33 ms·

Steve Wozniak on why he is leaving Facebook [video]

129 points by randomerr 8y ago

bitxbitxbitcoin 8y ago
Is this the catalyst for change away from those companies, or just another passing bout of enlightenment that will be forgotten by the masses by the midterm elections?
- briandear 8y ago
  My dad and probably your “normal” relatives probably don’t care what Woz thinks. I stopped using Facebook, but nobody else I know actually cares. I’m in anecdote-land, I know, but honestly, the general public is addicted to Facebook. This isn’t a MySpace analog — MySpace was a playground of the fickle young. Once Aunt Edna is on Facebook, it’s going to be hard to dethrone. Aunt Edna was never on MySpace, so it was much easier for that platform to crash. It’s also sad and hilarious to me that people have said they’ll stop using Facebook, instead they’ll use WhatsApp or Instagram. Same horse, different fleas.
  - briandear 8y ago
    As an addendum, I find it strange that people are “deactivating” their accounts. What does that even mean? Facebook still has your data and you are still being tracked. Unless millions actually delete their account (and Facebook actually DOES delete it,) nothing will change. Unless I can query the Facebook database, how do I know anything is actually deleted? I find it hard to believe that anyone can actually get a confirmed deletion from any social service. We are trusting that delete actually means deleted.
    - dublinben 8y ago
      As you point out, there is no difference between "deactivating" and "deleting" your account, because Facebook doesn't delete anything. Either one is just a statement that you will no longer use Facebook. Anything that hurts their MAU numbers is an effective protest. Just look at their stock price in the last month.
    - 908087 8y ago
      Under GDPR, Facebook will be facing some serious trouble if they try to continue the not-really-deletion deletion thing, so at least there's some hope for those who reside in Europe on this front. That said, even for those who are in countries like the US, deactivation and ceasing "engagement" with Facebook is still at least one step better than continuing to actively feed them data.
      - mnsc 8y ago
        This is the reason I haven't deleted my FB yet, I'm going to send so many letters this June! And then I'm going to be joyously forgotten for real! And then I'm going to send more letters to see how forgotten I truly am! GDPR = Get Damn Priers Rekt
- m-p-3 8y ago
  Most likely the second, because when the media jump on their next topic the average user will switch back to apathy.
- 908087 8y ago
  When Trump got elected, I was hopeful that it would result in the many people who were asleep at the wheel on surveillance-related issues (among other matters that self-described democrats were willing to ignore as long as "their guy" was in office) during the Obama presidency finally waking up. Hopefully it sticks, but I'm giving it maybe a 25% chance of doing so, ironically due to the ADD-like attention span social media has cultivated across society.
- coldacid 8y ago
  Hopefully the former, but given how most "normal" people tend to respond to these things, most likely the latter.
- rm_-rf_slash 8y ago
  Was Edward Snowden the catalyst for change away from tolerating government dragnets? No, not enough to insist on “liberty [from dragnets] or death”, but it sure made a lot of people more aware about the spying powers of major govnerments on the devices people use every day. The toothpaste of paranoia cannot go back inside the tube of ignorance. This is that same moment for the private sector. Sadly, as another poster mentioned, people will scathe Facebook and go to Instagram or WhatsApp instead, changing nothing.
  - bogomipz 8y ago
    >"Was Edward Snowden the catalyst for change away from tolerating government dragnets?" Wait when were government dragnets ever tolerated? We are talking about things that undertaken in absolute secrecy. Was there legislative change taken in response? No or certainly nominally. Was there a change in the publics attitudes? Yes, absolutely. See: https://www.recode.net/2015/3/16/11560290/snowden-leaks-have-changed-how-americans-see-their-privacy https://www.recode.net/2015/3/16/11560290/snowden-leaks-have... Change isn't always instant and immediate.
- bogomipz 8y ago
  I think its too early to tell. I do think however that change will happen when or if people decide FB is not a company they want to work for. That despite a CEO who wears t shirts, the free gourmet meals and fro yo its just "megacorp" with questionable practices.
- Shivetya 8y ago
  I am not sure we have to wait that long, the masses may have never actually cared. We live in a world where many just shrug and accept what happens because they believe its the only possible outcomes. on sites like HN and even reddit are but a bubble
netzone 8y ago
I thought this was commonly known?
- ecocentrik 8y ago
  He's attempting to speak to a wider audience, remind those that know but haven't heard it in a while and attempting to trigger new realizations of the absurdity of promises to protect privacy by organizations who's primary revenue source is the exploitation of privacy.
- SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
  It's commonly parroted on HN.
deferment 8y ago
Wozniak struggles to remain relevant.
AndrewStephens 8y ago
The problem is that users see Facebook in a different way than Facebook sees itself. Users see a fun website where they can post pictures of their dog. Facebook sees ways to get companies to pay for access to those users. That disconnect is at the heart of all the issues around Facebook. Looks like it is time for my 2-monthly repost of The Seven Realities of Social Networking. https://sheep.horse/2013/10/the_seven_realities_of_social_networking.html https://sheep.horse/2013/10/the_seven_realities_of_social_ne...
- TheCapeGreek 8y ago
  Good summary of the realities. Also the drawing is 10/10.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- 394852034 8y ago
  It's kind of a typical abusive relationship where one party sees not only the relationship fundamentally with a different light, but one party is quite duplicitous and nefarious and abusive and manipulative in their interactions with intent of deception and keeping a comfortable and useful situation going for them while they prey on their usually naive and gullible and rather delusional victim. It's the typical naive girl or boy dating a cheating, lying, player ... only a global, systemic, humanity impacting level never before witnessed or experienced by humanity. On a side note; Apple has the opportunity to not only massively grow themselves, but also totally crush Facebook and Twitter if they were to build a product that centers control and power over information and data and content as much as possible with the users that generate it. Facebook, Twitter, and Google are revealing themselves as not just being a cute little mole, but full blown metastasized melanoma that must be treated immediately or it will invariably kill freedom and liberty on a scale and level that has also never been witnessed by humanity; a totalitarianism that will be virtually total in its surveillance and control and domination with zero ability for anyone to even object. The era of Techtalitarians is upon us.
- throwmenow_0140 8y ago
  This sums up my opinion about Facebook and how to properly use it without having to resort to Nietzsche or Freud. Neat link, thanks.
AnnoyingSwede 8y ago
Wozniak used to be ahead of time, but i can only agree that this is common knowledge now.. Soon we will see "Water makes you wet - S. Wozniak"
- goalieca 8y ago
  I doubt this is common knowledge. I have many friends who are not in the technology field and they have no idea. Many of them are informed and educated professionals but they cannot know about every issue until it makes the news. Woz is making the 6pm news with these quotes.
StefanFrost 8y ago
How has this not been obvious from the start? I can't be the only one that knew this from the start. Nothing is free.
justadudeama 8y ago
I realize this, but I still have a hard time not using Google services. I know they are analyzing my data for ads, but it in incredibly convenient for me to be on the exact same platform, from email with gmail and file storage with google drive and browser with chrome and android on my phone, they just seem to get me with one thing at a time in the name of standardization. What steps can be made to prevent this?
- icebraining 8y ago
  Prevent what? Making convenient things?
  - justadudeama 8y ago
    Having all of my data in Google Servers.
    - nicky0 8y ago
      Step one: Put it somewhere else.
- 394852034 8y ago
  You know what's also convenient, letting google decide every aspect of our lives for us and telling us what to think. It's bizarre to anyone born before maybe 1985 , to see what a heinous evil emerging, a kind of authoritarian marxist tech communism that is well on its way to becoming a totalitarian regime once it has convinced everyone to give up control over their lives out of "convenience" and for "safety" and "security". Who knew that the kiddos would read 1984 and think it was a manual? For anyone who wants to look into the background of this real military psychological war that has been waged upon the western world for decades now, but especially in the last 10, do yourself a favor and listen to what the defected KGB officer Yuri Bezmenov warned the west and in particular the USA and Americans about back in... fittingly... 1984. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3qkf3bajd4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3qkf3bajd4 There are all sorts of things the media and higher "education" keep from the peasantry.
- 8y ago
throwmenow_0140 8y ago
