12 ms·

Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

173 points by torus 10y ago

exelius 10y ago
From personal experience in my youth, I can definitely say that psychedelics (mushrooms in particular) can help you think in different ways that make your problems seem trivial and imminently solvable. Those changed patterns of thought seem like a revelation at the time -- like the clouds opened and an answer came down from the sky. So I'm not at all surprised with this. That said, this study had only 12 participants with no control group -- so it's hard to draw any meaningful conclusions. But as a canary study, it says that there might be something here, so further, more rigorous studies are warranted.
- zimbu668 10y ago
  Roland Griffiths at John's Hopkins is trying to do proper research on psilocybin, i.e. with control groups. Although it's kind of hard since the effects of psilocybin are rather noticeable. http://www.tedmed.com/speakers/show?id=526372 http://www.tedmed.com/speakers/show?id=526372 Just in case anyone here hasn't already seen this: https://xkcd.com/1462/ https://xkcd.com/1462/
  - exelius 10y ago
    Yeah, it looks like the study linked in the original article didn't do the measurement on the subjects while they were under the influence, but rather some time after the fact. In my experience, psilocybin can have a lasting psychological effect long after the physiological effects wear off.
  - krylon 10y ago
    I'm thinking more along the lines of this one: https://xkcd.com/790/ https://xkcd.com/790/
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    Not every medical procedure can or has to undergo double blind testing with control groups. Pretty much any treatment that has very aggressive effects is usually done without it. Even treatments that can be tested using a control group are quite often tested without it if you can isolate your metrics well enough. But technically you can still use a control group for psychoactive drugs because in every trial the first rule is not to give the test subjects any information about possible effects or side effects in order not introduce bias, you also quite often isolate the subjects from each other completely. I'm also not sure if the dose that is given in this case is even high enough to induce hallucinations in the first place.
    - yaur 10y ago
      > possible effects or side effects in order not introduce bias giving people psychedelics without telling them seems pretty irresponsible to me even in a controlled setting.
      - a3n 10y ago
        I would guess that not telling someone could also affect the outcome. You might have a different experience from the treatment if you're wondering and waiting.
  - tonyarkles 10y ago
    I forget which interview I was listening to about doing LSD research but I remember the gist of the quote: "We tried doing double-blind studies, but 15 minutes into the experiment we realized it was pointless. The people who were given LSD... they knew they'd been given the real stuff, the scientists knew very obviously who'd been given the real stuff... There's no way to give someone LSD and not have everyone in the room know what's going on."
    - mancerayder 10y ago
      That's a very interesting problem. I wonder if one solution to the 'control group' is for the control to be an alternative intoxicant (i.e. not another psychedelic).
  - oxryly1 10y ago
    Can't they just lower the dosage drastically?
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - some1else 10y ago
      You mean like micro-dosing and homeopathy? And see if they're not depressed for the next 15 seconds?
  - tim333 10y ago
    You could say you were testing drugs for depression and give one group psilocybin and the other something like prozac rather than sugar pills.
  - stevedekorte 10y ago
    Microdosing may remove the "rather noticeable" side effects while producing a similar reduction of anxiety/depression.
- cassieramen 10y ago
  This seems to be the important quote on the findings: “We can give psilocybin to depressed patients, they can tolerate it, and it is safe. This gives us an initial impression of the effectiveness of the treatment.” All the legal hurdles they had to pass to make this happen are quite impressive. Hopefully they've eeked open that door a bit for further study.
- harry8 10y ago
  Here's a thing I don't understand - no control group. Surely we've been trying to treat people with severe, long term depression by other means and not had success. This surely wasn't the first treatment that these people tried in trying to treat their long-term misery. How are both of those things taken together not as good as a control group that allows you to draw meaningful conclusions. It really sounds to me (although it would be better to see the quantification in the source docs) that this is a strong enough result to rule out noise. If your results are strong enough, you don't need a control. If all 12 participants died while undertaking the trial would we say that it needs to be re-run with a control to be meaningful? The results look strong. Go for pre-registered replication right away. Sod the control group. Everyone with severe long term depression outside the study is already suffering enough to be the control.
  - exelius 10y ago
    That's why it's a canary study. Sure, it looks good, which means it's worth spending the money on a larger study. And yeah, there are lots of people with severe long-term depression, so find some of them, measure their mood over the same time period, and make absolutely sure that the effects you're ascribing to the substance you're testing aren't caused by something else. You always need a control group because you can't control for every externality over the exact time period the study was conducted. Maybe the weather was especially nice for those 3 months and the control group feels happier as well? We need a way to quantify the results and be able to answer those questions. Always be careful with the conclusions you draw from studies without control groups. Small studies without control groups are very cheap to run, so you can run the same study 15 times and only report on it when you get the results you're looking for. Not saying that's what happened here, but we have to apply the same standards of proof to all drug studies or else they don't mean anything. The purpose of this study was likely not to prove "hallucinogens can cure depression" but rather "mushrooms are potentially effective and don't appear to have any glaring safety issues".
Torgo 10y ago
It worked for me in my 20's, but I think if I tried it again in my late 30's, it might make things worse. Mushrooms don't let you hide problems from yourself.
- theseatoms 10y ago
  Then how exactly did it work for you in your 20s? Did it help you realize that you didn't have problems?
  - arca_vorago 10y ago
    They were probably easier problems at a younger age...
    - soylentcola 10y ago
      I've had a similar attitude when offered the chance to do psychedelics again (now late 30's, last done early/mid 20's). My unscientific hypothesis, at least in my case, is that much of the anxiety at the idea comes from: - Everything was more confusing and uncertain back then so it was less of a stretch. With age, I've spent time developing new pathways, habits, and ways of thinking/dealing that I don't take their upheaval lightly. As a counterpoint, I'd imagine that this is still why they can be useful as well as intimidating. The more set in our ways we get, the less flexible you are during future periods of stress. - Association of psychedelics with a less certain and more anxious period in my life. I wasn't terribly depressed or anything but looking back...man, those years can be rough and stressful. I think on some level I can only guess at, the desire to seek new thought patterns and perspectives feels both less appealing and less necessary. Additionally, it carries feelings and associations with the upending of a hard-won equilibrium (or at least relative stability). Not something I take lightly. Now, that said, I'm pretty sure a mild trip would be enjoyable and I'd probably be fine doing it if the time/place was right. One thing I still stick by: the intense psychedelic journey clearly holds power and appeal for some, but there's really nothing wrong with a mild trip. I never understood friends who would eat a strip of blotter or a bag of shrooms each. Sure, you get "totally fucked up, dude" but I personally enjoyed feeling like everything just felt a bit novel and looked a bit off rather than not being able to tell where I was at a given time.
Alex3917 10y ago
Does anyone know what species is in the picture? Someone on the Flickr page asks if they're Cyanescens. My guess would be Allenii just based on the fact that they were found in San Bruno, but I don't have a good species concept for either.
jarmitage 10y ago
