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30% of US Workforce Need License to Perform Their Job

131 points by jvrossb 11y ago

brudgers 11y ago
Citation for the 30% figure?
fillskills 11y ago
My jaw hasn't dropped so low in a long time. As stated in the OP I fail to understand the reasoning behing most of the licenses. Great job bringing this issue up.
- ekianjo 11y ago
  Rent-seeking for the ones holding the licenses currently. Prevent market disruption as well.
- programmarchy 11y ago
  Why work long, hard, and fairly for your money when you can use the power of the state (a monopoly on violence) to raise prices by creating artificial scarcity for your labor (and beget another monopoly)?
  - wavefunction 11y ago
    Ah, _you_ can be violent at any time. You can go get a gun with a five minute waiting period or go to the kitchen for a knife or find a blunt object and go be as violent as your pretty little heart desires. Of course the rest of us may react strongly to your violence but that is, of course, as it has always been. Your freedom to be violent ends where our freedom to be violent begins. Or perhaps you mean violence === an expectation of pro-social behavior.
    - programmarchy 11y ago
      That's not what I meant. Sorry for the sarcastic tone. I'm saying occupational licenses enforced by the state are a means of granting political privilege to a group of people, at the expense of another group (usually the poor) through the use of coercion, i.e. violence. This may sound dramatic, but it's true. Because if an unlicensed (non-privileged) person is operating in the market, even if they are reasonably qualified, they will still be targeted by the state on behalf of the licensed (privileged) lobby: First, the unlicensed person may be fined. If they refuse to pay the fine, they may receive a warrant. If they refuse to go to court, agents of the state will knock at their door, threaten to lock them in a cage for not paying their tribute, and ultimately use physical violence to force compliance.
      - crdoconnor 11y ago
        >at the expense of another group (usually the poor) Because hairdressers are some of the richest people you know? I'm kind of okay with them having some occupational barriers to entry, actually. It's not like they earn a lot anyway, and it makes up for some of the absolutely egregious and enormous political privileges granted to the 1% which are completely ignored both in this article and by the people commenting on it in this thread.
  - tomc1985 11y ago
    As a customer, I want these people to be licensed. I don't mind paying more to know that they will do a good job. There's a big problem of money-chasing hacks that spend minimal effort learning the skills they need so they can claim the profession. I don't want these people doing my hair or fixing my plumbing or doing my electricity. Sometimes I wish software engineering had an effective credentialing mechanism (that isn't university), because there's a lot of idiots in this field.
  - crdoconnor 11y ago
    Yet when the donors of the Brookings institute (like JP Morgan) create artificial scarcity massively in excess of what a hairdresser can do, that they can profit from, they can rely upon Brookings' silence.
liveoneggs 11y ago
this article makes a lot of broad assumptions ("If licensing an electrician is for public safety then...") and relatively shallow conclusions ("upholsterers need a license, wtf?") based on them. Full of weasels without a doubt.
- Natsu 11y ago
  Why did you cut off the quote? The full quote is: "If the rationale for licensing an electrician is to protect public safety, it is difficult to see what rationale supports licensing travel guides." Moreover, the assumptions they're making are charitable. I think most people agree with licensing engineers, electricians, doctors and the like where doing their job wrong has serious consequences. But for the same reason, it's less clear what public benefit there is behind requiring florists, interior designers or ballroom dancers to be licensed in order to practice their craft.
dm2 11y ago
Text only cache because site is broken at the moment: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:www.brookings.edu/blogs/up-front/posts/2015/01/26-time-to-examine-occupational-licensing-practices-kearney-hershbein-boddy&hl=en&gl=us&strip=1 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:www.bro...
latch 11y ago
An oldest economist article [1] that appeared on HN [2] opened my eyes to this issue. [1] http://www.economist.com/node/18678963?story_id=18678963&fsrc=rss http://www.economist.com/node/18678963?story_id=18678963&fsr... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2548399 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2548399
jdavis703 11y ago
Most of these licenses arise because the people practicing them wind up hurting, or even killing people. Examples include tour guides running over pedestrians while driving and entertaining [0]. Or software engineers writing code that has probably killed people [1], or "beauticians" being forced to work in near-slavery conditions [2], or professional drivers killing people [3]. 0. http://m.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/About-to-be-silenced-S-F-tour-bus-operators-not-6185055.php http://m.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/About-to-be-silenced-S-F... 1. http://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/pubs/koopman14_toyota_ua_slides.pdf http://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/pubs/koopman14_toyota_ua_s... 2. http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/05/18/nyregion/cuomo-to-offer-2-measures-to-improve-conditions-in-the-nail-salon-industry.html?referrer=&_r=0 http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/05/18/nyregion/cuomo-to-offer... 3. http://pando.com/2014/01/02/uber-driver-hits-kills-6-year-old-girl-is-not-our-problem-still-an-appropriate-response/ http://pando.com/2014/01/02/uber-driver-hits-kills-6-year-ol...
- maratd 11y ago
  > Most of these licenses arise because the people practicing them wind up hurting, or even killing people. Correction: Most of these licenses arise because those in the industry want to create a barrier to entry and use examples of morons doing their job poorly as evidence of need.
  - ekianjo 11y ago
    Exactly. And I feel it's expanding rather than shrinking.
  - nmrm2 11y ago
    Of course it's both. In many of these cases, the public has a strong enough interest to justify licensing requirements. E.g., it would be impractical to eliminate CDLs, licensing for food prep/barbers, etc. Once these licensing requirements exist, it's easier to justify increasing requirements as a way of increasing the barrier to entry.
  - wfo 11y ago
    This "everyone is a moron we don't need regulations if everyone was a genius LIKE ME" attitude isn't particularly convincing. But it pervades this thread. It's full of people who can't imagine even the possibility that a regulation could be created for the good of people instead of with literally evil intent. If this is the new face of the anti-regulation side of the debate we've really reached a new low; it's not a debate anymore, it's rabid mindless religious extremism.
joe_the_user 11y ago
