path, but there's no way the rest of us should take care of their terrible decisions. If you want to mandate some super low interest rate, then I'm fine with that, but just having the government pay off their loans is extremely offensive. If these people got into NYU in the first place then they're almost certainly from more well off families. They don't need the help.
pledess 5y ago
The WSJ article doesn't talk about differences in student-loan balances between men and women. It mentions one income source (egg harvesting) used by women students to reduce their amount of borrowing, but doesn't comment on other income sources, largely used by women, that have been discussed elsewhere (e.g., see the https://nyunews.com/2018/02/18/02-20-daddy-features/ https://nyunews.com/2018/02/18/02-20-daddy-features/ article). Data points such as "borrowed a median $74,000" might not be a good characterization of the experience of women at NYU. For the women borrowing much less than 74k, did their college career include traditional employment-based income sources that required skill sets learned at NYU, traditional employment-based income sources that didn't require anything learned at NYU, or other income sources that potentially have long-term effects on physical and mental health?
gentle 5y ago
This is something that students and parents should take into account when they're trying to figure out what school students should go to. In other words, stop going to NYU. It's a bad investment of time or money.
65 5y ago
Maybe part of the issue here is more about financial incompetence causing these bad decisions in the first place. Teaching a kid how to be wise with their money is unbelievably valuable. Just teaching kids how to spend and save their money can point them in the right direction when making a huge financial decision for college. I had the experience of managing, saving, and earning my own money as a kid, and when the time came to go to college, I had the choice between a more expensive school and my local state school. I chose my local state school, got basically the same education, and was able to pay off my debt in a year after graduating. I'm at a good spot professionally so it didn't end up mattering if I went to the more expensive school.

134 points by alex504 5y ago

The top two majors at NYU, by percentage, probably don't end in a high average salary after graduation. Visual and Performing Arts 17% Social Sciences 14% Then, $77k/year cost before aid, plus the high cost of living for the area. No surprise then.

