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I'm using Firefox for years, after Chrome started to ask me for a login (at around version 40). Never looked back. One day I woke up to a chart showing browser

I'm using Firefox for years, after Chrome started to ask me for a login (at around version 40). Never looked back. One day I woke up to a chart showing browser market share of FF at around 4%, which surprised me - as I thought many people would understand the implications and directions. Maybe I'm too optimistic. Update: Loved chrome, used it for years, I also love most Chrome engineering and all the innovation they added to the field - it's just good to have alternatives.

Ygg2 7y ago
> Maybe I'm too optimistic. Don't be optimistic, but don't be pesimistic either. Do what you can - donate time or money, or just recommend everyone to not use the piece of carp that is Chrome. Anything based on Chromium counts as well, their codebase is dictated by Google, one way or the other. My mom had so many issues with ads until I installed Firefox for her, and honestly, the ad blockers make the internet a much better for navigation.
- realusername 7y ago
  > Do what you can - donate time or money, or just recommend everyone to not use the piece of carp that is Chrome. Or if you are building web products, please use Firefox as your dev browser, that's what I'm doing and it automatically insures that whatever I build will work on Firefox.
  - wolco 7y ago
    I've been doing this for years.
- marcinzm 7y ago
  > money As I understand it, donating money to Mozilla does not fund Firefox in any way but rather their other social initiatives (see the Mozilla Foundation page for a list). Firefox is under the Mozilla Corporation which is funded by things like search deals with Google.
- ksec 7y ago
  >Don't be optimistic, but don't be pesimistic either. The Modern US / Silicon Valley mentality is you have to be optimistic at all cost. Being Realistic is counted as pessimism.
- sunnytimes 7y ago
  i'm the IT guy in my shop so when i got here i switched every machine to firefox + ecosia.org for search and only one guy went back to chrome.. i try and spread the fox around as much i can.
bilekas 7y ago
I'm on my waay BACK to Firefox, there was a strange period when I left, Firefox just seemed really heavy on my machine, and it was super intensive for some dev tools. Now I say the same about chrome and find FF much lighter and efficient. Delighted that FF are taking a bit of a stronger stand here in the privacy dept too .
- ailideex 7y ago
  Using Fedora Linux, last I tried a switch to FF (less than 6 months ago) it was way slower than chrome. I actually like FF functionality more and would prefer to use it but my laptop runs significantly hotter when I run FF on it.
  - Numberwang 7y ago
    This is my experience as well. At least once a year I get convinced by a HN comment that FF is now much better. It is always slow, bloated and markedly worse than Chrome. I really wish it was better.I do wonder what world fellow HN:ers are living in sometimes.
  - prox 7y ago
    I remember reading about an issue on some Linux systems, not sure if they fixed it, but do report these issues if you can.
    - ailideex 7y ago
      Not sure how, it is not exactly a bug, just ... a thing.
  - bilekas 7y ago
    Just given its Fedora I would be a bit nervous to instantly assume full blame on Firefox, given the nature of the OS, but definitely give a try again!
    - kissickas 7y ago
XCSme 7y ago
I personally just like Chrome because the awesome syncing between all devices and always having the best Dev Tools ready to open at any second. I know my browser usage is used for marketing purposes, but as long as it doesn't harm me in anyway I can live with that.
- generalk 7y ago
  I'm not sure if there's something outside my usage that Chrome does better, but for my needs Firefox's dev tools are great. Firefox also not only sync's between all of my devices, including my cell phone. Each device has the ability to send a tab to another device, which I don't recall Chrome having. Just some data points in case you're ever interested in trying something different.
  - judge2020 7y ago
    https://support.google.com/chrome/answer/9430554 https://support.google.com/chrome/answer/9430554
  - CompBrogrammer 7y ago
    Seems that this has been in Chrome since sometime last year; first mention on Google is in March, but a lot of the stories regarding it are dated September.
- jeltz 7y ago
  In my opinion Firefox's dev tools are superior for CSS while Chrome has better JS debugging and better profiling.
- vengefulduck 7y ago
  Firefox also has sync and it’s end to end encrypted as well.
- latortuga 7y ago
  Firefox has both of these things without intrusive marketing.
avian 7y ago
> I'm using Firefox for years, after Chrome started to ask me for a login It's funny because Firefox has been pushing their login thing pretty hard (the yellow "oh no" exclamation mark icon if you're not logged in, the account icon that keeps placing itself back onto my toolbar, occasional full-page ad/nag screen, ...).
- satya71 7y ago
  One of those browsers tracks everything you do if you sign-in, the other does it only to increase retention, not to track your activities. Guess which is which?
  - anonymousab 7y ago
    It would be better not to do [questionable thing] than to do it at all. I don't particularly care whether nagware functionality is benign or not.
    - Vinnl 7y ago
      A common complaint with Firefox was that you couldn't sync between devices - even though that was perfectly possible! But apparently, people had a hard time finding the functionality. You might not consider that use case important, but I wouldn't call it questionable.
      - anonymousab 7y ago
        I'm amiable to this reasoning right up until software conveniently forgets that I told it "no, I don't care, stop bugging me about it". And again. It's the kind of "oops haha just a mistake that we did the bad thing again" shenanigans that Mozilla employees complain about Google doing.