A lot of the examples seem to involve professions involving grooming people - barbers, manicurists, etc. While the required training amount might be out of line, it seems like some state supervision for these professions is needed because unhygienic or unsafe practices could serious consequences - ie, spreading disease. So this seems less totally insane than it might.
- caseysoftware 11y ago
  This is licensing based on paying fees and completing classes, not - as in health codes for restaurants - based on the cleanliness or safety of the work place.
  - nmrm2 11y ago
    Most states require food prep employees to carry some form of food safety certification. Any additional checks are above and beyond this and other basic requirements. Of course, there's a good reason that both exist in food prep. Downgrading a restaurant only after the typhoid outbreak isn't really serving the best interest of the public. And continuous monitoring/enforcement is too expensive.
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  Right. Licensing these professions is completely reasonable. But years of training and extortionate costs to acquire a license is nowhere near reasonable.
nostromo 11y ago
http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/06/22/155596305/episode-381-why-its-illegal-to-braid-hair-without-a-license http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/06/22/155596305/episo... > A few years ago, Jestina Clayton started a hair braiding business in her home in Centerville, Utah. The business let her stay home with her kids, and in good months, she made enough to pay for groceries. She even put an ad on a local website. Then one day she got an email from a stranger who had seen the ad. > "It is illegal in the state of Utah to do any form of extensions without a valid cosmetology license," the e-mail read. "Please delete your ad, or you will be reported." > To get a license, Jestina would have to spend more than a year in cosmetology school. Tuition would cost $16,000 dollars or more.
- afarrell 11y ago
  Texas just passed a law to remove this regulation https://www.texastribune.org/2015/06/08/after-18-years-good-hair-day-capitol/ https://www.texastribune.org/2015/06/08/after-18-years-good-...
- sago 11y ago
  > Tuition would cost $16,000 dollars or more. That was my first thought. How many of these licenses have formal requirements for university or college tuition. Given the money bleeding tactics of tertiary education, it wouldn't surprise me to find their grubby finger prints behind legislative action to prop up their monopoly over the workforce.
techbio 11y ago
License licenses license license.
tsomctl 11y ago
Although not directly related to the article, in some fields you just need to work under someone that has a contractors license. Many plumbers, electricians, builders, etc, aren't licensed, but they are employed by someone that is, and the owner of the company signs off on their work saying it is acceptable.
TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
Doing minimal safety training seems reasonable, I think. If it cost $200 to enter a profession, that wouldn't be so bad. But two years and $10,000? What planet do these legislators think they're on? (Licensingindustrylobbyus, probably)
- ProAm 11y ago
  It depends, to cut hair its no biggie, if you are dying/treating hair with chemicals than can burn the crap out of your skin I can easily see why this is required. We are litigious in the US, this is the cost of doing business.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
    > It depends, to cut hair its no biggie It's a little more dangerous than you might immediately think. You're working with sharp blades and hot objects. Edit: Oh, apparently, there's a serious risk of disease transmission. I hadn't considered that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2549477 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2549477
    - colordrops 11y ago
      That's still not years and thousands of dollars of training though.
    - dmix 11y ago
      Couldn't a private trusted 3rd-party company provide certification to verify my barber went to school for x or knows what he is doing? Why does the government need to charge outrageous fees under serious threat if they dont'? (Honest question) The concepts of trust in x organization is much clearer today thanks to the internet.
      - moonchrome 11y ago
        >Couldn't a private trusted 3rd-party company provide certification to verify my barber went to school for x or knows what he is doing? This is basically solved by franchising, but that also adds cost to the producer. But whatever model you chose it puts the responsibility of informing yourself about the safety of your options on the consumer. People like when their choices are "safe by default" so they like regulation, even if it doesn't accomplish what it states as long as it appears to be effective it's going to be supported. I can't really decide if that's bad or not, in most cases the safety will be there anyway and if it inspires the consumer confidence it allows the economy to function more efficiently.
marcusgarvey 11y ago
Funny. The Greek economy has been criticized by many economic commentators for also having this kind of "closed-shop" paradigm. Not sure what their percentage is in comparison to the U.S.
javajosh 11y ago
John Oliver rant about this in 3..2..1..
fiatmoney 11y ago
It's easy, but lazy, to look at regulations and say "this is obviously a bad idea." It's harder and more rewarding to think, "what are the forces that generate these regulations, and how can we change those forces?" One explanation is that they're oriented towards businesses that tend to be sole proprietorships with super low capital requirements - anyone can potentially start running tours or cutting hair or interior decorating, without even renting a storefront. So, those kinds of businesses have much more of an incentive to use legislation to restrict entry, rather than relying on more "inherent" economic barriers. Relatively speaking, they have a higher payoff to lobbying than, say, a pizzeria that needs to invest a lot in ovens, rent, and payroll - if you can afford those, you can afford to either take Pizza Making 101 under a licensing regime, or more realistically fight the licensing regime itself. How do you change that pattern given a democracy that responds to lobbying? Frankly I'm not sure, but trying to figure it out has a higher payoff than complaining about it.
- humbledrone 11y ago
  By your same reasoning, isn't it lazy of you to complain about the article rather than trying to understand the forces that generate these kinds of articles, and thinking about how to change those forces? But seriously, what's wrong with complaining? Maybe the author of the article doesn't have a good plan for fixing the problem, but what if one of their readers does? What if this "lazy complaining" article brought the issue to someone's attention who might not otherwise have thought about it, and that person has a great idea? I mean, obviously it would better if the author had root-caused the problem with the legislation and suggested a clever way to push it the other direction. But... they didn't. So what?
- pakled_engineer 11y ago
  They also lobby against family owned pizzerias through city hall. Many cities have air ventilation regulations for restaurants lobbied in as a barrier to entry, requiring they install an expensive ventilation system and all it takes is a major fast food chain on the same block as your family run restaurant quietly hiring a few stooges to go down to city hall and complain about the smell and the fines add up until you're forced out of the area.
