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Do you know what is a real shame? This statistic doesn't really correlate with the highest quality output. Most of them who stay put in Australia never really

Do you know what is a real shame? This statistic doesn't really correlate with the highest quality output. Most of them who stay put in Australia never really get to put their skills to good use. Our digital landscape is quite conservative & somewhat arguably boring, consisting of mainly traditional finance/banking & insurance - and we all know how these companies work internally (digital as a cost centre). Don't get me wrong, there are a few startups floating around who are growing up e.g., Canva, Campaign Monitor, Atlassian (for which I'd argue is a US company), but even the bigger ones only hire a couple of thousand on-shore devs a piece. Most of the good devs with half an inkling go overseas when they finish Uni to earn good coin and work on far more shaping stuff. I think we are risk-averse in Australia due to life being pretty good on average here (so what's the point?), which is fine, but more jarringly; the Government do very little to assist or incentivise entrepreneurs. I wish they did more, we'd see way more talent remain here and plenty of more ideas come to life!

shric 5y ago
To be fair we have it far easier in Sydney than over in Silicon Valley. For example most (but not all) Sydney Googlers choose to stay in Sydney even though they have the chance to relocate to e.g. Mountain View or Sunnyvale for more than double the comp. This is because of the work life balance and culture here in Sydney compared to over there. (I worked at Google Sydney for 5 years)
- ZephyrBlu 5y ago
  What are the differences in W/L balance and culture between SV and Sydney?
  - shric 5y ago
    In Sydney It's generally fine to arrive at 9 and leave at 5 as long as you produce reasonable output. In SV I noticed almost everyone worked way over 40 hours per week, overtime was the expectation and the norm. I would assume this is not across all teams in all cases, just my first hand experience and also second hand anecdotes from colleagues.
    - ZephyrBlu 5y ago
      Interesting. I would have thought things at Google would be relatively chill. People on /r/cscareerquestions who work at FAANG usually say they work less than 40hrs a week.
      - shric 5y ago
        Maybe it's chill compared to other FAANG. I hear horror stories from Googlers in Seattle that are ex Amazon
      - flukus 5y ago
        I would be shocked if that sub wasn't thoroughly astro-turfed. The constant influx of new devs and repetitive questions, the relative lack of experienced devs and the potentially large payoff make it the ideal breeding ground for manipulation.
        ZephyrBlu 5y ago
        There are quite a few regulars, and funnily enough most people on the sub are quick to call out possible astro-turfing. It seems unlikely that it's thoroughly astro-turfed.
  - threeseed 5y ago
    Apart from Sydney having almost perfect weather and being one of the most stunning cities in the world there are the political aspects. Free healthcare, basically no gun crime, far less polarisation, more family friendly, far less homeless, a more successful multiculturalism environment, strong societal bonds i.e. we were able to get most of the country to agree to large scale lockdowns and mask wearing. Mateship and community are embedded in the DNA of the country whereas in the US it's freedom and individuality. And those different styles permeate through everything. But then S/V has the incredible IT and startup community which is unparalleled anywhere in the world.
    - astrange 5y ago
      US FAANG health insurance is better and cheaper than (Australian) Medicare, which doesn't cover dentists/therapists/psychiatrists/etc. Universal systems are of course better once you're too sick to keep your job. Also, Sydney's cost of living and housing crisis is apparently even worse than SV, though I don't understand how that's possible. We're very dedicated to making housing expensive here.
      - shric 5y ago
        AU FAANG pay for health insurance too.
        astrange 5y ago
        I was actually just looking at this and our benefits in AU seem to be A$3000 a year allowance towards a private plan. That doesn't seem like a lot, but maybe it's enough.
        shric 5y ago
        That gets a good private plan here. Also that's after a large corporate discount
        InvertedRhodium 5y ago
        I'd be inclined to bank the 3k/year and insure yourself - PHI in Australia is a borderline scam and half the time you'll end up in the public system anyway.
- bonjourmr 5y ago
  Yeah, I touched on the lifestyle here being good, I completely relate - I just think it creates a conundrum. Given this reality, we'll continue to be safe/slow followers to the rest of the world. Which is sad given this statistic! It is a huge wasted opportunity where we could be leaders in ideation, creations, thoughts, inventions etc. I don't want life to change, but in the bigger picture, I don't want us to fall behind in the pack.
  - nightowl_games 5y ago
    > Which is sad given this statistic! It is a huge wasted opportunity where we could be leaders in ideation, creations, thoughts, inventions etc. The statistic is about devs doing well on coding tests, not about any of the creative, innovative things you list. Perhaps they are inversely related.
niceairport 5y ago
I've had the pleasure of working with an Australian consulting firm - Industrie & Co. Great people and great experience overall.
SilverRed 5y ago
>Most of the good devs with half an inkling go overseas No they don't. Because not everything is about money. Life in Australia is just better than some war zone in California.
- bonjourmr 5y ago
  I agree personally that it's not about money, but It's an individual scale I guess
