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Deep Work and the 30-Hour Method for Learning a New Skill (2018)

452 points by jayliew 6y ago

troughway 6y ago
Sometimes I wish HN would have an almanac of topic themes that keep coming up. Flow/Deep Work seem to be a constantly recurrent theme, as is “imposter syndrome” and other pseudoscientific garbage that people discuss with high authority, quoting this and that author. For the next poster that wants to toss their hat into the ring, please do a piece on the Quiet Eye. I’d love to hear your thoughts on it.
- andreilys 6y ago
  I believe the scientific term for this is blogspam
  - Fiveplus 6y ago
    Rightly so, maybe the only 'daily' article we're missing today is one focused on DDG (aka google bashing).
- jyriand 6y ago
  So why do you think these subjects keep popping up on HN? Maybe because there is a unsatisfied need and these articles are addressing the demand. I'm sincerely curious, because I actually like to read these kinds of articles that you are dismissing as pseudo-scientific garbage.
audiometry 6y ago
These articles are derivatives of derivatives. They become very tedious and repetitive.
- cellularmitosis 6y ago
  A substance-less complaint can become both helpful and a more honest critique simply by including a link to something less derivative.
  - audiometry 6y ago
    https://mrbartonmaths.com/resourcesnew/8.%20Research/Explicit%20Instruction/Deliberate%20Practice.PDF https://mrbartonmaths.com/resourcesnew/8.%20Research/Explici... There you go... the source from which Malcolm Gladwell and thousands of his imitators have pulled. Here’s another for those writing the “get things done” derivative. https://interruptions.net/literature/Wicklund-BASP81.pdf https://interruptions.net/literature/Wicklund-BASP81.pdf Ad nauseum
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
magneticnorth 6y ago
Interesting that this is currently #1 on HN, but (as of right now) 100% of the comments are dismissive & derogatory. How does this happen? Is it just easier to leave a negative comment than to say something meaningful if you enjoyed the article?
- ericsoderstrom 6y ago
  That's often the case with HN posts. I think people find an article valuable they simply upvote, but if people don't find an article valuable they leave a comment explaining why.
  - Topgamer7 6y ago
    I find it more likely its either up-vote stuffing, or direct intervention from a HN moderator.
    - albntomat0 6y ago
      What's your reasoning?
    - fouc 6y ago
      There's only a handful of HN moderators and it's unlikely they have the time to worry about that.
- naveen99 6y ago
  Maybe vote stuffing on the submission ?
- dkersten 6y ago
  I haven’t read the article yet, so I will not comment on it directly. I was recently very demotivated in my work and started reading the book “Deep Work” and the concept really helped me get back on track. I think the concept of deep work is not only very beneficial for knowledge workers, but also essential to our long term well being. Because of the book, I was able to make changes in my work, life and personal priorities and I’m far, far happier and less stressed. Ignoring the importance of deep work (to use the articles title), is a recipe for burnout and disatisfaction. If I had been dismissive and passed the book over, when it was recommended to me, I’d still be stuck in a rut, on the brink of burnout and likely heading towards depression.
vladletter 6y ago
I'm tired of those self improvement hack 2 cents worth. Do what you love people, just focus on life and don't use all the time process. Process is made for stupid repetitive task, not learning. This society is so individualist, that we talk only about the self.
- balfirevic 6y ago
  > I'm tired of those self improvement hack 2 cents worth. Do what you love people, just focus on life and don't use all the time process. Sounds like you've found a self improvement hack.
- Buttons840 6y ago
  What's the greatest accomplishment your aware of that didn't involve some "time process"?
- jyriand 6y ago
  Maybe that was possible 50-100 years ago when you were not living in a global village where everyone around the world can come and knock on your door and demand your attention. Nowadays we need to constantly remind ourselves that we need to find time for uninterrupted focus. And these articles about deep work are just that for me, reminders.
reese_john 6y ago
Past: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17163251 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17163251
- dkersten 6y ago
  Great discussion there, thanks for linking!
llaolleh 6y ago
I'm so tired of these articles that rehash the same idea over and over. Feel like life is too short to setup some complicated discipline system to force yourself to chug something down that you hate. You either enjoy doing it or you don't. Focus on deriving joy out of the process and not the end result.
- Buttons840 6y ago
  What's the greatest accomplishment you're aware of that didn't require "chugging down" some hard work that the person hated?
  - llaolleh 6y ago