This is more excellent work by ICL and the Beckley Foundation. Science is rapidly changing in this area. Check out their publications list from this year alone, a few world firsts in there: http://beckleyfoundation.org/resources/science-publications/ http://beckleyfoundation.org/resources/science-publications/
humbleMouse 10y ago
When I am finishing a mushroom experience I usually have overwhelming feelings of love and am excited to start the next day. My brain is racing with all the possibilities of life and ways I can make things better for myself. People should be coached in how to have a good mushroom experience and what to expect. Nature + fresh fruit + good music + comfy place to sleep has always been a winning combination for me.
- fourstar 10y ago
  Fresh fruit? How are you hungry let alone craving fruit on shrooms?
  - throwawayornot 10y ago
    vitamins
  - humbleMouse 10y ago
    For some reason eating fruit while on mushrooms is very satisfying to me. It makes me think about how the earth provides delicious fleshy fruit that literally grows on trees, and all of the other trippy thoughts that come with conceptualizing what a piece of fruit actually is. Also, increased vitamin C.
  - Ftuuky 10y ago
    Eating oranges while tripping on shrooms was a very intense experience to me. I agree with OP's statement, a comfy place with calm music and fresh fruit is all you need.
    - eip 10y ago
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hqgYYASenc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hqgYYASenc
- matthewvincent 10y ago
  This is great advice, all I would add is a close friend or two to share the experience with.
nxzero 10y ago
Says more about how poorly the brain is understood than anything else. Also, very possible that the measures that were take to keep people "safe" were a factor. Anyone know if there was a control group given the same treatment (double blind) - but with a placebo? __________ EDIT: Direct link to the related research paper: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: a feasibility study http://www.thelancet.com/pb/assets/raw/Lancet/pdfs/S2215036616300657.pdf http://www.thelancet.com/pb/assets/raw/Lancet/pdfs/S22150366...
- hippich 10y ago
  I wonder what could be given as placebo tho. It is not like you do not notice you are tripping.
  - lawpoop 10y ago
    I think in Johns Hopkins studies they were using amphetamines, and also they recruited people who were hallucinogenic-naive.
    - DigitalJack 10y ago
      But then you'd have to do a study of amphetamines and depression. It's really tricky to come up with a sham effect in a placebo without destroying the integrity of the control group.
      - jjawssd 10y ago
        Can't you physically isolate the two groups somehow?
        DigitalJack 10y ago
        The problem with studying a drug using control groups and placebos is that for some drugs (such as marijuana, LSD, etc.) people will know that they must have gotten a placebo due to the lack of effect. Researchers will sometimes use a substitute to create some effect that a naive participant may believe to be the real thing, but it can be difficult to be convincing. This can damage the integrity of the control group because they would know they hadn't gotten the real thing (and thus possibly negating the placebo effect). People who know they got the real thing may see benefits that are actually the placebo effect, and if your control group isn't able to control for this effect, it lowers the quality of your study. There are also moral issues with tough studies such as last ditch experimental studies on stage IV cancers. Even in a double blind study, the research will know they are giving placebos to some of the participants, and thus have no chance of helping them.
pigpaws 10y ago
Legalize, standardize, tax, repeat. Why is it that difficult? People will do anything to keep their grip on (perceived) power - even if it means destroying someone's life. Gov't doesn't really want jobs, or tax revenue at the expense of their jobs. What would cops do if they weren't locking up kids for a joint?
- sickbeard 10y ago
  Are you saying people who smoke weed do it for life and death situations?
  - ceejayoz 10y ago
    Some chronic pain and cancer patients see dramatically improved quality of life with medical marijuana.
  - SwellJoe 10y ago
    I think prior comment is saying that police routinely ruin people's lives by locking them up over drug use.
- eloff 10y ago
  Not everything is a giant conspiracy theory. If society changed to the point where drugs didn't have such a stigma against them, then the politicians would legalize them. They excel at doing things that are popular - be it good or bad things. Case in point Canada with their goal of legalizing marijuana. It's harder to do that in the US because you have more conservative people who see drugs as morally repugnant. My prediction is blue states will continue legalizing and red states will be the last holdout.
  - chestervonwinch 10y ago
    On the other hand, much of the stigma comes from the illegality.
    - fnordsensei 10y ago
sageabilly 10y ago
It's great to see the advances in research that are being done around Psilocybin, MDMA, and Ketamine as the results that are coming out look incredibly promising. That being said, godDAMN how in the hell is anyone ever going to take studies like this seriously when they're being reported as "Magic Mushrooms" in Scientific American of all places? This isn't raver kiddies eating dried who-knows-what out of ziplock bags at raves, this is a controlled dosing of psilocybin in a medical setting for treatment of a serious illness. The stigma around researching these drugs is never going to go away unless the language itself changes.
- arxpoetica 10y ago
  A return to alchemy...
  - nxzero 10y ago
    A return to science...
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
- fluxquanta 10y ago
  Whenever pot-culture words come up in "reporting" about medical treatments I immediately tune out. That's not to say there aren't any potential health benefits but "toking herb" (or whatever) isn't the best way to present them to people who still demonize it.
  - civilian 10y ago
    I know there's been an effort to use the word "Cannabis" as a way to sound legitimate, instead of pot/weed/marijuana. Do you react better to 'cannabis'?
    - protomyth 10y ago
sev 10y ago
> It took 32 months between having the grant awarded and dosing the first patient, says Nutt. By comparison, it took six months “to get through the machinations” for his team’s previous studies using the equally illegal drugs LSD and MDMA, he says. I thought we were making progress...
mickgiles 10y ago
They needed a study to show that magic mushrooms make you happy? That is why they are called "magic" mushrooms
joesmo 10y ago
The irony of psilocybin classification as a Schedule 1 drug is that it's not even addictive. But then again, the US government and America in general has never let facts get in the way of their goals to ruin people's lives. People have known this is an effective treatment for depression for many years. How many lives have been ruined simply because of its being illicit and unavailable to treat patients who needed it? When I think about it that way, I can't help but hope these murderers will one day get justice, but I know they won't.
jtwebman 10y ago
12 people isn't a scientific study! Where is the control group? I think maybe we need a few more studies before people go out and start eating magic mushrooms to not be depressed.
- soundwave106 10y ago
  I'm a bit skeptical of just one small study too. From what I am aware, there have been plenty of other 5-HT2A agonists that are not the "classic" psychedelics out there in the labs, and I rarely see them thought of as anti-depressants in Wiki pages etc. (5HT2A agonists being thought of as other treatments? Yes, treatment of migraines and glaucoma have been mentioned in some of the articles -- one example here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AL-34662 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AL-34662 -- but a lot of things seem a long way off even there.) But there's precedent, so who knows. Remember a few years back there was several articles about ketamine being discovered to also helping major depressive disorder? These articles still appear in fact: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/a-one-time-party-drug-is-helping-people-with-deep-depression/2016/02/01/d3e73862-b490-11e5-a76a-0b5145e8679a_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/a-one... http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/03/what-its-like-to-treat-severe-depression-with-a-hallucinogenic-drug.html http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/03/what-its-like-to-treat-... From what I am aware, this revelation was a big deal at a deeper level, in that it showed a new pathway to relieving depression -- glutamate. Previously I think almost all anti-depression drugs was based around serotonin. Ketamine on the other hand is an NMDA antagnoist (the NMDA receptor being one of the main binding sites of glutamate) so was completely different than SSRIs. Hallucinations are honestly considered a "bad side effect" for a clinical anti-depressant, so there has been a fair bit of work in developing drugs that modulate the NMDA receptor / glutamate in a way that relieves major depressive disorder without the psychedelic effects. (http://www.medpagetoday.com/psychiatry/depression/54448 http://www.medpagetoday.com/psychiatry/depression/54448) I know that one of them, Rapastinel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapastinel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapastinel Has seemed to move rather quickly through the FDA clinical trials, currently phase 3 / FDA fast track. I suppose you could attempt to gobble ketamine, too, to try to self-medicate your way out of depression. But there are risks with that approach. (Short of waiting for the big pharmaceutical approach, there are "ketamine clinics" which, while definitely "off label" / experimental, are at least a more controlled way of attempting this treatment.)
