10 ms·

Why Was Mini USB Deprecated in Favor of Micro USB?

292 points by liyanage 7y ago

ChuckMcM 7y ago
And for those who disbelieve the 'it isn't reliable' story, I've got some worthless evaluation boards you can have where the mini-USB plug will no longer reliably hold on to a USB cable. Not a data set I realize, but I was glad when people switched to micro which has proven more reliable for me. Of course lightning was better still but alas Apple wasn't going to share that with the world so we have USB C.
- pathartl 7y ago
  Yeah I recently moved to a Galaxy S10 which is my first device I use on a regular basis that has a USB-C port. The size of the connector, reversible nature, data throughput, and power throughput are excellent. The interconnect itself though leaves a bit to be desired. I still think that lightning is more satisfying from a tactile standpoint. I think USB still has the issue of the floating spade in the female connector. When inserting a cable, I will sometimes catch the spade and I often worry about if this degrades the life of the connector.
  - neltnerb 7y ago
    I've found my biggest issue is that over many months it gets a thin film of grime deep inside that I have to pick out with a needle to make it work again properly. Micro and C both, but with C it's way easier to break the contacts while cleaning.
    - chronogram 7y ago
      Try a wooden toothpick instead of a metal needle.
      - virgilp 7y ago
        Wooden toothpicks are often too thick. My swiss army knife has a flat plastic toothpick that seems to have been designed exactly for the job of cleaning USB-C ports: https://i.redd.it/79iesas532521.jpg https://i.redd.it/79iesas532521.jpg
        lpcvoid 7y ago
        Thanks, that is a neat idea! What also works are these plastic cocktail sticks that are used for little appetizers on partys.
        martyvis 7y ago
        Cut a corner at an oblique angle and it makes the perfect implement.
        gumby 7y ago
        If you look at the minutes of the committee meetings you'll see this was an explicit design choice. (Actually I'm kidding, but it would make a funny rumour.) Edit: curse you HN for the otherwise sensible collapsing of blank lines..makes these jokes harder.
    - masklinn 7y ago
      Lightning has the same issue. And while there's more space, the springy pins are also part of the socket rather than the plug so it's a bit iffy.
  - GordonS 7y ago
    > The size of the connector, reversible nature The non-reversible nature of USB A connectors drives me crazy - is it only me that ends up turning them and failing at least 3 times before they slot in?!
    - watersb 7y ago
      http://innoculous.com/2016/01/the-quantum-physics-of-usb-plugs/ http://innoculous.com/2016/01/the-quantum-physics-of-usb-plu...
      - GordonS 7y ago
        Haha, love it, it's not just me then!
- iforgotpassword 7y ago
  I don't have issues believing that, but I still kinda need an ELI5 of why micro is more durable. The accepted answer on SO briefly addresses it but I'm not really any wiser, maybe in part because I'm not a native speaker.
  - Kliment 7y ago
    For the mini, the wobbly springy bits are in the device, for the micro the wobbly springy bits are in the cable. The cable is cheaper and easier to replace. The springy bits bend out of shape over time and fail.
    - ChuckMcM 7y ago
      That is an excellent way to put it, I'm going to steal that if you don't mind.
      - Kliment 7y ago
        I don't mind in the slightest. Use any way you please.
    - iforgotpassword 7y ago
      Now that truly qualifies as a concise ELI5. Well done. :-)
    - megaremote 7y ago
      I still don't get this: https://i2.wp.com/www.cheapharddrivesstorage.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/c-appleus-lightning-smartphone-cable-type-_micro-usb-vs-mini-usb-c-appleus-lightning-connector-smartphone-cable-to-hdmi-cables-u-adapters.jpg https://i2.wp.com/www.cheapharddrivesstorage.com/wp-content/...
      - Dylan16807 7y ago
        Here is a mini usb socket showing the metal latch that pushes into the plug: https://image.dhgate.com/albu_198781941_00/1.0x0.jpg https://image.dhgate.com/albu_198781941_00/1.0x0.jpg Here is the other side of the micro usb plug, showing the two metal latches that push into the socket: https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/OesAAOSwxu5ZF07R/s-l300.jpg https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/OesAAOSwxu5ZF07R/s-l300.jpg And like someone else said, that ain't a micro usb socket in your image.
- mc32 7y ago
  USB-C usability on laptops for peripherals and especially power is bad. The connectors become loose and come out with little resistance. For charging even barrel connectors were better, but prefer the magnetic connectors.
  - aeternus 7y ago
    Magnetic really seems great for connections, I wonder why it isn't used more.
    - mntmoss 7y ago
      With nicer connectors, and non-standard connectors, there's usually additional manufacturing cost involved that makes for expensive plugs and cables. As such the standards get driven by every manufacturer wanting to save a few pennies on I/O, while acknowledging that some applications might prefer quick removal or a secure lock. I have a pair of high-end AKG headphones that uses a "mini-XLR" connection. This is a non-standard variant of the popular 3-pin XLR used throughout pro audio equipment. When the provided cable that converts mini-XLR to 3.5mm TRS started failing, I went onto Amazon and found a generic $11 cable, but within a week of use it became clear that it was poorly made, with a metal cap acting as the only source of strain relief. I've ordered another adapter, one that adapts the plug to 3.5mm without a cable, and it also costs $11. Not as bad cost-wise as some Apple device cables, but fingers crossed.
    - q3k 7y ago
      There being an Apple patent [1] involved doesn't help. [1] - https://patents.google.com/patent/US7311526B2/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US7311526B2/en
      - GuB-42 7y ago
        Apple didn't make the first magnetic connector. It was already common for fondue sets. The patent is about Apple's particular implementation. I suppose it wouldn't be that hard to work around if people really wanted to.
- gumby 7y ago
  > Of course lightning was better still but alas Apple wasn't going to share that with the world so we have USB C. Apple was a major contributor to the Type C design, and learning from the limitations of lighting were reflected in its design. Like you I really like the small profile of lightning, but the design of the Type C connector does have two important advantages thanks to its shell/shroud design: 1 - The "springy" piece that deforms is the cable not the receptacle. That means when the connection becomes flimsy this is more likely to be the replaceable cables (though some of the cables can be pricy, it's likely still cheaper than replacing the device) 2 - the shroud is ground and is longer than the pins, thus you have a ground connection before you get to any signal or power (like the longer ground pin in UK and Schuko connectors. This doesn't matter much for a USB2 cable but is a safety issue when you have 100W on the cable. And back to Apple: much as lightning is good for them, it isn't really an instrument of MFI enforcement; they can enforce that just as well with type C. They already have type C iPads so I expect they'll gradually abandon lightning. The iPod 30-pin connector lasted about 9 years and lightning is 7 years old so this isn't unreasonable. And I believe it would make the EU happy.
  - DannyBee 7y ago
    "Apple was a major contributor to the Type C design" Citation? As far as i know, it was created almost entirely by a team at Google, and the agreement to get Apple on board was to not publicize this fact. Which is really sad, because then John Gruber then went off and credited their work to Apple without bothering to fact check it. IIRC, Apple was not even at the USB meeting where it was first presented. I'm sure post coming on board Apple contributed, but yeah. (Various xooglers and others have confirmed all this publicly now, AFAIK)
    - bigdubs 7y ago
