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I'm an avid diver; got certified as soon as I turned 12 years old and have had some great adventures and life lessons diving and continuing my training and edu

I'm an avid diver; got certified as soon as I turned 12 years old and have had some great adventures and life lessons diving and continuing my training and education. After many many conversations and encounters on dive boats with others (some seasoned, most tourist / rec divers) - I believe that 90% of the industry sees diving akin to a roller coaster ride instead of Skydiving. The risks with scuba are there for you to see and the situation can get deadly very quickly, but most people don't see the inherit risk or shrug it off. I've watched countless divers who are renting their bc/reg/tank/computer not even go through the most basic safety checks prior to diving. They simply trust the operator and jump in. This is not a "batteries included" sport. It is that lack of preparedness that leads to fatal accidents, people who don't respect the sport for what it is and the dangers that come with it. If you don't plan your dives, understand the dive profile, then you are going to panic of make a stupid decision when you shouldn't. When I was younger, technical dives; cave and deep, where my two favorite things to do, the amount of planning it took to pull off the dives was enjoyable and I enjoyed pushing myself in to those situations and the focus it required. Now that I have kids, I won't do those dives anymore b/c I understand that when you plan them, there is a greater than 0 chance that you don't come back and its not worth it to me to take that chance.

spaetzleesser 5y ago
“not even go through the most basic safety checks prior to diving” From my experience the dive operators in tourist spots often don’t want you to touch anything. Kind of makes sense because most tourists like myself only have a very vague recollection of the procedure.
- Starwatcher2001 5y ago
  If you really have only a vague recollection of basic safety checks you shouldn't be diving - seriously.
  - topynate 5y ago
    In Israel a short refresher course is mandatory if you haven't dived for six months. IMO any reputable company should require the same.
    - whymauri 5y ago
      This should be mandatory for a lot of sports, honestly. Assisted climbing (lead, top-roping) comes to mind. Kinda crazy that in many gyms you can get on a wall with no verification that your belay knows what they're doing.
    - izacus 5y ago
      As far as I know they're mandatory everywhere, but pretty much noone checks this. If you don't sign up yourself, it's not happening.
  - jgalt212 5y ago
    or using Tesla cars in autopilot mode as an equivalent to a self-driving car.
  - random5634 5y ago
    Plenty of resorts and other destinations offer resort and discovery diving. You do need be 10 years old, but no prior experience needed, after some basics some places let you do 1-2 open water dives in the same day! All equip is provided. You really DO NOT configure any of your stuff on these dives (you do get comfortable breathing underwater). It's a scuba dive "experience". Unless you are a diver please don't comment with this type of snark - seriously. " Discover Scuba Diving is a quick and easy introduction to what it takes to explore the underwater world. To sign up for a PADI Discover Scuba Diving experience, you must be at least 10 years old. No prior experience with scuba diving is necessary, but you need to be in reasonable physical health. Are you ready to try it out? "
    - ddls 5y ago
      What instructors and dive-masters actually do (or should / are trained to do) for those dives is hold onto the first stage regulator at the top of the tank for the entire duration of the dive and never pass 12 meters. The diver never even needs to worry about buoyancy. We use to call them Lipton (tea) dives, because it was just dipping tourists into the water ;) They are absolutely 100% safe when done according to the requirements.
      - random5634 5y ago
        12 meters would have been "deep" where I was :) I called them "disco" dives. Dive down a bit, show them some lights and some fish turn around a few times and back up. A play on the discovery label. But yeah, the grumpy "master" divers will be yelling at you from shore about the whole thing! Def want 100% contact from start to finish, and if you keep dive to 8-10 meters or less (hard bottom) helps. Just throw some statues / structures down there to look at. Things to watch for. Folks who can't equalize - just come up or do a super shallow route if you can. And def need to make sure folks can breathe comfortably underwater (shallow water / cow pen). Also doesn't need to be long, it's about the experience. Some idiots take advantage of the depth to extend time which is silly. Another labor was resort dive, but wasn't sure what differences / similarities were between all these experiences.
    - Starwatcher2001 5y ago
  - ddls 5y ago
    You should, according to PADI norms, be offered a refresher dive. It costs $10 more and you spend 15 minutes with a dive master reviewing basic skills before a normal dive. The dive master also then knows to keep you close during the dive.
    - mohaine 5y ago