    Fair point. All great accomplishments require some grunt work. This leads one to wonder whether or not people who work crazy hours have a high tolerance for bs and pain or enjoy some of the hard work and perseverance anyways. I believe the latter. Most of the successful people I know tend to enjoy the process and don't seem to be extremely occupied with results. But based on the post, I felt that if you want to learn a skill you should have some fun or be interested enough in learning. Setting four hours blocks with specific goals don't help. I believe that it's not that people have problems entering deep work that's causing people not to sit down and read through repositories, but they don't care enough, or enjoy the process of learning that's preventing them from making significant progress.
ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
It's a nice site, and she does seem to be quite qualified. I applaud her drive to "give back." That said, I have found that I don't really need this, myself. That's mostly because I'm a bit "on the spectrum," and tend to drop into what I call my "fugue state." When I am in this state, I can churn out a vast amount of really good code, with almost no working documentation, as I can keep a fairly complex system in my head, applying adjustments as I meet friction. In fact, the most common reaction I get from people is "You didn't write that!". It's very draining. I usually come out of the state feeling exhausted and, sometimes, sick (I once puked my guts out, after spending about 10 hours, working on a painting). I used to have an employee that was a lot more "spectrumish" than I am, and he easily knocked my best efforts into a cocked hat. His work was stunning. I suspect that it still is. But that kind of thing is very individual, and can't be taught. I have written a great deal about my personal process, but I feel it is more expository, as opposed to educational (https://medium.com/chrismarshallny https://medium.com/chrismarshallny). I am quite aware that I am nowhere near the "top of the heap," and that there are prodigies out there that, on a bad day, can blow away my best.
- have_faith 6y ago
  Sounds very similar to Hyperfocus[1] from the AD(H)D world which is something I became very interested in for a while. There are certain subjects that can sustain a state of hyperfocus for me and certain subjects that make me question if I'd had enough sleep. On the surface this sounds a bit psuedo-sciency as if asked anyone would say "yeah I also have things that interest me or don't..." but there's certainly something extra going on when you experience it first hand. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperfocus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperfocus
  - ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
    Well, there's reason that there's so many programmers with at least mild autism. One of the symptoms is obsessive focus. Can work wonders in coding. Otherwise, I tend to ignore most of these "connect to your inner power" things. I don't dispute their validity (usually), and have friends that have done things like the Tony Robbins courses and Lifespring, and whatnot. It seems to have helped them. It's just not the way I feel like going. I do have a personal process that depends on a fairly rigorous self-discipline. Not many "shortcuts." Does seem to work.
commandlinefan 6y ago
"The importance of deep work" seems so fundamental that you'd think everybody would be aware of it by now - yet open offices are nearly universal (or at least were before this corona virus panic started). Is it that the people making the decisions genuinely don't understand "deep work", or that they think everybody can do their "deep work" for four years in college and be done with deep work for the rest of their lives?
- jonpurdy 6y ago
  In my experience, the people making those decisions are aware of the benefits of deep work. But optimizing for it has commonly been a lower priority than other things like the ability to drop in and interrupt developers since that directly benefits them immediately.
  - loopz 6y ago
    I just got confirmation that one of the true reasons was "control", ie. being able to have an eye on every worker. Many managers feel out of touch in the modern workplace, so it's not just employees who are frustrated. The next "fix" in the eternal swing of the pendulum is of course: easier access and overview on workers. The problem is, nobody else care about your "deep work", or benefit much, except yourself. The pendulum always swings too far, and turn back..
- trentnix 6y ago
  Open office plans were a reaction to teams that didn't communicate effectively (or at all). The idea was that putting everyone in the same area encouraged communication and cohesion. It also allowed for spaces that were chic and 'creative', because somehow creativity is impossible in offices that have the aesthetic appeal of a solitary confinement cell. Honestly, I believe most of the value derived from open office plans is that it is harder to fake work and fake productivity. Now, everything that people were doing is out in the open and provides some measure of accountability. Maybe I'm being a bit too cynical, but I think that's a big contributor as to why open office environments are common. And partially yes, it's because some people making the decisions don't understand the value of 'deep work' and the environments that encourage it.
compumike 6y ago