tl;dr - I explain in detail why you should use Facebook for your advantage instead of complaining about their lack of decency. Anybody who denies Facebook doesn't recognize its true value for ones personal brand. It's not about your data - you shouldn't do anything remotely personal on this platform, ever. It's all about personal marketing. And for this purpose, it is the perfect tool. You can decide how people perceive you and gain social power and influence other people. If you refuse to take this chance because they sell your data, you're wasting a big opportunity. It's known for years that they don't care about privacy, and neither should you when you use those platforms. Use encrypted and decentralized communication channels if you want to communicate without being spied on. But Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and Snapchat can be used to build powerful social influence. And this can be used to gain further power - I'm not a fan of Nietzsches "Will to power" bullshit, but I'm interested in power regardless to build my personal empire (maybe based on deep insecurity and narcissim, whatever rests under the consciousness). For all those Facebook haters: Your distaste for this platform stems from the fact that they don't value privacy and that people in general don't really care. But don't miss this opportunity just for the matter of doing "the right thing". If you're an existential nihilist like me, you recognize that all those opinions don't really matter (including yours) and are often used to find value in oneself like many vegetarians, no-facebookers, minimalists, etc. use it (I'm a vegetarian - it can be used to feel good about oneself if you prefer to give your narcisstic side those impulses. I try to avoid doing it for those reasons to overcome myself). Sigmund Freud called this the "Narcissim of small differences", don't get fooled by your unconscious side - even if you think that it's rational to avoid Facebook. Think in terms of power and how you gonna get it. I know, this certainly sounds like a sociopath, but you can do good things with this power. "Humans of New York" is a Facebook page that shows us how we can use this power for good. Don't hate the game. It's man-made and without any purpose like our whole existence. Learn to play it if you want to master life in this society. Otherwise you just support your ego - exactly like the people who are on Facebook. You're not smarter than them. Nobody here is including me. I just hope that people learn to value the opportunity and do a rational risk-assessment instead of using emotions of rejection because a company is selling user information. I don't support that Facebook does that, but we can still use their platform to our advantage while hiding our true personality (and therefore enforce our privacy). edit: Maybe most people who are on Facebook see it like this - although I have the notion that most people don't reflect on this level about their Facebook and social media usage.
GreeniFi 8y ago
Welcome to Restaurant Facebook. If you’re not at the table, you’re on the menu.
dumbfounder 8y ago
So Apple products are the high road here? Products that lock me in and force me to shell out money every few years to upgrade, force my friends/family to use the same platform (iphoto), creates gardens with massive walls (doesn't let Siri talk to apps, has a totalitarian regime of an app store), and more, or use the completely free Facebook where "I am the product"? Most people don't care and even I am not convinced being the product is necessarily a bad thing.
- Waterluvian 8y ago
  Every few years? Don't Apple products have unusually long lifespans and support durations?
  - gaius 8y ago
    Still using my 2008 MacBook Pro, it gets security updates but won’t run latest OSX.
  - dumbfounder 8y ago
    How easy is it to change a battery in your phone? Upgrade the memory? What about them slowing down the phone when the battery degrades, and only just recently to be called out for that?
    - slouch 8y ago
      Oh c'mon. The alternative to them slowing it down is an unexpected reboot. Is that what you want? Crashes?
      - dumbfounder 8y ago
        I want them to be transparent about such issues and then let me buy a new battery at the apple store when it gets to that point. They don't want to make this happen, they want me to buy a new phone.
Pigo 8y ago
I wonder if they'll be a sequel to The Social Network now.
- Zhyl 8y ago
  'The Circle' doesn't do a bad job of filling that niche.
oflannabhra 8y ago
I think the big takeaway here is not that Woz is saying this, but that USA Today is carrying a story about leaving Facebook. I'd almost guarantee that USA Today's readership has never been presented with the concepts regarding user data that we, here, are all very familiar with.
commenter1 8y ago
Good for him, but why should I care what he does?
- Shikadi 8y ago
  Ask yourself that question. If you find the answer is you shouldn't care, then don't click the link.
jonbarker 8y ago
The most troubling defense from FB I've heard is that product companies that charge for products and don't have ad supported models are inducing "Stockholm Syndrome" in those who defend that approach vs the free ad supported model. To me it seems that that analogy is stronger for those who don't pay for free products, as they are arguably more locked in than those who can 'vote with their wallets' and stop buying.
josefresco 8y ago
* Proceeds to check in via Foursquare
- vthallam 8y ago
  Swarm
itakedrugs 8y ago
he undeleted it yesterday, about 18 hours ago, for a while

