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There are also plenty of people who like their coworkers and enjoy spending time with them each day. I don't think everybody finds work to be an unfulfilling dr

There are also plenty of people who like their coworkers and enjoy spending time with them each day. I don't think everybody finds work to be an unfulfilling drain on their leisure time

coldtea 5y ago
>There are also plenty of people who like their coworkers and enjoy spending time with them each day Of course. Especially those that hate their families (or themselves and can't spend time alone).
- filleduchaos 5y ago
  Not everyone is painfully asocial - and I say this as a rather asocial person myself who's only ever held remote or remote-friendly roles. I couldn't imagine wilfully remaining at a job with coworkers so toxic that regular interaction with them is an ordeal.
  - pseudalopex 5y ago
    Preferring to spend time with friends and family is normal. It doesn't mean someone's coworkers are so toxic that regular interaction with them is an ordeal.
    - colinmorelli 5y ago
      That very sentence has already suggested that your coworkers are not your friends (or else they'd be in the group of "friends and family" that you enjoy spending time with). I think the very point of GP is that there are many people who do, in fact, develop friendships with their coworkers.
      - jtr1 5y ago
        I've certainly made many friends through work, but in my experience a for-profit workplace is an artificial environment with a lot of distorting incentives that make it more challenging to establish genuine friendship.
        colinmorelli 5y ago
        Fair enough. I believe there's some truth to this. I do think it's hard to separate between genuine friendships and transactional relationships that happen to be symbiotic while you're working together (but will rapidly deteriorate when you don't). Sometimes I do wonder how much of this is the fault of skewed incentives of the workplace, versus just a paradox of human interaction. We think we're developing friendships by spending a lot of time with people, without realizing that time spent is of a transactional nature rather than furthering some connection. I spend a lot of time with coworkers, therefore a feel close to them. However, when asked, I realize I know almost nothing about them below the surface. In any case, I can appreciate that forming friendships at work can be more challenging. But I do believe many people (including myself) have done this, and when it works it can be incredibly powerful and make work much more enjoyable.
        pjerem 5y ago
        Right. I did lost a long time friend when he became my manager.
      - ajkdhcb2 5y ago
        If you want to hang out or work with your friends, nobody is stopping you. Maybe you should make mutual friends that don't need management to force them to be with you
        colinmorelli 5y ago
        To be clear, I'm not saying that employers should force employees to work in an office so they can spend time with their friends. I'm simply saying that those people who have developed friendships with the people they work with likely don't view "going to work" as a painful, soul-sucking task they have to perform simply to achieve a paycheck. It is, in fact, possible to simultaneously realize that you're in a transactional business relationship with an employer who is compensating you for services, and that those around you are also in that same relationship, and to use that as a common ground upon which a friendship can be built that makes the transactional relationship less painful. I also believe there are some people who do, genuinely, enjoy the work they do. The general point I'm trying to make throughout this thread is that it'd be great if folks realized that there is a diversity to opinions about work much in the same way as there is diversity to every other thing in life and it's simply not a binary choice between "work is wonderful and I want to spend my life at the office" and "work is awful and I can't stand commuting, sharing space with coworkers, paying egregious rent, etc." As with most things in life, the reality is most people live somewhere in the middle of that gradient. Acknowledging that is helpful if we want to make progress towards optimal, inclusive solutions.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - lolgatekeeping 5y ago
        Why do they have to be? It is strange that there is some unspoken stipulation that they NEED to be to have a good working relationship. I can talk to my co-workers about why webpack sucks without wanting to cook with them.