rayiner 5y ago
This is why I refuse to support college loan bailouts, despite generally supporting welfare. Instead let’s give a bunch of money to kids who forwent an expensive art or social sciences degree to get a solid, practical job.
- eunoia 5y ago
  Oh nice, looks like we finally figured out the meaning of life, the universe, why we’re here, etc: > a solid, practical job. ffs Edit to be a bit less flippant: As a holder of a “solid, practical job” for over a decade I definitely feel there should be more to life and don’t fault those who aspired for more than just practicality at the age of 17/18.
  - tptacek 5y ago
    There is more to life than a solid, practical job, but there isn't much more to what the government should subsidize, for the same reason the government shouldn't provide universal free yacht moorings ("don't you understand that the journey", proponents would argue, "is about so much more than the destination!").
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      > there isn't much more to what the government should subsidize, for the same reason the government shouldn't provide universal free yacht moorings Let's be aware of our bias toward our own knowledge and work. Knowledge of humanities and social sciences is not a luxury; it addresses almost all the critical issues in society - freedom, peace, war, prosperity, politics, economics, human nature through which it all happens, communication, conflict, power, democracy, capitalism, communism, etc. etc. All things more important than whatever most of us do.
      - tptacek 5y ago
        A post-secondary 4-year education in the humanities is a luxury almost by definition, since it is not available to a substantial portion of the population (including many who attend 4-year college!), and wouldn't be even if tuition were free. The arts are important too, but owning a Renoir is still a luxury. I reject the argument that taking 4 years of courses on "communication, conflict, power, democracy, capitalism, communism, etc" is "more important" than "whatever most of us do", and I reject it for a bunch of reasons, not just the obvious one that taking a class on power is not the same thing is engaging with power.
        TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
        Which is why lawyers and media operators run the country. While you're rejecting the argument, they're using it against you. And you're being persuaded by them. Successfully. While still being convinced that the status quo isn't just the best of all possible worlds, everything you believe about it is your own idea.
        tptacek 5y ago
        I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I can't even tell if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing with me.
        wolverine876 5y ago
        Perhaps cutting to the chase: I'm aware that it's popular to discount those issues and education in those areas, but I think that just a little critical thought shows that the situation is quite the opposite, and on a very serious, urgent level: The issues are tearing apart our society and world, and it doesn't hold any water to say that we do not need to study these very difficult issues (we can see how human society has performed through most of history) and that we won't benefit from all the prior and contemporary knowledge in humanity. Why wouldn't you study what the ancient Greeks, Enlightenment thinkers, etc. have to say about it, and study it now, urgently? Addressing some details, in case the paragraph above misunderstands you, thought I think these are a bit too much in the weeds: > A post-secondary 4-year education in the humanities is a luxury almost by definition, since it is not available to a substantial portion of the population (including many who attend 4-year college!) Availability doesn't define luxury. When food is unavailable to most of the population, it still isn't a luxury. But we're not here to define words; I think the core issue is that, IMHO, such issues in the liberal arts are critical to the individuals and to our society. > 4 years of courses on "communication, conflict, power, democracy, capitalism, communism, etc" Reducing essential knowledge on these issues to just "courses" is like reducing knowledge about food supply to 'courses'. It's not 'courses', obviously, any more than nuclear weapons nonproliferation agreements are 'paper'. The idea that you know without studying is hard to fathom (beyond the popular trend) - how does the knowledge get into your head? Should we all rediscover through personal experience the most brilliant in human history have discoverd over billions of lifetimes? It seems a bit unlikley and inefficient.
  - stemlord 5y ago
    There likely won't be more to the lives of those in deep loan debt after receiving a visual arts degree, except that their jobs may be less than solid
  - friedman23 5y ago
    This feely bullshit thinking is what got these dumb kids into the problem in the first place. There is more to life than a job? Sure maybe there is, maybe there isn't either. The point is that people that make dumb decisions cuz feels and passion don't get bailed out by people that make practical and rational decisions. Live with your feels in massive debt, not my problem.
    - soared 5y ago
      Yea, let’s punish the 18 year olds who hoped they might be able to follow their passion instead of getting a business degree and sitting behind a desk for 40 years. Are their decisions good ones? No, not really. But at 18 I can’t really fault someone for not understanding the decades long implications of interest payments and job market dynamics.
      - Ekaros 5y ago
        Should we bail out 18 year olds making other bad decisions. Let say entering some type of illegal business. Or maybe just maxing out credit-cards, payday loans and so on and gambling all that money?
        lostdog 5y ago
        Yes, and for all adults we should too. It shouldn't be possible to take out so much debt on such bad terms that you fuck up your life. Bankruptcy should be available for these cases, and lenders should be responsible for checking that an applicant is capable of paying back a loan.
        soared 5y ago
        We have protections around those things so kids don’t do them. With student loans we have the exact opposite of protections.
        s1artibartfast 5y ago
        I'm pretty sure we don't have protections against cc debt. An 18 year old can get 10 cards and run up 100k debt
  - dehrmann 5y ago
    > I definitely feel there should be more to life... I agree, I just have no interest in subsidizing it.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    There is more to life—a solid practical job is just how you pay for that.
- tptacek 5y ago
  I agree with you, though you should consider means-tested loan bailouts targeting working class people, victims of for-profit colleges, and particularly people with relatively low (compared to NYU grads) burdens that didn't graduate. The median college debt burden is surprisingly low; the problem is that the media is preoccupied by the plights of people like those who work in the media --- high-earning-potential vanity-university graduates. Relief for NYU students though seems pretty far-fetched.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    Fair point, particularly people who didn’t graduate. There’s a lot of people being pushed into college that aren’t ready for it and won’t really benefit.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- nojito 5y ago
  The “bailouts” are for students of community colleges and state universities. Definitely a worthwhile policy to pursue.
  - tptacek 5y ago
    Flagship state universities are an expensive luxury product. Means-tested relief is worth pursuing, but "state school graduates" writ large are not an especially sympathetic cohort.
    - nojito 5y ago
      SUNY still costs way less NYU and calling state universities luxury in the same sentence as NYU is quite hilarious.
      - tptacek 5y ago
        Just because a Maserati Quattroporte costs $100k doesn't mean a BMW 5-Series isn't a luxury.
- Ekaros 5y ago
  I would reasonably support these bailouts if everyone else could get the same money as lump sum... But that would be insane in itself...
TrackerFF 5y ago
From what I've read, schools like NYU, Columbia, etc. offer creative arts programs at nosebleed prices. These are legit schools, even very prestigious programs - but it's still a sort of "pay to play" prestige mill that attracts students with rich / well-off parents. But alas, when you come from a normal family, it's hard to justify $50k-$80k/yr tuition - especially if you're not connected, or have backup plans.
notjulianjaynes 5y ago
> Visual and Performing Arts 17% The NYU Tisch School of the Arts is widely considered one of the best film schools in the world. I'm sure it graduates plenty of starving artists, but certainly also a disproportionate number go on to be incredibly successful compared to the same degree from your standard community college. It should still be less expensive. Take a look at some of the alumni: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NYU_Tisch_School_of_the_Arts_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NYU_Tisch_School_of_th...