129 points by randomerr 8y ago

Is this the catalyst for change away from those companies, or just another passing bout of enlightenment that will be forgotten by the masses by the midterm elections?

briandear 8y ago
My dad and probably your “normal” relatives probably don’t care what Woz thinks. I stopped using Facebook, but nobody else I know actually cares. I’m in anecdote-land, I know, but honestly, the general public is addicted to Facebook. This isn’t a MySpace analog — MySpace was a playground of the fickle young. Once Aunt Edna is on Facebook, it’s going to be hard to dethrone. Aunt Edna was never on MySpace, so it was much easier for that platform to crash. It’s also sad and hilarious to me that people have said they’ll stop using Facebook, instead they’ll use WhatsApp or Instagram. Same horse, different fleas.
- briandear 8y ago
  As an addendum, I find it strange that people are “deactivating” their accounts. What does that even mean? Facebook still has your data and you are still being tracked. Unless millions actually delete their account (and Facebook actually DOES delete it,) nothing will change. Unless I can query the Facebook database, how do I know anything is actually deleted? I find it hard to believe that anyone can actually get a confirmed deletion from any social service. We are trusting that delete actually means deleted.
  - dublinben 8y ago
    As you point out, there is no difference between "deactivating" and "deleting" your account, because Facebook doesn't delete anything. Either one is just a statement that you will no longer use Facebook. Anything that hurts their MAU numbers is an effective protest. Just look at their stock price in the last month.
  - 908087 8y ago
    Under GDPR, Facebook will be facing some serious trouble if they try to continue the not-really-deletion deletion thing, so at least there's some hope for those who reside in Europe on this front. That said, even for those who are in countries like the US, deactivation and ceasing "engagement" with Facebook is still at least one step better than continuing to actively feed them data.
    - mnsc 8y ago
      This is the reason I haven't deleted my FB yet, I'm going to send so many letters this June! And then I'm going to be joyously forgotten for real! And then I'm going to send more letters to see how forgotten I truly am! GDPR = Get Damn Priers Rekt
m-p-3 8y ago
Most likely the second, because when the media jump on their next topic the average user will switch back to apathy.
908087 8y ago
When Trump got elected, I was hopeful that it would result in the many people who were asleep at the wheel on surveillance-related issues (among other matters that self-described democrats were willing to ignore as long as "their guy" was in office) during the Obama presidency finally waking up. Hopefully it sticks, but I'm giving it maybe a 25% chance of doing so, ironically due to the ADD-like attention span social media has cultivated across society.
coldacid 8y ago
Hopefully the former, but given how most "normal" people tend to respond to these things, most likely the latter.
rm_-rf_slash 8y ago
Was Edward Snowden the catalyst for change away from tolerating government dragnets? No, not enough to insist on “liberty [from dragnets] or death”, but it sure made a lot of people more aware about the spying powers of major govnerments on the devices people use every day. The toothpaste of paranoia cannot go back inside the tube of ignorance. This is that same moment for the private sector. Sadly, as another poster mentioned, people will scathe Facebook and go to Instagram or WhatsApp instead, changing nothing.
- bogomipz 8y ago
  >"Was Edward Snowden the catalyst for change away from tolerating government dragnets?" Wait when were government dragnets ever tolerated? We are talking about things that undertaken in absolute secrecy. Was there legislative change taken in response? No or certainly nominally. Was there a change in the publics attitudes? Yes, absolutely. See: https://www.recode.net/2015/3/16/11560290/snowden-leaks-have-changed-how-americans-see-their-privacy https://www.recode.net/2015/3/16/11560290/snowden-leaks-have... Change isn't always instant and immediate.
bogomipz 8y ago
I think its too early to tell. I do think however that change will happen when or if people decide FB is not a company they want to work for. That despite a CEO who wears t shirts, the free gourmet meals and fro yo its just "megacorp" with questionable practices.
Shivetya 8y ago
I am not sure we have to wait that long, the masses may have never actually cared. We live in a world where many just shrug and accept what happens because they believe its the only possible outcomes. on sites like HN and even reddit are but a bubble

netzone 8y ago

I thought this was commonly known?

ecocentrik 8y ago
He's attempting to speak to a wider audience, remind those that know but haven't heard it in a while and attempting to trigger new realizations of the absurdity of promises to protect privacy by organizations who's primary revenue source is the exploitation of privacy.
SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
It's commonly parroted on HN.

deferment 8y ago

Wozniak struggles to remain relevant.