- dkjaudyeqooe 5y ago
  That's extremely subjective. It's entirely dependent on what your preferences are. Even an objective comparison cannot account for individual tastes.
- s5300 5y ago
  Where exactly is this war zone in California...? Growing up in the sticks I'd heard so much about it and had hilariously low expectations when I went out for an internship, but then I found out that it's a fucking amazing place. I swear there's got to be a decades long campaign to make outsiders think the place is terrible in an attempt to keep density down. Honestly, I'd be perfectly happy if so. Don't want my paragliding ocean bluffs overpacked with people. :P
  - femiagbabiaka 5y ago
    sssshhhhhh
  - anonymoushn 5y ago
    I lived near 5th and Market and walked to a tech company I love very much near Giants Stadium. This is a short walk. One place I regularly walked by was the site of a random slaying by a person who had been released from prison after being arrested for randomly assaulting people in the same place years before.
  - flukus 5y ago
    > Where exactly is this war zone in California...? No idea how universal these things are in all of California, but nearly every Australian that visits LA and a few other areas come back with stories about hearing gunshots from the hotel, accidentally ending up in a seedy/crime ridden part of town or something similar. This is very alien to us and more in line with what we'd see on the news from Somalia. Statistics like homicide rates and gun crime show there's at least some truth it. We're also a fairly egalitarian society, so much more likely to judge other nations on how well off the poorest are and not the richest.
tac0_ 5y ago
Melbourne based here and definitely agree with this. It's pretty hard to find a startup that's working on cutting edge stuff. Lack of VC funding here also doesn't help. The only thing Australians want to sink money into is real estate.
- haihaibye 5y ago
  That's not really fair, they are also interested in banking and mining.
  - tac0_ 5y ago
    ahhh yup of course. Also chuck in some BNPL stocks into the mix now as well.
emdowling 5y ago
Couldn’t agree with this post more. I left Australia 6 years ago and work for a FAANG earning 5x-7x in London than I would in Australia as a PM. Most Australian tech companies are mundane and boring. They lack ambition because the base quality of life is just so damn good.
- InvertedRhodium 5y ago
  > They lack ambition because the base quality of life is just so damn good. Do you really see this as a negative?
  - yoz-y 5y ago
    I guess if you plan to retire early and come back then earning a lot of money makes sense. Personally, the comments make me rather want to relocate to Australia.
    - emdowling 5y ago
      This is exactly my plan. Another 6-7 years in London, then back to Australia. I love London and my life here - I’ll be able to move back to Australia when I’m 40, have a high quality of life and be in a strong financial position relative to my peers.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - shric 5y ago
    This, and Google in Sydney vs London for the same role certainly does not pay 5-7x. Sydney L5 SWE is around 300-350K AUD total comp. If an L5 SWE in London gets 1.5M I'll eat my hat :)
    - jay_kyburz 5y ago
      Do you know how much of that comp is actual cash and super?
InvertedRhodium 5y ago
> Most of them who stay put in Australia never really get to put their skills to good use. What's the definition of 'good use' here? I've had plenty of offers to go work in the US but have always chosen to remain closer to my family and maintain an enjoyable work/life balance while still being able to travel internationally for projects as required. I'd consider that an excellent use of my skills, though I admit a certain amount of bias.
- justatdotin 5y ago
  > good use uber, but for dogs
  - InvertedRhodium 5y ago
    Hot Dog Not Hot Dog
girvo 5y ago
> Most of them who stay put in Australia never really get to put their skills to good use. I'm curious what you mean by this, and didn't get a full picture from the sentences afterwards. I might not work in B2C "world changing" stuff, but the work I have done over the past decade runs infrastructure that the actual world is changed by. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean, which is likely. Edit: Well, I guess I said something wrong. Disparaging an entire country's developers as "never really getting to put their skills to good use" is acceptable, but pointing out that that simply isn't the case universally, and being proud of the work I've done isn't.
ehnto 5y ago
At first I wanted to disagree as I have worked on some pretty awesome stuff and for work at least, I would rather work here than the US. That moderate economic landscape you mention is the reason working on software is so reasonable here. No ridiculous hours, sensible but good pay and a lot of mature technology choices since risk is avoided or at least calculated first. As an average entrepreneur you are incentivised to play it safe by bootstrapping into existing industries, and because our market is so small the potential for hockey stick growth isn't there so investment isn't an attractive option either. So I think you raise some good points but they may be aimed at people interested in the fast paced investment fueled software industries, and there are plenty of entrepreneurs and developers who much rather the moderate and grounded pace Australia offers. I also agree that we have a lot of latent opportunities that can't be realised in that same environment, we are at an apex of cost and availability that makes it really difficult to pull off big risky projects so that leaves a lot of opportunity on the table.
mauritzio 5y ago
Maybe boring things don't attract so many bad programmers, that statistics are getting messed up.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