trhway 10y ago
i think we'll be looking back at our time with amusement to say the least - these people, like millions others, were having serious problems for decades (17.8 years avg in the article) while known remedies like cannabis, mushrooms and other stuff is just prohibited out of the irrational fear and powergrab desire driving the war on drugs.
trub 10y ago
not surprised
trub 10y ago
I'm shocked!
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
apo 10y ago
From the study: > A logical next step would be to carry out a placebo controlled randomised trial in which the level of therapist contact is consistent between conditions. http://www.thelancet.com/pb/assets/raw/Lancet/pdfs/S2215036616300657.pdf http://www.thelancet.com/pb/assets/raw/Lancet/pdfs/S22150366... Depression studies are subject to well-known, powerful placebo effects, rendering this study's conclusions next to useless: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/are-antidepressants-just-placebos-with-side-effects/ http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/are-antidepr...
- cryptoz 10y ago
  > next to useless No study or scientific curiosity is "next to useless". You are being intentionally antagonistic and there's no need for that. All research has to start somewhere, and this study is a significant start to this field. In no way is it or its conclusions "next to useless".
  - patrickmclaren 10y ago
    Agreed. One might say to take the conclusion with a grain of salt, but "next to useless" is being overly dismissive.
    - cpncrunch 10y ago
      No, it is simply a statement of fact. Given that all treatments for depression produce a powerful placebo effect, any non-placebo-controlled trial tells you absolutely nothing about the effectiveness of the treatment. It's true that it does tell you if the treatment is safe, but I think it's fair to say that that information is "next to useless", as there are an almost infinite number of potential treatments. The only way to know if any of them are effective is to do a placebo-controlled trial. Still, I think it is a plausible treatment, so hopefully there will be some better trials.
  - apo 10y ago
    Maybe the brush was a bit broad. However, studies interpreted more broadly than warranted can lead the unwary down deep, expensive, counterproductive dead ends. This happens all the time as the popular media get ahold stories, especially those relating to drug treatments and nutrition. Consider the headline: "Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial." That conclusion is out of line with the way in which the experiment was conducted, especially given the high tendency for large placebo effects in such studies. Without proper controls, the conclusion that magic mushrooms lift severe depression is next to useless.
kolapuriya 10y ago
I really do believe some of the more negative stereotypes and stigma is beginning to lift surrounding the therapeutic use of entheogens. Like you stated time and accurate information with disciplined research hopefully leads to change. I think we have all seen that occur with marijuana for both medical and recreational use. I am very optimistic about the future of psychedelic use for those that need it and those that desire it.
sageikosa 10y ago
Going through that whole process to run the trial could easily lead to depression.
niccaluim 10y ago
Twelve people. No control group. And as a person who has suffered lifelong depression, and up until 2.5 years ago had serious substance problems: duh, drugs change the way you feel. I'm not saying there's nothing worth exploring here. My personal intuition is that psychedelics could be a huge help in some cases, especially for treatment-resistant depression. But this "study" isn't worth squat.
stuxnet79 10y ago
Is there any literature in their efficacy in treating anxiety disorders? As somebody who's suffered from severe anxiety since my mid-teens and had it cleared up more or less from medication I'm extremely interested in seeing how Psilocybin would affect the disorder. I would be quite willing to try it out but I'm very hesitant because I suspect my underlying anxiety would undermine the experience and possibly leave me in a worse off state than before.
- instakill 10y ago
  Study on cancer patients showed positive results. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20819978 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20819978
- fapjacks 10y ago
  Hey, so... I've got pretty severe PTSD from my experiences in combat. Loads of anxiety. I have to tell you since you made this point, that mushrooms specifically have helped me so tremendously to manage the anxiety. The way I describe it to other veterans (to encourage its use among people suffering from these disorders) is that mushrooms help ground me by providing a safe, chill, unique experience that I can later use as a point of reference when my anxiety gets bad. Make sure you know what you are putting into your body, don't take too many, don't eat them in a strange environment (a quiet weekend night in your living room is a good place), and only do mushrooms with someone you know and trust (and who has experience with the experience). You will thank yourself for doing it. It will change your life for the better if you follow those simple guidelines.
- primitivesuave 10y ago
  Yes, psilocybin will help. An ex-girlfriend of mine had severe anxiety problems after being sexually abused, and one of our earliest memories together was taking 3 grams of Psilocybe Cubensis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybe_cubensis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybe_cubensis) during a hike to Half Dome in Yosemite. She underwent a transformative experience that day, not only overcoming her anxiety problems but also her fear of snakes (we saw several rattlesnakes at an uncomfortably close distance to us) and her fear of heights/fear of falling. While I wouldn't recommend taking psychedelics in a dangerous situation or during strenuous exercising, taking psychedelics in the right situation can be transformative to those with deeply-rooted mental issues.
ifnaut 10y ago
I owe my entire successful career in science and mathematics to repeated use of LSD in my late teens/early 20's. It woke my desire to seek answers to the underlying mechanics of the universe. Before that, I was just a high school drop-out with low self-esteem, no direction, and no positive role models.
- bashinator 10y ago
  I have read that LSD can induce your brain into learning states similar to that of a baby, where new connections (and disconnections?) are able to be formed effortlessly. Given your experience, I wish there were more research being done. It could be another tool to help people overcome trauma or personality disorders.
  - jjawssd 10y ago
    This is definitely what it feels like at least. A sense of raw novelty is evoked with our lack of understanding of the world around us becomes focused front and center. Everything is beautiful in its own right. And the fractals in all of existence thoughts and visions run infinitely deep but we can almost grasp them.
  - atom-morgan 10y ago
    Yes, this is exactly how I'd describe it. I remember watching The Hobbit and being blown away. I felt like a kid all over again.
primitivesuave 10y ago