      This is exactly what the resorts I've been to do. Dives are free (All inclusive, Couples Jamaica) but if don't have a dive book with a signed off dive in the last year it is 50$ for a refresher/skills test. I've normally felt really safe on these but once there was way to many people for them all to be babysat and the group actually got split up due to 'issues' that the following guide had to help with.
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    Doesn't sound like the evidence backs this assertion, irrespective of your experience.
    - bonzini 5y ago
      What evidence? Evidence that lots of diving places take safety shortcuts? I myself got my first certifications with two amazing divers, they taught me very well and I had a lot of fun. However they also allowed people to take dives that they weren't certified for, because it was a small diving center they could only do two dives a day and they had to satisfy a wide range of divers. They did that with people that they had taught and knew well, and never had issues (certainly not a 60m compressed air dive as in the article!) but it did indeed make diving somewhat less safe.
      - renewiltord 5y ago
        Well, presumably if OP statement were true, recreational diving would involve large numbers of casualties. Casualties in recreational diving are somewhat rare, however, at 2 per million dives. Tourist dives are even safer since they do not perform advanced dives. Overall, the evidence does not support the view "If you really have only a vague recollection of basic safety checks you shouldn't be diving - seriously." Most tourists diving have only that and they're not dying in droves.
        bonzini 5y ago
        Of course, because things very rarely go south, especially to the point of someone dying. But still, spending half an hour reviewing some basic course material is not a huge thing to ask.
        renewiltord 5y ago
        Yes, it is certainly acceptable to ask for that. Not arguing that. Merely pointing out that there is no evidence for the assertion as stated.
  - bonzini 5y ago
    Absolutely, I am a somewhat experienced diver looking at certifications, but it's all too easy to forget things even if you have more than a vague recollection. Whenever I haven't dived for a couple years, I always ask an instructor to check on me while I prepare for the first dive, because I just don't trust myself. A dive or two later I am okay with helping newly certified divers both on shore and on the boat, but on the first dive after some time you should never overestimate your memory. Diving is safe if you know how to keep it safe.
    - thaumasiotes 5y ago
      > it's all too easy to forget things even if you have more than a vague recollection. Whenever I haven't dived for a couple years, I always ask an instructor to check on me while I prepare for the first dive, because I just don't trust myself. Do you have a checklist?
      - bonzini 5y ago
        If you mean something to go through physically (e.g. on paper) no, at least not for non-technical dives. There is a standard list of things to do, which I agree with the parent comment you should remember more than vaguely before diving.
      - nradov 5y ago
        Here is the recommended pre-dive checklist. https://gue.com/blog/the-gue-pre-dive-sequence/ https://gue.com/blog/the-gue-pre-dive-sequence/
- ghostpepper 5y ago
  It's a vicious cycle though: tourists don't know how to dive safely so instead of making sure they know, we'll just set up their gear and throw them in the water. Tourists learn that this is normal, and become even less likely to know how their gear should be configured, which makes the next operator more confident in their decision to not let the tourist set up their own gear. The crew on a dive boat in a tropical destination could very well be a 20 year old newly certified divemaster who's been up all night partying - there's no way I'm letting that person be responsible for making sure my air supply is connected and turned on before throwing me in the water, or any of the other standard pre-dive (BWRAF) safety checks that all certified divers are taught to do.
  - random5634 5y ago
    The problem dive locations have is a lot of people a) overstate experience or what they remember, b) are unfamiliar or have not tested equip they will be diving with and c) equip is not familiar to operator if they bring their stuff. People don't dive enough. So they buy all sorts of new stuff for their big new drift dive vacation. In some cases they've literally not been underwater with it for even 20 minutes. Also makes it harder to do an at a glance x-check for folks if you don't know their gear. And some gear harder to deal with (ie, adding weights underwater) if someone turns out underweighted. My own feeling - unless someone is current with their equip or has current diving - start with a hard bottom dive at 40'.
    - pge 5y ago
      You touch on what I think is an important consideration. A lot of people want to get into diving but just don't have the time to do it consistently enough to be fully on top of it. They have a few days vacation and go do a nice destination and expect to jump right back in at the same level they have done before, or even worse they buy some new gear as if gear makes up for practice. Like with a lot of things, there is no substitute for time in the water as a diver. Good decision making and technique come from lots of consistent practice, that most people don't have the time to do.