Almost by definition, the modern workplace* has zero tolerance for deep work. Has anyone made their workplace compatible with deep work? * by which I mean notifications, Slack, Zoom, email, meetings, open offices, sprints, etc.
vp8989 6y ago
The sad thing is that the way the software industry is structured, it creates environments where juniors are doing the deep work and people with more experience are doing shallow logistical work. We have it totally backwards.
- wittyreference 6y ago
  Do you want people with an inferior knowledge of the complexities of the system making the large, broadly-impacting decisions? Someone's gonna get the less experienced junior somewhere.
- dtauzell 6y ago
  A lot of shallow logistic work requires domain knowledge the juniors don’t have. Maybe pairing would help here as a way to get more of this knowledge transferred more quickly so the shallow work can be spread out?
  - fizixer 6y ago
    A lot of deep work requires domain knowledge the juniors don't have.
- catwind7 6y ago
  this seems a bit like a false dichotomy - I don't think that's how the software industry is structured. Maybe it's how companies with dev teams in _certain_ industries are structured. I've even had managers in the past who did deep work in addition to doing some of the more logistical work of project planning / story breakdown and it's almost a basic expectation that a senior engineer be hands on with the most complex, business-critical systems I agree if companies don't have non-management tracks for experienced engineers. That does result in the environment you're talking about in about the worst way where your most experienced eng's are unhappy / hate managing and inexperienced eng's are stuck with bad managers
- stopratelimit 6y ago
  deep work != skilled work Experienced software engineers are skilled at creating and maintaining systems, not writing code. That skill is way more valuable than sitting in a quiet dark place to sling code.
m1cl 6y ago
I currently reading this article. Sofar, I really enjoy it.
aaisola 6y ago
How do you balance the want/willingness to do deep work with the external pressures of the tech world that result in new fires emerging constantly?
- jyriand 6y ago
  Doing deep work in early mornings should fix your problem. Usually the fires start after the managers/boss/teammates arrive in the office. In the morning you just can ignore everything because no one is expecting you to be available.
- sghiassy 6y ago
  I switched roles in my company after being put in a role that was more firefighter than thinker. Some people like that work. I didn’t
PragmaticPulp 6y ago
It's easy to dismiss "Deep Work" articles for their use of buzzwords and pop-psychology, but this sort of structured language really does help drive the point home for some people. The core concept of Deep Work isn't really controversial. Everyone knows that hard problems require focus, but that doesn't seem to stop people from surrounding themselves with notifications and distractions. It also doesn't stop many companies from burying their employees under a deluge of Slack notifications and must-respond-immediately e-mail expectations. Once you start putting a name on it (It's not focus, it's "Deep Work (TM)"!) it becomes an easier sell to many (though not all) of the people who need to hear it. Attaching an explanation, a methodology, or a movement to something really does seem to amplify the importance. It's the same effect that makes "Dopamine fasting" more poignant than suggesting that people take a day off of watching TV, checking their phones every 10 minutes, and browsing time-waster websites all throughout the day. They're the same thing in concept, but once you attach a catchy name and/or a semi-scientific explanation to something, many people start taking it more seriously. In my time mentoring junior devs, one of the biggest predictors of future success was a person's ability to sit down, focus, and get work done. Many college grads are coming from an environment where their classes are neatly divided into 1-hour classes spread throughout the day. They're pulled in many directions by their phones, social engagements, activities, homework, and classes. They get in the habit of only focusing for 1-2 hours at most before going on to the next thing. Once they graduate and have to sit in one place and work on one thing for 8 hours a day, many of them struggle. If I try to lecture them on the importance of sustained focus and minimizing distractions, I sound like an out of touch old guy. If I instead say "Hey, we practice Deep Work here. Let me get you a copy of a Deep Work book so you can join us" then they're on board. So you may not like the branding. You may not like seeing the same topic rehashed over and over again. But practically speaking, I don't care how it's accomplished. As long as it gets more people to take sustained focus seriously (both employees and managers alike) then I'm all for it.
- mjayhn 6y ago
  I greatly appreciate this, as someone who has had a very difficult time avoiding distractions (slack, email, meetings, etc) and tries to convey that I need time to not context switch constantly. I know I'm not the only one because other developers I work with have the same complaints but we keep winding up in environments where it's just kosher and "its how we do things" with regard to meetings and interruptions. Do you tell managers this as well? That the developers need deep focus time? I've been fighting for this my entire career, it's nearly always our managers not shielding us from interruptions that have been my problem. I'm not sure if the distractions you're referring to are people just scrolling through twitter all day and not working or actual work distractions.