- 11y ago
jwineinger 11y ago
http://fee.org/freeman/detail/does-occupational-licensing-protect-consumers http://fee.org/freeman/detail/does-occupational-licensing-pr... "[A]n Oregon board regulating cosmetology raised the number of training hours required for entry from 1,500 to 2,500. According to Cato Institute author David Young, pressure for the change came not from disgruntled cosmetology consumers but from beauty schools that were able to charge more tuition and serve more consumers in school training salons."
jphilip147 11y ago
Working in US is getting difficult for us.
deftnerd 11y ago
Something else of note is that the majority of occupational license requirements exclude felons. Sometimes they'll put verbiage into the law saying that once someone has completed the requirements they can petition the board for an exemption, but what person would put in 1000+ days for a license to cut hair without knowing if their work was for naught?
ccvannorman 11y ago
"The more plentiful the laws, the more corrupt the state." -Plato
- logicchains 11y ago
  "When there are many restrictions in the world The people become more impoverished The more laws are posted The more robbers and thieves there are" - Lao Tzu
- _delirium 11y ago
  I don't think Plato's critique there is necessarily getting at what you're intending. Plato is arguing that direct commands by a ruler are superior to written statute laws, because they allow for the use of good judgment and have less scope for bureaucratic idiocy and corruption than a lengthy statute book does. He's not against the state imposing restrictions on anyone, he just thinks it should be done by direct command of wise philosopher-kings, rather than by codified law. His system if anything quite strongly restricted what people could do in the economic sphere. The "producers" were one of the three classes kept strictly separate (the other two being warriors and rulers), and must follow the directions of the rulers, as enforced by the warriors, in order to ensure that production is in keeping with the needs and morals of the polis.
MrTonyD 11y ago
Brookings has a long history of very biased studies. They seem to decide the outcome first, and then carefully craft a study to get the desired outcome. And since Brookings is constantly advocating for less regulation and "free markets" - no matter the cost to society - I'm not surprised that they found some way to find that most people need licenses. Honestly, it isn't even worth my time to read the study to figure out how they gamed the data. I'm just posting this comment in case readers aren't familiar with Brookings reality distortions.
- daniel-levin 11y ago
  Can you substantiate your comment?
brohoolio 11y ago
Percentages might help. Out of the 30% how many are teachers, engineers, skills trades, doctors, nurses, etc? I'm guessing a ton of these positions everyone would shrug and say yes, I want my doctor to have a license. For the positions that might not be obvious why they require a license I wonder how many are because someone fucked up and caused a problem? Probably more than you might think. They generally just don't make rules up. So maybe 10% of jobs that require a license (3% of overall jobs) actually need to be addressed. You'd never know that reading this piece. Reading this piece you are left with a sense of outrage the government is bad, why are they messing with people blah blah blah instead of an actionable list. Let's fix the list, but realize that this is a political body writing this with specific goals probably paid for by a deep pocket interest.
- steve19 11y ago
  why does your teacher need a license? background check, sure, but license?
  - rwmj 11y ago
    Individual private tutors (in the UK at least) need a background check if they teach children under 18, but not a license. Teachers of whole classrooms in schools need a QTS, which is a qualification demonstrating their skills as teachers. This seems reasonable since it gives a fairly simple way for parents and schools to evaluate whether a teacher is completely useless or not (but not that they are a great teacher - a license probably could never tell you that). I'm interested to know why you (I assume) think licensing teachers is a bad idea.
  - kw71 11y ago
    My teacher needs a license to show that he has completed education that should make him competent, continues to maintain competency, and has not faced any questions of conduct or discipline which should rightfully deprive him of such license. I would like this strengthened to include that the individual is sound on a psychological or psychiatric level, since many teachers work with children. True story, I faced a lot of abuse during my childhood and so was in therapy to deal with it. Waiting to see the therapist one day, I got to stare down an abusive former teacher who happened to be in the waiting room, waiting for psychiatric services. Since her employer manages its own health insurance, they knew about this person's history of psychiatric problems because they paid the costs for her services. But the local teachers union has made it so that unless you actually rape a child during class, there's no chance of being fired from the school board.
makeitsuckless 11y ago
This has always baffled me about the US. Always complaining about the bureaucracy and lack of freedom of "socialist" countries, yet maintaining this absurd professional licensing that defies parody.
- adventured 11y ago
  People in the US complain about the lack of freedom and bureaucracy in the US as well, a lot. The US isn't a Capitalist, low tax, low regulation, small government system (and hasn't been in a very long time); it's a highly regulated welfare state, with mid-upper tier taxation. We have a total government system the size of Japan's entire economy. What else could come out of something that massive, other than extreme regulation, and eventual suffocation? It's not like they're just going to suddenly stop passing thousands of new regulations each year. The professional political class has nothing else to do, it's partially how they justify their existence.
  - crdoconnor 11y ago
    >People in the US complain This article isn't 'people' complaining. It's a mouthpiece mainly for a group of select US corporations. You know they don't give two shits about hairdresser barriers to entry, either. Judging by the list of members, they want deregulation for the finance industry.
  - _delirium 11y ago
    Licensing requirements and existence of a welfare state or high taxation are fairly different uses of government that don't necessarily go together. For example, Texas has low taxes and a poor welfare system, but is quite enthusiastic about licensing requirements.
tzs 11y ago