shric 5y ago

To be fair we have it far easier in Sydney than over in Silicon Valley. For example most (but not all) Sydney Googlers choose to stay in Sydney even though they have the chance to relocate to e.g. Mountain View or Sunnyvale for more than double the comp. This is because of the work life balance and culture here in Sydney compared to over there. (I worked at Google Sydney for 5 years)

ZephyrBlu 5y ago
What are the differences in W/L balance and culture between SV and Sydney?
- shric 5y ago
  In Sydney It's generally fine to arrive at 9 and leave at 5 as long as you produce reasonable output. In SV I noticed almost everyone worked way over 40 hours per week, overtime was the expectation and the norm. I would assume this is not across all teams in all cases, just my first hand experience and also second hand anecdotes from colleagues.
  - ZephyrBlu 5y ago
    Interesting. I would have thought things at Google would be relatively chill. People on /r/cscareerquestions who work at FAANG usually say they work less than 40hrs a week.
    - shric 5y ago
      Maybe it's chill compared to other FAANG. I hear horror stories from Googlers in Seattle that are ex Amazon
    - flukus 5y ago
      I would be shocked if that sub wasn't thoroughly astro-turfed. The constant influx of new devs and repetitive questions, the relative lack of experienced devs and the potentially large payoff make it the ideal breeding ground for manipulation.
      - ZephyrBlu 5y ago
        There are quite a few regulars, and funnily enough most people on the sub are quick to call out possible astro-turfing. It seems unlikely that it's thoroughly astro-turfed.
- threeseed 5y ago
  Apart from Sydney having almost perfect weather and being one of the most stunning cities in the world there are the political aspects. Free healthcare, basically no gun crime, far less polarisation, more family friendly, far less homeless, a more successful multiculturalism environment, strong societal bonds i.e. we were able to get most of the country to agree to large scale lockdowns and mask wearing. Mateship and community are embedded in the DNA of the country whereas in the US it's freedom and individuality. And those different styles permeate through everything. But then S/V has the incredible IT and startup community which is unparalleled anywhere in the world.
  - astrange 5y ago
    US FAANG health insurance is better and cheaper than (Australian) Medicare, which doesn't cover dentists/therapists/psychiatrists/etc. Universal systems are of course better once you're too sick to keep your job. Also, Sydney's cost of living and housing crisis is apparently even worse than SV, though I don't understand how that's possible. We're very dedicated to making housing expensive here.
    - shric 5y ago
      AU FAANG pay for health insurance too.
      - astrange 5y ago
        I was actually just looking at this and our benefits in AU seem to be A$3000 a year allowance towards a private plan. That doesn't seem like a lot, but maybe it's enough.
        shric 5y ago
        That gets a good private plan here. Also that's after a large corporate discount
        InvertedRhodium 5y ago
        I'd be inclined to bank the 3k/year and insure yourself - PHI in Australia is a borderline scam and half the time you'll end up in the public system anyway.
bonjourmr 5y ago
Yeah, I touched on the lifestyle here being good, I completely relate - I just think it creates a conundrum. Given this reality, we'll continue to be safe/slow followers to the rest of the world. Which is sad given this statistic! It is a huge wasted opportunity where we could be leaders in ideation, creations, thoughts, inventions etc. I don't want life to change, but in the bigger picture, I don't want us to fall behind in the pack.
- nightowl_games 5y ago
  > Which is sad given this statistic! It is a huge wasted opportunity where we could be leaders in ideation, creations, thoughts, inventions etc. The statistic is about devs doing well on coding tests, not about any of the creative, innovative things you list. Perhaps they are inversely related.

niceairport 5y ago

I've had the pleasure of working with an Australian consulting firm - Industrie & Co. Great people and great experience overall.