      One interesting data point (though I really don't care where this all leads): 18 of the 79 named engineers worked for Apple. https://www.docdroid.net/uf3z/typec.pdf https://www.docdroid.net/uf3z/typec.pdf My sense is the spec was designed by a consortium and no one company owns it, but I would bet Apple did contribute lessons from lightning to it.
- oceanghost 7y ago
  To add to your post. I was part of an effort to develop several remote controls for a company. The micro USB was always the first thing that died. Like you, I had a graveyard of broken remotes. Dozens.
- kalleboo 7y ago
  Oddly enough I've actually had much worse reliability with Lightning than with MicroUSB. Our home has suffered bad from corroded power pins[0]. What happens is you have one lightning cable with a bad contact, and that causes electric arcing to corrode the power pin in the phone, and now the phone will have bad contact with any new cable you bring in, causing arcing on that cable. Now if you have multiple devices in a household sharing the same charging cables, the "plague" spreads. The only solution is to buy all new chargers, iPhones and iPads all at the same time. [0] https://www.zdnet.com/article/lightning-cables-failing-due-to-corrosion/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/lightning-cables-failing-due-t...
  - sbierwagen 7y ago
    I would be very surprised if you were getting arc damage with five volts at two amps. More plausible would be some electrochemical/galvanic corrosion effect.
  - gowld 7y ago
    Arcing and corrosion isn't contagious. Humidity causes arcing and corrosion; corrosion would prevent arcing for the same reason it would prevent charging -- it increases resistance.
    - kalleboo 7y ago
      Then what IS the explanation for all of our lightning cables quickly developing blackened and pitted power pins? This was the only explanation I could find.
      - jhayward 7y ago
        There were a number of people posting in forums about this back in 2014 or so. Apple even went so far as to contact folks and ask them to send the cables in for analysis. As far as I know, the consensus was that perhaps the port contact spring was failing to maintain a good connection. I don't know what the current status is but it doesn't seem to be an inherent design issue, except for the fact that the port has the springy bits and isn't easily replaced.
- rstuart4133 7y ago
  > Of course lightning was better still but alas Apple wasn't going to share that with the world so we have USB C. And for me USB-C has been the most unreliable connector by far - I've had more of them fail that any prior sort of USB connector. But that comes with a caveat - it's always the cables that fail. Replace the cable and it's all good again. I'm coming to accept the fact that any USB-C cable used daily will have to be replaced within the year, which is really annoying. The USB micro A connector is far more reliable.
ebg13 7y ago
I'm skeptical. Hands up anyone who hasn't had dozens of micro USB cables fail on them because of the connector?
- jpm_sd 7y ago
  That's the new trade-off. The cable plug fails instead of the socket on the device. Cables are cheap.
  - opencl 7y ago
    The cable plug is supposed to fail instead of the socket on the device. Actual testing[1] demonstrates that the microUSB socket on the device does not last the rated 10k cycles and also that the cable lasts longer than the socket on the device. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqtNleXhTRE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqtNleXhTRE TL;DW- Repeated insertion and removal led to the socket on the microUSB SSD failing after 8000 cycles, cable was still fine. USB-C still worked after 8000 cycles.
    - silversconfused 7y ago
      That video tested insertions, which is not the only type of abuse phones take. Falling, being shoved into poor angles, being removed from charging at a suboptimal angle (eg, walking away with it plugged in), for example are more common causes of phone cord failure in microusb.
    - imhoguy 7y ago
      That is statisticaly insignificant show test: sample of 1. Moreover the micro-USB-B 3.0 was tested which is wider, harder to plug as has much more pins to fail vs more common micro USB-B 2.0
  - jandrese 7y ago
    I've suspected this myself, but I think they went too far. Even minor incidents are prone to breaking a micro-USB connector where a mini-USB would tough it out. But there's a bigger chance of damaging the mini-USB port. All in all I think the micro-USB connector could have been made a little sturdier without excessive danger to the port. On the other hand, I've never fatally damaged a Lightning cable OR port, despite some fairly bad accidents (drops that land on the connector for example). The only failures were a couple where the outer coating started to come off right past the strain relief, the connector itself was always solid for me. The jury is still out on USB-C for me. I just don't have enough datapoints, but it does seem more robust on the surface and finally (finally!) the cable can be inserted in either orientation.
AdmiralAsshat 7y ago
Strange. My PS3 has been in regular use since 2011 or so (the console itself being a used launch model from 2008), and I don't recall the mini-USB port on the controller ever failing to charge. I suppose I'd have to check the serial number on the controller, though, to see if it's actually that one that came with the console--I may have switched it out with one that I bought later for multiplayer purposes without realizing it. The controller only gets charged once every three weeks or so, now that I think about it, so it could well still be under that failure threshold.
- merpnderp 7y ago
  My ps3 has to have the controllers cocked at the right angle to charge. Mileage I guess varies.
- alias_neo 7y ago
  I have to agree, again, anecdotally. I have Mini cables and devices that have been in use for well over a decade. I've never in my life had a Mini cable fail on me. I've had countless Micro cables fail on me electro-mechanically. Usually either the latch fails, not a huge deal, but not great, or the contacts "flatten" or don't contact any more. I've lost so many that I've taken to cutting the bad connectors off and soldering new ones on since I have the tools and the skills, and I don't buy cheap cables (in the hope they'll last longer) so the rest of it is usually worth saving.
  - dwaite 7y ago
    The original mini-b port was rated for 1000 insertion MTBF (I swear one friend's cellphones were closer to 500, as they were going through 3 a year.) It was revised to fail at 5000 MTBF, much more acceptable for something that may be plugged in multiple times a day. Micro USB was rated I believe at 10k MTBF, and moved the faily bits to the cable. The USB-IF obsoleted the Mini-A and Mini-AB plugs at that point (which are really only used for USB-OTG, which is rare). They still let the 5k MTBF mini sockets get certified on new devices, however.
    - 7y ago
Izkata 7y ago
I have an alternate theory, based on something the comments over there reminded me of: Back in the mini-usb era, most of my family bought Razr phones. All of them broke in various ways in under a year (one actually snapped in half), because they weren't very careful about handling the phones. Nowadays, new phones last several years and are usually upgraded instead of needing replacement after breaking. For most of my family, those phones were the first small electronics they had that they kept on them. But my dad had a Blackberry before that, and I had a GBA - we never had issues breaking our "fragile" phones. I think mini-usb was deemed fragile compared to micro-usb because a significantly larger proportion of the population didn't know how to handle them, and the manufacturers/etc identified the wrong problem.
- closetohome 7y ago
  > But my dad had a Blackberry before that, and I had a GBA - we never had issues breaking our "fragile" phones. I think this is a really interesting point. I see so many people complain about "fragile" smartphones, and whose phones always seem to have a cracked screen. Really it just comes down to taking care of your things, and treating expensive electronics like expensive electronics.
  - zaat 7y ago
    Most expensive electronics are actually much more durable than smartphones, and you usually not taking them with you wherever you go. I can handle ceramics and crystal glasses just fine, but I don't take them with me when I go hiking.