Buttons840 6y ago
I read this article years ago and have logged about 1,800 hours using this system. Like many, when it comes to personal projects, I want to accomplish something and enjoy myself. The problem is that those are often at odds with each other: accomplishing something worthwhile requires hard work that isn't always enjoyable. I've modified the system slightly to a "20-Hour Method" but the idea is the same. I decide on something I would like to learn or work on and focus on it for 20 hours. Remarkably, I felt the weight of this decision for the first time, I knew my decision would direct a significant amount of time and effort. I never felt this before, because I knew my decisions would only last until the first small obstacle. This system is how I balance the trade-off between doing what I enjoy and pushing through the hard times. It's not a motivational trick to me. It is the objective way I have decided to balance the trade-off between hard work and constant enjoyment. With few exceptions, I know that the only way out is through, so I do the hard work, and when 20-Hours rolls around, I often find I do want to continue, even though I hated some parts along the way.
- trenchgun 6y ago
  Thank you! After readin this I am going to try it out.
- throw1234651234 6y ago
  I find this to be true. It's not that I can't enjoy extremely productive work, but that's only possible when my interest directly line up with the skillset I need, which is very, very rare. Otherwise it's a difficult, tedious grind.
- bigwavedave 6y ago
  There was a really good Ted Talk to this effect called "The First Twenty Hours"! link: https://youtu.be/5MgBikgcWnY https://youtu.be/5MgBikgcWnY
- baxtr 6y ago
  I’d love to read that blog post
known 6y ago
20+ year old is a wage slave. 30+ year old is an employee. 40+ year old is the partner https://archive.vn/K8DpI https://archive.vn/K8DpI
- sokoloff 6y ago
  "Compound growth" is one of the main reasons many of us have settled around the "start working full time early in the 2nd quarter of your life" approach.
- jb775 6y ago
  Your url doesn't work (for me at least)
futureproofd 6y ago
Ah, I thought we were just about due for a revisit on the importance of Deep Work. I'll take this an an opportunity to paste one of the highlights from the book I found to be interesting: "As the journalist Daniel Coyle surveys in his 2009 book, The Talent Code , these scientists increasingly believe the answer includes myelin—a layer of fatty tissue that grows around neurons, acting like an insulator that allows the cells to fire faster and cleaner. To understand the role of myelin in improvement, keep in mind that skills, be they intellectual or physical, eventually reduce down to brain circuits. This new science of performance argues that you get better at a skill as you develop more myelin around the relevant neurons, allowing the corresponding circuit to fire more effortlessly and effectively. To be great at something is to be well myelinated. This understanding is important because it provides a neurological foundation for why deliberate practice works. By focusing intensely on a specific skill, you’re forcing the specific relevant circuit to fire, again and again, in isolation. This repetitive use of a specific circuit triggers cells called oligodendrocytes to begin wrapping layers of myelin around the neurons in the circuits—effectively..." This seems to be supportive to the argument for deep work. Happy myelination, everyone.
- circlefavshape 6y ago
  Science-y explanations like this, especially anything involving brain structure or imaging, totally put me off. Almost always they're simply plucked from the research by someone who has no deep knowledge of the subject in order to provide an argument from authority.
josefrichter 6y ago
TL;DR
ipnon 6y ago
Would it be optimal for my self-development to take a job I can perform entirely with shallow work if I only have 4 hours of deep work available per day and no responsibilities outside of my job? Assume I spend my time after my job is finished to develop myself. It may be selfishly optimal to choose the least challenging jobs.
amoser84 6y ago
I've found the Clockwise chrome extension to be useful in achieving the bimodal method mentioned here - without something automatically blocking time on my calendar to reserve it for Deep Work, my teammates may book over that time in my calendar.
daffy 6y ago
I started on Newport's book a few years ago but stopped because I hated his writing style.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
29athrowaway 6y ago
Deep work is what people that actually work call regular work. The non-deep work I call meta work.
ofou 6y ago
How to achieve a flow state easily: 0. Exercise (+5min HIIT) 1. Turn-off distractors (ex. notifications, dumbphone, etc.) 2. Breathe & drink a glass of water 3. Put a timer with your effort (Forget pomodoro!) 4. Put the tab your working on 5. Press F11 6. Start working 7. GOTO step 2. IF sleepy or tired add step 0.