  - coldtea 5y ago
    >I couldn't imagine wilfully remaining at a job with coworkers so toxic that regular interaction with them is an ordeal. For my argument to work, it doesn't need to be an ordeal though: just less preferable to family, kids, and friends.
- staticautomatic 5y ago
  Why are so many people getting divorced today? It’s because most of us don’t have extended families anymore. It used to be that when a man and a woman got married, the bride got a lot more people to talk to about everything. The groom got a lot more pals to tell dumb jokes to. A few Americans, but very few, still have extended families. The Navahos. The Kennedys. But most of us, if we get married nowadays, are just one more person for the other person. The groom gets one more pal, but it’s a woman. The woman gets one more person to talk to about everything, but it’s a man. When a couple has an argument, they may think it’s about money or power or sex, or how to raise the kids, or whatever. What they’re really saying to each other, though, without realizing it, is this: “You are not enough people!” — Kurt Vonnegut
d3ntb3ev1l 5y ago
In the Bay Area I found it to be nothing but a draining slog when not able to work remote
ajsnigrutin 5y ago
Yep, random talks about random stuff, lunch together, practical jokes,... if you're a person who can make friends easily, even at work, you're missing a lot.
- subsection1h 5y ago
  > random talks about random stuff, lunch together, practical jokes Thanks for reminding me why I started working remotely 15 years ago.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> I don't think everybody finds work to be an unfulfilling drain on their leisure time Well said. WFH doesn't fix a bad job or a draining company culture. If your job is miserable and you can't stand your coworkers then you need to find another job, remote or not.
- pseudalopex 5y ago
  Preferring to spend time with friends and family doesn't mean someone can't stand their coworkers.
- jtr1 5y ago
  I have fantastic colleagues and I'd still rather work remote. My commute easily gets up to 10 hours / week on a miserable public transit system. I prefer to spend that extra 10 hours with my family, friends, and neighbors, or on household chores, or hobbies, or just relaxing. I certainly understand that some people prefer the buzz of the office and I support people working in the environment that best suits their needs and personalities. That said, having worked with an effective team in a hybrid environment (even before the pandemic) the idea of companies forcing people back into the office mostly reads as a lack of trust in the people they've hired. To me, that indicates a different set of problems.
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    I’m also seeing a lot of sunk cost thinking on the part of management, and have seen a few cringe worthy “remember how great the office was?” stuff from execs. I think when you’re a C level, the size and appeal of the office gets melded into your ego, and you can’t get the same boost from people working from home.
swiley 5y ago
>There are also plenty of people who like their coworkers and enjoy spending time with them You can do this without forcing them to be around you. That's apparently a new concept to a lot of people.
- Buttons840 5y ago
  Yes, I very much enjoy my co-workers. Several nights a week I find myself lying in bed and notice I'm grinning while thinking about some jokes or fun we've had together. We all work 100% remote.
  - itsokimbatman 5y ago
    Right?! My company was mostly remote pre-pandemic, and we've gotten more remote friendly during the last year. We share memes, conversation, movie reviews, etc. all over Slack/Zoom/Signal/etc. I'll just get random weird texts from one of my co-workers. It helps that a lot of us have worked together through multiple companies, but even the ones that haven't... I've honestly never met my manager in person just due to timing issues and the pandemic. Literally all of our interaction has been online and we have a really good relationship. As long as I have the choice, I will never go back to an office on a regular basis. WFH works for me.
    - rovr138 5y ago
      Similar setup. My team and I have been remote for years. We have channels on slack for non work stuff and we post memes, news, etc. We also have DM groups and just chat. We’ve got more people on the meme channels outside of the team. It’s a nice group. I even play games with some on my switch. I’ve only been to the company 3 times split between 2 locations. I’m looking to change teams soon. So advancement opportunities are there. Never met in person the manager, so it’s not that. Based on my experience, I believe it depends on the company, team culture and the people. By team culture I mean more how the team is run. Some are run very competitive others more collaborative.
