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I’m a climber / skier / runner etc based out of Colorado and between my wife and we’ve spent a small fortune with backcountry.com. I didn’t know about any of t

by crikli 7y ago

I’m a climber / skier / runner etc based out of Colorado and between my wife and we’ve spent a small fortune with backcountry.com. I didn’t know about any of this. Suing a maker of backcountry skis? Well, fuck you too, private equity jerkoffs. I’m going to light up my rep on this and let them know my spend and my recommendations are going elsewhere. --- Edit3: GoFundMe for the legal costs of one of their targets: https://www.gofundme.com/f/legal-defense-to-fight-backcountrycom https://www.gofundme.com/f/legal-defense-to-fight-backcountr... Edit2: A follow-up article with more details on just how predatory and unreasonable BC (by proxy through their attorneys) have become: https://coloradosun.com/2019/11/05/backcountry-com-trademark-lawsuits-boycotts-backlash/ https://coloradosun.com/2019/11/05/backcountry-com-trademark... Edit, @skierjerry, et, al, here's what I just sent my rep: Heya <person>, I read an article about Backcountry in the Colorado Sun that really disappointed me. Your employer has adopted ugly business tactics and begun using its size to attack smaller businesses who have the ubiquitous term “backcountry” in their name. Please look at my lifetime spend with Backcountry as well as that of my wife. It is significant. It also stops now, and I’ll be making significant contributions to the legal funds of the boutique makes and businesses that your employer is assaulting. I wish you nothing but the best on a personal level and hope that your employer chooses to take a better path."