452 points by jayliew 6y ago

Sometimes I wish HN would have an almanac of topic themes that keep coming up. Flow/Deep Work seem to be a constantly recurrent theme, as is “imposter syndrome” and other pseudoscientific garbage that people discuss with high authority, quoting this and that author. For the next poster that wants to toss their hat into the ring, please do a piece on the Quiet Eye. I’d love to hear your thoughts on it.

andreilys 6y ago
I believe the scientific term for this is blogspam
- Fiveplus 6y ago
  Rightly so, maybe the only 'daily' article we're missing today is one focused on DDG (aka google bashing).
jyriand 6y ago
So why do you think these subjects keep popping up on HN? Maybe because there is a unsatisfied need and these articles are addressing the demand. I'm sincerely curious, because I actually like to read these kinds of articles that you are dismissing as pseudo-scientific garbage.

audiometry 6y ago

These articles are derivatives of derivatives. They become very tedious and repetitive.

cellularmitosis 6y ago
A substance-less complaint can become both helpful and a more honest critique simply by including a link to something less derivative.
- audiometry 6y ago
  https://mrbartonmaths.com/resourcesnew/8.%20Research/Explicit%20Instruction/Deliberate%20Practice.PDF https://mrbartonmaths.com/resourcesnew/8.%20Research/Explici... There you go... the source from which Malcolm Gladwell and thousands of his imitators have pulled. Here’s another for those writing the “get things done” derivative. https://interruptions.net/literature/Wicklund-BASP81.pdf https://interruptions.net/literature/Wicklund-BASP81.pdf Ad nauseum

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

magneticnorth 6y ago

Interesting that this is currently #1 on HN, but (as of right now) 100% of the comments are dismissive & derogatory. How does this happen? Is it just easier to leave a negative comment than to say something meaningful if you enjoyed the article?

ericsoderstrom 6y ago
That's often the case with HN posts. I think people find an article valuable they simply upvote, but if people don't find an article valuable they leave a comment explaining why.
- Topgamer7 6y ago
  I find it more likely its either up-vote stuffing, or direct intervention from a HN moderator.
  - albntomat0 6y ago
    What's your reasoning?
  - fouc 6y ago
    There's only a handful of HN moderators and it's unlikely they have the time to worry about that.
naveen99 6y ago
Maybe vote stuffing on the submission ?
dkersten 6y ago
I haven’t read the article yet, so I will not comment on it directly. I was recently very demotivated in my work and started reading the book “Deep Work” and the concept really helped me get back on track. I think the concept of deep work is not only very beneficial for knowledge workers, but also essential to our long term well being. Because of the book, I was able to make changes in my work, life and personal priorities and I’m far, far happier and less stressed. Ignoring the importance of deep work (to use the articles title), is a recipe for burnout and disatisfaction. If I had been dismissive and passed the book over, when it was recommended to me, I’d still be stuck in a rut, on the brink of burnout and likely heading towards depression.

vladletter 6y ago

I'm tired of those self improvement hack 2 cents worth. Do what you love people, just focus on life and don't use all the time process. Process is made for stupid repetitive task, not learning. This society is so individualist, that we talk only about the self.

balfirevic 6y ago
> I'm tired of those self improvement hack 2 cents worth. Do what you love people, just focus on life and don't use all the time process. Sounds like you've found a self improvement hack.
Buttons840 6y ago
What's the greatest accomplishment your aware of that didn't involve some "time process"?
jyriand 6y ago
Maybe that was possible 50-100 years ago when you were not living in a global village where everyone around the world can come and knock on your door and demand your attention. Nowadays we need to constantly remind ourselves that we need to find time for uninterrupted focus. And these articles about deep work are just that for me, reminders.

reese_john 6y ago

Past: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17163251 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17163251

dkersten 6y ago
Great discussion there, thanks for linking!

llaolleh 6y ago

I'm so tired of these articles that rehash the same idea over and over. Feel like life is too short to setup some complicated discipline system to force yourself to chug something down that you hate. You either enjoy doing it or you don't. Focus on deriving joy out of the process and not the end result.