For those seeking to break down the barriers of the mind, psilocybin and mescaline are the most intelligent options. SWIM (Someone Who Isn't Me) grew mushrooms and peyote cactus to enable revelations in the minds of consenting adults, and every single person who ingested these naturally-occurring organic substances thanked SWIM for a life-changing experience. That said, there are obvious risks to glorifying psychedelic use, especially when available psychedelics are usually in the form of LSD. While these synthetic compounds can yield the same results as their organic counterparts, there is no way to verify the amount of LSD in a dose. Overdosing on LSD can trigger schizophrenia and several other mental problems in those who are prone to it. This is why SWIM recommends organic psychedelic compounds that can be clearly measured into an appropriate dosage for the individual's size and past psychedelic experience. There is also an overwhelming trend amongst unscrupulous suppliers to market doses of DOC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,5-Dimethoxy-4-chloroamphetam... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,5-Dimethoxy-4-chloroamphetam...) as LSD. While the observed effect of the two are similar, DOC can be extremely dangerous to those with hypertension and high blood pressure. DOC is also an amphetamine with greater risk of physical addiction. SWIM also wants to point out that SWIM engaged in countless adventures with varying levels of psilocybin and mescaline dosages, and arrived at the conclusion that psychedelic substances are not necessary for seeing the beauty in life or the purpose that one may have in this world. SWIM's most transformative revelations came about while completely sober at a Taoist monastery of the Wudang mountains in China. It is SWIM's opinion that all can know beauty as beauty only because there is ugliness (Tao Te Ching, chapter 2), and now urges people to pursue safe and well-known techniques (meditation, yoga, tai chi, qi gong) for improving one's state of mind.
- tribby 10y ago
  >there is no way to verify the amount of LSD in a dose Nor psilocybin in a mushroom...
  - primitivesuave 10y ago
    The variance in potency is negligible, especially when compared to the variance in potency of LSD doses. It is generally known amongst those taking mushrooms that 2 - 3 grams is within most people's comfort level. The real variance comes from how dry the mushrooms are - mushrooms that are more moist will be less potent. This is why a responsible mushroom grower will thoroughly dry their mushrooms before consuming them.
peterwwillis 10y ago
I like how marijuana and psilocybin have no negative side effects and it's taken hundreds of years to be taken seriously as clinical treatments. Meanwhile, according to the FDA, there were "56,000 emergency room visits, 26,000 hospitalizations, and 458 deaths per year related to acetaminophen-associated overdoses during the 1990s. unintentional acetaminophen overdose accounted for nearly 25 percent of the emergency department visits, 10 percent of the hospitalizations, and 25 percent of the deaths [per year]." [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracetamol#Liver_damage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracetamol#Liver_damage
pasbesoin 10y ago
More anecdote leaning towards truth that my friends were self-medicating and not simply "doing something bad." I am now, well into middle age, firmly in the camp that I missed out, due to fear, propaganda, and mis-information. And that my life might have been much better if I had not bought so heavily into that message and instead had "experimented". Trust your observations; not blind authority. Anyway... I'm currently trying to overcome a combination of symptoms, thoughts, and feelings, stemming from years of abuse, PTSD, and eventually significant knock-on physical health effects. In the past, I've tried SSRI's, NSRI's, Wellbutrin. Immediate, horrible reactions to each. The only thing that helped was a small dose of Adderall -- much lower than standard. And St. John's Wort. Almost impossible in the U.S. to find a doctor who will agree to simultaneous use of both -- unlike in Europe, so I understand. And the doctor I found was a jerk who almost cost me my chance to purchase next year's health insurance, due to his lack of response on paperwork. So, no more Adderall. I'm ready to try magic mushrooms. Maybe a low, pure dose of ketamin. Or perhaps MDMA. Under supervision -- medical or simply experienced and well-intentioned. But, there is no avenue for this. And big pharma and the "war on drugs" will do their best to keep it locked down. I simply have no trust left in the Establishment, in the U.S., with respect to medical practice. Or, very select trust, in individual practitioners. Who are often caught in a system that severely hampers their ability to actually practice effective medicine and treatment.
- darreld 10y ago
  I agree with you completely. When I was young I smoked a lot of weed but was afraid of LSD and mushrooms. Now that I'm nearing 60 I feel that I definitely missed out. Since dealing with pretty bad anxiety from, I assume, extreme stress at work for decades, I'm ready to try mushrooms and, in the right setting, LSD. My problem is availability.
  - pasbesoin 10y ago
    Except for one minor contact high at a party, I never even experienced weed. I have a friend who had strikingly similar experiences as a child. She quit school for a while and got high daily -- mostly weed, as I understand it. About the age of 21 or 22, she got herself back into school and now has a very successful professional career. Drugs may indeed destroy some people. But, the messaging is far too simple -- and simplistic. And, those people often are not helped. They are simply castigated and ostracized. I don't mean, at all, to make light of such circumstances. And, I have currently been helping someone -- help to the tune of dozens of hours per week and hundreds of miles driven, and hundreds of dollars -- who came darned close to being lost, herself. I'd still trade my life for hers. She's lived hers -- mistakes and all.
notadoc 10y ago
On a similar note, there are many studies about ketamine administration (the anesthetic) having positive impacts on depression and chronic pain. There are ongoing clinical trials, it has been widely covered in media lately, and many major US cities have doctors who run ketamine clinics. https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00088699 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00088699 http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/03/what-its-like-to-treat-severe-depression-with-a-hallucinogenic-drug.html http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/03/what-its-like-to-treat-... http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/09/28/443203592/club-drug-ketamine-gains-traction-as-a-treatment-for-depression http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/09/28/44320359... Is it really surprising to anyone that mind altering chemicals could alter mental states? A silly question, obviously.
deleted 10y ago
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alva 10y ago
Lots of people with positive experiences with psilocybin in this thread. I have also had many incredible experiences and advocate its use, with conditions. But. And this is a very important thing to know before anyone reading decides to try it for the first time. Psilocybin experiences can be truly traumatic. If you have existing mental health issues, please be very, very careful before you decide to take it. Do all the research you can. I have one friend who went completely over the edge, reached the point of no return. It triggered a predisposition to a horrible mental illness. It has destroyed his life and his familys. For a small number of people, this can happen. If you think you might be vulnerable to this but still want to go ahead, please make sure you are responsibly and get an experienced sitter and a safe, familiar setting.
- fucking_tragedy 10y ago
  > I have one friend who went completely over the edge, reached the point of no return. It triggered a predisposition to a horrible mental illness. It has destroyed his life and his family. Have any details you're comfortable sharing? Particularly the mental illness, what happened when they were triggered and how often they dosed?
  - alva 10y ago
    Sure. They had an incredibly bad time with the trip, far worse than what you usually associate with a bad trip. Violence, screaming, paranoia, gibberish. All stuff (maybe apart from the violence) that can happen on a bad one, but this was extreme. Setting was familiar and safe, no external stresses during the period. This was his first time with mushrooms, although regular cannabis smoker (which also might have caused an issue). Regular dose. The next few days he was still recovering, but thoughts still very scattered and incoherent. Unfortunately this didn't taper off. I had not seen him for a few weeks until his family were in contact. The behaviour had become drastically worse, violence and paranoia. Eventually he was diagnosed with schizophrenia. From what I have read, with a certain kind of predisposition it would have probably manifested itself later in his life if he was unlucky. I don't want to put people off Psilocybin as it can be an incredible thing. Just be damn careful and do your research.