  - watwut 5y ago
- mxcrossb 5y ago
  How many of those tourists will die as a result of this? The data seems to suggest it’s vanishingly small.
  - dhimes 5y ago
    Exactly. Yes, cave diving is extremely dangerous. Deep diving also is dangerous. But there are dives, amazingly beautiful dives, that, while not devoid of risk, are very safe. Simple, shallow dives in the Caribbean, for example, where the benefit of the tank over snorkeling is just that you can stay down longer. Diving is wonderful. Get certified (but you don't have to be for some dives). I also sail. Also wonderful. Can be dangerous if you push the edge, but more likely embarrassing if you stay within your limits.
  - spaetzleesser 5y ago
    I don’t know the stats but from what I read a lot of accidents are not tourists but more serious divers who go below 20-30 meters. I haven’t heard about people getting injured while on regular tourist dives. Same with motorcycle riding or paragliding: it gets dangerous once you are beyond the beginner stage. I really don’t know what could go wrong on the typical tourist dive if the dive master keeps an eye on people and you don’t panic.
    - acjohnson55 5y ago
      That tracks with what I've heard, anecdotally. Accidents happen when people plan their own dives, go alone, push too far out of their comfort zone, or dive in conditions they aren't prepared for. These things are risk and consequence multipliers.
samdixon 5y ago
I have a similar theory about motorcycles. It's not batteries included, and some people ride like absolute madmen increasing the fatality rate.
- Syonyk 5y ago
  It's not actually the people riding like lunatics that manage to kill themselves on motorcycles at high rates. It's the old guys, riding back from "biker nights" at the bar, in full branded gear to include the do-rag and t-shirt. Lots of single rider, single bike accident with substantial alcohol in the blood. I've ridden for many years, and I also fly small planes, so I'm quite aware of my higher-than-average risk profile, and have gone through a lot of studies and reading to determine how I can, as much as possible, mitigate the risks while still enjoying the activities. For motorcycles, riding regularly, in full gear, while sober, gains you an awful lot. Riding infrequently is hard because you don't maintain the muscle memory, full gear turns most crashes into a "Invent new cusswords to remove the paint from your helmet, get up, and walk away" event (not all, obviously, but if you crash without gear, it's going to either suck a lot or end your life, and if you crash in gear it's a lot less likely to suck or kill you), and "bike nights at the bar" are just dumb. Knowing the limits of your bike is also helpful. I did a few track days, decided I didn't want to go down this route, but very much appreciated the chance to learn (in a safe environment) how much further than my normal limits I could ride on the bike. I couldn't ride anywhere near the limits of my bike, and knew it, but I expanded the envelope of "I know I can make this bike do that," and it was occasionally useful. The guys riding wheelies down the highway, against what most people believe, actually don't kill themselves terribly often. They know the limits of their bike, they know what they can make it do, and if there's something that requires a rapid response, they can make the bike do it on demand. One of those guys has a car pull out in front of them, they're either able to stop competently, or aim for the new gap, lean the bike over, cut through the gap, and flip off the car. The guy who rides a big cruiser 300 miles a year to the bar is more likely to mentally lock up, lock the brakes (before antilocks were standard), and slam into the side of said vehicle. Often while sliding on the ground first, having locked the rear tire. You also, if you're riding regularly, learn in a hurry how to identify the cars to watch out for. Maybe the slammed Honda with a fart can, park bench, and body damage is being driven by someone's mom, who is the most respectful person on the road. Don't care, I'm going to assume it's likely to do something very abrupt and stupid. And, often enough, they do. But if you wear gear, ride a lot, and understand the limits of your bike, you can manage a lot of riding miles, very safely. As much as people make fun of the old couples on Goldwings in the glow-stick yellow riding gear, a lot of those people ride 30k+ miles/yr, for many, many years, entirely safely. This is getting long, but general aviation accident records contain a lot of the same sort of thing - "Here's a short list of quick ways to die in an airplane. Don't do these and your life expectancy will increase dramatically." And nothing here means that you can control all the risk. Sometimes, shit happens and there's nothing you can do about it, despite all your preparations (Gann's Fate is the Hunter is a great read on the subject). But you can radically balance the scales in your direction with the right planning.
ethbr0 5y ago