skierjerry 7y ago
Dude what? Like its your reps fault...take your business elsewhere but don't be an asshat about it
- EpicEng 7y ago
  A... "rep"... is a company... "rep"resentative. I don't imagine the GP is saying he's going to call the rep nasty names, but it's good to let them know why he's taking his business elsewhere.
- crikli 7y ago
  Of course not man, from my experience the rank and file at BC are fantastic people. They of course have nothing to do with this. But when I and others tell our gearheads "the faucet is getting turned off" it will (hopefully) develop momentum internally against what's happening. Or not. There are lots of other players in this space.
  - mason55 7y ago
    > There are lots of other players in this space Yup, I buy my snowsports gear pretty much exclusively from evo. I love going to the B&M store here in Denver, even though it gets disgustingly crowded sometimes I have never had a bad experience there. Plus their prices are competitive, or at least competitive enough that I don't bother shopping around at this point because I like the service so much.
hans_castorp 7y ago
Did she/he answer? If yes, what was it?
- crikli 7y ago
  Contentless lawyered up canned response.
- skraelingjar 7y ago
  I got this: Thanks for your feedback! Think what you may, but if there is ever a time to use the phrase that you shouldn’t believe everything you read on the internet its now. Its being handled correctly, and not displayed honestly. We will be releasing a statement today or tomorrow regarding the issue. We haven’t said anything due to confidentiality agreements, that other parties violated but anyways. I respect your opinion and decision. Let me know what I can help with gear-wise in the meantime,
  - zucked 7y ago
    Looks like your rep was wrong: https://gearjunkie.com/backcountry-statement-lawsuit-boycott-ceo https://gearjunkie.com/backcountry-statement-lawsuit-boycott... Be sure to hold that against them as you continue to take your business elsewhere. This wasn't a mistake or tone-deaf - they simply got caught.
jdorw 7y ago
I'm doing they same. I've spent a stupid amount on bikes and climbing gear from them so hopefully they listen.
- crikli 7y ago
  Brother I'm livid. I understand that a company has to protect a trademark, and I've been in the protecting position. But there are actions you have to take and actions you do not, and BC seems to be taking it to the extreme. The thing that really pisses me off is that they are attacking people in business because they love the sport. These boutique makers are often just scraping by and don't have the margins to sustain much resistance at all.
  - saalweachter 7y ago
    I understand the desire to protect your trademark, but if you want to make a trademarked brand part of your business, maybe don't build your business around a generic term?
    - a3n 7y ago
      Maybe building your identity on something generic but relevant is a good way to crush the competition. Or even companies that are not at all in competition. See the story on Lemonade and T-Mobil currently on the front page. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21453626 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21453626
ummonk 7y ago
Yup, I'm switching exclusively to Moosejaw until Backcountry is a little more reasonable here. Obviously they have to enforce their trademark to avoid losing it, but some of these lawsuits are egregious imo.
- notmoosejaw 7y ago
  FYI - Moosejaw is now owned by Walmart, so if you're trying to ethically "vote with your dollars" it might not be the best choice. I buy essentially all my gear from the REI co-op, who seem to have both customer-friendly return policies as well as genuine commitments to environmental standards for the gear they stock.
  - adrr 7y ago
    REI is my favorite place for outdoor gear. Return policies aren’t as good as they used to be. You can get around the return policies by buying high end gear. I had a goretex jacket where the membrane taping failed after 8 years and the manufacture replaced the jacket for free.
    - dgzl 7y ago
      REI is one of my favorite stores in the world. It's hard for me to come up with a reason not to like them.
      - notyourday 7y ago
        > REI is one of my favorite stores in the world. It's hard for me to come up with a reason not to like them. That's easy. Pretty much every single non-REI branded item that they sell in the store is insanely marked up compared to what it can be bought in the brand's store.
        enraged_camel 7y ago
        >> Pretty much every single non-REI branded item that they sell in the store is insanely marked up Nah. I'm a regular REI shopper and this has not been my experience at all (I always check competing retailers before buying something at REI).
dgzl 7y ago
I chatted with a rep last night and they were very responsive, said "our managers are listening to customer feedback." Don't forget, Black Diamond laid off much of the Utah engineering staff and their climbing cams will now be made in China... Not sure what other gear is taking that fate. Looks like it's Metolious Master Cams for me now.
- ISL 7y ago
  Did BD re-offshore things? At one point, they were bringing manufacturing back to the US after QC issues. Answering my own question: looks like it. They brought it back in 2015 and are going back overseas in 2019. https://www.outsideonline.com/2400138/black-diamond-layoffs-halts-us-manufacturing https://www.outsideonline.com/2400138/black-diamond-layoffs-... https://companyweek.com/articles/as-black-diamond-bolts-to-china-red-lights-should-be-flashing https://companyweek.com/articles/as-black-diamond-bolts-to-c...
  - jschwartzi 7y ago
    That's crazy. China loves to replace parts with "equivalent materials." My employer has been spending the last 3 months resolving Chinese QC issues with metal fabrication such as ignoring critical tolerances or broken welds. Considering how devastating it would be for a carabiner or ice axe to fail in the field it would be hard for me to trust outsourced manufacturing.
    - Loughla 7y ago