        Vinnl 7y ago
        That's fair.
Krasnol 7y ago
Chrome has spread like Malware as a bundled installer with a lot of free software. Also it's on most mobile devices. So it's not that surprising.
move-on-by 7y ago
> One day I woke up to a chart showing browser market share of FF at around 4%, which surprised me - as I thought many people would understand the implications and directions. Its certainly low, but I also think FF usage is under reported due to built-in tracker blocking. For reference, FF uses the level 1 disconnect.me block list, which blocks StatCounter scrips from loading on 3rd party sites [1]. [1] https://github.com/disconnectme/disconnect-tracking-protection/blob/7ed6d313763611a6b63988ec346ba01de73d92ad/services.json#L9668 https://github.com/disconnectme/disconnect-tracking-protecti...
- Belphemur 7y ago
  I'm pretty sure they rely on user agent in the server logs. Sure you can spoof it, but it would be the same for the stat counter.
  - move-on-by 7y ago
    Do you have any sources to back up this claim? I know for a fact that StatCounter uses JavaScript [1] to collect data, much like Google Analytics. I do not see any reason why they would have a separate collection method for browser statistics. Even if they do have alternative collection methods, if they combine that data source with the javascript collection method - it would still cause FF usage to be under reported. [1] https://statcounter.com/support/faq/14-how-do-i-install-statcounter/ https://statcounter.com/support/faq/14-how-do-i-install-stat...
- SXX 7y ago
  > Its certainly low, but I also think FF usage is under reported due to built-in tracker blocking. Of course it's not perfect source, but CloudFlare for instance have client detection purely by SSL handshake fingerprint and it's show 6-7% for Firefox: https://malcolm.cloudflare.com/ https://malcolm.cloudflare.com/ Long ago Wikimedia also had own statistics that was pretty much relevant, but I guess it's discontinued.
  - move-on-by 7y ago
    Wow, that is a great link, thanks for sharing! Doing a filter based on device, FF doesn't even rank on Phone, and has 12.73% on Desktop. Although the data appears to only be for 24 hours - so not super great, but still an interesting data point.
Nitramp 7y ago
> [...] I thought many people would understand the implications and directions. Might be obvious, but consider that more people than you estimated, while understanding implications and directions, decided differently than you did. It's dangerous to attribute behaviour different from your own to lack of understanding.
tssva 7y ago
Last time I used Firefox it asked me to create an account and login. It wasn't required nor is it for Chrome.
- ASalazarMX 7y ago
  Firefox suggests an account for syncing and leaked password monitoring, but it's dismissable. Chrome, brand new install, will just take your login to GMail, for example, and automatically use it for syncing without asking.
  - tssva 7y ago
    This is just false. A new Chrome install will not take your Gmail login and use it automatically for syncing. It will prompt you if you would like to use the account for syncing and you can dismiss that prompt just as you can dismiss Firefox's prompt to create and login into an account to sync.
    - ASalazarMX 7y ago
      I don't know if it is so now. When the feature was introduced, Chrome synced with my account automatically when I logged in to one of its services. I found it so bold I've never used any Google service inside chrome again.
moksly 7y ago
I’m not convinced it’s good to have alternatives, or maybe I’m just too uneducated on the subject to understand why. I’m old enough to have lived through the horror of IE, and since I work in Enterprise where some old web applications still require it, I will continue to live it until we’re capable of rolling out the new Edge with IE compatibility. I’ve actually used FF as my main development browser for most of those years because it’s the only browser where extensions aren’t controlled by our IT department, and I kind of need extensions on the fly. So I’ve seen the good and the bad of it. I personally prefer Chrome. I also like privacy, but I’ve tried the Duck and it just doesn’t work for my language, leading me to add the !g on almost all my searches, and if I’m google that much anyway, so I really benefit from using FF? Doesn’t FF also use one of Google’s engines to check site security? Anyway I’m rambling, so let me get back on track. I’ve been testing the new Edge, and it’s Microsoft’s best browser, and what are the risks? Is it really better to have all the browsers on different engines instead of having multiple big guys work on the same open source engine?
JohnFen 7y ago
> I woke up to a chart showing browser market share of FF at around 4% I've used and loved Firefox from before it was called Firefox. I really, really, really want to like the modern Firefox, but I just can't. I find it limiting and irritating. So, sadly, I don't. I don't use Chrome either, though.
- daveFNbuck 7y ago
  What do you find limiting about Firefox? How does your browser of choice free you from these limitations?
  - JohnFen 7y ago
    My browser of choice is Waterfox -- so, essentially, pre-Quantum Firefox. There are two things that I find limiting. First, the configurability has been seriously reduced. I really dislike Firefox's UI, and it's no longer possible to make the browser look and feel as I prefer. I can get most of the way there -- but to even do that much is a rather serious pain in the butt. Second, the neutering of the extensions hurt badly, and the only way I can retain the functionality that I want is to use something pre-Quantum. Waterfox has neither of these problems (well, the extension problem is starting to impact Waterfox, which is why I'm no longer updating it. I need to find another browser, but I haven't found a different one that works for me yet. Until I do, Waterfox it is.)