173 points by torus 10y ago

From personal experience in my youth, I can definitely say that psychedelics (mushrooms in particular) can help you think in different ways that make your problems seem trivial and imminently solvable. Those changed patterns of thought seem like a revelation at the time -- like the clouds opened and an answer came down from the sky. So I'm not at all surprised with this. That said, this study had only 12 participants with no control group -- so it's hard to draw any meaningful conclusions. But as a canary study, it says that there might be something here, so further, more rigorous studies are warranted.

zimbu668 10y ago
Roland Griffiths at John's Hopkins is trying to do proper research on psilocybin, i.e. with control groups. Although it's kind of hard since the effects of psilocybin are rather noticeable. http://www.tedmed.com/speakers/show?id=526372 http://www.tedmed.com/speakers/show?id=526372 Just in case anyone here hasn't already seen this: https://xkcd.com/1462/ https://xkcd.com/1462/
- exelius 10y ago
  Yeah, it looks like the study linked in the original article didn't do the measurement on the subjects while they were under the influence, but rather some time after the fact. In my experience, psilocybin can have a lasting psychological effect long after the physiological effects wear off.
- krylon 10y ago
  I'm thinking more along the lines of this one: https://xkcd.com/790/ https://xkcd.com/790/
- dogma1138 10y ago
  Not every medical procedure can or has to undergo double blind testing with control groups. Pretty much any treatment that has very aggressive effects is usually done without it. Even treatments that can be tested using a control group are quite often tested without it if you can isolate your metrics well enough. But technically you can still use a control group for psychoactive drugs because in every trial the first rule is not to give the test subjects any information about possible effects or side effects in order not introduce bias, you also quite often isolate the subjects from each other completely. I'm also not sure if the dose that is given in this case is even high enough to induce hallucinations in the first place.
  - yaur 10y ago
    > possible effects or side effects in order not introduce bias giving people psychedelics without telling them seems pretty irresponsible to me even in a controlled setting.
    - a3n 10y ago
      I would guess that not telling someone could also affect the outcome. You might have a different experience from the treatment if you're wondering and waiting.
- tonyarkles 10y ago
  I forget which interview I was listening to about doing LSD research but I remember the gist of the quote: "We tried doing double-blind studies, but 15 minutes into the experiment we realized it was pointless. The people who were given LSD... they knew they'd been given the real stuff, the scientists knew very obviously who'd been given the real stuff... There's no way to give someone LSD and not have everyone in the room know what's going on."
  - mancerayder 10y ago
    That's a very interesting problem. I wonder if one solution to the 'control group' is for the control to be an alternative intoxicant (i.e. not another psychedelic).
- oxryly1 10y ago
  Can't they just lower the dosage drastically?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - some1else 10y ago
    You mean like micro-dosing and homeopathy? And see if they're not depressed for the next 15 seconds?
- tim333 10y ago
  You could say you were testing drugs for depression and give one group psilocybin and the other something like prozac rather than sugar pills.
- stevedekorte 10y ago
  Microdosing may remove the "rather noticeable" side effects while producing a similar reduction of anxiety/depression.
cassieramen 10y ago
This seems to be the important quote on the findings: “We can give psilocybin to depressed patients, they can tolerate it, and it is safe. This gives us an initial impression of the effectiveness of the treatment.” All the legal hurdles they had to pass to make this happen are quite impressive. Hopefully they've eeked open that door a bit for further study.
harry8 10y ago
Here's a thing I don't understand - no control group. Surely we've been trying to treat people with severe, long term depression by other means and not had success. This surely wasn't the first treatment that these people tried in trying to treat their long-term misery. How are both of those things taken together not as good as a control group that allows you to draw meaningful conclusions. It really sounds to me (although it would be better to see the quantification in the source docs) that this is a strong enough result to rule out noise. If your results are strong enough, you don't need a control. If all 12 participants died while undertaking the trial would we say that it needs to be re-run with a control to be meaningful? The results look strong. Go for pre-registered replication right away. Sod the control group. Everyone with severe long term depression outside the study is already suffering enough to be the control.
- exelius 10y ago
  That's why it's a canary study. Sure, it looks good, which means it's worth spending the money on a larger study. And yeah, there are lots of people with severe long-term depression, so find some of them, measure their mood over the same time period, and make absolutely sure that the effects you're ascribing to the substance you're testing aren't caused by something else. You always need a control group because you can't control for every externality over the exact time period the study was conducted. Maybe the weather was especially nice for those 3 months and the control group feels happier as well? We need a way to quantify the results and be able to answer those questions. Always be careful with the conclusions you draw from studies without control groups. Small studies without control groups are very cheap to run, so you can run the same study 15 times and only report on it when you get the results you're looking for. Not saying that's what happened here, but we have to apply the same standards of proof to all drug studies or else they don't mean anything. The purpose of this study was likely not to prove "hallucinogens can cure depression" but rather "mushrooms are potentially effective and don't appear to have any glaring safety issues".

Torgo 10y ago

It worked for me in my 20's, but I think if I tried it again in my late 30's, it might make things worse. Mushrooms don't let you hide problems from yourself.

theseatoms 10y ago
Then how exactly did it work for you in your 20s? Did it help you realize that you didn't have problems?
- arca_vorago 10y ago
  They were probably easier problems at a younger age...
  - soylentcola 10y ago
    I've had a similar attitude when offered the chance to do psychedelics again (now late 30's, last done early/mid 20's). My unscientific hypothesis, at least in my case, is that much of the anxiety at the idea comes from: - Everything was more confusing and uncertain back then so it was less of a stretch. With age, I've spent time developing new pathways, habits, and ways of thinking/dealing that I don't take their upheaval lightly. As a counterpoint, I'd imagine that this is still why they can be useful as well as intimidating. The more set in our ways we get, the less flexible you are during future periods of stress. - Association of psychedelics with a less certain and more anxious period in my life. I wasn't terribly depressed or anything but looking back...man, those years can be rough and stressful. I think on some level I can only guess at, the desire to seek new thought patterns and perspectives feels both less appealing and less necessary. Additionally, it carries feelings and associations with the upending of a hard-won equilibrium (or at least relative stability). Not something I take lightly. Now, that said, I'm pretty sure a mild trip would be enjoyable and I'd probably be fine doing it if the time/place was right. One thing I still stick by: the intense psychedelic journey clearly holds power and appeal for some, but there's really nothing wrong with a mild trip. I never understood friends who would eat a strip of blotter or a bag of shrooms each. Sure, you get "totally fucked up, dude" but I personally enjoyed feeling like everything just felt a bit novel and looked a bit off rather than not being able to tell where I was at a given time.