    - closetohome 7y ago
      I honestly can't think of any complex electronics I own that are more durable than my iPhone. Nothing else is waterproof, for starters. And the phone has survived some pretty gnarly drops and falls.
      - zaat 7y ago
neonscribe 7y ago
USB-C has its issues, but it is clearly better than any previous connector.
- akvadrako 7y ago
  It’s not - I had the new MBP and every day had issues with USB-C devices coming loose and losing connections. A connector that comes disconnected with the smallest movement is not that good.
  - mprev 7y ago
    Agreed. USB c is unreliable in that just a small movement is enough for it to disconnect while appearing to be plugged in.
  - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
    Didja get lint in there? I'm incredibly impressed with the USB-based products I've dealt with.
    - sixothree 7y ago
      I have an HP notebook and the USB C connector does seem to wiggle itself loose throughout the day.
      - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
        Maybe I've just been lucky - my phone had difficulty for a brief period about a year ago, and I'd gotten worried the port was failing but pulling out the lint has the connection like new now.
    - scottlamb 7y ago
      That's been the problem for me. I couldn't use my Pixel 3's USB-C port for charging or data anymore, until yesterday I finally dug out a shocking amount of pocket lint. Compressed air and a vacuum didn't do it. And it's hard to find a tool that will fit in there. My toothpicks were too thick. The end of a zip tie (as suggested on some reddit thread) works well for the long section but not the ends. It's probably not advisable, but in the end I used a safety pin.
csours 7y ago
Slightly OT: why did it take so many iterations to get to USB-C?
- silversconfused 7y ago
  There's probably something like moores law for consumer device attachment pin density...
- jolmg 7y ago
  As I understand it, USB-C is considerably more complex than the first few iterations. The goal of the first few iterations was to become a standard cable and connector, and for that it needed to be simple, to lower the cost of implementation and have a good chance of widespread adoption.
  - jandrese 7y ago
    "Considerably more complex" is probably underselling it. A fully capable port has a withering array of signaling standards to support, as well as supporting very high data transfer rates. It's a seriously challenging port to implement. Not something where you can buy a $2 chip and support a dozen ports like USB2.
    - jdietrich 7y ago
      Even setting aside the electronics, the physical socket is an order of magnitude more expensive. A lot of budget phones still use MicroUSB purely for cost reasons, because that $1 of BoM cost can be better used elsewhere.
      - dave7 7y ago
        Gamer's Nexus Youtube channel recently did a tour of Shenzen and produced an amazing "How it's Made" series on the components making up the majority of a modern gaming PC. One such video covers USB-C cables, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1Tmtd51clI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1Tmtd51clI Titled: Why USB3 Type-C Isn’t on More Cases | How Cables Are Made Factory Tour In brief - the cables are way more complicated, with many very thin cores. To the point they require manual labour from people in a lot of spots where simpler cables can be automated. Therefore slow to produce and expensive! Whole series is well worth a watch. The playlist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD5U3JZNVuk&list=PLsuVSmND84QuVMZuk2HGUtCSYXR7nmC5a https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD5U3JZNVuk&list=PLsuVSmND84...
TheGRS 7y ago
Scroll down past the accepted answer and you see what is likely the real one. A manufacturer came to the standardization board with a new design, asked for it, probably lobbied them for it greatly, and they eventually accepted it. Reasons for why the manufacturer wanted this aren't stated, I'm sure its a mix of engineering ideas, wishes, dreams and some mix of gaining an upper-hand in whatever market was there at the time. Obligatory XKCD: https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/
itsaidpens 7y ago
Reminder that Apple designed the USB-C connector, which is why it's so friggin' user friendly!
- daxterspeed 7y ago
  Got a source on that? I'm genuinely interested to hear about it.
  - itsaidpens 7y ago
    Yep! Here's one - it's light on specifics but the gist is that Apple was heavily influential on the actual connector design, not anything related to spec/bus etc. https://9to5mac.com/2015/03/14/apple-invent-usb-type-c/ https://9to5mac.com/2015/03/14/apple-invent-usb-type-c/
    - daxterspeed 7y ago
      I'd personally say it's a bit gratuitous to say that Apple designed the connector, but their contribution was clearly significant, even if the politics of the matter mean that we'll never truly know if Apple spearheaded the design or made any significant demands. Still, an interesting bit of history!
      - itsaidpens 7y ago
        Agreed. I wish we had more details. A hint of apple's touch is simply the radius of the connector metal - it's very elegant.
        dTal 7y ago
        I mean, the radius is half the thickness of the connector - it couldn't really be anything else.
        hammock 7y ago
dmckeon 7y ago
The real longevity plan for plugs is not X,000 cycles, but “Will it work until I lose it?”
- Macha 7y ago
  Depends on your use case I guess? I've never lost a micro usb cable but at this stage I've had tens of them fail on me.
joezydeco 7y ago
Mini/Micro USB also suffers from a superposition rule* much like the A connector: whenever you need a mini or micro cable, your drawer will be completely full of the opposite type. * https://imgur.com/gallery/kYGTLjc https://imgur.com/gallery/kYGTLjc
- m463 7y ago
  My cheap lightning cables are not commutative. If it doesn't work, flip it over and it might work.
  - gumby 7y ago
    I people have been voting this down, but I have seen this very occasionally in the wild. I don't have a good theory; my guess is either some tolerance combined with gunk on a pin or gunk on a bin that is dislodged by removal and re-insertion. But it doesn't happen enough for a good controlled experiment.
    - freeflight 7y ago
      I have the same problem with Anker lightning cables, which I don't consider that "cheap", on both an iPhone SE and an iPad air. The issue persists even after replacing the iPhone lightning port with a brand new one, across two different Anker cables. I guess I'll be sticking to original Apple cables, still, it's mildly infuriating.
    - m463 7y ago
      I suspect there is circuitry involved in these cables, and it is either not implemented, poorly implemented or prone to failure.
- city41 7y ago
  mini usb is basically extinct in my house. But now I’ve got the same conundrum with micro and usb-c. Oh what I wouldn’t give for one connector to rule them all.
AcerbicZero 7y ago
This is a great answer, but for some reason the author left out the most obvious of reasons. Mini-USB put the mechanical strain of the connection on the socket side, while Micro-USB puts that strain on the cable side. Since its much easier to toss a cable vs remove and solder in a new socket connector the average cycle lifetime became much less critical in general.
- favorited 7y ago
  For a few years I was bringing my Happy Hacking Keyboard to and from work every day, meaning (at least) 2 plug/unplug pairs per weekday. I'm kind of surprised it still works because it's pretty old. I eventually got a second one which I leave at the office, but was kind of surprised that years later they hadn't replaced mini with micro. There are some mods people are building to replace the mini port with type-c, and I expect I'll try something like that when it eventually starts to fail.
- megaremote 7y ago
  I don't see how that can be true: https://i2.wp.com/www.cheapharddrivesstorage.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/c-appleus-lightning-smartphone-cable-type-_micro-usb-vs-mini-usb-c-appleus-lightning-connector-smartphone-cable-to-hdmi-cables-u-adapters.jpg https://i2.wp.com/www.cheapharddrivesstorage.com/wp-content/...
  - rasz 7y ago