AndrewStephens 8y ago

The problem is that users see Facebook in a different way than Facebook sees itself. Users see a fun website where they can post pictures of their dog. Facebook sees ways to get companies to pay for access to those users. That disconnect is at the heart of all the issues around Facebook. Looks like it is time for my 2-monthly repost of The Seven Realities of Social Networking. https://sheep.horse/2013/10/the_seven_realities_of_social_networking.html https://sheep.horse/2013/10/the_seven_realities_of_social_ne...

TheCapeGreek 8y ago
Good summary of the realities. Also the drawing is 10/10.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
394852034 8y ago
It's kind of a typical abusive relationship where one party sees not only the relationship fundamentally with a different light, but one party is quite duplicitous and nefarious and abusive and manipulative in their interactions with intent of deception and keeping a comfortable and useful situation going for them while they prey on their usually naive and gullible and rather delusional victim. It's the typical naive girl or boy dating a cheating, lying, player ... only a global, systemic, humanity impacting level never before witnessed or experienced by humanity. On a side note; Apple has the opportunity to not only massively grow themselves, but also totally crush Facebook and Twitter if they were to build a product that centers control and power over information and data and content as much as possible with the users that generate it. Facebook, Twitter, and Google are revealing themselves as not just being a cute little mole, but full blown metastasized melanoma that must be treated immediately or it will invariably kill freedom and liberty on a scale and level that has also never been witnessed by humanity; a totalitarianism that will be virtually total in its surveillance and control and domination with zero ability for anyone to even object. The era of Techtalitarians is upon us.
throwmenow_0140 8y ago
This sums up my opinion about Facebook and how to properly use it without having to resort to Nietzsche or Freud. Neat link, thanks.

AnnoyingSwede 8y ago

Wozniak used to be ahead of time, but i can only agree that this is common knowledge now.. Soon we will see "Water makes you wet - S. Wozniak"

goalieca 8y ago
I doubt this is common knowledge. I have many friends who are not in the technology field and they have no idea. Many of them are informed and educated professionals but they cannot know about every issue until it makes the news. Woz is making the 6pm news with these quotes.

StefanFrost 8y ago

How has this not been obvious from the start? I can't be the only one that knew this from the start. Nothing is free.

justadudeama 8y ago

I realize this, but I still have a hard time not using Google services. I know they are analyzing my data for ads, but it in incredibly convenient for me to be on the exact same platform, from email with gmail and file storage with google drive and browser with chrome and android on my phone, they just seem to get me with one thing at a time in the name of standardization. What steps can be made to prevent this?

icebraining 8y ago
Prevent what? Making convenient things?
- justadudeama 8y ago
  Having all of my data in Google Servers.
  - nicky0 8y ago
    Step one: Put it somewhere else.
394852034 8y ago
You know what's also convenient, letting google decide every aspect of our lives for us and telling us what to think. It's bizarre to anyone born before maybe 1985 , to see what a heinous evil emerging, a kind of authoritarian marxist tech communism that is well on its way to becoming a totalitarian regime once it has convinced everyone to give up control over their lives out of "convenience" and for "safety" and "security". Who knew that the kiddos would read 1984 and think it was a manual? For anyone who wants to look into the background of this real military psychological war that has been waged upon the western world for decades now, but especially in the last 10, do yourself a favor and listen to what the defected KGB officer Yuri Bezmenov warned the west and in particular the USA and Americans about back in... fittingly... 1984. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3qkf3bajd4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3qkf3bajd4 There are all sorts of things the media and higher "education" keep from the peasantry.
8y ago