First class of dive course at CWRU: Older Navy diver instructor walks in "So I know each of you is coming into this class with different levels of experience. What we're going to do first is a short test on your proficiency for 20 minutes. It will be graded on completeness, not correctness. You are not expected to know all the answers. I'm just interested in gauging what you know. Be aware, there are a lot of questions for the time, so I suggest you work quickly to get through all of them. Make sure you read and follow all instructions. Do not turn your paper over and start until I've handed all of them out and said go. hands out tests Go." 12/14 people in the class start furiously scribbling The first sentence on the test? "If you read this sentence, please continue to hold your pencil, but do not write on this test. Wait until time has expired." It always stuck with me as one of the best lessons about diving. Both in what you should do, and what our natural inclinations to actually do are.
- s_dev 5y ago
  Other versions of this test include the last question being "Don't answer any questions". The habit the teacher was trying to impart was "read the whole paper" first before answering any questions -- particularly if there are multiple choice questions.
  - deleted 5y ago
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  - throw1234651234 5y ago
    This is an irrational party(professor) trick that wastes everyone's time. An argument could be made for "read the (short) instructions at the start". An argument cannot be made for this. There is often very little value to skimming the entire question set before the exam.
    - henshao 5y ago
      I don't know about you, but for my tests on a curve where I might not be able to answer all the questions, doing the quick skim to answer the low hanging fruit before getting to the harder problems is a good way to make sure you don't run out of time and lose out.
deleted 5y ago
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lmilcin 5y ago
Which is to say diving is a sport that can be safe, but only assuming you are actively and honestly engaged in making it safe. I am not diving but I am sailing and for the most part sailing is a safe sport assuming you are prepped including mental preparation. If you are not, things can get downhill pretty fast. I consider diving one of the sports where you place yourself in a situation where you are dead by default unless you have paved the way for you to escape. Same is flying, skydiving but so is going into a corner in a car or motorcycle at the max speed you can handle.
- throw1234651234 5y ago
  Tangential, but driving never quite feels safe if you are pushing the car. At least not without inspecting the entire suspension every month or two. And that's ignoring anything internal, like your clutch fork giving out, or bending a rod, or your inner tie-rods disconnecting, or your brake cable tearing, or...
  - lmilcin 5y ago
    If you are pushing the car on a public road it means you have already failed at driving safely. Driving safely != not cause an accident Driving safely == not be in an accident You can be the best driver in the world driving the best car in the world and it doesn't matter, because some idiot will not look in their mirror when changing lanes and suddenly you are in an accident. To drive safely on a public road means to take care for your abilities and your car but most, most importantly, too give wide berth to other road users and to drive in a way that will minimize the accident if it happens. Understand everybody makes mistakes. If you aim to drive safely you need to make it your responsibility to drive in a way that will allow yourself and others make mistakes and still not cause an accident. In other words, give margin for error. Some examples: -- try to minimize your time in somebody's blind spot. -- observe traffic behind you, not just in front of you. I have on multiple occasions avoided a car hitting me from behind, twice at a difference of speed that looked like at least 100km/h. Being aware where the cars are gives you ability to act instinctively without hitting somebody. -- try to maintain slow relative speeds with regards to other road users. For example, never drive fast around cars stuck in traffic. -- always have a backup plan for every maneuver. For example, do not have fast closing speed to the car in front of you with a plan to change the lane just before you hit it. You need to maintain the ability to break in case the car in front of you suddenly slows down or in case you can't change the lane for whatever reason, etc.
margalabargala 5y ago
> I believe that 90% of the industry sees diving akin to a roller coaster ride instead of Skydiving As a licensed skydiver who got out of the sport partially because I didn't like the culture, I assure you that a huge amount of the skydiving industry also views it like a roller coaster ride.
PostThisTooFast 5y ago
I tell people that diving is a bit like flying. You preflight your equipment, use checklists, and monitor your condition at all times. It's equipment-centric, and one of the best things you can do is read accident reports. In flying, people die when they accidentally fly into instrument conditions. In diving, people die when they jump in without turning on their air.