    Electro mechanical connection requires springiness action to be reliable - one side of the connector needs to work pushing pins together. In full size and mini USB elastic pins are inside sockets, plugs have rigid contacts http://www.hobbytronics.co.uk/image/cache/data/rapid/mini-usb-plug-rewire-500x500.jpg http://www.hobbytronics.co.uk/image/cache/data/rapid/mini-us... Micro swaps that around, moving prone to failure (bend/pushed pin etc) elements into the cable.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - duskwuff 7y ago
ggm 7y ago
Apple isn't always that kind of company, but would lightning have been a mechanically simpler cable than USB-C? (I mean, wouldn't have given up the market and patent dominance in the interests of an industry wide non-discriminatory standard. They did some things as sensible cross patents but I don't think they always do)
rasz 7y ago
No such thing as one standard Mini USB. I worked at PC parts&accessories supplier pre 2007 and we carried something like 5 proprietary variants of mini USB. The only way to match "mini" USB was to ask for particular brand or make client bring the device with him. 5-pin, 4-pin, 8pin Nikon, 4pin Sony, etc. It was a mess.
- metaphor 7y ago
  I suppose that partially explains the historical revisions of this spec[1] circa 2006, including new IP agreement and criteria for "mini" products. [1] https://usb.org/sites/default/files/CabConn20.pdf https://usb.org/sites/default/files/CabConn20.pdf
seaish 7y ago
If you replace Mini USB with Micro USB and replace Micro USB with USB C, most of the answer still makes sense.
Causality1 7y ago
I can only speak from personal experience, but Mini-B female connectors had a truly incredible propensity for breaking loose off the board they were soldered to, and the male connectors bent inward at the slightest pressure. Granted type-C isn't much better in the latter regard, I've thrown out multiple cables after finding they somehow got squished flat.
kabacha 7y ago
> The micro-USB connector was designed with these past failings in mind and has a rated lifetime of about 10,000 insertion cycles I find it hard to believe that. Micro-USB in my experience has been the most unreliable cable type I've ever had. Doesn't matter if it's an expensive one that came with your premium phone or a chinese one from alibaba - something breaks with then within a year of casual use.
- theclaw 7y ago
  It’s the socket that’s rated, not the cable.
lostphilosopher 7y ago
After having two phones fail due to the mini connector I switched to only wireless charging and I love it. I understand the charging performance hit, but that's much more easily mitigated than sketchy cords/ports.
equalunique 7y ago
I was involved in discussions and part of the decision loop. Then a very big and leading mobile phone maker asked for it, even designed most part with a leading connector maker. USB IF eventually bite the bullet and accepted. Probably 2B+ of these connectors are shipped to date. Frank's answer, given in 2011, seemed most interesting to me. Scroll a little further and he names Nokia as the driving force.
Glyptodon 7y ago
My phones' micro-b ports pretty much become worn out in 1 year 10 months +/- every time. I hate to imagine how much worse it'd be.
shereadsthenews 7y ago
Can we have a roundup of worst-ever computer connectors? I'll open with the stupefyingly bad SCSI VHDCI connector, which was a teensy little thing with a couple of tiny screws usually attached to a gigantic cable that weighed at least a kilogram. These things never worked right without extra mechanical supports.
- tyingq 7y ago
  Ethernet "thicknet" AUI has to be the worst. Aside from being difficult to insert, it had a shit flimsy metal slider to hold it in place. I fixed a countless number of tickets of disconnected AUI connections in my career. 10BASE2/thinnet and coax/BNC was a godsend when it arrived. Mercifully followed by the current RG45 cables. It's at least encouraging that the powers-that-be improved it over time. Somewhat off, though, because the more complicated VGA connections, at the time, had almost zero issues. So we knew and understood the problem space, and just ignored the right solution.
  - shereadsthenews 7y ago
    The clip was bad, but some equipment came with screws instead. I wonder what the deal was with the clip. It certainly wasn't the only connector with clips. There was some SCSI generations with spring clips and the later, smaller VESA DFP had them.
    - tyingq 7y ago
      I remember that as well. Whoever the clip proponent was should have served some appropriate penance :) Also, "vampire taps", WTF????[1] That was a hot mess. [1] Sad memories of coiling AUI cables and inserting properly spaced AUI vampire taps because MGMT wouldn't splurge for a proper ethernet switch.
      - kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
        The micro SCSI clips worked well.
RenRav 7y ago
A lot of my old devices have mini connectors, they work, as does micro. I think when the original iphone was released they just wanted something thinner, anticipating future thin smart phones.
donatj 7y ago
I've heard this many times. I have never had a mini USB plug or cable fail. I've had a couple micros fail on me in cheap devices. The future I fear is far worse, my current phone, OnePlus 5t has the second failed USB-C port, my previous being a Google Pixel. USB-C cables connections in my experience become weak after maybe 50-100 uses. I never had a single problem with a long line of micro phones.
- shaklee3 7y ago
  I've had a Nexus 6p going on 4 years. Used the same cable the whole time. Maybe you're using cheap cables?
meuk 7y ago
Broken mini USB connectors are a pet peeve of mine. I literaly threw away my last three phones for the single reason the mini USB port wouldn't hold on to any cable anymore. This doesn't bother most other people, but I like to use my phone for longer than 2-3 years. I really don't see the point in buying a marginally faster phone every other year. It's wasteful for the environment and costs a lot of money.
- icebraining 7y ago
  Mini or micro? I don't remember phones with mini-USB ports.
  - Nextgrid 7y ago
    Some early Windows Mobile-powered HTC devices did.
  - Lutzb 7y ago
    My original Motorola Razr had a mini USB port.
  - duskwuff 7y ago
    Micro-USB was only introduced in 2007, and was uncommon before 2010 or so. Before it was available, most phones either used mini-USB or proprietary connectors.
  - deniska 7y ago
    HTC Hero and many other phones from that era had a mini-USB port.
- bentpins 7y ago
  A fair amount of phones the charging port as a modular component or on a replaceable charging board. Makes fixing this issue cheap/easy
- duskwuff 7y ago
  Are you sure that's the connector you mean? Most phones started using micro-USB around 2010.
gowld 7y ago
A lot of words to say the obvious answer: micro is smaller, and phones are thinner now.
0b0001 7y ago
How likely is it to accidentally rip off the inner part of sockets? It happens, I know that from personal experience. But how does compare with the wear during normal use? Type C and Lightning nearly look like plug & socket components. I understand type C moved the springs to the plug. But how often do people rip out the socket?
RandomGuyDTB 7y ago
Mini's still on my TI-84+ and I can only speak anecdotally but I've never had a single cable die or have a socket go loose. I plugged and unplugged it probably ten times a day last year for six months so I could work on making my first calculator game. I go through a micro-USB cable once a month. I buy them in bulk. I hate the standard with a passion. I don't like thin devices- if they could make thicker phones that have mini I'd buy them instead.
- rightbyte 7y ago
  Micro sockets get full with dust too and are really hard to clean. My last two phones usb sockets died on me. I got this feeling the mini is more robust. It got way better metal support for the plug. Edit: Couldnt remember which is which.
bni 7y ago
So in the time frame that Apple has switched connector once for the iPhone, there has been at least 3 versions of small USB connectors (Not counting the larger types here that are at least 2). Usually Apple is the one scolded "for switching connectors every few years to suck out more money" How come?