Alex3917 10y ago

Does anyone know what species is in the picture? Someone on the Flickr page asks if they're Cyanescens. My guess would be Allenii just based on the fact that they were found in San Bruno, but I don't have a good species concept for either.

jarmitage 10y ago

This is more excellent work by ICL and the Beckley Foundation. Science is rapidly changing in this area. Check out their publications list from this year alone, a few world firsts in there: http://beckleyfoundation.org/resources/science-publications/ http://beckleyfoundation.org/resources/science-publications/

humbleMouse 10y ago

When I am finishing a mushroom experience I usually have overwhelming feelings of love and am excited to start the next day. My brain is racing with all the possibilities of life and ways I can make things better for myself. People should be coached in how to have a good mushroom experience and what to expect. Nature + fresh fruit + good music + comfy place to sleep has always been a winning combination for me.

fourstar 10y ago
Fresh fruit? How are you hungry let alone craving fruit on shrooms?
- throwawayornot 10y ago
  vitamins
- humbleMouse 10y ago
  For some reason eating fruit while on mushrooms is very satisfying to me. It makes me think about how the earth provides delicious fleshy fruit that literally grows on trees, and all of the other trippy thoughts that come with conceptualizing what a piece of fruit actually is. Also, increased vitamin C.
- Ftuuky 10y ago
  Eating oranges while tripping on shrooms was a very intense experience to me. I agree with OP's statement, a comfy place with calm music and fresh fruit is all you need.
  - eip 10y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hqgYYASenc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hqgYYASenc
matthewvincent 10y ago
This is great advice, all I would add is a close friend or two to share the experience with.

nxzero 10y ago

Says more about how poorly the brain is understood than anything else. Also, very possible that the measures that were take to keep people "safe" were a factor. Anyone know if there was a control group given the same treatment (double blind) - but with a placebo? __________ EDIT: Direct link to the related research paper: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: a feasibility study http://www.thelancet.com/pb/assets/raw/Lancet/pdfs/S2215036616300657.pdf http://www.thelancet.com/pb/assets/raw/Lancet/pdfs/S22150366...

hippich 10y ago
I wonder what could be given as placebo tho. It is not like you do not notice you are tripping.
- lawpoop 10y ago
  I think in Johns Hopkins studies they were using amphetamines, and also they recruited people who were hallucinogenic-naive.
  - DigitalJack 10y ago
    But then you'd have to do a study of amphetamines and depression. It's really tricky to come up with a sham effect in a placebo without destroying the integrity of the control group.
    - jjawssd 10y ago
      Can't you physically isolate the two groups somehow?
      - DigitalJack 10y ago
        The problem with studying a drug using control groups and placebos is that for some drugs (such as marijuana, LSD, etc.) people will know that they must have gotten a placebo due to the lack of effect. Researchers will sometimes use a substitute to create some effect that a naive participant may believe to be the real thing, but it can be difficult to be convincing. This can damage the integrity of the control group because they would know they hadn't gotten the real thing (and thus possibly negating the placebo effect). People who know they got the real thing may see benefits that are actually the placebo effect, and if your control group isn't able to control for this effect, it lowers the quality of your study. There are also moral issues with tough studies such as last ditch experimental studies on stage IV cancers. Even in a double blind study, the research will know they are giving placebos to some of the participants, and thus have no chance of helping them.

pigpaws 10y ago

Legalize, standardize, tax, repeat. Why is it that difficult? People will do anything to keep their grip on (perceived) power - even if it means destroying someone's life. Gov't doesn't really want jobs, or tax revenue at the expense of their jobs. What would cops do if they weren't locking up kids for a joint?

sickbeard 10y ago
Are you saying people who smoke weed do it for life and death situations?
- ceejayoz 10y ago
  Some chronic pain and cancer patients see dramatically improved quality of life with medical marijuana.
- SwellJoe 10y ago
  I think prior comment is saying that police routinely ruin people's lives by locking them up over drug use.
eloff 10y ago
Not everything is a giant conspiracy theory. If society changed to the point where drugs didn't have such a stigma against them, then the politicians would legalize them. They excel at doing things that are popular - be it good or bad things. Case in point Canada with their goal of legalizing marijuana. It's harder to do that in the US because you have more conservative people who see drugs as morally repugnant. My prediction is blue states will continue legalizing and red states will be the last holdout.
- chestervonwinch 10y ago
  On the other hand, much of the stigma comes from the illegality.
  - fnordsensei 10y ago

sageabilly 10y ago

It's great to see the advances in research that are being done around Psilocybin, MDMA, and Ketamine as the results that are coming out look incredibly promising. That being said, godDAMN how in the hell is anyone ever going to take studies like this seriously when they're being reported as "Magic Mushrooms" in Scientific American of all places? This isn't raver kiddies eating dried who-knows-what out of ziplock bags at raves, this is a controlled dosing of psilocybin in a medical setting for treatment of a serious illness. The stigma around researching these drugs is never going to go away unless the language itself changes.

arxpoetica 10y ago
A return to alchemy...
- nxzero 10y ago
  A return to science...
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
fluxquanta 10y ago
Whenever pot-culture words come up in "reporting" about medical treatments I immediately tune out. That's not to say there aren't any potential health benefits but "toking herb" (or whatever) isn't the best way to present them to people who still demonize it.
- civilian 10y ago
  I know there's been an effort to use the word "Cannabis" as a way to sound legitimate, instead of pot/weed/marijuana. Do you react better to 'cannabis'?
  - protomyth 10y ago

sev 10y ago

> It took 32 months between having the grant awarded and dosing the first patient, says Nutt. By comparison, it took six months “to get through the machinations” for his team’s previous studies using the equally illegal drugs LSD and MDMA, he says. I thought we were making progress...

mickgiles 10y ago

They needed a study to show that magic mushrooms make you happy? That is why they are called "magic" mushrooms

joesmo 10y ago

The irony of psilocybin classification as a Schedule 1 drug is that it's not even addictive. But then again, the US government and America in general has never let facts get in the way of their goals to ruin people's lives. People have known this is an effective treatment for depression for many years. How many lives have been ruined simply because of its being illicit and unavailable to treat patients who needed it? When I think about it that way, I can't help but hope these murderers will one day get justice, but I know they won't.

jtwebman 10y ago

12 people isn't a scientific study! Where is the control group? I think maybe we need a few more studies before people go out and start eating magic mushrooms to not be depressed.

soundwave106 10y ago
I'm a bit skeptical of just one small study too. From what I am aware, there have been plenty of other 5-HT2A agonists that are not the "classic" psychedelics out there in the labs, and I rarely see them thought of as anti-depressants in Wiki pages etc. (5HT2A agonists being thought of as other treatments? Yes, treatment of migraines and glaucoma have been mentioned in some of the articles -- one example here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AL-34662 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AL-34662 -- but a lot of things seem a long way off even there.) But there's precedent, so who knows. Remember a few years back there was several articles about ketamine being discovered to also helping major depressive disorder? These articles still appear in fact: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/a-one-time-party-drug-is-helping-people-with-deep-depression/2016/02/01/d3e73862-b490-11e5-a76a-0b5145e8679a_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/a-one... http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/03/what-its-like-to-treat-severe-depression-with-a-hallucinogenic-drug.html http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/03/what-its-like-to-treat-... From what I am aware, this revelation was a big deal at a deeper level, in that it showed a new pathway to relieving depression -- glutamate. Previously I think almost all anti-depression drugs was based around serotonin. Ketamine on the other hand is an NMDA antagnoist (the NMDA receptor being one of the main binding sites of glutamate) so was completely different than SSRIs. Hallucinations are honestly considered a "bad side effect" for a clinical anti-depressant, so there has been a fair bit of work in developing drugs that modulate the NMDA receptor / glutamate in a way that relieves major depressive disorder without the psychedelic effects. (http://www.medpagetoday.com/psychiatry/depression/54448 http://www.medpagetoday.com/psychiatry/depression/54448) I know that one of them, Rapastinel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapastinel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapastinel Has seemed to move rather quickly through the FDA clinical trials, currently phase 3 / FDA fast track. I suppose you could attempt to gobble ketamine, too, to try to self-medicate your way out of depression. But there are risks with that approach. (Short of waiting for the big pharmaceutical approach, there are "ketamine clinics" which, while definitely "off label" / experimental, are at least a more controlled way of attempting this treatment.)