VWWHFSfQ 5y ago

you can get a masters in public health at a school that doesn't cost 80k a year in one of the most expensive cities in the world you know I'm getting real tired of hearing these sob stories about not being able to pay for rent and food and being saddled with a lifetime of debt because you make very poor decisions

bingohbangoh 5y ago
Even crazier is that tuition went up at its fastest rate last year apparently -- _even during the pandemic!_. People are more thirsty than ever for college. This is one of the things I got most wrong about the Pandemic (the other being they wouldn't dare attempt a third lockdown).
- cm2187 5y ago
  I think it is rather the result of money printing, and particularly how it was introduced (financial system). Plus labour shortage for highly educated people which drove up their salary. As a result all the activities of the upper middle class have known high inflation: expensive restaurants, prime real estate, art, college tuitions, etc. [edit] I guess also the explosion of the chinese upper middle class should also be a big factor.
- redis_mlc 5y ago
  [dead]
chmod600 5y ago
There's something to be said about whether we are encouraging bad decisions, though. We're talking about an 18 year old (many of whom have never had any financial responsibility at all) making a decision that could saddle them with hundreds of thousands in debt that can't be escaped even by bankruptcy. We need to stop literally underwriting (as taxpayers) bad decisions. And private banks that do underwrite such decisions need to face the possibility of bankruptcy in some form (maybe not quick and easy bankruptcy after 2 years, but something).
- 5y ago

malshe 5y ago

Without paywall: https://www.wsj.com/articles/nyu-college-graduate-parent-student-loans-11639618241?st=536k8joa3ikiz4b&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink https://www.wsj.com/articles/nyu-college-graduate-parent-stu...

ianbutler 5y ago

As an NYU CS grad, can confirm it is egregious. If I had to do it over I would have gone to a different university, the education at NYU was not unlike other much less expensive universities in fact I had a lot of doubts about quality save some select professors. The only reason I'm fine with my loans is because I'm a very well comped SWE. I don't personally have a lot of sympathy for people who do a liberal arts degree at NYU though. At least I knew I'd be able to pay this all back with some high degree of certainty.