spaetzleesser 5y ago

“not even go through the most basic safety checks prior to diving” From my experience the dive operators in tourist spots often don’t want you to touch anything. Kind of makes sense because most tourists like myself only have a very vague recollection of the procedure.

Starwatcher2001 5y ago
If you really have only a vague recollection of basic safety checks you shouldn't be diving - seriously.
- topynate 5y ago
  In Israel a short refresher course is mandatory if you haven't dived for six months. IMO any reputable company should require the same.
  - whymauri 5y ago
    This should be mandatory for a lot of sports, honestly. Assisted climbing (lead, top-roping) comes to mind. Kinda crazy that in many gyms you can get on a wall with no verification that your belay knows what they're doing.
  - izacus 5y ago
    As far as I know they're mandatory everywhere, but pretty much noone checks this. If you don't sign up yourself, it's not happening.
- jgalt212 5y ago
  or using Tesla cars in autopilot mode as an equivalent to a self-driving car.
- random5634 5y ago
  Plenty of resorts and other destinations offer resort and discovery diving. You do need be 10 years old, but no prior experience needed, after some basics some places let you do 1-2 open water dives in the same day! All equip is provided. You really DO NOT configure any of your stuff on these dives (you do get comfortable breathing underwater). It's a scuba dive "experience". Unless you are a diver please don't comment with this type of snark - seriously. " Discover Scuba Diving is a quick and easy introduction to what it takes to explore the underwater world. To sign up for a PADI Discover Scuba Diving experience, you must be at least 10 years old. No prior experience with scuba diving is necessary, but you need to be in reasonable physical health. Are you ready to try it out? "
  - ddls 5y ago
    What instructors and dive-masters actually do (or should / are trained to do) for those dives is hold onto the first stage regulator at the top of the tank for the entire duration of the dive and never pass 12 meters. The diver never even needs to worry about buoyancy. We use to call them Lipton (tea) dives, because it was just dipping tourists into the water ;) They are absolutely 100% safe when done according to the requirements.
    - random5634 5y ago
      12 meters would have been "deep" where I was :) I called them "disco" dives. Dive down a bit, show them some lights and some fish turn around a few times and back up. A play on the discovery label. But yeah, the grumpy "master" divers will be yelling at you from shore about the whole thing! Def want 100% contact from start to finish, and if you keep dive to 8-10 meters or less (hard bottom) helps. Just throw some statues / structures down there to look at. Things to watch for. Folks who can't equalize - just come up or do a super shallow route if you can. And def need to make sure folks can breathe comfortably underwater (shallow water / cow pen). Also doesn't need to be long, it's about the experience. Some idiots take advantage of the depth to extend time which is silly. Another labor was resort dive, but wasn't sure what differences / similarities were between all these experiences.
  - Starwatcher2001 5y ago
- ddls 5y ago
  You should, according to PADI norms, be offered a refresher dive. It costs $10 more and you spend 15 minutes with a dive master reviewing basic skills before a normal dive. The dive master also then knows to keep you close during the dive.
  - mohaine 5y ago
    This is exactly what the resorts I've been to do. Dives are free (All inclusive, Couples Jamaica) but if don't have a dive book with a signed off dive in the last year it is 50$ for a refresher/skills test. I've normally felt really safe on these but once there was way to many people for them all to be babysat and the group actually got split up due to 'issues' that the following guide had to help with.
- renewiltord 5y ago
  Doesn't sound like the evidence backs this assertion, irrespective of your experience.
  - bonzini 5y ago
    What evidence? Evidence that lots of diving places take safety shortcuts? I myself got my first certifications with two amazing divers, they taught me very well and I had a lot of fun. However they also allowed people to take dives that they weren't certified for, because it was a small diving center they could only do two dives a day and they had to satisfy a wide range of divers. They did that with people that they had taught and knew well, and never had issues (certainly not a 60m compressed air dive as in the article!) but it did indeed make diving somewhat less safe.
    - renewiltord 5y ago
      Well, presumably if OP statement were true, recreational diving would involve large numbers of casualties. Casualties in recreational diving are somewhat rare, however, at 2 per million dives. Tourist dives are even safer since they do not perform advanced dives. Overall, the evidence does not support the view "If you really have only a vague recollection of basic safety checks you shouldn't be diving - seriously." Most tourists diving have only that and they're not dying in droves.
      - bonzini 5y ago