      It's everything. Literally everything. It's what I believe is going to hold up Chinese manufacturing, regardless of how much better it is now compared to the 90's or early 2000's. As another example - Jorgenson Pony clamps were made in Chicago until they closed down (like 15 years ago). They're the gold standard for woodworking clamps. Solid as a rock. The company announced they were re-making clamps. In China. At the world's largest clamp making plant. They're garbage now. Materials are cheaper. The QC is nowhere near as good as they used to be. The price is more, even adjusted for inflation, than what they were when they were Chicago made - because people are buying the trusted brand name and getting burned for it. It's just sad. I can't imagine that I would ever trust something like climbing gear to outsourcing. No thanks.
jngreenlee 7y ago
Worth a mention...Colorado Sun is a great example of what local journalists can do after local legacy organizations are snapped up by national/global organizations. After the Denver Post was acquired by Alden Global Capital, the paper's hedge fund owner,they laid of 1/3 of newsroom staff to maintain a profit margin on the property in the 20 percent range. Several of those laid off (and some volunteered to migrate), they formed the Colorado Sun, which is online-only and does actual deep investigations locally. It's probably still hard and the money isn't easy, but its better than what we had!
- tnorthcutt 7y ago
  I'm new (18 months) to Colorado, and I've really been enjoying the coverage the Sun provides. Very impressed.
- deleted 7y ago
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- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- jahlove 7y ago
  Yup, I love Colorado Sun. They are really deserving of your eyeballs and your support.
- elandrum 7y ago
  I was quite surprised to see a Sun article on HN today. Been a member as soon as I moved to Denver last year and have loved seeing it be such a high quality source of journalism.
- a5seo 7y ago
  The Denver Post situation has been a great example of finance eating the world. The Editor is the Boulder Daily Camera fell on his sword quite spectacularly over it... https://boulderfreepress.blog/2018/04/14/private-equity-owners-endanger-cameras-future/ https://boulderfreepress.blog/2018/04/14/private-equity-owne...
tnorthcutt 7y ago
Thanks for sharing this. I just sent a modified version of your letter to my rep as well.
tus88 7y ago
> I wish you nothing but the best on a personal level and hope that your employer chooses to take a better path." Should be: "I wish you nothing but the best on a personal level and hope that your employer swiftly goes out of business and leads to reform of trademark laws."
mbostleman 7y ago
Same boat here but Eastern Idaho. I’ve been fuming since I saw the article on Saturday. Really happy to see it getting exposure here.
cmrdporcupine 7y ago
thanks for posting the gofundme. Just donated, I hope others do to. I had actually been following those Marquette Backcountry Skis thinking some day I might get some. This makes me want them more.
pmarreck 7y ago
If a company does not make a consistent best-faith effort to defend its trademark(s), the claim on those trademark(s) get severely weakened. Companies are thus legally incentivized to defend their trademark (at least in the U.S.). This is a rational decision that has nothing to do with being an asshole (or not). If a company does not have a consistent track record of defending its trademark(s), then their claim gets severely weakened from a legal standpoint. Period, end of story. And yet, every month there is a story like this in the news of "big company with generic name sues small company with same name" because nobody likes a bully. The problem is, if they DO NOT attack, the trademark claim will become severely diluted and then THEY will become vulnerable to a trademark dispute from someone else down the line, and the other party will point to their lack of historical defense and make an argument that the claim on the trademark is weak.
- class4behavior 7y ago
  You're only incentivized not to unreasonably postpone a legal claim. Here, the company seems to exaggerate what a reasonable claim is in the first place.
PatrolX 7y ago
Trademark holders are "required" to defend their registration, failure to do so will result in losing it.
- TallGuyShort 7y ago
  They're not required to choose a word already ubiquitous in their industry and trademark it. They're taking "defense" to a ridiculous, douchy extreme. Also the accuracy of your claim has already been debunked fairly well elsewhere in the thread.
  - otakucode 7y ago
    >They're not required to choose a word already ubiquitous in their industry and trademark it. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the comment you replied to. >They're taking "defense" to a ridiculous, douchy extreme. Unless they did not send letters prior to filing their cases (of which I am unaware and the article did not mention), then everything mentioned is neither ridiculous nor douchey except as far as trademark law in business always is. If the term actually does not indicate to consumers what company manufactured it due to its common usage, all that needs to happen is one of the challenged companies put up a defense claiming genericization or lack of validity of the original trademark (that one is probably more suitable in this case) and a court will decide if that's so. With trademark, as a company you do not get a choice. If they choose not to fight a small business using the name, that is a 100% legitimate defense for Walmart to use when they release Walmart Backcountry Skis that have nothing whatsoever to do with Backcountry.com. The EFF article provided by another commenter does not 'debunk' anything. We're not talking about a company suing people for talking about the company. We're talking about a company suing other companies for promoting products in the exact same space with the trademarked name. This is what trademark law was kind of created for in the first place. If you can convince a court that if you walked into a Walmart and saw Walmart Backcountry Skis on sale that it would never cross the mind of either you or any other consumers that the Backcountry company might have been involved in their production, that is your defense and the trademark will be nullified and the lawsuit will be won.
    - 7y ago