nojito 5y ago
You should have sympathy because those individuals were lied to in terms of employment opportunities post degree.
- ericmay 5y ago
  What was the lie?
  - gravypod 5y ago
    Every college I've researched claims that their graduates, on average, make $XXX,XXX/year. That number is usually enough to pay back their tuition. Unfortunately, what they don't tell you, is that is very bimodal.
    - Ekaros 5y ago
      If you are researching colleges. Maybe we should already expect the students to do some basic research outside it. Or in general on college level education. Finding lot of discussion about loans and employability has been entirely possible for years now. There is no excuse not to do this research for one of the most important decisions in their life.
      - gravypod 5y ago
        Throughout highschool I was told by many adults that the internet wasn't an "accurate source for information" and "don't believe what you read online" etc. I obviously ignored them. I was also told multiple times by my guidance counselor in highschool that Software Engineers needed to be very good at math and that I would never succeed in that field and I should choose something more realistic. I also ignored her. I'm now a SWE at a FAANG company. I've helped scale multiple start ups (multiple of which are successful and one of which was just acquired). Society is set up in such a way that people are trained to: 1. Respect authority figures 2. Follow what your parents tell you to do 3. Your education is the most important thing in your life (between 10 and 30 yo) All of these things lead to situations where people are more than willing to take out massive loans because everyone in their life tells them "it will be ok!" and "don't think about the money right now, it's about the experience" which is one of the most disgusting ideas that I think is perpetuated. Basically when your parents, your teachers, your politicians, your peers, etc are doing something it's hard to think "that's a bad idea".

hermannj314 5y ago

I never understood why the government role in higher education is fixated on the financing. Pay cash for school, live modestly - no bailout. Get a loan for school, use cash for immodest lifestyle - free money! If college loans are a problem, then the cost of college is the real problem. Let's not use government to selectively reward individuals based on how they paid rather than the price they paid. I oppose any student loan reform or student loan bailouts for this reason. Do not believe the magician's misdirection, focus on the real issue.

Ekaros 5y ago
Reform is clearly needed. Possibly moving toward more market based approach, allowing bankruptcies or hugely limiting allowed amounts. Bailouts just look like rewarding poor decisions...
HPsquared 5y ago
If anything, student loans are already too subsidized, and their prevalence pushes up the cost of education. If student loans were on similar terms to a standard loan, most people wouldn't take them.
- hermannj314 5y ago
  Fair point. Reversing the mess the government created through subsidized loans would help address prices. For several years the press has reported "government bailout for student loans is coming" and you add to this historically low interest rates. And then we are surprised when people take out lots of student loans and defer repaying them as long as possible. And now the press uses that as evidence of why we need a bailout.
wolverine876 5y ago
> use cash for immodest lifestyle Do you have evidence of this? Most students I know who have borrowed are struggling. Many can't afford books, housing, food. People are living on ramen. > free money Loans aren't free money. Do we say the same about loans to wealthy people and corporations? I think there is often (I don't know about you) a bias against students or the poor as inherently untrustworthy or just unworthy, and therefore credit to them will just be used for bad things. That is, the issue is the preconceived notions, not the economics or policy. > If college loans are a problem, then the cost of college is the real problem. Let's not use government to selectively reward individuals based on how they paid rather than the price they paid. Education is essential to the general welfare. We can't wait for the perfect system and lose another generation of talent to waste (not developing) or bankruptcy; we need to address that is happening now.

neonate 5y ago

https://archive.md/fjnf1 https://archive.md/fjnf1

rootusrootus 5y ago

We should end student loans as they exist today. Too easy to get, and the interest rate is usurious given they can never be discharged in bankruptcy. If we as a society want college to be more attainable, we should build more of them and subsidize the tuition so kids can afford to pay for it with private loans of a reasonable size, or through working part time while in school. For so many reasons, we cannot do loan forgiveness. This is not a one-time problem with a one-time solution. It would present a huge moral hazard to do it once with a naive expectation it wouldn't need to be done again in a few years. Plus, it amounts to a giveaway to people who are by definition elite, which is political suicide. I get that the people paying student loans feel like it is a crushing debt they can never seem to escape, but college graduates earn significantly more, on average, so they are the least deserving of a handout.

throwaway_224 5y ago

I graduated NYU last year. I posted in reddit one of the top posts on NYU's page something like "how to make nyu cheap." All said and done I ended with roughly 60k in debt, which isn't bad since I work in finance. That said, I know someone who went to NYU to become a teacher and ended with 280k in debt. At this point a lot of people I know are "debtmaxxing" and banking on USD hyperinflation. For myself, I suspect that student loans will be forgiven before 2030, so I just pay the absolute minimum.