292 points by liyanage 7y ago

And for those who disbelieve the 'it isn't reliable' story, I've got some worthless evaluation boards you can have where the mini-USB plug will no longer reliably hold on to a USB cable. Not a data set I realize, but I was glad when people switched to micro which has proven more reliable for me. Of course lightning was better still but alas Apple wasn't going to share that with the world so we have USB C.

pathartl 7y ago
Yeah I recently moved to a Galaxy S10 which is my first device I use on a regular basis that has a USB-C port. The size of the connector, reversible nature, data throughput, and power throughput are excellent. The interconnect itself though leaves a bit to be desired. I still think that lightning is more satisfying from a tactile standpoint. I think USB still has the issue of the floating spade in the female connector. When inserting a cable, I will sometimes catch the spade and I often worry about if this degrades the life of the connector.
- neltnerb 7y ago
  I've found my biggest issue is that over many months it gets a thin film of grime deep inside that I have to pick out with a needle to make it work again properly. Micro and C both, but with C it's way easier to break the contacts while cleaning.
  - chronogram 7y ago
    Try a wooden toothpick instead of a metal needle.
    - virgilp 7y ago
      Wooden toothpicks are often too thick. My swiss army knife has a flat plastic toothpick that seems to have been designed exactly for the job of cleaning USB-C ports: https://i.redd.it/79iesas532521.jpg https://i.redd.it/79iesas532521.jpg
      - lpcvoid 7y ago
        Thanks, that is a neat idea! What also works are these plastic cocktail sticks that are used for little appetizers on partys.
      - martyvis 7y ago
        Cut a corner at an oblique angle and it makes the perfect implement.
      - gumby 7y ago
        If you look at the minutes of the committee meetings you'll see this was an explicit design choice. (Actually I'm kidding, but it would make a funny rumour.) Edit: curse you HN for the otherwise sensible collapsing of blank lines..makes these jokes harder.
  - masklinn 7y ago
    Lightning has the same issue. And while there's more space, the springy pins are also part of the socket rather than the plug so it's a bit iffy.
- GordonS 7y ago
  > The size of the connector, reversible nature The non-reversible nature of USB A connectors drives me crazy - is it only me that ends up turning them and failing at least 3 times before they slot in?!
  - watersb 7y ago
    http://innoculous.com/2016/01/the-quantum-physics-of-usb-plugs/ http://innoculous.com/2016/01/the-quantum-physics-of-usb-plu...
    - GordonS 7y ago
      Haha, love it, it's not just me then!
iforgotpassword 7y ago
I don't have issues believing that, but I still kinda need an ELI5 of why micro is more durable. The accepted answer on SO briefly addresses it but I'm not really any wiser, maybe in part because I'm not a native speaker.
- Kliment 7y ago
  For the mini, the wobbly springy bits are in the device, for the micro the wobbly springy bits are in the cable. The cable is cheaper and easier to replace. The springy bits bend out of shape over time and fail.
  - ChuckMcM 7y ago
    That is an excellent way to put it, I'm going to steal that if you don't mind.
    - Kliment 7y ago
      I don't mind in the slightest. Use any way you please.
  - iforgotpassword 7y ago
    Now that truly qualifies as a concise ELI5. Well done. :-)
  - megaremote 7y ago
    I still don't get this: https://i2.wp.com/www.cheapharddrivesstorage.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/c-appleus-lightning-smartphone-cable-type-_micro-usb-vs-mini-usb-c-appleus-lightning-connector-smartphone-cable-to-hdmi-cables-u-adapters.jpg https://i2.wp.com/www.cheapharddrivesstorage.com/wp-content/...
    - Dylan16807 7y ago
      Here is a mini usb socket showing the metal latch that pushes into the plug: https://image.dhgate.com/albu_198781941_00/1.0x0.jpg https://image.dhgate.com/albu_198781941_00/1.0x0.jpg Here is the other side of the micro usb plug, showing the two metal latches that push into the socket: https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/OesAAOSwxu5ZF07R/s-l300.jpg https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/OesAAOSwxu5ZF07R/s-l300.jpg And like someone else said, that ain't a micro usb socket in your image.
mc32 7y ago
USB-C usability on laptops for peripherals and especially power is bad. The connectors become loose and come out with little resistance. For charging even barrel connectors were better, but prefer the magnetic connectors.
- aeternus 7y ago
  Magnetic really seems great for connections, I wonder why it isn't used more.
  - mntmoss 7y ago
    With nicer connectors, and non-standard connectors, there's usually additional manufacturing cost involved that makes for expensive plugs and cables. As such the standards get driven by every manufacturer wanting to save a few pennies on I/O, while acknowledging that some applications might prefer quick removal or a secure lock. I have a pair of high-end AKG headphones that uses a "mini-XLR" connection. This is a non-standard variant of the popular 3-pin XLR used throughout pro audio equipment. When the provided cable that converts mini-XLR to 3.5mm TRS started failing, I went onto Amazon and found a generic $11 cable, but within a week of use it became clear that it was poorly made, with a metal cap acting as the only source of strain relief. I've ordered another adapter, one that adapts the plug to 3.5mm without a cable, and it also costs $11. Not as bad cost-wise as some Apple device cables, but fingers crossed.
  - q3k 7y ago
    There being an Apple patent [1] involved doesn't help. [1] - https://patents.google.com/patent/US7311526B2/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US7311526B2/en
    - GuB-42 7y ago
      Apple didn't make the first magnetic connector. It was already common for fondue sets. The patent is about Apple's particular implementation. I suppose it wouldn't be that hard to work around if people really wanted to.
gumby 7y ago
> Of course lightning was better still but alas Apple wasn't going to share that with the world so we have USB C. Apple was a major contributor to the Type C design, and learning from the limitations of lighting were reflected in its design. Like you I really like the small profile of lightning, but the design of the Type C connector does have two important advantages thanks to its shell/shroud design: 1 - The "springy" piece that deforms is the cable not the receptacle. That means when the connection becomes flimsy this is more likely to be the replaceable cables (though some of the cables can be pricy, it's likely still cheaper than replacing the device) 2 - the shroud is ground and is longer than the pins, thus you have a ground connection before you get to any signal or power (like the longer ground pin in UK and Schuko connectors. This doesn't matter much for a USB2 cable but is a safety issue when you have 100W on the cable. And back to Apple: much as lightning is good for them, it isn't really an instrument of MFI enforcement; they can enforce that just as well with type C. They already have type C iPads so I expect they'll gradually abandon lightning. The iPod 30-pin connector lasted about 9 years and lightning is 7 years old so this isn't unreasonable. And I believe it would make the EU happy.
- DannyBee 7y ago
  "Apple was a major contributor to the Type C design" Citation? As far as i know, it was created almost entirely by a team at Google, and the agreement to get Apple on board was to not publicize this fact. Which is really sad, because then John Gruber then went off and credited their work to Apple without bothering to fact check it. IIRC, Apple was not even at the USB meeting where it was first presented. I'm sure post coming on board Apple contributed, but yeah. (Various xooglers and others have confirmed all this publicly now, AFAIK)
  - bigdubs 7y ago
    One interesting data point (though I really don't care where this all leads): 18 of the 79 named engineers worked for Apple. https://www.docdroid.net/uf3z/typec.pdf https://www.docdroid.net/uf3z/typec.pdf My sense is the spec was designed by a consortium and no one company owns it, but I would bet Apple did contribute lessons from lightning to it.
oceanghost 7y ago
To add to your post. I was part of an effort to develop several remote controls for a company. The micro USB was always the first thing that died. Like you, I had a graveyard of broken remotes. Dozens.
kalleboo 7y ago
Oddly enough I've actually had much worse reliability with Lightning than with MicroUSB. Our home has suffered bad from corroded power pins[0]. What happens is you have one lightning cable with a bad contact, and that causes electric arcing to corrode the power pin in the phone, and now the phone will have bad contact with any new cable you bring in, causing arcing on that cable. Now if you have multiple devices in a household sharing the same charging cables, the "plague" spreads. The only solution is to buy all new chargers, iPhones and iPads all at the same time. [0] https://www.zdnet.com/article/lightning-cables-failing-due-to-corrosion/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/lightning-cables-failing-due-t...
- sbierwagen 7y ago
  I would be very surprised if you were getting arc damage with five volts at two amps. More plausible would be some electrochemical/galvanic corrosion effect.
- gowld 7y ago
  Arcing and corrosion isn't contagious. Humidity causes arcing and corrosion; corrosion would prevent arcing for the same reason it would prevent charging -- it increases resistance.
  - kalleboo 7y ago
    Then what IS the explanation for all of our lightning cables quickly developing blackened and pitted power pins? This was the only explanation I could find.
    - jhayward 7y ago
      There were a number of people posting in forums about this back in 2014 or so. Apple even went so far as to contact folks and ask them to send the cables in for analysis. As far as I know, the consensus was that perhaps the port contact spring was failing to maintain a good connection. I don't know what the current status is but it doesn't seem to be an inherent design issue, except for the fact that the port has the springy bits and isn't easily replaced.
rstuart4133 7y ago
> Of course lightning was better still but alas Apple wasn't going to share that with the world so we have USB C. And for me USB-C has been the most unreliable connector by far - I've had more of them fail that any prior sort of USB connector. But that comes with a caveat - it's always the cables that fail. Replace the cable and it's all good again. I'm coming to accept the fact that any USB-C cable used daily will have to be replaced within the year, which is really annoying. The USB micro A connector is far more reliable.