Buttons840 6y ago
What's the greatest accomplishment you're aware of that didn't require "chugging down" some hard work that the person hated?
- llaolleh 6y ago
  Fair point. All great accomplishments require some grunt work. This leads one to wonder whether or not people who work crazy hours have a high tolerance for bs and pain or enjoy some of the hard work and perseverance anyways. I believe the latter. Most of the successful people I know tend to enjoy the process and don't seem to be extremely occupied with results. But based on the post, I felt that if you want to learn a skill you should have some fun or be interested enough in learning. Setting four hours blocks with specific goals don't help. I believe that it's not that people have problems entering deep work that's causing people not to sit down and read through repositories, but they don't care enough, or enjoy the process of learning that's preventing them from making significant progress.

ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago

It's a nice site, and she does seem to be quite qualified. I applaud her drive to "give back." That said, I have found that I don't really need this, myself. That's mostly because I'm a bit "on the spectrum," and tend to drop into what I call my "fugue state." When I am in this state, I can churn out a vast amount of really good code, with almost no working documentation, as I can keep a fairly complex system in my head, applying adjustments as I meet friction. In fact, the most common reaction I get from people is "You didn't write that!". It's very draining. I usually come out of the state feeling exhausted and, sometimes, sick (I once puked my guts out, after spending about 10 hours, working on a painting). I used to have an employee that was a lot more "spectrumish" than I am, and he easily knocked my best efforts into a cocked hat. His work was stunning. I suspect that it still is. But that kind of thing is very individual, and can't be taught. I have written a great deal about my personal process, but I feel it is more expository, as opposed to educational (https://medium.com/chrismarshallny https://medium.com/chrismarshallny). I am quite aware that I am nowhere near the "top of the heap," and that there are prodigies out there that, on a bad day, can blow away my best.

have_faith 6y ago
Sounds very similar to Hyperfocus[1] from the AD(H)D world which is something I became very interested in for a while. There are certain subjects that can sustain a state of hyperfocus for me and certain subjects that make me question if I'd had enough sleep. On the surface this sounds a bit psuedo-sciency as if asked anyone would say "yeah I also have things that interest me or don't..." but there's certainly something extra going on when you experience it first hand. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperfocus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperfocus
- ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
  Well, there's reason that there's so many programmers with at least mild autism. One of the symptoms is obsessive focus. Can work wonders in coding. Otherwise, I tend to ignore most of these "connect to your inner power" things. I don't dispute their validity (usually), and have friends that have done things like the Tony Robbins courses and Lifespring, and whatnot. It seems to have helped them. It's just not the way I feel like going. I do have a personal process that depends on a fairly rigorous self-discipline. Not many "shortcuts." Does seem to work.

commandlinefan 6y ago

"The importance of deep work" seems so fundamental that you'd think everybody would be aware of it by now - yet open offices are nearly universal (or at least were before this corona virus panic started). Is it that the people making the decisions genuinely don't understand "deep work", or that they think everybody can do their "deep work" for four years in college and be done with deep work for the rest of their lives?

jonpurdy 6y ago
In my experience, the people making those decisions are aware of the benefits of deep work. But optimizing for it has commonly been a lower priority than other things like the ability to drop in and interrupt developers since that directly benefits them immediately.
- loopz 6y ago
  I just got confirmation that one of the true reasons was "control", ie. being able to have an eye on every worker. Many managers feel out of touch in the modern workplace, so it's not just employees who are frustrated. The next "fix" in the eternal swing of the pendulum is of course: easier access and overview on workers. The problem is, nobody else care about your "deep work", or benefit much, except yourself. The pendulum always swings too far, and turn back..
trentnix 6y ago
Open office plans were a reaction to teams that didn't communicate effectively (or at all). The idea was that putting everyone in the same area encouraged communication and cohesion. It also allowed for spaces that were chic and 'creative', because somehow creativity is impossible in offices that have the aesthetic appeal of a solitary confinement cell. Honestly, I believe most of the value derived from open office plans is that it is harder to fake work and fake productivity. Now, everything that people were doing is out in the open and provides some measure of accountability. Maybe I'm being a bit too cynical, but I think that's a big contributor as to why open office environments are common. And partially yes, it's because some people making the decisions don't understand the value of 'deep work' and the environments that encourage it.

compumike 6y ago

Almost by definition, the modern workplace* has zero tolerance for deep work. Has anyone made their workplace compatible with deep work? * by which I mean notifications, Slack, Zoom, email, meetings, open offices, sprints, etc.