Out of curiosity, I took a look at the cosmetology program at the local community college [1] to see what's required. This program prepares students for the Washington State Cosmetology Licensing Exam. Before enrolling in the cosmetology program, you have to complete these courses (number in parenthesis is number of credits): Business and Personal Mathematics (5) Human Relations in the Workplace (3) English Composition (5) You can then enroll in the cosmetology program, which takes 5 quarters. Here are the first quarter courses: Professional Career (2) Cosmetology General Sciences (2) Hair Care, Hairstyling & Haircutting (3) Chemical Texture Services (2) Cosmetology Lab Clinic I (12) Second quarter: Hair Color (2) Intermediate Haircutting (2) Advanced Chemical Texture Services (2) Cosmetology Skin Care (2) Cosmetology Lab Clinic II (13) Third quarter: Intermediate Hair Color (2) Advanced Haircutting (2) Nail Care (1) Wigs, Braiding/Extensions (1) Cosmetology Lab Clinic III (13) Fourth quarter: Facial Makeup (1) Cosmetology Lab Clinic IV (13) Advanced Hair Coloring (2) Business Skills I (1) Fifth quarter: Cosmetology Lab Clinic V (13) Business Skills (1) State Board Preparation (4) I would not have guessed that many classes were needed. Tuition is $106.84/credit for Washington state residents. The above listed classes come to 109 credits, so $11645.56 tuition. [1] http://www.olympic.edu/cosmetology-ata-associate-technical-arts http://www.olympic.edu/cosmetology-ata-associate-technical-a...
cm2187 11y ago
It is very topical. Currently anyone can declare himself a software developer. That largely explains the number of sql injection vulnerabilities, unencrypted sensitive data, unintuitive software UI, unpatched servers, cross site scripting vulnerabilities, and other moronic software design decisions. For many years there was a sense that what is electronic doesn't matter. That breaking into someone's computer is at best a game while breaking into someone's home is a crime. That hacking and disrupting a power plant is an annoyance while bombing it is an act of war. But I think it is changing. Non-technical people now realise that software is massively important in our society, and the alarming pace of data breaches is giving a bad reputation to the industry. I think a system of licenses for developers is inevitable.
- raverbashing 11y ago
  The idea that licenses would solve that is naive at best and dangerous at worse I've known people with CS degrees and half of them would throw you a blank stare at those words > unintuitive software UI Most licensed engineers are guilty of this So make sure only those who have a magical paper and studied at fancy schools (where they probably will learn PHP, the basics of sql injection - oh wait, there are new vulnerabilities, but I don't have to worry about these because I didn't learn about them in school) can work on computing, I'm sure quality will shoot right up /s
  - cm2187 11y ago
    Well, how was it solved in other industries? Licenses and norms. In the construction industry you can't just build a house. You have a pile of norms and regulations you have to comply with. Today anyone can open a website and start taking passwords. I'm not looking forward that but do you have a better solution? The way the industry currently works is unsustainable. And I am not even talking about privacy invasion.
    - raquo 11y ago
      Because if you build or design the smallest house improperly, it could collapse and kill people. If you build a crappy WordPress site nothing of similar consequence will happen.
normand1 11y ago
Anytime you purchase a permit for anything from the government you should stop and realize the government has confiscated your right to perform that task and it's selling your rights back to you.
jasonkester 11y ago
If you'd like to see the fantasy paradise that would exist if we abolished these foolish regulations, come to England some time. Then hire the first guy in the phone book who calls himself a "plumber". You would not believe the number of unnecessary holes in my house directly caused by a single plumber's mate (defined: guy willing to work for £8/hr) attempting to do his profession before we could physically remove him from the property. Same goes for "builder", and to an extent even "electrician." It's amazing to watch, coming from America where people are required to be qualified for their jobs.
- switch007 11y ago
  Don't get me started on tradespeople in England. My mum calls out random people to do jobs once in a while (plastering, carpentry/joinery, decoration, general DIY) and with the exception of one plumber, they have been low skilled, lazy and they did not care for doing a proper job. The worst thing is that even these idiots are in demand and struggle to return calls.
- krrrh 11y ago
  I've never lived in London, but I find this story intriguing, esp given the stories of the rigorous exams needed to become a black cab drive in Lomdon. I'd expect that there are private certifications or organizations that guarantee a certain level of competency. Otherwise some sort of review site for contractors like Angies list should either exist or be a massive opportunity in a market like you describe.
  - justincormack 11y ago
    There are private certifications eg [1] and review sites eg [2]. [1] http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/find-an-electrician/ http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/find-an-electrician/ [2] http://www.mybuilder.com/ http://www.mybuilder.com/
- pjc50 11y ago
  Odd about electricians, because they're regulated with the whole "Part P" business that prevents you DIYing it.
crdoconnor 11y ago
NEVER read a think tank's opinion before checking out who funds them first: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brookings_Institution#Funders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brookings_Institution#Funders In this case, the fact that JP Morgan is a major funder should make you more than a little suspicious that they're proposing tearing down 'regulations'. When they try to convince you it's a good idea they talk about hairdressers. When they start writing bills to give to Congress it becomes about reducing capital requirements and deregulating derivatives.
- randomname2 11y ago
  Companies like JP Morgan love regulation. They have the regulators in their pocket and it helps keep out competition.
  - crdoconnor 11y ago
    So explain why they are fighting tooth and nail to deregulate derivatives, if they love it so much.
randomname2 11y ago
Just as a comparison, in the 1950s, only 5% of workers needed a government license to work.
adrianhoward 11y ago
I'm a licensed CSSTWP http://csstwp.com/ http://csstwp.com/ ;-)
tkyjonathan 11y ago
This is probably a good thing.. mainly for people to have job security.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
walshemj 11y ago
That's the problem with having 52 states having many smaller decentralised legislatures makes it much easier for low level corruption to exist. Look at the dodgy court in Texas the "specialises" in patent law and the cases of tiny hamlets with massive police forces and speed traps.
DiaaAttia 11y ago
Hello, if you are a native speaker, whatever your language is, you can earn extra money while working part-time from home as an online tutor through http://preply.com/en http://preply.com/en
DiaaAttia 11y ago
Hello, if you are a native speaker, whatever your language is, you can earn extra money while working part-time from home as an online tutor through http://preply.com/en http://preply.com/en
randomname2 11y ago
Interesting tidbit: The Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation surveyed over 12,000 small business owners in 38 states and 82 metropolitan regions to determine how friendly cities and states are towards small businesses. Licensing was “the most important regulatory issue” and “second only to the strength of the local economy in determining how friendly a state is to small business.”