ebg13 7y ago

I'm skeptical. Hands up anyone who hasn't had dozens of micro USB cables fail on them because of the connector?

jpm_sd 7y ago
That's the new trade-off. The cable plug fails instead of the socket on the device. Cables are cheap.
- opencl 7y ago
  The cable plug is supposed to fail instead of the socket on the device. Actual testing[1] demonstrates that the microUSB socket on the device does not last the rated 10k cycles and also that the cable lasts longer than the socket on the device. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqtNleXhTRE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqtNleXhTRE TL;DW- Repeated insertion and removal led to the socket on the microUSB SSD failing after 8000 cycles, cable was still fine. USB-C still worked after 8000 cycles.
  - silversconfused 7y ago
    That video tested insertions, which is not the only type of abuse phones take. Falling, being shoved into poor angles, being removed from charging at a suboptimal angle (eg, walking away with it plugged in), for example are more common causes of phone cord failure in microusb.
  - imhoguy 7y ago
    That is statisticaly insignificant show test: sample of 1. Moreover the micro-USB-B 3.0 was tested which is wider, harder to plug as has much more pins to fail vs more common micro USB-B 2.0
- jandrese 7y ago
  I've suspected this myself, but I think they went too far. Even minor incidents are prone to breaking a micro-USB connector where a mini-USB would tough it out. But there's a bigger chance of damaging the mini-USB port. All in all I think the micro-USB connector could have been made a little sturdier without excessive danger to the port. On the other hand, I've never fatally damaged a Lightning cable OR port, despite some fairly bad accidents (drops that land on the connector for example). The only failures were a couple where the outer coating started to come off right past the strain relief, the connector itself was always solid for me. The jury is still out on USB-C for me. I just don't have enough datapoints, but it does seem more robust on the surface and finally (finally!) the cable can be inserted in either orientation.

AdmiralAsshat 7y ago

Strange. My PS3 has been in regular use since 2011 or so (the console itself being a used launch model from 2008), and I don't recall the mini-USB port on the controller ever failing to charge. I suppose I'd have to check the serial number on the controller, though, to see if it's actually that one that came with the console--I may have switched it out with one that I bought later for multiplayer purposes without realizing it. The controller only gets charged once every three weeks or so, now that I think about it, so it could well still be under that failure threshold.

merpnderp 7y ago
My ps3 has to have the controllers cocked at the right angle to charge. Mileage I guess varies.
alias_neo 7y ago
I have to agree, again, anecdotally. I have Mini cables and devices that have been in use for well over a decade. I've never in my life had a Mini cable fail on me. I've had countless Micro cables fail on me electro-mechanically. Usually either the latch fails, not a huge deal, but not great, or the contacts "flatten" or don't contact any more. I've lost so many that I've taken to cutting the bad connectors off and soldering new ones on since I have the tools and the skills, and I don't buy cheap cables (in the hope they'll last longer) so the rest of it is usually worth saving.
- dwaite 7y ago
  The original mini-b port was rated for 1000 insertion MTBF (I swear one friend's cellphones were closer to 500, as they were going through 3 a year.) It was revised to fail at 5000 MTBF, much more acceptable for something that may be plugged in multiple times a day. Micro USB was rated I believe at 10k MTBF, and moved the faily bits to the cable. The USB-IF obsoleted the Mini-A and Mini-AB plugs at that point (which are really only used for USB-OTG, which is rare). They still let the 5k MTBF mini sockets get certified on new devices, however.
  - 7y ago

Izkata 7y ago

I have an alternate theory, based on something the comments over there reminded me of: Back in the mini-usb era, most of my family bought Razr phones. All of them broke in various ways in under a year (one actually snapped in half), because they weren't very careful about handling the phones. Nowadays, new phones last several years and are usually upgraded instead of needing replacement after breaking. For most of my family, those phones were the first small electronics they had that they kept on them. But my dad had a Blackberry before that, and I had a GBA - we never had issues breaking our "fragile" phones. I think mini-usb was deemed fragile compared to micro-usb because a significantly larger proportion of the population didn't know how to handle them, and the manufacturers/etc identified the wrong problem.

closetohome 7y ago
> But my dad had a Blackberry before that, and I had a GBA - we never had issues breaking our "fragile" phones. I think this is a really interesting point. I see so many people complain about "fragile" smartphones, and whose phones always seem to have a cracked screen. Really it just comes down to taking care of your things, and treating expensive electronics like expensive electronics.
- zaat 7y ago
  Most expensive electronics are actually much more durable than smartphones, and you usually not taking them with you wherever you go. I can handle ceramics and crystal glasses just fine, but I don't take them with me when I go hiking.
  - closetohome 7y ago
    I honestly can't think of any complex electronics I own that are more durable than my iPhone. Nothing else is waterproof, for starters. And the phone has survived some pretty gnarly drops and falls.
    - zaat 7y ago

neonscribe 7y ago

USB-C has its issues, but it is clearly better than any previous connector.