vp8989 6y ago

The sad thing is that the way the software industry is structured, it creates environments where juniors are doing the deep work and people with more experience are doing shallow logistical work. We have it totally backwards.

wittyreference 6y ago
Do you want people with an inferior knowledge of the complexities of the system making the large, broadly-impacting decisions? Someone's gonna get the less experienced junior somewhere.
dtauzell 6y ago
A lot of shallow logistic work requires domain knowledge the juniors don’t have. Maybe pairing would help here as a way to get more of this knowledge transferred more quickly so the shallow work can be spread out?
- fizixer 6y ago
  A lot of deep work requires domain knowledge the juniors don't have.
catwind7 6y ago
this seems a bit like a false dichotomy - I don't think that's how the software industry is structured. Maybe it's how companies with dev teams in _certain_ industries are structured. I've even had managers in the past who did deep work in addition to doing some of the more logistical work of project planning / story breakdown and it's almost a basic expectation that a senior engineer be hands on with the most complex, business-critical systems I agree if companies don't have non-management tracks for experienced engineers. That does result in the environment you're talking about in about the worst way where your most experienced eng's are unhappy / hate managing and inexperienced eng's are stuck with bad managers
stopratelimit 6y ago
deep work != skilled work Experienced software engineers are skilled at creating and maintaining systems, not writing code. That skill is way more valuable than sitting in a quiet dark place to sling code.

m1cl 6y ago

I currently reading this article. Sofar, I really enjoy it.

aaisola 6y ago

How do you balance the want/willingness to do deep work with the external pressures of the tech world that result in new fires emerging constantly?

jyriand 6y ago
Doing deep work in early mornings should fix your problem. Usually the fires start after the managers/boss/teammates arrive in the office. In the morning you just can ignore everything because no one is expecting you to be available.
sghiassy 6y ago
I switched roles in my company after being put in a role that was more firefighter than thinker. Some people like that work. I didn’t

PragmaticPulp 6y ago

It's easy to dismiss "Deep Work" articles for their use of buzzwords and pop-psychology, but this sort of structured language really does help drive the point home for some people. The core concept of Deep Work isn't really controversial. Everyone knows that hard problems require focus, but that doesn't seem to stop people from surrounding themselves with notifications and distractions. It also doesn't stop many companies from burying their employees under a deluge of Slack notifications and must-respond-immediately e-mail expectations. Once you start putting a name on it (It's not focus, it's "Deep Work (TM)"!) it becomes an easier sell to many (though not all) of the people who need to hear it. Attaching an explanation, a methodology, or a movement to something really does seem to amplify the importance. It's the same effect that makes "Dopamine fasting" more poignant than suggesting that people take a day off of watching TV, checking their phones every 10 minutes, and browsing time-waster websites all throughout the day. They're the same thing in concept, but once you attach a catchy name and/or a semi-scientific explanation to something, many people start taking it more seriously. In my time mentoring junior devs, one of the biggest predictors of future success was a person's ability to sit down, focus, and get work done. Many college grads are coming from an environment where their classes are neatly divided into 1-hour classes spread throughout the day. They're pulled in many directions by their phones, social engagements, activities, homework, and classes. They get in the habit of only focusing for 1-2 hours at most before going on to the next thing. Once they graduate and have to sit in one place and work on one thing for 8 hours a day, many of them struggle. If I try to lecture them on the importance of sustained focus and minimizing distractions, I sound like an out of touch old guy. If I instead say "Hey, we practice Deep Work here. Let me get you a copy of a Deep Work book so you can join us" then they're on board. So you may not like the branding. You may not like seeing the same topic rehashed over and over again. But practically speaking, I don't care how it's accomplished. As long as it gets more people to take sustained focus seriously (both employees and managers alike) then I'm all for it.

mjayhn 6y ago
I greatly appreciate this, as someone who has had a very difficult time avoiding distractions (slack, email, meetings, etc) and tries to convey that I need time to not context switch constantly. I know I'm not the only one because other developers I work with have the same complaints but we keep winding up in environments where it's just kosher and "its how we do things" with regard to meetings and interruptions. Do you tell managers this as well? That the developers need deep focus time? I've been fighting for this my entire career, it's nearly always our managers not shielding us from interruptions that have been my problem. I'm not sure if the distractions you're referring to are people just scrolling through twitter all day and not working or actual work distractions.