        Of course, because things very rarely go south, especially to the point of someone dying. But still, spending half an hour reviewing some basic course material is not a huge thing to ask.
        renewiltord 5y ago
        Yes, it is certainly acceptable to ask for that. Not arguing that. Merely pointing out that there is no evidence for the assertion as stated.
- bonzini 5y ago
  Absolutely, I am a somewhat experienced diver looking at certifications, but it's all too easy to forget things even if you have more than a vague recollection. Whenever I haven't dived for a couple years, I always ask an instructor to check on me while I prepare for the first dive, because I just don't trust myself. A dive or two later I am okay with helping newly certified divers both on shore and on the boat, but on the first dive after some time you should never overestimate your memory. Diving is safe if you know how to keep it safe.
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    > it's all too easy to forget things even if you have more than a vague recollection. Whenever I haven't dived for a couple years, I always ask an instructor to check on me while I prepare for the first dive, because I just don't trust myself. Do you have a checklist?
    - bonzini 5y ago
      If you mean something to go through physically (e.g. on paper) no, at least not for non-technical dives. There is a standard list of things to do, which I agree with the parent comment you should remember more than vaguely before diving.
    - nradov 5y ago
      Here is the recommended pre-dive checklist. https://gue.com/blog/the-gue-pre-dive-sequence/ https://gue.com/blog/the-gue-pre-dive-sequence/
ghostpepper 5y ago
It's a vicious cycle though: tourists don't know how to dive safely so instead of making sure they know, we'll just set up their gear and throw them in the water. Tourists learn that this is normal, and become even less likely to know how their gear should be configured, which makes the next operator more confident in their decision to not let the tourist set up their own gear. The crew on a dive boat in a tropical destination could very well be a 20 year old newly certified divemaster who's been up all night partying - there's no way I'm letting that person be responsible for making sure my air supply is connected and turned on before throwing me in the water, or any of the other standard pre-dive (BWRAF) safety checks that all certified divers are taught to do.
- random5634 5y ago
  The problem dive locations have is a lot of people a) overstate experience or what they remember, b) are unfamiliar or have not tested equip they will be diving with and c) equip is not familiar to operator if they bring their stuff. People don't dive enough. So they buy all sorts of new stuff for their big new drift dive vacation. In some cases they've literally not been underwater with it for even 20 minutes. Also makes it harder to do an at a glance x-check for folks if you don't know their gear. And some gear harder to deal with (ie, adding weights underwater) if someone turns out underweighted. My own feeling - unless someone is current with their equip or has current diving - start with a hard bottom dive at 40'.
  - pge 5y ago
    You touch on what I think is an important consideration. A lot of people want to get into diving but just don't have the time to do it consistently enough to be fully on top of it. They have a few days vacation and go do a nice destination and expect to jump right back in at the same level they have done before, or even worse they buy some new gear as if gear makes up for practice. Like with a lot of things, there is no substitute for time in the water as a diver. Good decision making and technique come from lots of consistent practice, that most people don't have the time to do.
- watwut 5y ago
mxcrossb 5y ago
How many of those tourists will die as a result of this? The data seems to suggest it’s vanishingly small.
- dhimes 5y ago
  Exactly. Yes, cave diving is extremely dangerous. Deep diving also is dangerous. But there are dives, amazingly beautiful dives, that, while not devoid of risk, are very safe. Simple, shallow dives in the Caribbean, for example, where the benefit of the tank over snorkeling is just that you can stay down longer. Diving is wonderful. Get certified (but you don't have to be for some dives). I also sail. Also wonderful. Can be dangerous if you push the edge, but more likely embarrassing if you stay within your limits.
- spaetzleesser 5y ago
  I don’t know the stats but from what I read a lot of accidents are not tourists but more serious divers who go below 20-30 meters. I haven’t heard about people getting injured while on regular tourist dives. Same with motorcycle riding or paragliding: it gets dangerous once you are beyond the beginner stage. I really don’t know what could go wrong on the typical tourist dive if the dive master keeps an eye on people and you don’t panic.
  - acjohnson55 5y ago
    That tracks with what I've heard, anecdotally. Accidents happen when people plan their own dives, go alone, push too far out of their comfort zone, or dive in conditions they aren't prepared for. These things are risk and consequence multipliers.