by crikli 7y ago

skierjerry 7y ago

Dude what? Like its your reps fault...take your business elsewhere but don't be an asshat about it

EpicEng 7y ago
A... "rep"... is a company... "rep"resentative. I don't imagine the GP is saying he's going to call the rep nasty names, but it's good to let them know why he's taking his business elsewhere.
crikli 7y ago
Of course not man, from my experience the rank and file at BC are fantastic people. They of course have nothing to do with this. But when I and others tell our gearheads "the faucet is getting turned off" it will (hopefully) develop momentum internally against what's happening. Or not. There are lots of other players in this space.
- mason55 7y ago
  > There are lots of other players in this space Yup, I buy my snowsports gear pretty much exclusively from evo. I love going to the B&M store here in Denver, even though it gets disgustingly crowded sometimes I have never had a bad experience there. Plus their prices are competitive, or at least competitive enough that I don't bother shopping around at this point because I like the service so much.

hans_castorp 7y ago

Did she/he answer? If yes, what was it?

crikli 7y ago
Contentless lawyered up canned response.
skraelingjar 7y ago
I got this: Thanks for your feedback! Think what you may, but if there is ever a time to use the phrase that you shouldn’t believe everything you read on the internet its now. Its being handled correctly, and not displayed honestly. We will be releasing a statement today or tomorrow regarding the issue. We haven’t said anything due to confidentiality agreements, that other parties violated but anyways. I respect your opinion and decision. Let me know what I can help with gear-wise in the meantime,
- zucked 7y ago
  Looks like your rep was wrong: https://gearjunkie.com/backcountry-statement-lawsuit-boycott-ceo https://gearjunkie.com/backcountry-statement-lawsuit-boycott... Be sure to hold that against them as you continue to take your business elsewhere. This wasn't a mistake or tone-deaf - they simply got caught.

jdorw 7y ago

I'm doing they same. I've spent a stupid amount on bikes and climbing gear from them so hopefully they listen.

crikli 7y ago
Brother I'm livid. I understand that a company has to protect a trademark, and I've been in the protecting position. But there are actions you have to take and actions you do not, and BC seems to be taking it to the extreme. The thing that really pisses me off is that they are attacking people in business because they love the sport. These boutique makers are often just scraping by and don't have the margins to sustain much resistance at all.
- saalweachter 7y ago
  I understand the desire to protect your trademark, but if you want to make a trademarked brand part of your business, maybe don't build your business around a generic term?
  - a3n 7y ago
    Maybe building your identity on something generic but relevant is a good way to crush the competition. Or even companies that are not at all in competition. See the story on Lemonade and T-Mobil currently on the front page. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21453626 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21453626

ummonk 7y ago

Yup, I'm switching exclusively to Moosejaw until Backcountry is a little more reasonable here. Obviously they have to enforce their trademark to avoid losing it, but some of these lawsuits are egregious imo.

notmoosejaw 7y ago
FYI - Moosejaw is now owned by Walmart, so if you're trying to ethically "vote with your dollars" it might not be the best choice. I buy essentially all my gear from the REI co-op, who seem to have both customer-friendly return policies as well as genuine commitments to environmental standards for the gear they stock.
- adrr 7y ago
  REI is my favorite place for outdoor gear. Return policies aren’t as good as they used to be. You can get around the return policies by buying high end gear. I had a goretex jacket where the membrane taping failed after 8 years and the manufacture replaced the jacket for free.
  - dgzl 7y ago
    REI is one of my favorite stores in the world. It's hard for me to come up with a reason not to like them.
    - notyourday 7y ago
      > REI is one of my favorite stores in the world. It's hard for me to come up with a reason not to like them. That's easy. Pretty much every single non-REI branded item that they sell in the store is insanely marked up compared to what it can be bought in the brand's store.
      - enraged_camel 7y ago
        >> Pretty much every single non-REI branded item that they sell in the store is insanely marked up Nah. I'm a regular REI shopper and this has not been my experience at all (I always check competing retailers before buying something at REI).

dgzl 7y ago

I chatted with a rep last night and they were very responsive, said "our managers are listening to customer feedback." Don't forget, Black Diamond laid off much of the Utah engineering staff and their climbing cams will now be made in China... Not sure what other gear is taking that fate. Looks like it's Metolious Master Cams for me now.

ISL 7y ago
Did BD re-offshore things? At one point, they were bringing manufacturing back to the US after QC issues. Answering my own question: looks like it. They brought it back in 2015 and are going back overseas in 2019. https://www.outsideonline.com/2400138/black-diamond-layoffs-halts-us-manufacturing https://www.outsideonline.com/2400138/black-diamond-layoffs-... https://companyweek.com/articles/as-black-diamond-bolts-to-china-red-lights-should-be-flashing https://companyweek.com/articles/as-black-diamond-bolts-to-c...
- jschwartzi 7y ago
  That's crazy. China loves to replace parts with "equivalent materials." My employer has been spending the last 3 months resolving Chinese QC issues with metal fabrication such as ignoring critical tolerances or broken welds. Considering how devastating it would be for a carabiner or ice axe to fail in the field it would be hard for me to trust outsourced manufacturing.
  - Loughla 7y ago
    It's everything. Literally everything. It's what I believe is going to hold up Chinese manufacturing, regardless of how much better it is now compared to the 90's or early 2000's. As another example - Jorgenson Pony clamps were made in Chicago until they closed down (like 15 years ago). They're the gold standard for woodworking clamps. Solid as a rock. The company announced they were re-making clamps. In China. At the world's largest clamp making plant. They're garbage now. Materials are cheaper. The QC is nowhere near as good as they used to be. The price is more, even adjusted for inflation, than what they were when they were Chicago made - because people are buying the trusted brand name and getting burned for it. It's just sad. I can't imagine that I would ever trust something like climbing gear to outsourcing. No thanks.