131 points by jvrossb 11y ago

Citation for the 30% figure?

My jaw hasn't dropped so low in a long time. As stated in the OP I fail to understand the reasoning behing most of the licenses. Great job bringing this issue up.

ekianjo 11y ago
Rent-seeking for the ones holding the licenses currently. Prevent market disruption as well.
programmarchy 11y ago
Why work long, hard, and fairly for your money when you can use the power of the state (a monopoly on violence) to raise prices by creating artificial scarcity for your labor (and beget another monopoly)?
- wavefunction 11y ago
  Ah, _you_ can be violent at any time. You can go get a gun with a five minute waiting period or go to the kitchen for a knife or find a blunt object and go be as violent as your pretty little heart desires. Of course the rest of us may react strongly to your violence but that is, of course, as it has always been. Your freedom to be violent ends where our freedom to be violent begins. Or perhaps you mean violence === an expectation of pro-social behavior.
  - programmarchy 11y ago
    That's not what I meant. Sorry for the sarcastic tone. I'm saying occupational licenses enforced by the state are a means of granting political privilege to a group of people, at the expense of another group (usually the poor) through the use of coercion, i.e. violence. This may sound dramatic, but it's true. Because if an unlicensed (non-privileged) person is operating in the market, even if they are reasonably qualified, they will still be targeted by the state on behalf of the licensed (privileged) lobby: First, the unlicensed person may be fined. If they refuse to pay the fine, they may receive a warrant. If they refuse to go to court, agents of the state will knock at their door, threaten to lock them in a cage for not paying their tribute, and ultimately use physical violence to force compliance.
    - crdoconnor 11y ago
      >at the expense of another group (usually the poor) Because hairdressers are some of the richest people you know? I'm kind of okay with them having some occupational barriers to entry, actually. It's not like they earn a lot anyway, and it makes up for some of the absolutely egregious and enormous political privileges granted to the 1% which are completely ignored both in this article and by the people commenting on it in this thread.
- tomc1985 11y ago
  As a customer, I want these people to be licensed. I don't mind paying more to know that they will do a good job. There's a big problem of money-chasing hacks that spend minimal effort learning the skills they need so they can claim the profession. I don't want these people doing my hair or fixing my plumbing or doing my electricity. Sometimes I wish software engineering had an effective credentialing mechanism (that isn't university), because there's a lot of idiots in this field.
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  Yet when the donors of the Brookings institute (like JP Morgan) create artificial scarcity massively in excess of what a hairdresser can do, that they can profit from, they can rely upon Brookings' silence.

liveoneggs 11y ago

this article makes a lot of broad assumptions ("If licensing an electrician is for public safety then...") and relatively shallow conclusions ("upholsterers need a license, wtf?") based on them. Full of weasels without a doubt.

Natsu 11y ago
Why did you cut off the quote? The full quote is: "If the rationale for licensing an electrician is to protect public safety, it is difficult to see what rationale supports licensing travel guides." Moreover, the assumptions they're making are charitable. I think most people agree with licensing engineers, electricians, doctors and the like where doing their job wrong has serious consequences. But for the same reason, it's less clear what public benefit there is behind requiring florists, interior designers or ballroom dancers to be licensed in order to practice their craft.

dm2 11y ago

Text only cache because site is broken at the moment: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:www.brookings.edu/blogs/up-front/posts/2015/01/26-time-to-examine-occupational-licensing-practices-kearney-hershbein-boddy&hl=en&gl=us&strip=1 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:www.bro...

latch 11y ago

An oldest economist article [1] that appeared on HN [2] opened my eyes to this issue. [1] http://www.economist.com/node/18678963?story_id=18678963&fsrc=rss http://www.economist.com/node/18678963?story_id=18678963&fsr... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2548399 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2548399

jdavis703 11y ago

Most of these licenses arise because the people practicing them wind up hurting, or even killing people. Examples include tour guides running over pedestrians while driving and entertaining [0]. Or software engineers writing code that has probably killed people [1], or "beauticians" being forced to work in near-slavery conditions [2], or professional drivers killing people [3]. 0. http://m.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/About-to-be-silenced-S-F-tour-bus-operators-not-6185055.php http://m.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/About-to-be-silenced-S-F... 1. http://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/pubs/koopman14_toyota_ua_slides.pdf http://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/pubs/koopman14_toyota_ua_s... 2. http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/05/18/nyregion/cuomo-to-offer-2-measures-to-improve-conditions-in-the-nail-salon-industry.html?referrer=&_r=0 http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/05/18/nyregion/cuomo-to-offer... 3. http://pando.com/2014/01/02/uber-driver-hits-kills-6-year-old-girl-is-not-our-problem-still-an-appropriate-response/ http://pando.com/2014/01/02/uber-driver-hits-kills-6-year-ol...

maratd 11y ago
> Most of these licenses arise because the people practicing them wind up hurting, or even killing people. Correction: Most of these licenses arise because those in the industry want to create a barrier to entry and use examples of morons doing their job poorly as evidence of need.
- ekianjo 11y ago
  Exactly. And I feel it's expanding rather than shrinking.
- nmrm2 11y ago
  Of course it's both. In many of these cases, the public has a strong enough interest to justify licensing requirements. E.g., it would be impractical to eliminate CDLs, licensing for food prep/barbers, etc. Once these licensing requirements exist, it's easier to justify increasing requirements as a way of increasing the barrier to entry.
- wfo 11y ago
  This "everyone is a moron we don't need regulations if everyone was a genius LIKE ME" attitude isn't particularly convincing. But it pervades this thread. It's full of people who can't imagine even the possibility that a regulation could be created for the good of people instead of with literally evil intent. If this is the new face of the anti-regulation side of the debate we've really reached a new low; it's not a debate anymore, it's rabid mindless religious extremism.