throwmenow_0140 8y ago

tl;dr - I explain in detail why you should use Facebook for your advantage instead of complaining about their lack of decency. Anybody who denies Facebook doesn't recognize its true value for ones personal brand. It's not about your data - you shouldn't do anything remotely personal on this platform, ever. It's all about personal marketing. And for this purpose, it is the perfect tool. You can decide how people perceive you and gain social power and influence other people. If you refuse to take this chance because they sell your data, you're wasting a big opportunity. It's known for years that they don't care about privacy, and neither should you when you use those platforms. Use encrypted and decentralized communication channels if you want to communicate without being spied on. But Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and Snapchat can be used to build powerful social influence. And this can be used to gain further power - I'm not a fan of Nietzsches "Will to power" bullshit, but I'm interested in power regardless to build my personal empire (maybe based on deep insecurity and narcissim, whatever rests under the consciousness). For all those Facebook haters: Your distaste for this platform stems from the fact that they don't value privacy and that people in general don't really care. But don't miss this opportunity just for the matter of doing "the right thing". If you're an existential nihilist like me, you recognize that all those opinions don't really matter (including yours) and are often used to find value in oneself like many vegetarians, no-facebookers, minimalists, etc. use it (I'm a vegetarian - it can be used to feel good about oneself if you prefer to give your narcisstic side those impulses. I try to avoid doing it for those reasons to overcome myself). Sigmund Freud called this the "Narcissim of small differences", don't get fooled by your unconscious side - even if you think that it's rational to avoid Facebook. Think in terms of power and how you gonna get it. I know, this certainly sounds like a sociopath, but you can do good things with this power. "Humans of New York" is a Facebook page that shows us how we can use this power for good. Don't hate the game. It's man-made and without any purpose like our whole existence. Learn to play it if you want to master life in this society. Otherwise you just support your ego - exactly like the people who are on Facebook. You're not smarter than them. Nobody here is including me. I just hope that people learn to value the opportunity and do a rational risk-assessment instead of using emotions of rejection because a company is selling user information. I don't support that Facebook does that, but we can still use their platform to our advantage while hiding our true personality (and therefore enforce our privacy). edit: Maybe most people who are on Facebook see it like this - although I have the notion that most people don't reflect on this level about their Facebook and social media usage.

GreeniFi 8y ago

Welcome to Restaurant Facebook. If you’re not at the table, you’re on the menu.

dumbfounder 8y ago

So Apple products are the high road here? Products that lock me in and force me to shell out money every few years to upgrade, force my friends/family to use the same platform (iphoto), creates gardens with massive walls (doesn't let Siri talk to apps, has a totalitarian regime of an app store), and more, or use the completely free Facebook where "I am the product"? Most people don't care and even I am not convinced being the product is necessarily a bad thing.

Waterluvian 8y ago
Every few years? Don't Apple products have unusually long lifespans and support durations?
- gaius 8y ago
  Still using my 2008 MacBook Pro, it gets security updates but won’t run latest OSX.
- dumbfounder 8y ago
  How easy is it to change a battery in your phone? Upgrade the memory? What about them slowing down the phone when the battery degrades, and only just recently to be called out for that?
  - slouch 8y ago
    Oh c'mon. The alternative to them slowing it down is an unexpected reboot. Is that what you want? Crashes?
    - dumbfounder 8y ago
      I want them to be transparent about such issues and then let me buy a new battery at the apple store when it gets to that point. They don't want to make this happen, they want me to buy a new phone.

Pigo 8y ago

I wonder if they'll be a sequel to The Social Network now.

Zhyl 8y ago
'The Circle' doesn't do a bad job of filling that niche.

oflannabhra 8y ago

I think the big takeaway here is not that Woz is saying this, but that USA Today is carrying a story about leaving Facebook. I'd almost guarantee that USA Today's readership has never been presented with the concepts regarding user data that we, here, are all very familiar with.

commenter1 8y ago

Good for him, but why should I care what he does?

Shikadi 8y ago
Ask yourself that question. If you find the answer is you shouldn't care, then don't click the link.

jonbarker 8y ago

The most troubling defense from FB I've heard is that product companies that charge for products and don't have ad supported models are inducing "Stockholm Syndrome" in those who defend that approach vs the free ad supported model. To me it seems that that analogy is stronger for those who don't pay for free products, as they are arguably more locked in than those who can 'vote with their wallets' and stop buying.

josefresco 8y ago

* Proceeds to check in via Foursquare

vthallam 8y ago
Swarm

itakedrugs 8y ago

he undeleted it yesterday, about 18 hours ago, for a while