    - xmprt 5y ago
      Off topic, but how does switching jobs along with your coworkers work? Do you guys all switch around the same time or is it more of a coincidence? Was it luck that you all passed the interview or was it more of a package deal where your current company wanted to hire you all together (ie, all or nothing)?
ashtonkem 5y ago
My coworkers are great, but do you know who is better? My family and friends.
- max46 5y ago
  then get a job that requires less hours and/or less transit. Don't try to work at a place that requires a very high dedication with a lot of hours and then use wfh as a way to lie to you boss to spend more time with your kids when you are supposed to work.
  - lolgatekeeping 5y ago
    God people enjoy their wife/husband and kids.......... THE HORROR. Way to gate keep people's preferences. I don't lie to my coworkers when I say I want to be home by 7 to put my child to bed. You are delusional if you think that is abnormal. Also people can work wherever the frack (had to change to not offend the SF crowd) they please. You are correlating high dedication with high output which absolutely not the case quantitatively speaking. Gatekeep harder please... (lol flagged for a naughty word, sorry it hurt the tendies)
  - pjerem 5y ago
    That’s not what GP implied.
  - greycol 5y ago
    You can use a 15 minute break to be with family if you WFH. You can't use a 15 minute break to be with your family and complete a >15 minute round trip. If you believe being in the office is required, fine, but if that's your criteria for what a "very high dedication" employee is then you'll need to pay more remuneration(or offer other perks) than a business that requires the same skill set and dedication without requiring the employees to be in the office.
- threeseed 5y ago
  Most engineers don't have a family. And some don't have close friends. Don't assume that your view of the world is the same for everyone.
lolgatekeeping 5y ago
Not everyone who prefers to WFH finds "work to be an unfulfilling drain on their leisure time", they just prefer to WFH for a myriad of reasons. (I like spending more time with my child, oof). If you aren't a middle manager and the employee is productive, then honestly why do you have an opinion?
foogazi 5y ago
> There are also plenty of people who like their coworkers and enjoy spending time with them each day. Not saying you are wrong, but The vast majority of people first get jobs to earn money THEN meet the coworkers AND having no other option besides interacting with coworkers during work hours, will try to get along
- threeseed 5y ago
  The vast majority of IT people in Silicon Valley can yell on the street and get a job. So then it becomes which company has the best culture, values, people, environment etc.
  - xmprt 5y ago
    I think that line of thinking will be quickly replaced. Better culture, free food, people, environment, etc. all mattered when employees were expected to spend 8 hours a day at work (and often longer). If more companies allow working from home, then that trumps a lot of the other perks because employees can make their own perks such as more flexible hours, shorter/no commute, living where they want to instead of being forced to live close to the office, etc.
    - YuriNiyazov 5y ago
      "culture" is not just what happens in the office, it is the processes and norms of the company. They are more important remotely, not less.
  - yread 5y ago
    Why do so many people work at ad and spyware companies then?
    - biztos 5y ago
      Assuming you mean Google and Facebook et al for "ad companies" then I guess it's the very high compensation and nice work environment as well as the chance to work on super cool tech with really smart people if you're lucky or sufficiently motivated? Of course most folks there probably work on super uncool tech with very average people, but those are also getting paid a whole lot of money and can enjoy the nice work environment, etc. Morality, even if it were universal, is not a prime motivator in career choices for most people.
antpls 5y ago
Great, but that's not a reason to force people who don't want to do it
dangerface 5y ago
If you like your coworkers that much you could just talk to them all day like at the office. You can then meet up with them for pints after work too. Im not 20 any more so the idea of going for pints after work isn't appealing to me anymore.