Ygg2 7y ago

> Maybe I'm too optimistic. Don't be optimistic, but don't be pesimistic either. Do what you can - donate time or money, or just recommend everyone to not use the piece of carp that is Chrome. Anything based on Chromium counts as well, their codebase is dictated by Google, one way or the other. My mom had so many issues with ads until I installed Firefox for her, and honestly, the ad blockers make the internet a much better for navigation.

realusername 7y ago
> Do what you can - donate time or money, or just recommend everyone to not use the piece of carp that is Chrome. Or if you are building web products, please use Firefox as your dev browser, that's what I'm doing and it automatically insures that whatever I build will work on Firefox.
- wolco 7y ago
  I've been doing this for years.
marcinzm 7y ago
> money As I understand it, donating money to Mozilla does not fund Firefox in any way but rather their other social initiatives (see the Mozilla Foundation page for a list). Firefox is under the Mozilla Corporation which is funded by things like search deals with Google.
ksec 7y ago
>Don't be optimistic, but don't be pesimistic either. The Modern US / Silicon Valley mentality is you have to be optimistic at all cost. Being Realistic is counted as pessimism.
sunnytimes 7y ago
i'm the IT guy in my shop so when i got here i switched every machine to firefox + ecosia.org for search and only one guy went back to chrome.. i try and spread the fox around as much i can.

bilekas 7y ago

I'm on my waay BACK to Firefox, there was a strange period when I left, Firefox just seemed really heavy on my machine, and it was super intensive for some dev tools. Now I say the same about chrome and find FF much lighter and efficient. Delighted that FF are taking a bit of a stronger stand here in the privacy dept too .