joe_the_user 11y ago

A lot of the examples seem to involve professions involving grooming people - barbers, manicurists, etc. While the required training amount might be out of line, it seems like some state supervision for these professions is needed because unhygienic or unsafe practices could serious consequences - ie, spreading disease. So this seems less totally insane than it might.

caseysoftware 11y ago
This is licensing based on paying fees and completing classes, not - as in health codes for restaurants - based on the cleanliness or safety of the work place.
- nmrm2 11y ago
  Most states require food prep employees to carry some form of food safety certification. Any additional checks are above and beyond this and other basic requirements. Of course, there's a good reason that both exist in food prep. Downgrading a restaurant only after the typhoid outbreak isn't really serving the best interest of the public. And continuous monitoring/enforcement is too expensive.
TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
Right. Licensing these professions is completely reasonable. But years of training and extortionate costs to acquire a license is nowhere near reasonable.

nostromo 11y ago

http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/06/22/155596305/episode-381-why-its-illegal-to-braid-hair-without-a-license http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/06/22/155596305/episo... > A few years ago, Jestina Clayton started a hair braiding business in her home in Centerville, Utah. The business let her stay home with her kids, and in good months, she made enough to pay for groceries. She even put an ad on a local website. Then one day she got an email from a stranger who had seen the ad. > "It is illegal in the state of Utah to do any form of extensions without a valid cosmetology license," the e-mail read. "Please delete your ad, or you will be reported." > To get a license, Jestina would have to spend more than a year in cosmetology school. Tuition would cost $16,000 dollars or more.

afarrell 11y ago
Texas just passed a law to remove this regulation https://www.texastribune.org/2015/06/08/after-18-years-good-hair-day-capitol/ https://www.texastribune.org/2015/06/08/after-18-years-good-...
sago 11y ago
> Tuition would cost $16,000 dollars or more. That was my first thought. How many of these licenses have formal requirements for university or college tuition. Given the money bleeding tactics of tertiary education, it wouldn't surprise me to find their grubby finger prints behind legislative action to prop up their monopoly over the workforce.

techbio 11y ago

License licenses license license.

tsomctl 11y ago

Although not directly related to the article, in some fields you just need to work under someone that has a contractors license. Many plumbers, electricians, builders, etc, aren't licensed, but they are employed by someone that is, and the owner of the company signs off on their work saying it is acceptable.

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago

Doing minimal safety training seems reasonable, I think. If it cost $200 to enter a profession, that wouldn't be so bad. But two years and $10,000? What planet do these legislators think they're on? (Licensingindustrylobbyus, probably)

ProAm 11y ago
It depends, to cut hair its no biggie, if you are dying/treating hair with chemicals than can burn the crap out of your skin I can easily see why this is required. We are litigious in the US, this is the cost of doing business.
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  > It depends, to cut hair its no biggie It's a little more dangerous than you might immediately think. You're working with sharp blades and hot objects. Edit: Oh, apparently, there's a serious risk of disease transmission. I hadn't considered that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2549477 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2549477
  - colordrops 11y ago
    That's still not years and thousands of dollars of training though.
  - dmix 11y ago
    Couldn't a private trusted 3rd-party company provide certification to verify my barber went to school for x or knows what he is doing? Why does the government need to charge outrageous fees under serious threat if they dont'? (Honest question) The concepts of trust in x organization is much clearer today thanks to the internet.
    - moonchrome 11y ago
      >Couldn't a private trusted 3rd-party company provide certification to verify my barber went to school for x or knows what he is doing? This is basically solved by franchising, but that also adds cost to the producer. But whatever model you chose it puts the responsibility of informing yourself about the safety of your options on the consumer. People like when their choices are "safe by default" so they like regulation, even if it doesn't accomplish what it states as long as it appears to be effective it's going to be supported. I can't really decide if that's bad or not, in most cases the safety will be there anyway and if it inspires the consumer confidence it allows the economy to function more efficiently.

marcusgarvey 11y ago

Funny. The Greek economy has been criticized by many economic commentators for also having this kind of "closed-shop" paradigm. Not sure what their percentage is in comparison to the U.S.

javajosh 11y ago

John Oliver rant about this in 3..2..1..

fiatmoney 11y ago

It's easy, but lazy, to look at regulations and say "this is obviously a bad idea." It's harder and more rewarding to think, "what are the forces that generate these regulations, and how can we change those forces?" One explanation is that they're oriented towards businesses that tend to be sole proprietorships with super low capital requirements - anyone can potentially start running tours or cutting hair or interior decorating, without even renting a storefront. So, those kinds of businesses have much more of an incentive to use legislation to restrict entry, rather than relying on more "inherent" economic barriers. Relatively speaking, they have a higher payoff to lobbying than, say, a pizzeria that needs to invest a lot in ovens, rent, and payroll - if you can afford those, you can afford to either take Pizza Making 101 under a licensing regime, or more realistically fight the licensing regime itself. How do you change that pattern given a democracy that responds to lobbying? Frankly I'm not sure, but trying to figure it out has a higher payoff than complaining about it.