samdixon 5y ago

I have a similar theory about motorcycles. It's not batteries included, and some people ride like absolute madmen increasing the fatality rate.

Syonyk 5y ago
It's not actually the people riding like lunatics that manage to kill themselves on motorcycles at high rates. It's the old guys, riding back from "biker nights" at the bar, in full branded gear to include the do-rag and t-shirt. Lots of single rider, single bike accident with substantial alcohol in the blood. I've ridden for many years, and I also fly small planes, so I'm quite aware of my higher-than-average risk profile, and have gone through a lot of studies and reading to determine how I can, as much as possible, mitigate the risks while still enjoying the activities. For motorcycles, riding regularly, in full gear, while sober, gains you an awful lot. Riding infrequently is hard because you don't maintain the muscle memory, full gear turns most crashes into a "Invent new cusswords to remove the paint from your helmet, get up, and walk away" event (not all, obviously, but if you crash without gear, it's going to either suck a lot or end your life, and if you crash in gear it's a lot less likely to suck or kill you), and "bike nights at the bar" are just dumb. Knowing the limits of your bike is also helpful. I did a few track days, decided I didn't want to go down this route, but very much appreciated the chance to learn (in a safe environment) how much further than my normal limits I could ride on the bike. I couldn't ride anywhere near the limits of my bike, and knew it, but I expanded the envelope of "I know I can make this bike do that," and it was occasionally useful. The guys riding wheelies down the highway, against what most people believe, actually don't kill themselves terribly often. They know the limits of their bike, they know what they can make it do, and if there's something that requires a rapid response, they can make the bike do it on demand. One of those guys has a car pull out in front of them, they're either able to stop competently, or aim for the new gap, lean the bike over, cut through the gap, and flip off the car. The guy who rides a big cruiser 300 miles a year to the bar is more likely to mentally lock up, lock the brakes (before antilocks were standard), and slam into the side of said vehicle. Often while sliding on the ground first, having locked the rear tire. You also, if you're riding regularly, learn in a hurry how to identify the cars to watch out for. Maybe the slammed Honda with a fart can, park bench, and body damage is being driven by someone's mom, who is the most respectful person on the road. Don't care, I'm going to assume it's likely to do something very abrupt and stupid. And, often enough, they do. But if you wear gear, ride a lot, and understand the limits of your bike, you can manage a lot of riding miles, very safely. As much as people make fun of the old couples on Goldwings in the glow-stick yellow riding gear, a lot of those people ride 30k+ miles/yr, for many, many years, entirely safely. This is getting long, but general aviation accident records contain a lot of the same sort of thing - "Here's a short list of quick ways to die in an airplane. Don't do these and your life expectancy will increase dramatically." And nothing here means that you can control all the risk. Sometimes, shit happens and there's nothing you can do about it, despite all your preparations (Gann's Fate is the Hunter is a great read on the subject). But you can radically balance the scales in your direction with the right planning.