ailideex 7y ago
Using Fedora Linux, last I tried a switch to FF (less than 6 months ago) it was way slower than chrome. I actually like FF functionality more and would prefer to use it but my laptop runs significantly hotter when I run FF on it.
- Numberwang 7y ago
  This is my experience as well. At least once a year I get convinced by a HN comment that FF is now much better. It is always slow, bloated and markedly worse than Chrome. I really wish it was better.I do wonder what world fellow HN:ers are living in sometimes.
- prox 7y ago
  I remember reading about an issue on some Linux systems, not sure if they fixed it, but do report these issues if you can.
  - ailideex 7y ago
    Not sure how, it is not exactly a bug, just ... a thing.
- bilekas 7y ago
  Just given its Fedora I would be a bit nervous to instantly assume full blame on Firefox, given the nature of the OS, but definitely give a try again!
  - kissickas 7y ago

XCSme 7y ago

I personally just like Chrome because the awesome syncing between all devices and always having the best Dev Tools ready to open at any second. I know my browser usage is used for marketing purposes, but as long as it doesn't harm me in anyway I can live with that.

generalk 7y ago
I'm not sure if there's something outside my usage that Chrome does better, but for my needs Firefox's dev tools are great. Firefox also not only sync's between all of my devices, including my cell phone. Each device has the ability to send a tab to another device, which I don't recall Chrome having. Just some data points in case you're ever interested in trying something different.
- judge2020 7y ago
  https://support.google.com/chrome/answer/9430554 https://support.google.com/chrome/answer/9430554
- CompBrogrammer 7y ago
  Seems that this has been in Chrome since sometime last year; first mention on Google is in March, but a lot of the stories regarding it are dated September.
jeltz 7y ago
In my opinion Firefox's dev tools are superior for CSS while Chrome has better JS debugging and better profiling.
vengefulduck 7y ago
Firefox also has sync and it’s end to end encrypted as well.
latortuga 7y ago
Firefox has both of these things without intrusive marketing.

avian 7y ago

> I'm using Firefox for years, after Chrome started to ask me for a login It's funny because Firefox has been pushing their login thing pretty hard (the yellow "oh no" exclamation mark icon if you're not logged in, the account icon that keeps placing itself back onto my toolbar, occasional full-page ad/nag screen, ...).

satya71 7y ago
One of those browsers tracks everything you do if you sign-in, the other does it only to increase retention, not to track your activities. Guess which is which?
- anonymousab 7y ago
  It would be better not to do [questionable thing] than to do it at all. I don't particularly care whether nagware functionality is benign or not.
  - Vinnl 7y ago
    A common complaint with Firefox was that you couldn't sync between devices - even though that was perfectly possible! But apparently, people had a hard time finding the functionality. You might not consider that use case important, but I wouldn't call it questionable.
    - anonymousab 7y ago
      I'm amiable to this reasoning right up until software conveniently forgets that I told it "no, I don't care, stop bugging me about it". And again. It's the kind of "oops haha just a mistake that we did the bad thing again" shenanigans that Mozilla employees complain about Google doing.
      - Vinnl 7y ago
        That's fair.

Krasnol 7y ago

Chrome has spread like Malware as a bundled installer with a lot of free software. Also it's on most mobile devices. So it's not that surprising.

move-on-by 7y ago

> One day I woke up to a chart showing browser market share of FF at around 4%, which surprised me - as I thought many people would understand the implications and directions. Its certainly low, but I also think FF usage is under reported due to built-in tracker blocking. For reference, FF uses the level 1 disconnect.me block list, which blocks StatCounter scrips from loading on 3rd party sites [1]. [1] https://github.com/disconnectme/disconnect-tracking-protection/blob/7ed6d313763611a6b63988ec346ba01de73d92ad/services.json#L9668 https://github.com/disconnectme/disconnect-tracking-protecti...