trhway 10y ago

i think we'll be looking back at our time with amusement to say the least - these people, like millions others, were having serious problems for decades (17.8 years avg in the article) while known remedies like cannabis, mushrooms and other stuff is just prohibited out of the irrational fear and powergrab desire driving the war on drugs.

trub 10y ago

not surprised

trub 10y ago

I'm shocked!

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

apo 10y ago

From the study: > A logical next step would be to carry out a placebo controlled randomised trial in which the level of therapist contact is consistent between conditions. http://www.thelancet.com/pb/assets/raw/Lancet/pdfs/S2215036616300657.pdf http://www.thelancet.com/pb/assets/raw/Lancet/pdfs/S22150366... Depression studies are subject to well-known, powerful placebo effects, rendering this study's conclusions next to useless: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/are-antidepressants-just-placebos-with-side-effects/ http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/are-antidepr...

cryptoz 10y ago
> next to useless No study or scientific curiosity is "next to useless". You are being intentionally antagonistic and there's no need for that. All research has to start somewhere, and this study is a significant start to this field. In no way is it or its conclusions "next to useless".
- patrickmclaren 10y ago
  Agreed. One might say to take the conclusion with a grain of salt, but "next to useless" is being overly dismissive.
  - cpncrunch 10y ago
    No, it is simply a statement of fact. Given that all treatments for depression produce a powerful placebo effect, any non-placebo-controlled trial tells you absolutely nothing about the effectiveness of the treatment. It's true that it does tell you if the treatment is safe, but I think it's fair to say that that information is "next to useless", as there are an almost infinite number of potential treatments. The only way to know if any of them are effective is to do a placebo-controlled trial. Still, I think it is a plausible treatment, so hopefully there will be some better trials.
- apo 10y ago
  Maybe the brush was a bit broad. However, studies interpreted more broadly than warranted can lead the unwary down deep, expensive, counterproductive dead ends. This happens all the time as the popular media get ahold stories, especially those relating to drug treatments and nutrition. Consider the headline: "Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial." That conclusion is out of line with the way in which the experiment was conducted, especially given the high tendency for large placebo effects in such studies. Without proper controls, the conclusion that magic mushrooms lift severe depression is next to useless.

kolapuriya 10y ago

I really do believe some of the more negative stereotypes and stigma is beginning to lift surrounding the therapeutic use of entheogens. Like you stated time and accurate information with disciplined research hopefully leads to change. I think we have all seen that occur with marijuana for both medical and recreational use. I am very optimistic about the future of psychedelic use for those that need it and those that desire it.

sageikosa 10y ago

Going through that whole process to run the trial could easily lead to depression.

niccaluim 10y ago

Twelve people. No control group. And as a person who has suffered lifelong depression, and up until 2.5 years ago had serious substance problems: duh, drugs change the way you feel. I'm not saying there's nothing worth exploring here. My personal intuition is that psychedelics could be a huge help in some cases, especially for treatment-resistant depression. But this "study" isn't worth squat.

stuxnet79 10y ago

Is there any literature in their efficacy in treating anxiety disorders? As somebody who's suffered from severe anxiety since my mid-teens and had it cleared up more or less from medication I'm extremely interested in seeing how Psilocybin would affect the disorder. I would be quite willing to try it out but I'm very hesitant because I suspect my underlying anxiety would undermine the experience and possibly leave me in a worse off state than before.

instakill 10y ago
Study on cancer patients showed positive results. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20819978 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20819978
fapjacks 10y ago
Hey, so... I've got pretty severe PTSD from my experiences in combat. Loads of anxiety. I have to tell you since you made this point, that mushrooms specifically have helped me so tremendously to manage the anxiety. The way I describe it to other veterans (to encourage its use among people suffering from these disorders) is that mushrooms help ground me by providing a safe, chill, unique experience that I can later use as a point of reference when my anxiety gets bad. Make sure you know what you are putting into your body, don't take too many, don't eat them in a strange environment (a quiet weekend night in your living room is a good place), and only do mushrooms with someone you know and trust (and who has experience with the experience). You will thank yourself for doing it. It will change your life for the better if you follow those simple guidelines.
primitivesuave 10y ago
Yes, psilocybin will help. An ex-girlfriend of mine had severe anxiety problems after being sexually abused, and one of our earliest memories together was taking 3 grams of Psilocybe Cubensis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybe_cubensis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybe_cubensis) during a hike to Half Dome in Yosemite. She underwent a transformative experience that day, not only overcoming her anxiety problems but also her fear of snakes (we saw several rattlesnakes at an uncomfortably close distance to us) and her fear of heights/fear of falling. While I wouldn't recommend taking psychedelics in a dangerous situation or during strenuous exercising, taking psychedelics in the right situation can be transformative to those with deeply-rooted mental issues.

ifnaut 10y ago

I owe my entire successful career in science and mathematics to repeated use of LSD in my late teens/early 20's. It woke my desire to seek answers to the underlying mechanics of the universe. Before that, I was just a high school drop-out with low self-esteem, no direction, and no positive role models.

bashinator 10y ago
I have read that LSD can induce your brain into learning states similar to that of a baby, where new connections (and disconnections?) are able to be formed effortlessly. Given your experience, I wish there were more research being done. It could be another tool to help people overcome trauma or personality disorders.
- jjawssd 10y ago
  This is definitely what it feels like at least. A sense of raw novelty is evoked with our lack of understanding of the world around us becomes focused front and center. Everything is beautiful in its own right. And the fractals in all of existence thoughts and visions run infinitely deep but we can almost grasp them.
- atom-morgan 10y ago
  Yes, this is exactly how I'd describe it. I remember watching The Hobbit and being blown away. I felt like a kid all over again.