There are also plenty of people who like their coworkers and enjoy spending time with them each day. I don't think everybody finds work to be an unfulfilling drain on their leisure time

coldtea 5y ago

>There are also plenty of people who like their coworkers and enjoy spending time with them each day Of course. Especially those that hate their families (or themselves and can't spend time alone).

filleduchaos 5y ago
Not everyone is painfully asocial - and I say this as a rather asocial person myself who's only ever held remote or remote-friendly roles. I couldn't imagine wilfully remaining at a job with coworkers so toxic that regular interaction with them is an ordeal.
- pseudalopex 5y ago
  Preferring to spend time with friends and family is normal. It doesn't mean someone's coworkers are so toxic that regular interaction with them is an ordeal.
  - colinmorelli 5y ago
    That very sentence has already suggested that your coworkers are not your friends (or else they'd be in the group of "friends and family" that you enjoy spending time with). I think the very point of GP is that there are many people who do, in fact, develop friendships with their coworkers.
    - jtr1 5y ago
      I've certainly made many friends through work, but in my experience a for-profit workplace is an artificial environment with a lot of distorting incentives that make it more challenging to establish genuine friendship.
      - colinmorelli 5y ago
        Fair enough. I believe there's some truth to this. I do think it's hard to separate between genuine friendships and transactional relationships that happen to be symbiotic while you're working together (but will rapidly deteriorate when you don't). Sometimes I do wonder how much of this is the fault of skewed incentives of the workplace, versus just a paradox of human interaction. We think we're developing friendships by spending a lot of time with people, without realizing that time spent is of a transactional nature rather than furthering some connection. I spend a lot of time with coworkers, therefore a feel close to them. However, when asked, I realize I know almost nothing about them below the surface. In any case, I can appreciate that forming friendships at work can be more challenging. But I do believe many people (including myself) have done this, and when it works it can be incredibly powerful and make work much more enjoyable.
      - pjerem 5y ago
        Right. I did lost a long time friend when he became my manager.
    - ajkdhcb2 5y ago
      If you want to hang out or work with your friends, nobody is stopping you. Maybe you should make mutual friends that don't need management to force them to be with you
      - colinmorelli 5y ago
        To be clear, I'm not saying that employers should force employees to work in an office so they can spend time with their friends. I'm simply saying that those people who have developed friendships with the people they work with likely don't view "going to work" as a painful, soul-sucking task they have to perform simply to achieve a paycheck. It is, in fact, possible to simultaneously realize that you're in a transactional business relationship with an employer who is compensating you for services, and that those around you are also in that same relationship, and to use that as a common ground upon which a friendship can be built that makes the transactional relationship less painful. I also believe there are some people who do, genuinely, enjoy the work they do. The general point I'm trying to make throughout this thread is that it'd be great if folks realized that there is a diversity to opinions about work much in the same way as there is diversity to every other thing in life and it's simply not a binary choice between "work is wonderful and I want to spend my life at the office" and "work is awful and I can't stand commuting, sharing space with coworkers, paying egregious rent, etc." As with most things in life, the reality is most people live somewhere in the middle of that gradient. Acknowledging that is helpful if we want to make progress towards optimal, inclusive solutions.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - lolgatekeeping 5y ago
      Why do they have to be? It is strange that there is some unspoken stipulation that they NEED to be to have a good working relationship. I can talk to my co-workers about why webpack sucks without wanting to cook with them.
- coldtea 5y ago
  >I couldn't imagine wilfully remaining at a job with coworkers so toxic that regular interaction with them is an ordeal. For my argument to work, it doesn't need to be an ordeal though: just less preferable to family, kids, and friends.
staticautomatic 5y ago
Why are so many people getting divorced today? It’s because most of us don’t have extended families anymore. It used to be that when a man and a woman got married, the bride got a lot more people to talk to about everything. The groom got a lot more pals to tell dumb jokes to. A few Americans, but very few, still have extended families. The Navahos. The Kennedys. But most of us, if we get married nowadays, are just one more person for the other person. The groom gets one more pal, but it’s a woman. The woman gets one more person to talk to about everything, but it’s a man. When a couple has an argument, they may think it’s about money or power or sex, or how to raise the kids, or whatever. What they’re really saying to each other, though, without realizing it, is this: “You are not enough people!” — Kurt Vonnegut

d3ntb3ev1l 5y ago

In the Bay Area I found it to be nothing but a draining slog when not able to work remote

ajsnigrutin 5y ago

Yep, random talks about random stuff, lunch together, practical jokes,... if you're a person who can make friends easily, even at work, you're missing a lot.

subsection1h 5y ago
> random talks about random stuff, lunch together, practical jokes Thanks for reminding me why I started working remotely 15 years ago.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> I don't think everybody finds work to be an unfulfilling drain on their leisure time Well said. WFH doesn't fix a bad job or a draining company culture. If your job is miserable and you can't stand your coworkers then you need to find another job, remote or not.

pseudalopex 5y ago
Preferring to spend time with friends and family doesn't mean someone can't stand their coworkers.
jtr1 5y ago
I have fantastic colleagues and I'd still rather work remote. My commute easily gets up to 10 hours / week on a miserable public transit system. I prefer to spend that extra 10 hours with my family, friends, and neighbors, or on household chores, or hobbies, or just relaxing. I certainly understand that some people prefer the buzz of the office and I support people working in the environment that best suits their needs and personalities. That said, having worked with an effective team in a hybrid environment (even before the pandemic) the idea of companies forcing people back into the office mostly reads as a lack of trust in the people they've hired. To me, that indicates a different set of problems.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  I’m also seeing a lot of sunk cost thinking on the part of management, and have seen a few cringe worthy “remember how great the office was?” stuff from execs. I think when you’re a C level, the size and appeal of the office gets melded into your ego, and you can’t get the same boost from people working from home.

swiley 5y ago

>There are also plenty of people who like their coworkers and enjoy spending time with them You can do this without forcing them to be around you. That's apparently a new concept to a lot of people.