Aunche 5y ago

At least while I was applying to college, NYU was notorious for offering very generous first year scholarships, and being very stingy with 4 year scholarships, which led to students believing it was more affordable than it actually was.

yardie 5y ago
Not just NYU. My school had generous scholarships for freshmen. Then each subsequent year, as your loan limit was allowed to increase, you were expected to take on more loans. You could reapply every year for some of those scholarships but many were need based or one time only. As a first generation student it felt very bait and switch like.
- seibelj 5y ago
  Boston University was well known for having high GPA requirements and being notorious for grade deflation and mandatory scaling of grades. B’s were very common, but with most scholarships requiring a 3.3 average it was easy to slip right under and need debt. I had several friends who lost their scholarships after freshman year.
m_ke 5y ago
Same thing happened to me at Columbia, I was paying 10K a year until my senior year when they randomly decided that I didn't qualify for any aid and was forced to take out a 60K loan to finish my degree.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  sounds like a trap "Arbitrary and Capricious means doing something according to one’s will or caprice and therefore conveying a notion of a tendency to abuse the possession of power. In U.S this is one of the basic standards for review of appeals."
  - gruez 5y ago
    Is that any different than various services (eg. cable) that offer a first year discount?

game_the0ry 5y ago

I anticipate there will be a lot of comments about how these folks should not have gone to an expensive private uni, could have made choices to avoid debt, the burden is on the borrower and it is their responsibility, etc - all true and valid points. However, the US is approaching a situation where the student loan problem will be an "everyone" problem, not just a borrower - I believe a ~$1.6 Trillion debt burden is a significant enough drag on the economy to be felt by everyone, and will be more painful not only for borrowers who can not pay but also non-borrowers who are indirectly affected. The money that could have been used to pay for housing, services, etc, will instead go to student loans. If I was a local business owner, I would think about that. If you are homeowner, imagine what the price of you home could be if buyers did not have student loans. I hope people realize this soon.

xuki 5y ago
> If you are homeowner, imagine what the price of you home could be if buyers did not have student loans. Are you saying student loan reduces house price? Sound like a win.
- chasd00 5y ago
  Imagine what the price of your house could be if a mortgage loan was guaranteed by the US government. You could set a price wherever you want, the buyers could get a loan from a lender for any amount.
jjcon 5y ago
So bail them out cause it will trickle down to those less fortunate? I've heard that somewhere before. Only about 12 percent of Americans have student loans and the largest burden is among those with advanced degrees.
- random314 5y ago
  Well, don't bail out the advanced degree holders. I like your rhetoric of the liberal POV as actually conservative - "trickle down". But it's not working.

paxys 5y ago

The only solution to fixing the student loan crisis is the one no one wants to hear – end federally backed student loans, and make the loans dischargeable in bankruptcy. The economic brunt of a bad loan needs to be felt by the issuing bank, not be distributed among taxpayers. When lenders get more stringent about handing out hundreds of thousands of dollars to teenagers, colleges will automatically have to scale back fees in order to get people to apply. No more 5-star hotel rates for shoebox dorms and cafeteria food. No more multi-million dollar pay packages for administrators and sports coaches. No more textbooks which cost $300 per class and need to be "refreshed" every year to prevent reuse. Prioritize lending for degrees which have a higher earning potential and so a higher chance of paying back. Favor students with a better academic record. Enforce a minimum GPA in order to keep getting funded. Issuing loans is a business, so treat it like a business rather than a social service with privatized gains and public losses. Conversely, the worst thing you can do for the problem is forgive existing loans. What do you then do when universities jack up tuition even more and students run up a tab of another trillion dollars over the next decade and refuse to pay, knowing that the government will bail them out anyways?