Buttons840 6y ago

I read this article years ago and have logged about 1,800 hours using this system. Like many, when it comes to personal projects, I want to accomplish something and enjoy myself. The problem is that those are often at odds with each other: accomplishing something worthwhile requires hard work that isn't always enjoyable. I've modified the system slightly to a "20-Hour Method" but the idea is the same. I decide on something I would like to learn or work on and focus on it for 20 hours. Remarkably, I felt the weight of this decision for the first time, I knew my decision would direct a significant amount of time and effort. I never felt this before, because I knew my decisions would only last until the first small obstacle. This system is how I balance the trade-off between doing what I enjoy and pushing through the hard times. It's not a motivational trick to me. It is the objective way I have decided to balance the trade-off between hard work and constant enjoyment. With few exceptions, I know that the only way out is through, so I do the hard work, and when 20-Hours rolls around, I often find I do want to continue, even though I hated some parts along the way.

trenchgun 6y ago
Thank you! After readin this I am going to try it out.
throw1234651234 6y ago
I find this to be true. It's not that I can't enjoy extremely productive work, but that's only possible when my interest directly line up with the skillset I need, which is very, very rare. Otherwise it's a difficult, tedious grind.
bigwavedave 6y ago
There was a really good Ted Talk to this effect called "The First Twenty Hours"! link: https://youtu.be/5MgBikgcWnY https://youtu.be/5MgBikgcWnY
baxtr 6y ago
I’d love to read that blog post

known 6y ago

20+ year old is a wage slave. 30+ year old is an employee. 40+ year old is the partner https://archive.vn/K8DpI https://archive.vn/K8DpI

sokoloff 6y ago
"Compound growth" is one of the main reasons many of us have settled around the "start working full time early in the 2nd quarter of your life" approach.
jb775 6y ago
Your url doesn't work (for me at least)

futureproofd 6y ago

Ah, I thought we were just about due for a revisit on the importance of Deep Work. I'll take this an an opportunity to paste one of the highlights from the book I found to be interesting: "As the journalist Daniel Coyle surveys in his 2009 book, The Talent Code , these scientists increasingly believe the answer includes myelin—a layer of fatty tissue that grows around neurons, acting like an insulator that allows the cells to fire faster and cleaner. To understand the role of myelin in improvement, keep in mind that skills, be they intellectual or physical, eventually reduce down to brain circuits. This new science of performance argues that you get better at a skill as you develop more myelin around the relevant neurons, allowing the corresponding circuit to fire more effortlessly and effectively. To be great at something is to be well myelinated. This understanding is important because it provides a neurological foundation for why deliberate practice works. By focusing intensely on a specific skill, you’re forcing the specific relevant circuit to fire, again and again, in isolation. This repetitive use of a specific circuit triggers cells called oligodendrocytes to begin wrapping layers of myelin around the neurons in the circuits—effectively..." This seems to be supportive to the argument for deep work. Happy myelination, everyone.

circlefavshape 6y ago
Science-y explanations like this, especially anything involving brain structure or imaging, totally put me off. Almost always they're simply plucked from the research by someone who has no deep knowledge of the subject in order to provide an argument from authority.

josefrichter 6y ago

TL;DR

ipnon 6y ago

Would it be optimal for my self-development to take a job I can perform entirely with shallow work if I only have 4 hours of deep work available per day and no responsibilities outside of my job? Assume I spend my time after my job is finished to develop myself. It may be selfishly optimal to choose the least challenging jobs.

amoser84 6y ago

I've found the Clockwise chrome extension to be useful in achieving the bimodal method mentioned here - without something automatically blocking time on my calendar to reserve it for Deep Work, my teammates may book over that time in my calendar.

daffy 6y ago

I started on Newport's book a few years ago but stopped because I hated his writing style.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

29athrowaway 6y ago

Deep work is what people that actually work call regular work. The non-deep work I call meta work.

ofou 6y ago

How to achieve a flow state easily: 0. Exercise (+5min HIIT) 1. Turn-off distractors (ex. notifications, dumbphone, etc.) 2. Breathe & drink a glass of water 3. Put a timer with your effort (Forget pomodoro!) 4. Put the tab your working on 5. Press F11 6. Start working 7. GOTO step 2. IF sleepy or tired add step 0.