Buttons840 5y ago
Yes, I very much enjoy my co-workers. Several nights a week I find myself lying in bed and notice I'm grinning while thinking about some jokes or fun we've had together. We all work 100% remote.
- itsokimbatman 5y ago
  Right?! My company was mostly remote pre-pandemic, and we've gotten more remote friendly during the last year. We share memes, conversation, movie reviews, etc. all over Slack/Zoom/Signal/etc. I'll just get random weird texts from one of my co-workers. It helps that a lot of us have worked together through multiple companies, but even the ones that haven't... I've honestly never met my manager in person just due to timing issues and the pandemic. Literally all of our interaction has been online and we have a really good relationship. As long as I have the choice, I will never go back to an office on a regular basis. WFH works for me.
  - rovr138 5y ago
    Similar setup. My team and I have been remote for years. We have channels on slack for non work stuff and we post memes, news, etc. We also have DM groups and just chat. We’ve got more people on the meme channels outside of the team. It’s a nice group. I even play games with some on my switch. I’ve only been to the company 3 times split between 2 locations. I’m looking to change teams soon. So advancement opportunities are there. Never met in person the manager, so it’s not that. Based on my experience, I believe it depends on the company, team culture and the people. By team culture I mean more how the team is run. Some are run very competitive others more collaborative.
  - xmprt 5y ago
    Off topic, but how does switching jobs along with your coworkers work? Do you guys all switch around the same time or is it more of a coincidence? Was it luck that you all passed the interview or was it more of a package deal where your current company wanted to hire you all together (ie, all or nothing)?

ashtonkem 5y ago

My coworkers are great, but do you know who is better? My family and friends.

max46 5y ago
then get a job that requires less hours and/or less transit. Don't try to work at a place that requires a very high dedication with a lot of hours and then use wfh as a way to lie to you boss to spend more time with your kids when you are supposed to work.
- lolgatekeeping 5y ago
  God people enjoy their wife/husband and kids.......... THE HORROR. Way to gate keep people's preferences. I don't lie to my coworkers when I say I want to be home by 7 to put my child to bed. You are delusional if you think that is abnormal. Also people can work wherever the frack (had to change to not offend the SF crowd) they please. You are correlating high dedication with high output which absolutely not the case quantitatively speaking. Gatekeep harder please... (lol flagged for a naughty word, sorry it hurt the tendies)
- pjerem 5y ago
  That’s not what GP implied.
- greycol 5y ago
  You can use a 15 minute break to be with family if you WFH. You can't use a 15 minute break to be with your family and complete a >15 minute round trip. If you believe being in the office is required, fine, but if that's your criteria for what a "very high dedication" employee is then you'll need to pay more remuneration(or offer other perks) than a business that requires the same skill set and dedication without requiring the employees to be in the office.
threeseed 5y ago
Most engineers don't have a family. And some don't have close friends. Don't assume that your view of the world is the same for everyone.

lolgatekeeping 5y ago

Not everyone who prefers to WFH finds "work to be an unfulfilling drain on their leisure time", they just prefer to WFH for a myriad of reasons. (I like spending more time with my child, oof). If you aren't a middle manager and the employee is productive, then honestly why do you have an opinion?

foogazi 5y ago

> There are also plenty of people who like their coworkers and enjoy spending time with them each day. Not saying you are wrong, but The vast majority of people first get jobs to earn money THEN meet the coworkers AND having no other option besides interacting with coworkers during work hours, will try to get along

threeseed 5y ago
The vast majority of IT people in Silicon Valley can yell on the street and get a job. So then it becomes which company has the best culture, values, people, environment etc.
- xmprt 5y ago
  I think that line of thinking will be quickly replaced. Better culture, free food, people, environment, etc. all mattered when employees were expected to spend 8 hours a day at work (and often longer). If more companies allow working from home, then that trumps a lot of the other perks because employees can make their own perks such as more flexible hours, shorter/no commute, living where they want to instead of being forced to live close to the office, etc.
  - YuriNiyazov 5y ago
    "culture" is not just what happens in the office, it is the processes and norms of the company. They are more important remotely, not less.
- yread 5y ago
  Why do so many people work at ad and spyware companies then?
  - biztos 5y ago
    Assuming you mean Google and Facebook et al for "ad companies" then I guess it's the very high compensation and nice work environment as well as the chance to work on super cool tech with really smart people if you're lucky or sufficiently motivated? Of course most folks there probably work on super uncool tech with very average people, but those are also getting paid a whole lot of money and can enjoy the nice work environment, etc. Morality, even if it were universal, is not a prime motivator in career choices for most people.

antpls 5y ago

Great, but that's not a reason to force people who don't want to do it

dangerface 5y ago

If you like your coworkers that much you could just talk to them all day like at the office. You can then meet up with them for pints after work too. Im not 20 any more so the idea of going for pints after work isn't appealing to me anymore.