akvadrako 7y ago
It’s not - I had the new MBP and every day had issues with USB-C devices coming loose and losing connections. A connector that comes disconnected with the smallest movement is not that good.
- mprev 7y ago
  Agreed. USB c is unreliable in that just a small movement is enough for it to disconnect while appearing to be plugged in.
- SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
  Didja get lint in there? I'm incredibly impressed with the USB-based products I've dealt with.
  - sixothree 7y ago
    I have an HP notebook and the USB C connector does seem to wiggle itself loose throughout the day.
    - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
      Maybe I've just been lucky - my phone had difficulty for a brief period about a year ago, and I'd gotten worried the port was failing but pulling out the lint has the connection like new now.
  - scottlamb 7y ago
    That's been the problem for me. I couldn't use my Pixel 3's USB-C port for charging or data anymore, until yesterday I finally dug out a shocking amount of pocket lint. Compressed air and a vacuum didn't do it. And it's hard to find a tool that will fit in there. My toothpicks were too thick. The end of a zip tie (as suggested on some reddit thread) works well for the long section but not the ends. It's probably not advisable, but in the end I used a safety pin.

csours 7y ago

Slightly OT: why did it take so many iterations to get to USB-C?

silversconfused 7y ago
There's probably something like moores law for consumer device attachment pin density...
jolmg 7y ago
As I understand it, USB-C is considerably more complex than the first few iterations. The goal of the first few iterations was to become a standard cable and connector, and for that it needed to be simple, to lower the cost of implementation and have a good chance of widespread adoption.
- jandrese 7y ago
  "Considerably more complex" is probably underselling it. A fully capable port has a withering array of signaling standards to support, as well as supporting very high data transfer rates. It's a seriously challenging port to implement. Not something where you can buy a $2 chip and support a dozen ports like USB2.
  - jdietrich 7y ago
    Even setting aside the electronics, the physical socket is an order of magnitude more expensive. A lot of budget phones still use MicroUSB purely for cost reasons, because that $1 of BoM cost can be better used elsewhere.
    - dave7 7y ago
      Gamer's Nexus Youtube channel recently did a tour of Shenzen and produced an amazing "How it's Made" series on the components making up the majority of a modern gaming PC. One such video covers USB-C cables, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1Tmtd51clI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1Tmtd51clI Titled: Why USB3 Type-C Isn’t on More Cases | How Cables Are Made Factory Tour In brief - the cables are way more complicated, with many very thin cores. To the point they require manual labour from people in a lot of spots where simpler cables can be automated. Therefore slow to produce and expensive! Whole series is well worth a watch. The playlist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD5U3JZNVuk&list=PLsuVSmND84QuVMZuk2HGUtCSYXR7nmC5a https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD5U3JZNVuk&list=PLsuVSmND84...

TheGRS 7y ago

Scroll down past the accepted answer and you see what is likely the real one. A manufacturer came to the standardization board with a new design, asked for it, probably lobbied them for it greatly, and they eventually accepted it. Reasons for why the manufacturer wanted this aren't stated, I'm sure its a mix of engineering ideas, wishes, dreams and some mix of gaining an upper-hand in whatever market was there at the time. Obligatory XKCD: https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/

itsaidpens 7y ago

Reminder that Apple designed the USB-C connector, which is why it's so friggin' user friendly!

daxterspeed 7y ago
Got a source on that? I'm genuinely interested to hear about it.
- itsaidpens 7y ago
  Yep! Here's one - it's light on specifics but the gist is that Apple was heavily influential on the actual connector design, not anything related to spec/bus etc. https://9to5mac.com/2015/03/14/apple-invent-usb-type-c/ https://9to5mac.com/2015/03/14/apple-invent-usb-type-c/
  - daxterspeed 7y ago
    I'd personally say it's a bit gratuitous to say that Apple designed the connector, but their contribution was clearly significant, even if the politics of the matter mean that we'll never truly know if Apple spearheaded the design or made any significant demands. Still, an interesting bit of history!
    - itsaidpens 7y ago
      Agreed. I wish we had more details. A hint of apple's touch is simply the radius of the connector metal - it's very elegant.
      - dTal 7y ago
        I mean, the radius is half the thickness of the connector - it couldn't really be anything else.
        hammock 7y ago

dmckeon 7y ago

The real longevity plan for plugs is not X,000 cycles, but “Will it work until I lose it?”

Macha 7y ago
Depends on your use case I guess? I've never lost a micro usb cable but at this stage I've had tens of them fail on me.

joezydeco 7y ago

Mini/Micro USB also suffers from a superposition rule* much like the A connector: whenever you need a mini or micro cable, your drawer will be completely full of the opposite type. * https://imgur.com/gallery/kYGTLjc https://imgur.com/gallery/kYGTLjc

m463 7y ago
My cheap lightning cables are not commutative. If it doesn't work, flip it over and it might work.
- gumby 7y ago
  I people have been voting this down, but I have seen this very occasionally in the wild. I don't have a good theory; my guess is either some tolerance combined with gunk on a pin or gunk on a bin that is dislodged by removal and re-insertion. But it doesn't happen enough for a good controlled experiment.
  - freeflight 7y ago
    I have the same problem with Anker lightning cables, which I don't consider that "cheap", on both an iPhone SE and an iPad air. The issue persists even after replacing the iPhone lightning port with a brand new one, across two different Anker cables. I guess I'll be sticking to original Apple cables, still, it's mildly infuriating.
  - m463 7y ago
    I suspect there is circuitry involved in these cables, and it is either not implemented, poorly implemented or prone to failure.
city41 7y ago
mini usb is basically extinct in my house. But now I’ve got the same conundrum with micro and usb-c. Oh what I wouldn’t give for one connector to rule them all.

AcerbicZero 7y ago

This is a great answer, but for some reason the author left out the most obvious of reasons. Mini-USB put the mechanical strain of the connection on the socket side, while Micro-USB puts that strain on the cable side. Since its much easier to toss a cable vs remove and solder in a new socket connector the average cycle lifetime became much less critical in general.