jngreenlee 7y ago

Worth a mention...Colorado Sun is a great example of what local journalists can do after local legacy organizations are snapped up by national/global organizations. After the Denver Post was acquired by Alden Global Capital, the paper's hedge fund owner,they laid of 1/3 of newsroom staff to maintain a profit margin on the property in the 20 percent range. Several of those laid off (and some volunteered to migrate), they formed the Colorado Sun, which is online-only and does actual deep investigations locally. It's probably still hard and the money isn't easy, but its better than what we had!

tnorthcutt 7y ago
I'm new (18 months) to Colorado, and I've really been enjoying the coverage the Sun provides. Very impressed.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jahlove 7y ago
Yup, I love Colorado Sun. They are really deserving of your eyeballs and your support.
elandrum 7y ago
I was quite surprised to see a Sun article on HN today. Been a member as soon as I moved to Denver last year and have loved seeing it be such a high quality source of journalism.
a5seo 7y ago
The Denver Post situation has been a great example of finance eating the world. The Editor is the Boulder Daily Camera fell on his sword quite spectacularly over it... https://boulderfreepress.blog/2018/04/14/private-equity-owners-endanger-cameras-future/ https://boulderfreepress.blog/2018/04/14/private-equity-owne...

tnorthcutt 7y ago

Thanks for sharing this. I just sent a modified version of your letter to my rep as well.

tus88 7y ago

> I wish you nothing but the best on a personal level and hope that your employer chooses to take a better path." Should be: "I wish you nothing but the best on a personal level and hope that your employer swiftly goes out of business and leads to reform of trademark laws."

mbostleman 7y ago

Same boat here but Eastern Idaho. I’ve been fuming since I saw the article on Saturday. Really happy to see it getting exposure here.

cmrdporcupine 7y ago

thanks for posting the gofundme. Just donated, I hope others do to. I had actually been following those Marquette Backcountry Skis thinking some day I might get some. This makes me want them more.

pmarreck 7y ago

If a company does not make a consistent best-faith effort to defend its trademark(s), the claim on those trademark(s) get severely weakened. Companies are thus legally incentivized to defend their trademark (at least in the U.S.). This is a rational decision that has nothing to do with being an asshole (or not). If a company does not have a consistent track record of defending its trademark(s), then their claim gets severely weakened from a legal standpoint. Period, end of story. And yet, every month there is a story like this in the news of "big company with generic name sues small company with same name" because nobody likes a bully. The problem is, if they DO NOT attack, the trademark claim will become severely diluted and then THEY will become vulnerable to a trademark dispute from someone else down the line, and the other party will point to their lack of historical defense and make an argument that the claim on the trademark is weak.

class4behavior 7y ago
You're only incentivized not to unreasonably postpone a legal claim. Here, the company seems to exaggerate what a reasonable claim is in the first place.

PatrolX 7y ago

Trademark holders are "required" to defend their registration, failure to do so will result in losing it.

TallGuyShort 7y ago
They're not required to choose a word already ubiquitous in their industry and trademark it. They're taking "defense" to a ridiculous, douchy extreme. Also the accuracy of your claim has already been debunked fairly well elsewhere in the thread.
- otakucode 7y ago
  >They're not required to choose a word already ubiquitous in their industry and trademark it. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the comment you replied to. >They're taking "defense" to a ridiculous, douchy extreme. Unless they did not send letters prior to filing their cases (of which I am unaware and the article did not mention), then everything mentioned is neither ridiculous nor douchey except as far as trademark law in business always is. If the term actually does not indicate to consumers what company manufactured it due to its common usage, all that needs to happen is one of the challenged companies put up a defense claiming genericization or lack of validity of the original trademark (that one is probably more suitable in this case) and a court will decide if that's so. With trademark, as a company you do not get a choice. If they choose not to fight a small business using the name, that is a 100% legitimate defense for Walmart to use when they release Walmart Backcountry Skis that have nothing whatsoever to do with Backcountry.com. The EFF article provided by another commenter does not 'debunk' anything. We're not talking about a company suing people for talking about the company. We're talking about a company suing other companies for promoting products in the exact same space with the trademarked name. This is what trademark law was kind of created for in the first place. If you can convince a court that if you walked into a Walmart and saw Walmart Backcountry Skis on sale that it would never cross the mind of either you or any other consumers that the Backcountry company might have been involved in their production, that is your defense and the trademark will be nullified and the lawsuit will be won.
  - 7y ago