humbledrone 11y ago
By your same reasoning, isn't it lazy of you to complain about the article rather than trying to understand the forces that generate these kinds of articles, and thinking about how to change those forces? But seriously, what's wrong with complaining? Maybe the author of the article doesn't have a good plan for fixing the problem, but what if one of their readers does? What if this "lazy complaining" article brought the issue to someone's attention who might not otherwise have thought about it, and that person has a great idea? I mean, obviously it would better if the author had root-caused the problem with the legislation and suggested a clever way to push it the other direction. But... they didn't. So what?
pakled_engineer 11y ago
They also lobby against family owned pizzerias through city hall. Many cities have air ventilation regulations for restaurants lobbied in as a barrier to entry, requiring they install an expensive ventilation system and all it takes is a major fast food chain on the same block as your family run restaurant quietly hiring a few stooges to go down to city hall and complain about the smell and the fines add up until you're forced out of the area.
11y ago

jwineinger 11y ago

http://fee.org/freeman/detail/does-occupational-licensing-protect-consumers http://fee.org/freeman/detail/does-occupational-licensing-pr... "[A]n Oregon board regulating cosmetology raised the number of training hours required for entry from 1,500 to 2,500. According to Cato Institute author David Young, pressure for the change came not from disgruntled cosmetology consumers but from beauty schools that were able to charge more tuition and serve more consumers in school training salons."

jphilip147 11y ago

Working in US is getting difficult for us.

deftnerd 11y ago

Something else of note is that the majority of occupational license requirements exclude felons. Sometimes they'll put verbiage into the law saying that once someone has completed the requirements they can petition the board for an exemption, but what person would put in 1000+ days for a license to cut hair without knowing if their work was for naught?

ccvannorman 11y ago

"The more plentiful the laws, the more corrupt the state." -Plato

logicchains 11y ago
"When there are many restrictions in the world The people become more impoverished The more laws are posted The more robbers and thieves there are" - Lao Tzu
_delirium 11y ago
I don't think Plato's critique there is necessarily getting at what you're intending. Plato is arguing that direct commands by a ruler are superior to written statute laws, because they allow for the use of good judgment and have less scope for bureaucratic idiocy and corruption than a lengthy statute book does. He's not against the state imposing restrictions on anyone, he just thinks it should be done by direct command of wise philosopher-kings, rather than by codified law. His system if anything quite strongly restricted what people could do in the economic sphere. The "producers" were one of the three classes kept strictly separate (the other two being warriors and rulers), and must follow the directions of the rulers, as enforced by the warriors, in order to ensure that production is in keeping with the needs and morals of the polis.

MrTonyD 11y ago

Brookings has a long history of very biased studies. They seem to decide the outcome first, and then carefully craft a study to get the desired outcome. And since Brookings is constantly advocating for less regulation and "free markets" - no matter the cost to society - I'm not surprised that they found some way to find that most people need licenses. Honestly, it isn't even worth my time to read the study to figure out how they gamed the data. I'm just posting this comment in case readers aren't familiar with Brookings reality distortions.

daniel-levin 11y ago
Can you substantiate your comment?

brohoolio 11y ago

Percentages might help. Out of the 30% how many are teachers, engineers, skills trades, doctors, nurses, etc? I'm guessing a ton of these positions everyone would shrug and say yes, I want my doctor to have a license. For the positions that might not be obvious why they require a license I wonder how many are because someone fucked up and caused a problem? Probably more than you might think. They generally just don't make rules up. So maybe 10% of jobs that require a license (3% of overall jobs) actually need to be addressed. You'd never know that reading this piece. Reading this piece you are left with a sense of outrage the government is bad, why are they messing with people blah blah blah instead of an actionable list. Let's fix the list, but realize that this is a political body writing this with specific goals probably paid for by a deep pocket interest.

steve19 11y ago
why does your teacher need a license? background check, sure, but license?
- rwmj 11y ago
  Individual private tutors (in the UK at least) need a background check if they teach children under 18, but not a license. Teachers of whole classrooms in schools need a QTS, which is a qualification demonstrating their skills as teachers. This seems reasonable since it gives a fairly simple way for parents and schools to evaluate whether a teacher is completely useless or not (but not that they are a great teacher - a license probably could never tell you that). I'm interested to know why you (I assume) think licensing teachers is a bad idea.
- kw71 11y ago
  My teacher needs a license to show that he has completed education that should make him competent, continues to maintain competency, and has not faced any questions of conduct or discipline which should rightfully deprive him of such license. I would like this strengthened to include that the individual is sound on a psychological or psychiatric level, since many teachers work with children. True story, I faced a lot of abuse during my childhood and so was in therapy to deal with it. Waiting to see the therapist one day, I got to stare down an abusive former teacher who happened to be in the waiting room, waiting for psychiatric services. Since her employer manages its own health insurance, they knew about this person's history of psychiatric problems because they paid the costs for her services. But the local teachers union has made it so that unless you actually rape a child during class, there's no chance of being fired from the school board.

makeitsuckless 11y ago

This has always baffled me about the US. Always complaining about the bureaucracy and lack of freedom of "socialist" countries, yet maintaining this absurd professional licensing that defies parody.

adventured 11y ago
People in the US complain about the lack of freedom and bureaucracy in the US as well, a lot. The US isn't a Capitalist, low tax, low regulation, small government system (and hasn't been in a very long time); it's a highly regulated welfare state, with mid-upper tier taxation. We have a total government system the size of Japan's entire economy. What else could come out of something that massive, other than extreme regulation, and eventual suffocation? It's not like they're just going to suddenly stop passing thousands of new regulations each year. The professional political class has nothing else to do, it's partially how they justify their existence.
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  >People in the US complain This article isn't 'people' complaining. It's a mouthpiece mainly for a group of select US corporations. You know they don't give two shits about hairdresser barriers to entry, either. Judging by the list of members, they want deregulation for the finance industry.
- _delirium 11y ago
  Licensing requirements and existence of a welfare state or high taxation are fairly different uses of government that don't necessarily go together. For example, Texas has low taxes and a poor welfare system, but is quite enthusiastic about licensing requirements.