Belphemur 7y ago
I'm pretty sure they rely on user agent in the server logs. Sure you can spoof it, but it would be the same for the stat counter.
- move-on-by 7y ago
  Do you have any sources to back up this claim? I know for a fact that StatCounter uses JavaScript [1] to collect data, much like Google Analytics. I do not see any reason why they would have a separate collection method for browser statistics. Even if they do have alternative collection methods, if they combine that data source with the javascript collection method - it would still cause FF usage to be under reported. [1] https://statcounter.com/support/faq/14-how-do-i-install-statcounter/ https://statcounter.com/support/faq/14-how-do-i-install-stat...
SXX 7y ago
> Its certainly low, but I also think FF usage is under reported due to built-in tracker blocking. Of course it's not perfect source, but CloudFlare for instance have client detection purely by SSL handshake fingerprint and it's show 6-7% for Firefox: https://malcolm.cloudflare.com/ https://malcolm.cloudflare.com/ Long ago Wikimedia also had own statistics that was pretty much relevant, but I guess it's discontinued.
- move-on-by 7y ago
  Wow, that is a great link, thanks for sharing! Doing a filter based on device, FF doesn't even rank on Phone, and has 12.73% on Desktop. Although the data appears to only be for 24 hours - so not super great, but still an interesting data point.

Nitramp 7y ago

> [...] I thought many people would understand the implications and directions. Might be obvious, but consider that more people than you estimated, while understanding implications and directions, decided differently than you did. It's dangerous to attribute behaviour different from your own to lack of understanding.

tssva 7y ago

Last time I used Firefox it asked me to create an account and login. It wasn't required nor is it for Chrome.

ASalazarMX 7y ago
Firefox suggests an account for syncing and leaked password monitoring, but it's dismissable. Chrome, brand new install, will just take your login to GMail, for example, and automatically use it for syncing without asking.
- tssva 7y ago
  This is just false. A new Chrome install will not take your Gmail login and use it automatically for syncing. It will prompt you if you would like to use the account for syncing and you can dismiss that prompt just as you can dismiss Firefox's prompt to create and login into an account to sync.
  - ASalazarMX 7y ago
    I don't know if it is so now. When the feature was introduced, Chrome synced with my account automatically when I logged in to one of its services. I found it so bold I've never used any Google service inside chrome again.

moksly 7y ago

I’m not convinced it’s good to have alternatives, or maybe I’m just too uneducated on the subject to understand why. I’m old enough to have lived through the horror of IE, and since I work in Enterprise where some old web applications still require it, I will continue to live it until we’re capable of rolling out the new Edge with IE compatibility. I’ve actually used FF as my main development browser for most of those years because it’s the only browser where extensions aren’t controlled by our IT department, and I kind of need extensions on the fly. So I’ve seen the good and the bad of it. I personally prefer Chrome. I also like privacy, but I’ve tried the Duck and it just doesn’t work for my language, leading me to add the !g on almost all my searches, and if I’m google that much anyway, so I really benefit from using FF? Doesn’t FF also use one of Google’s engines to check site security? Anyway I’m rambling, so let me get back on track. I’ve been testing the new Edge, and it’s Microsoft’s best browser, and what are the risks? Is it really better to have all the browsers on different engines instead of having multiple big guys work on the same open source engine?

JohnFen 7y ago

> I woke up to a chart showing browser market share of FF at around 4% I've used and loved Firefox from before it was called Firefox. I really, really, really want to like the modern Firefox, but I just can't. I find it limiting and irritating. So, sadly, I don't. I don't use Chrome either, though.

daveFNbuck 7y ago
What do you find limiting about Firefox? How does your browser of choice free you from these limitations?
- JohnFen 7y ago
  My browser of choice is Waterfox -- so, essentially, pre-Quantum Firefox. There are two things that I find limiting. First, the configurability has been seriously reduced. I really dislike Firefox's UI, and it's no longer possible to make the browser look and feel as I prefer. I can get most of the way there -- but to even do that much is a rather serious pain in the butt. Second, the neutering of the extensions hurt badly, and the only way I can retain the functionality that I want is to use something pre-Quantum. Waterfox has neither of these problems (well, the extension problem is starting to impact Waterfox, which is why I'm no longer updating it. I need to find another browser, but I haven't found a different one that works for me yet. Until I do, Waterfox it is.)