favorited 7y ago
For a few years I was bringing my Happy Hacking Keyboard to and from work every day, meaning (at least) 2 plug/unplug pairs per weekday. I'm kind of surprised it still works because it's pretty old. I eventually got a second one which I leave at the office, but was kind of surprised that years later they hadn't replaced mini with micro. There are some mods people are building to replace the mini port with type-c, and I expect I'll try something like that when it eventually starts to fail.
megaremote 7y ago
I don't see how that can be true: https://i2.wp.com/www.cheapharddrivesstorage.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/c-appleus-lightning-smartphone-cable-type-_micro-usb-vs-mini-usb-c-appleus-lightning-connector-smartphone-cable-to-hdmi-cables-u-adapters.jpg https://i2.wp.com/www.cheapharddrivesstorage.com/wp-content/...
- rasz 7y ago
  Electro mechanical connection requires springiness action to be reliable - one side of the connector needs to work pushing pins together. In full size and mini USB elastic pins are inside sockets, plugs have rigid contacts http://www.hobbytronics.co.uk/image/cache/data/rapid/mini-usb-plug-rewire-500x500.jpg http://www.hobbytronics.co.uk/image/cache/data/rapid/mini-us... Micro swaps that around, moving prone to failure (bend/pushed pin etc) elements into the cable.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- duskwuff 7y ago

ggm 7y ago

Apple isn't always that kind of company, but would lightning have been a mechanically simpler cable than USB-C? (I mean, wouldn't have given up the market and patent dominance in the interests of an industry wide non-discriminatory standard. They did some things as sensible cross patents but I don't think they always do)

rasz 7y ago

No such thing as one standard Mini USB. I worked at PC parts&accessories supplier pre 2007 and we carried something like 5 proprietary variants of mini USB. The only way to match "mini" USB was to ask for particular brand or make client bring the device with him. 5-pin, 4-pin, 8pin Nikon, 4pin Sony, etc. It was a mess.

metaphor 7y ago
I suppose that partially explains the historical revisions of this spec[1] circa 2006, including new IP agreement and criteria for "mini" products. [1] https://usb.org/sites/default/files/CabConn20.pdf https://usb.org/sites/default/files/CabConn20.pdf

seaish 7y ago

If you replace Mini USB with Micro USB and replace Micro USB with USB C, most of the answer still makes sense.

Causality1 7y ago

I can only speak from personal experience, but Mini-B female connectors had a truly incredible propensity for breaking loose off the board they were soldered to, and the male connectors bent inward at the slightest pressure. Granted type-C isn't much better in the latter regard, I've thrown out multiple cables after finding they somehow got squished flat.

kabacha 7y ago

> The micro-USB connector was designed with these past failings in mind and has a rated lifetime of about 10,000 insertion cycles I find it hard to believe that. Micro-USB in my experience has been the most unreliable cable type I've ever had. Doesn't matter if it's an expensive one that came with your premium phone or a chinese one from alibaba - something breaks with then within a year of casual use.

theclaw 7y ago
It’s the socket that’s rated, not the cable.

lostphilosopher 7y ago

After having two phones fail due to the mini connector I switched to only wireless charging and I love it. I understand the charging performance hit, but that's much more easily mitigated than sketchy cords/ports.

equalunique 7y ago

I was involved in discussions and part of the decision loop. Then a very big and leading mobile phone maker asked for it, even designed most part with a leading connector maker. USB IF eventually bite the bullet and accepted. Probably 2B+ of these connectors are shipped to date. Frank's answer, given in 2011, seemed most interesting to me. Scroll a little further and he names Nokia as the driving force.

Glyptodon 7y ago

My phones' micro-b ports pretty much become worn out in 1 year 10 months +/- every time. I hate to imagine how much worse it'd be.

shereadsthenews 7y ago

Can we have a roundup of worst-ever computer connectors? I'll open with the stupefyingly bad SCSI VHDCI connector, which was a teensy little thing with a couple of tiny screws usually attached to a gigantic cable that weighed at least a kilogram. These things never worked right without extra mechanical supports.

tyingq 7y ago
Ethernet "thicknet" AUI has to be the worst. Aside from being difficult to insert, it had a shit flimsy metal slider to hold it in place. I fixed a countless number of tickets of disconnected AUI connections in my career. 10BASE2/thinnet and coax/BNC was a godsend when it arrived. Mercifully followed by the current RG45 cables. It's at least encouraging that the powers-that-be improved it over time. Somewhat off, though, because the more complicated VGA connections, at the time, had almost zero issues. So we knew and understood the problem space, and just ignored the right solution.
- shereadsthenews 7y ago
  The clip was bad, but some equipment came with screws instead. I wonder what the deal was with the clip. It certainly wasn't the only connector with clips. There was some SCSI generations with spring clips and the later, smaller VESA DFP had them.
  - tyingq 7y ago
    I remember that as well. Whoever the clip proponent was should have served some appropriate penance :) Also, "vampire taps", WTF????[1] That was a hot mess. [1] Sad memories of coiling AUI cables and inserting properly spaced AUI vampire taps because MGMT wouldn't splurge for a proper ethernet switch.
    - kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
      The micro SCSI clips worked well.

RenRav 7y ago

A lot of my old devices have mini connectors, they work, as does micro. I think when the original iphone was released they just wanted something thinner, anticipating future thin smart phones.

donatj 7y ago

I've heard this many times. I have never had a mini USB plug or cable fail. I've had a couple micros fail on me in cheap devices. The future I fear is far worse, my current phone, OnePlus 5t has the second failed USB-C port, my previous being a Google Pixel. USB-C cables connections in my experience become weak after maybe 50-100 uses. I never had a single problem with a long line of micro phones.

shaklee3 7y ago
I've had a Nexus 6p going on 4 years. Used the same cable the whole time. Maybe you're using cheap cables?

meuk 7y ago

Broken mini USB connectors are a pet peeve of mine. I literaly threw away my last three phones for the single reason the mini USB port wouldn't hold on to any cable anymore. This doesn't bother most other people, but I like to use my phone for longer than 2-3 years. I really don't see the point in buying a marginally faster phone every other year. It's wasteful for the environment and costs a lot of money.

icebraining 7y ago
Mini or micro? I don't remember phones with mini-USB ports.
- Nextgrid 7y ago
  Some early Windows Mobile-powered HTC devices did.
- Lutzb 7y ago
  My original Motorola Razr had a mini USB port.
- duskwuff 7y ago
  Micro-USB was only introduced in 2007, and was uncommon before 2010 or so. Before it was available, most phones either used mini-USB or proprietary connectors.
- deniska 7y ago
  HTC Hero and many other phones from that era had a mini-USB port.
bentpins 7y ago
A fair amount of phones the charging port as a modular component or on a replaceable charging board. Makes fixing this issue cheap/easy
duskwuff 7y ago
Are you sure that's the connector you mean? Most phones started using micro-USB around 2010.

gowld 7y ago

A lot of words to say the obvious answer: micro is smaller, and phones are thinner now.

0b0001 7y ago

How likely is it to accidentally rip off the inner part of sockets? It happens, I know that from personal experience. But how does compare with the wear during normal use? Type C and Lightning nearly look like plug & socket components. I understand type C moved the springs to the plug. But how often do people rip out the socket?

RandomGuyDTB 7y ago

Mini's still on my TI-84+ and I can only speak anecdotally but I've never had a single cable die or have a socket go loose. I plugged and unplugged it probably ten times a day last year for six months so I could work on making my first calculator game. I go through a micro-USB cable once a month. I buy them in bulk. I hate the standard with a passion. I don't like thin devices- if they could make thicker phones that have mini I'd buy them instead.

rightbyte 7y ago
Micro sockets get full with dust too and are really hard to clean. My last two phones usb sockets died on me. I got this feeling the mini is more robust. It got way better metal support for the plug. Edit: Couldnt remember which is which.

bni 7y ago

So in the time frame that Apple has switched connector once for the iPhone, there has been at least 3 versions of small USB connectors (Not counting the larger types here that are at least 2). Usually Apple is the one scolded "for switching connectors every few years to suck out more money" How come?