primitivesuave 10y ago

For those seeking to break down the barriers of the mind, psilocybin and mescaline are the most intelligent options. SWIM (Someone Who Isn't Me) grew mushrooms and peyote cactus to enable revelations in the minds of consenting adults, and every single person who ingested these naturally-occurring organic substances thanked SWIM for a life-changing experience. That said, there are obvious risks to glorifying psychedelic use, especially when available psychedelics are usually in the form of LSD. While these synthetic compounds can yield the same results as their organic counterparts, there is no way to verify the amount of LSD in a dose. Overdosing on LSD can trigger schizophrenia and several other mental problems in those who are prone to it. This is why SWIM recommends organic psychedelic compounds that can be clearly measured into an appropriate dosage for the individual's size and past psychedelic experience. There is also an overwhelming trend amongst unscrupulous suppliers to market doses of DOC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,5-Dimethoxy-4-chloroamphetam... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,5-Dimethoxy-4-chloroamphetam...) as LSD. While the observed effect of the two are similar, DOC can be extremely dangerous to those with hypertension and high blood pressure. DOC is also an amphetamine with greater risk of physical addiction. SWIM also wants to point out that SWIM engaged in countless adventures with varying levels of psilocybin and mescaline dosages, and arrived at the conclusion that psychedelic substances are not necessary for seeing the beauty in life or the purpose that one may have in this world. SWIM's most transformative revelations came about while completely sober at a Taoist monastery of the Wudang mountains in China. It is SWIM's opinion that all can know beauty as beauty only because there is ugliness (Tao Te Ching, chapter 2), and now urges people to pursue safe and well-known techniques (meditation, yoga, tai chi, qi gong) for improving one's state of mind.

tribby 10y ago
>there is no way to verify the amount of LSD in a dose Nor psilocybin in a mushroom...
- primitivesuave 10y ago
  The variance in potency is negligible, especially when compared to the variance in potency of LSD doses. It is generally known amongst those taking mushrooms that 2 - 3 grams is within most people's comfort level. The real variance comes from how dry the mushrooms are - mushrooms that are more moist will be less potent. This is why a responsible mushroom grower will thoroughly dry their mushrooms before consuming them.

peterwwillis 10y ago

I like how marijuana and psilocybin have no negative side effects and it's taken hundreds of years to be taken seriously as clinical treatments. Meanwhile, according to the FDA, there were "56,000 emergency room visits, 26,000 hospitalizations, and 458 deaths per year related to acetaminophen-associated overdoses during the 1990s. unintentional acetaminophen overdose accounted for nearly 25 percent of the emergency department visits, 10 percent of the hospitalizations, and 25 percent of the deaths [per year]." [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracetamol#Liver_damage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracetamol#Liver_damage

pasbesoin 10y ago

More anecdote leaning towards truth that my friends were self-medicating and not simply "doing something bad." I am now, well into middle age, firmly in the camp that I missed out, due to fear, propaganda, and mis-information. And that my life might have been much better if I had not bought so heavily into that message and instead had "experimented". Trust your observations; not blind authority. Anyway... I'm currently trying to overcome a combination of symptoms, thoughts, and feelings, stemming from years of abuse, PTSD, and eventually significant knock-on physical health effects. In the past, I've tried SSRI's, NSRI's, Wellbutrin. Immediate, horrible reactions to each. The only thing that helped was a small dose of Adderall -- much lower than standard. And St. John's Wort. Almost impossible in the U.S. to find a doctor who will agree to simultaneous use of both -- unlike in Europe, so I understand. And the doctor I found was a jerk who almost cost me my chance to purchase next year's health insurance, due to his lack of response on paperwork. So, no more Adderall. I'm ready to try magic mushrooms. Maybe a low, pure dose of ketamin. Or perhaps MDMA. Under supervision -- medical or simply experienced and well-intentioned. But, there is no avenue for this. And big pharma and the "war on drugs" will do their best to keep it locked down. I simply have no trust left in the Establishment, in the U.S., with respect to medical practice. Or, very select trust, in individual practitioners. Who are often caught in a system that severely hampers their ability to actually practice effective medicine and treatment.

darreld 10y ago
I agree with you completely. When I was young I smoked a lot of weed but was afraid of LSD and mushrooms. Now that I'm nearing 60 I feel that I definitely missed out. Since dealing with pretty bad anxiety from, I assume, extreme stress at work for decades, I'm ready to try mushrooms and, in the right setting, LSD. My problem is availability.
- pasbesoin 10y ago
  Except for one minor contact high at a party, I never even experienced weed. I have a friend who had strikingly similar experiences as a child. She quit school for a while and got high daily -- mostly weed, as I understand it. About the age of 21 or 22, she got herself back into school and now has a very successful professional career. Drugs may indeed destroy some people. But, the messaging is far too simple -- and simplistic. And, those people often are not helped. They are simply castigated and ostracized. I don't mean, at all, to make light of such circumstances. And, I have currently been helping someone -- help to the tune of dozens of hours per week and hundreds of miles driven, and hundreds of dollars -- who came darned close to being lost, herself. I'd still trade my life for hers. She's lived hers -- mistakes and all.

notadoc 10y ago

On a similar note, there are many studies about ketamine administration (the anesthetic) having positive impacts on depression and chronic pain. There are ongoing clinical trials, it has been widely covered in media lately, and many major US cities have doctors who run ketamine clinics. https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00088699 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00088699 http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/03/what-its-like-to-treat-severe-depression-with-a-hallucinogenic-drug.html http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/03/what-its-like-to-treat-... http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/09/28/443203592/club-drug-ketamine-gains-traction-as-a-treatment-for-depression http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/09/28/44320359... Is it really surprising to anyone that mind altering chemicals could alter mental states? A silly question, obviously.

deleted 10y ago

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alva 10y ago

Lots of people with positive experiences with psilocybin in this thread. I have also had many incredible experiences and advocate its use, with conditions. But. And this is a very important thing to know before anyone reading decides to try it for the first time. Psilocybin experiences can be truly traumatic. If you have existing mental health issues, please be very, very careful before you decide to take it. Do all the research you can. I have one friend who went completely over the edge, reached the point of no return. It triggered a predisposition to a horrible mental illness. It has destroyed his life and his familys. For a small number of people, this can happen. If you think you might be vulnerable to this but still want to go ahead, please make sure you are responsibly and get an experienced sitter and a safe, familiar setting.

fucking_tragedy 10y ago
> I have one friend who went completely over the edge, reached the point of no return. It triggered a predisposition to a horrible mental illness. It has destroyed his life and his family. Have any details you're comfortable sharing? Particularly the mental illness, what happened when they were triggered and how often they dosed?
- alva 10y ago
  Sure. They had an incredibly bad time with the trip, far worse than what you usually associate with a bad trip. Violence, screaming, paranoia, gibberish. All stuff (maybe apart from the violence) that can happen on a bad one, but this was extreme. Setting was familiar and safe, no external stresses during the period. This was his first time with mushrooms, although regular cannabis smoker (which also might have caused an issue). Regular dose. The next few days he was still recovering, but thoughts still very scattered and incoherent. Unfortunately this didn't taper off. I had not seen him for a few weeks until his family were in contact. The behaviour had become drastically worse, violence and paranoia. Eventually he was diagnosed with schizophrenia. From what I have read, with a certain kind of predisposition it would have probably manifested itself later in his life if he was unlucky. I don't want to put people off Psilocybin as it can be an incredible thing. Just be damn careful and do your research.