meowtimemania 5y ago
I think the multi-million pay packages for football coaches more often than not makes the schools money
- paxys 5y ago
  This is largely a myth. Sports are a huge money sink for colleges. From https://www.bestcolleges.com/news/analysis/2020/11/20/do-college-sports-make-money/ https://www.bestcolleges.com/news/analysis/2020/11/20/do-col... : > In total, then, only 25 of the approximately 1,100 schools across 102 conferences in the NCAA made money on college sports last year
  - SilasX 5y ago
    Yes, that’s looking at the college’s entire academic department, which covers very unprofitable sports (in part because of mandates). Parent’s comment was about (massively popular) football.

wolverine876 5y ago

It's a popular trend here, and in other places, to dismiss the value of higher education - e.g., 'it's all the same'.[0] (I hear it often from people who already have such educations and expect their children to have them too!) But if we use our educations, we know that popular trends are an exceedingly poor means of understanding the world - it's hard to think of more dangerous, less reliable signals. Popular trends are astrology, witchcraft, conspiracy theories, lynchings, etc. Thinking about it just a little, probably anyone serious would much rather learn personally from the world's leading experts in the field, with every resource (labs, research libraries, etc.), and among brilliant, hardworking, serious classmates. Or would you be happy learning from just any person, with uneven resources and among people of questionable talent and motivation? In our industry, you want to learn software development from Google Fellows or the local front end shop? If the latter seems sufficient, or if you just want to hang out and take some classes like high school, I agree: Don't waste money on a top school (unless you do it cynically, just for the status and connections). If you're serious, I don't see how there is any question. I do agree that there's a bit of a mismatch - many people see college as High School Part II, just with harder classes and more personal independence - and colleges seem to cater to that. Not enough students conceive of what college really is, which is understandable given their high school backgrounds and lack of experience in the world: K-12 is all they know and they are experts in it with deeply engrained perspectives and habits after 13 years. The colleges need to help them see that it's a different world, and far wider and greater possibilties. Optimally, IMHO, college should wait for about 5-10 years of real world experience; how can you study the world without ever having experienced it? But as with anything, we have to work with imperfect institutions, systems, and people. [0] And that fits the general trend of degrading anything that stands in the way of elite power.

gentle 5y ago

I went to a state school rather than an expensive private school, went into a well paying career and paid off my student loans in 3 years. I'm sorry these students chose a different path, but there's no way the rest of us should take care of their terrible decisions. If you want to mandate some super low interest rate, then I'm fine with that, but just having the government pay off their loans is extremely offensive. If these people got into NYU in the first place then they're almost certainly from more well off families. They don't need the help.

pledess 5y ago

The WSJ article doesn't talk about differences in student-loan balances between men and women. It mentions one income source (egg harvesting) used by women students to reduce their amount of borrowing, but doesn't comment on other income sources, largely used by women, that have been discussed elsewhere (e.g., see the https://nyunews.com/2018/02/18/02-20-daddy-features/ https://nyunews.com/2018/02/18/02-20-daddy-features/ article). Data points such as "borrowed a median $74,000" might not be a good characterization of the experience of women at NYU. For the women borrowing much less than 74k, did their college career include traditional employment-based income sources that required skill sets learned at NYU, traditional employment-based income sources that didn't require anything learned at NYU, or other income sources that potentially have long-term effects on physical and mental health?

gentle 5y ago

This is something that students and parents should take into account when they're trying to figure out what school students should go to. In other words, stop going to NYU. It's a bad investment of time or money.

65 5y ago

Maybe part of the issue here is more about financial incompetence causing these bad decisions in the first place. Teaching a kid how to be wise with their money is unbelievably valuable. Just teaching kids how to spend and save their money can point them in the right direction when making a huge financial decision for college. I had the experience of managing, saving, and earning my own money as a kid, and when the time came to go to college, I had the choice between a more expensive school and my local state school. I chose my local state school, got basically the same education, and was able to pay off my debt in a year after graduating. I'm at a good spot professionally so it didn't end up mattering if I went to the more expensive school.