ethbr0 5y ago

First class of dive course at CWRU: Older Navy diver instructor walks in "So I know each of you is coming into this class with different levels of experience. What we're going to do first is a short test on your proficiency for 20 minutes. It will be graded on completeness, not correctness. You are not expected to know all the answers. I'm just interested in gauging what you know. Be aware, there are a lot of questions for the time, so I suggest you work quickly to get through all of them. Make sure you read and follow all instructions. Do not turn your paper over and start until I've handed all of them out and said go. hands out tests Go." 12/14 people in the class start furiously scribbling The first sentence on the test? "If you read this sentence, please continue to hold your pencil, but do not write on this test. Wait until time has expired." It always stuck with me as one of the best lessons about diving. Both in what you should do, and what our natural inclinations to actually do are.

s_dev 5y ago
Other versions of this test include the last question being "Don't answer any questions". The habit the teacher was trying to impart was "read the whole paper" first before answering any questions -- particularly if there are multiple choice questions.
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- throw1234651234 5y ago
  This is an irrational party(professor) trick that wastes everyone's time. An argument could be made for "read the (short) instructions at the start". An argument cannot be made for this. There is often very little value to skimming the entire question set before the exam.
  - henshao 5y ago
    I don't know about you, but for my tests on a curve where I might not be able to answer all the questions, doing the quick skim to answer the low hanging fruit before getting to the harder problems is a good way to make sure you don't run out of time and lose out.

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lmilcin 5y ago

Which is to say diving is a sport that can be safe, but only assuming you are actively and honestly engaged in making it safe. I am not diving but I am sailing and for the most part sailing is a safe sport assuming you are prepped including mental preparation. If you are not, things can get downhill pretty fast. I consider diving one of the sports where you place yourself in a situation where you are dead by default unless you have paved the way for you to escape. Same is flying, skydiving but so is going into a corner in a car or motorcycle at the max speed you can handle.

throw1234651234 5y ago
Tangential, but driving never quite feels safe if you are pushing the car. At least not without inspecting the entire suspension every month or two. And that's ignoring anything internal, like your clutch fork giving out, or bending a rod, or your inner tie-rods disconnecting, or your brake cable tearing, or...
- lmilcin 5y ago
  If you are pushing the car on a public road it means you have already failed at driving safely. Driving safely != not cause an accident Driving safely == not be in an accident You can be the best driver in the world driving the best car in the world and it doesn't matter, because some idiot will not look in their mirror when changing lanes and suddenly you are in an accident. To drive safely on a public road means to take care for your abilities and your car but most, most importantly, too give wide berth to other road users and to drive in a way that will minimize the accident if it happens. Understand everybody makes mistakes. If you aim to drive safely you need to make it your responsibility to drive in a way that will allow yourself and others make mistakes and still not cause an accident. In other words, give margin for error. Some examples: -- try to minimize your time in somebody's blind spot. -- observe traffic behind you, not just in front of you. I have on multiple occasions avoided a car hitting me from behind, twice at a difference of speed that looked like at least 100km/h. Being aware where the cars are gives you ability to act instinctively without hitting somebody. -- try to maintain slow relative speeds with regards to other road users. For example, never drive fast around cars stuck in traffic. -- always have a backup plan for every maneuver. For example, do not have fast closing speed to the car in front of you with a plan to change the lane just before you hit it. You need to maintain the ability to break in case the car in front of you suddenly slows down or in case you can't change the lane for whatever reason, etc.

margalabargala 5y ago

> I believe that 90% of the industry sees diving akin to a roller coaster ride instead of Skydiving As a licensed skydiver who got out of the sport partially because I didn't like the culture, I assure you that a huge amount of the skydiving industry also views it like a roller coaster ride.

PostThisTooFast 5y ago

I tell people that diving is a bit like flying. You preflight your equipment, use checklists, and monitor your condition at all times. It's equipment-centric, and one of the best things you can do is read accident reports. In flying, people die when they accidentally fly into instrument conditions. In diving, people die when they jump in without turning on their air.