tzs 11y ago

Out of curiosity, I took a look at the cosmetology program at the local community college [1] to see what's required. This program prepares students for the Washington State Cosmetology Licensing Exam. Before enrolling in the cosmetology program, you have to complete these courses (number in parenthesis is number of credits): Business and Personal Mathematics (5) Human Relations in the Workplace (3) English Composition (5) You can then enroll in the cosmetology program, which takes 5 quarters. Here are the first quarter courses: Professional Career (2) Cosmetology General Sciences (2) Hair Care, Hairstyling & Haircutting (3) Chemical Texture Services (2) Cosmetology Lab Clinic I (12) Second quarter: Hair Color (2) Intermediate Haircutting (2) Advanced Chemical Texture Services (2) Cosmetology Skin Care (2) Cosmetology Lab Clinic II (13) Third quarter: Intermediate Hair Color (2) Advanced Haircutting (2) Nail Care (1) Wigs, Braiding/Extensions (1) Cosmetology Lab Clinic III (13) Fourth quarter: Facial Makeup (1) Cosmetology Lab Clinic IV (13) Advanced Hair Coloring (2) Business Skills I (1) Fifth quarter: Cosmetology Lab Clinic V (13) Business Skills (1) State Board Preparation (4) I would not have guessed that many classes were needed. Tuition is $106.84/credit for Washington state residents. The above listed classes come to 109 credits, so $11645.56 tuition. [1] http://www.olympic.edu/cosmetology-ata-associate-technical-arts http://www.olympic.edu/cosmetology-ata-associate-technical-a...

cm2187 11y ago

It is very topical. Currently anyone can declare himself a software developer. That largely explains the number of sql injection vulnerabilities, unencrypted sensitive data, unintuitive software UI, unpatched servers, cross site scripting vulnerabilities, and other moronic software design decisions. For many years there was a sense that what is electronic doesn't matter. That breaking into someone's computer is at best a game while breaking into someone's home is a crime. That hacking and disrupting a power plant is an annoyance while bombing it is an act of war. But I think it is changing. Non-technical people now realise that software is massively important in our society, and the alarming pace of data breaches is giving a bad reputation to the industry. I think a system of licenses for developers is inevitable.

raverbashing 11y ago
The idea that licenses would solve that is naive at best and dangerous at worse I've known people with CS degrees and half of them would throw you a blank stare at those words > unintuitive software UI Most licensed engineers are guilty of this So make sure only those who have a magical paper and studied at fancy schools (where they probably will learn PHP, the basics of sql injection - oh wait, there are new vulnerabilities, but I don't have to worry about these because I didn't learn about them in school) can work on computing, I'm sure quality will shoot right up /s
- cm2187 11y ago
  Well, how was it solved in other industries? Licenses and norms. In the construction industry you can't just build a house. You have a pile of norms and regulations you have to comply with. Today anyone can open a website and start taking passwords. I'm not looking forward that but do you have a better solution? The way the industry currently works is unsustainable. And I am not even talking about privacy invasion.
  - raquo 11y ago
    Because if you build or design the smallest house improperly, it could collapse and kill people. If you build a crappy WordPress site nothing of similar consequence will happen.

normand1 11y ago

Anytime you purchase a permit for anything from the government you should stop and realize the government has confiscated your right to perform that task and it's selling your rights back to you.

jasonkester 11y ago

If you'd like to see the fantasy paradise that would exist if we abolished these foolish regulations, come to England some time. Then hire the first guy in the phone book who calls himself a "plumber". You would not believe the number of unnecessary holes in my house directly caused by a single plumber's mate (defined: guy willing to work for £8/hr) attempting to do his profession before we could physically remove him from the property. Same goes for "builder", and to an extent even "electrician." It's amazing to watch, coming from America where people are required to be qualified for their jobs.

switch007 11y ago
Don't get me started on tradespeople in England. My mum calls out random people to do jobs once in a while (plastering, carpentry/joinery, decoration, general DIY) and with the exception of one plumber, they have been low skilled, lazy and they did not care for doing a proper job. The worst thing is that even these idiots are in demand and struggle to return calls.
krrrh 11y ago
I've never lived in London, but I find this story intriguing, esp given the stories of the rigorous exams needed to become a black cab drive in Lomdon. I'd expect that there are private certifications or organizations that guarantee a certain level of competency. Otherwise some sort of review site for contractors like Angies list should either exist or be a massive opportunity in a market like you describe.
- justincormack 11y ago
  There are private certifications eg [1] and review sites eg [2]. [1] http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/find-an-electrician/ http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/find-an-electrician/ [2] http://www.mybuilder.com/ http://www.mybuilder.com/
pjc50 11y ago
Odd about electricians, because they're regulated with the whole "Part P" business that prevents you DIYing it.

crdoconnor 11y ago

NEVER read a think tank's opinion before checking out who funds them first: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brookings_Institution#Funders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brookings_Institution#Funders In this case, the fact that JP Morgan is a major funder should make you more than a little suspicious that they're proposing tearing down 'regulations'. When they try to convince you it's a good idea they talk about hairdressers. When they start writing bills to give to Congress it becomes about reducing capital requirements and deregulating derivatives.

randomname2 11y ago
Companies like JP Morgan love regulation. They have the regulators in their pocket and it helps keep out competition.
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  So explain why they are fighting tooth and nail to deregulate derivatives, if they love it so much.

randomname2 11y ago

Just as a comparison, in the 1950s, only 5% of workers needed a government license to work.

adrianhoward 11y ago

I'm a licensed CSSTWP http://csstwp.com/ http://csstwp.com/ ;-)

tkyjonathan 11y ago

This is probably a good thing.. mainly for people to have job security.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

walshemj 11y ago

That's the problem with having 52 states having many smaller decentralised legislatures makes it much easier for low level corruption to exist. Look at the dodgy court in Texas the "specialises" in patent law and the cases of tiny hamlets with massive police forces and speed traps.

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randomname2 11y ago

Interesting tidbit: The Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation surveyed over 12,000 small business owners in 38 states and 82 metropolitan regions to determine how friendly cities and states are towards small businesses. Licensing was “the most important regulatory issue” and “second only to the strength of the local economy in determining how friendly a state is to small business.”