SilverRed 5y ago

>Most of the good devs with half an inkling go overseas No they don't. Because not everything is about money. Life in Australia is just better than some war zone in California.

bonjourmr 5y ago
I agree personally that it's not about money, but It's an individual scale I guess
dkjaudyeqooe 5y ago
That's extremely subjective. It's entirely dependent on what your preferences are. Even an objective comparison cannot account for individual tastes.
s5300 5y ago
Where exactly is this war zone in California...? Growing up in the sticks I'd heard so much about it and had hilariously low expectations when I went out for an internship, but then I found out that it's a fucking amazing place. I swear there's got to be a decades long campaign to make outsiders think the place is terrible in an attempt to keep density down. Honestly, I'd be perfectly happy if so. Don't want my paragliding ocean bluffs overpacked with people. :P
- femiagbabiaka 5y ago
  sssshhhhhh
- anonymoushn 5y ago
  I lived near 5th and Market and walked to a tech company I love very much near Giants Stadium. This is a short walk. One place I regularly walked by was the site of a random slaying by a person who had been released from prison after being arrested for randomly assaulting people in the same place years before.
- flukus 5y ago
  > Where exactly is this war zone in California...? No idea how universal these things are in all of California, but nearly every Australian that visits LA and a few other areas come back with stories about hearing gunshots from the hotel, accidentally ending up in a seedy/crime ridden part of town or something similar. This is very alien to us and more in line with what we'd see on the news from Somalia. Statistics like homicide rates and gun crime show there's at least some truth it. We're also a fairly egalitarian society, so much more likely to judge other nations on how well off the poorest are and not the richest.

tac0_ 5y ago

Melbourne based here and definitely agree with this. It's pretty hard to find a startup that's working on cutting edge stuff. Lack of VC funding here also doesn't help. The only thing Australians want to sink money into is real estate.

haihaibye 5y ago
That's not really fair, they are also interested in banking and mining.
- tac0_ 5y ago
  ahhh yup of course. Also chuck in some BNPL stocks into the mix now as well.

emdowling 5y ago

Couldn’t agree with this post more. I left Australia 6 years ago and work for a FAANG earning 5x-7x in London than I would in Australia as a PM. Most Australian tech companies are mundane and boring. They lack ambition because the base quality of life is just so damn good.

InvertedRhodium 5y ago
> They lack ambition because the base quality of life is just so damn good. Do you really see this as a negative?
- yoz-y 5y ago
  I guess if you plan to retire early and come back then earning a lot of money makes sense. Personally, the comments make me rather want to relocate to Australia.
  - emdowling 5y ago
    This is exactly my plan. Another 6-7 years in London, then back to Australia. I love London and my life here - I’ll be able to move back to Australia when I’m 40, have a high quality of life and be in a strong financial position relative to my peers.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- shric 5y ago
  This, and Google in Sydney vs London for the same role certainly does not pay 5-7x. Sydney L5 SWE is around 300-350K AUD total comp. If an L5 SWE in London gets 1.5M I'll eat my hat :)
  - jay_kyburz 5y ago
    Do you know how much of that comp is actual cash and super?

InvertedRhodium 5y ago

> Most of them who stay put in Australia never really get to put their skills to good use. What's the definition of 'good use' here? I've had plenty of offers to go work in the US but have always chosen to remain closer to my family and maintain an enjoyable work/life balance while still being able to travel internationally for projects as required. I'd consider that an excellent use of my skills, though I admit a certain amount of bias.

justatdotin 5y ago
> good use uber, but for dogs
- InvertedRhodium 5y ago
  Hot Dog Not Hot Dog

girvo 5y ago

> Most of them who stay put in Australia never really get to put their skills to good use. I'm curious what you mean by this, and didn't get a full picture from the sentences afterwards. I might not work in B2C "world changing" stuff, but the work I have done over the past decade runs infrastructure that the actual world is changed by. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean, which is likely. Edit: Well, I guess I said something wrong. Disparaging an entire country's developers as "never really getting to put their skills to good use" is acceptable, but pointing out that that simply isn't the case universally, and being proud of the work I've done isn't.

ehnto 5y ago

At first I wanted to disagree as I have worked on some pretty awesome stuff and for work at least, I would rather work here than the US. That moderate economic landscape you mention is the reason working on software is so reasonable here. No ridiculous hours, sensible but good pay and a lot of mature technology choices since risk is avoided or at least calculated first. As an average entrepreneur you are incentivised to play it safe by bootstrapping into existing industries, and because our market is so small the potential for hockey stick growth isn't there so investment isn't an attractive option either. So I think you raise some good points but they may be aimed at people interested in the fast paced investment fueled software industries, and there are plenty of entrepreneurs and developers who much rather the moderate and grounded pace Australia offers. I also agree that we have a lot of latent opportunities that can't be realised in that same environment, we are at an apex of cost and availability that makes it really difficult to pull off big risky projects so that leaves a lot of opportunity on the table.

mauritzio 5y ago

Maybe boring things don't attract so many bad programmers, that statistics are getting messed up.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]