10 ms·

An $89 remanufactured Ubuntu workstation

311 points by capgre 12y ago

kogepathic 12y ago
From the photo it looks like they're using BTX motherboards (unless as the fine print states, the final version is different). Also I hope that they're aware of which Intel chipsets contain PowerVR graphics and steer clear of selling any systems with those. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_graphics_processing_units#PowerVR_based https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_graphics_process...
- dangerlibrary 12y ago
  For those of us who don't know: why would they need to steer clear of PowerVR graphics chips?
  - JosephRedfern 12y ago
    from disclaimers import IANAL I'm not sure, but it could be something to do with: http://libv.livejournal.com/26972.html http://libv.livejournal.com/26972.html. Basically, proprietary PowerVR graphics chip driver source was leaked. Anyone who has read the leaked code is considered "tainted" and is unable to contribute to the open-soruce, cleanroom implementation alternative PowerVR drivers. It generally makes it difficult for ANYONE to develop open-source PowerVR drivers, as their lawyers could argue that they had seen the leaked source code and copied it (regardless of whether or not that fact is true).
    - fifthesteight 12y ago
      holy hell an active livejournal link. that's amazing. i thought G.R.R.Martin was the only remaining user.
  - pipeep 12y ago
    Intel does a good job producing and supporting their open source graphics drivers. The PowerVR chips aren't designed by Intel, so they don't receive the same level of support.
  - Sanddancer 12y ago
    The PowerVR chips on Intel platforms came in binary blobs, and were only supported in a few fairly specific configurations. As such, they were obsolete almost as soon as they were released, with little to no support. Thankfully, though, they only put PowerVR chips in their Atom boards for a fairly short period of time, so you won't have to worry about them in these machines.
- listic 12y ago
  I'm not sure whether it's actually possible to run Ubuntu on these?
smhenderson 12y ago
All the specs say "or faster", "or more", etc. but I can't see a way to change the specs on purchase. Their common questions does have this question: "Can I upgrade the hardware in it?" with the answer being "Absolutely, hack away! We have had folks put solid state drives in, or take the drives out all together..." So maybe they just mean it's capable of being upgraded but they don't do it for you at point of sale.
- jonrx 12y ago
  From what I understand, they guarantee a minimum spec -- but depending on the pieces at hand, they might give you something better.
- Sanddancer 12y ago
  They're a remanufacturer, and probably work with a lot of off-lease computers and the like. The $89 price point suggests they're taking 7-8 year old dells and the like, testing them to make sure they work, and putting them in a snazzy new case. So, some machines may be loaded with new ram, some may have faster processors, etc. It's a bit of a lottery, but with a nicer warranty than the 90 days you get with most off-lease stuff.
  - smhenderson 12y ago
    Thanks, to you and jonrx both. I did not get that from my quick perusal of thier site.
jkot 12y ago
And people pay $80 for this? ARM device from China will be cheaper, smaller,more power efficient and will run Ubuntu just as fine. > 2.8Ghz P4 or better CPU (pentium 4 is very very green) > 80GB SATA HD (spin it yeah, Ubuntu comfortably fits to 5GB) > VGA port ???
- jiggy2011 12y ago
  x86 still has more software available and the option to run Windows.
  - mark-r 12y ago
    The Windows license will cost more than the PC. Unless you want to run a cracked version, it isn't worth it.
- pmontra 12y ago
  Plenty of TVs and monitors still have a VGA port, so that's not a surprise. Furthermore this is basically a PC from 10 years ago and not a top notch one (I'm looking to HD, CPU and network card - I had a laptop with 10/100/1000). It's interesting that you can still run a 2014 OS on that hardware. There is probably some value in using an Intel chip instead of an ARM one even if I bet that most Linux software runs on ARM too (all my Linux boxes are x86_64).
  - melling 12y ago
    People never stop making excuses. VGA is dead. http://www.raspberrypi.org/help/faqs/#videoVGA http://www.raspberrypi.org/help/faqs/#videoVGA
    - puzzlingcaptcha 12y ago
      It's so dead that I had to separately buy a VGA adapter for my laptop, so I could use the bloody conference projectors everywhere.
blueatlas 12y ago
I don't see a WiFi option. My first thought was to use this for our stand-up desks which may or may not be near a wired port.
- eam 12y ago
  Based on the photo, it seems it has plenty of USB's, you can probably just purchase a WiFi adapter.
udev 12y ago
Amazing price point. Are the computer parts refurbished? Otherwise I wonder where do you get 2GB RAM, 80GB HDD, and other older components at good prices these days? Usually, parts get cheaper as the become replaced by newer versions, but then become expensive again.
- pjc50 12y ago
  Yes, they're clearly reused parts from PCs that have been end-of-lifed by corporates. Edit: If you're in the UK and happen to want a supply of EOL computers, I suggest Morgan Computers, e.g. http://www.morgancomputers.co.uk/product_detail/14905/HP-Elite-8000-USFF-PC-Core-2-Duo-3-16GHz-2GB-250GB-DVD-Windows-7-Pro/ http://www.morgancomputers.co.uk/product_detail/14905/HP-Eli...
  - alex_hitchins 12y ago
    Morgan Computers! I bought a few bits from them nearly 15 years ago. Good to see they are still in business, I'd have thought eBay would have finished them off.
- proveanegative 12y ago
  >Amazing price point. Is it really? It seems in line with eBay/Craigslist prices for similar hardware, expect for the "remanufactured" part.
  - zerohm 12y ago
    Try getting all those old parts to a facility, test them, assemble a consistent product, and get it out the door. Their efficiency in doing that is their value proposition.
    - proveanegative 12y ago
      Just to be clear, I didn't mean the price point of the parts if you bought them separately and assembled them yourself. (My bet is they'd cost you more that way, if only because of the shipping/gas expenses.) What I meant was the price you'd pay when buying a P4-era PC whole when it is sold as working by the previous owner or a small reseller. I agree with you on the testing; if it's rigorous enough that will likely the biggest sale point.
vittore 12y ago
Funny we where doing something similar but giving it away for free to school kids in Trenton.
egd 12y ago
They're cheap enough that my first thought was to pick up a couple and figure out what I'd do with them later, but the disadvantage here is that they're older boxes, which means they're going to be energy hogs (for the performance point, at least). That's what makes the eco pitch interesting - they're reducing e-waste, which is good, but energy efficiency on newer boxes (especially if you just need minimal performance) is worlds better than what these are offering. On the one hand, the recycling is great, but on the other hand, it's like putting a 1953 Chevy back on the road - sure, we didn't have to manufacture another one, but it still might not be the best thing for the environment.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- dorfsmay 12y ago
  I agree, I love the concept, but you also have to add the cost of a monitor + keyboard + mouse AND the fact that everybody wants (needs?) a laptop these days.
  - wernercd 12y ago
    "you also have to add the cost of a monitor + keyboard + mouse AND the fact that everybody wants (needs?) a laptop these days." Not really... with RDP/SSH/Telnet/etc, you can access this without the need a dedicated keyboard/mouse/monitor. Also, I can live without a laptop due to my "phablet". I already have a desktop. Something like this would be a good for hiding a server (or two) somewhere. The question is... the energy saved by reusing this. The energy saved by not destroying this. The landfill space not taken up by this... Is it enough to offset the energy savings on newer pc's that are more powerful but use less energy? What is the tipping point that makes a new machine better?
    - chrisBob 12y ago
      >with RDP/SSH/Telnet/etc, you can access this without the need a dedicated keyboard/mouse/monitor. I think the target is to make this the terminal. I don't see too many people going out of their way to remote into a low spec machine like this.
sktrdie 12y ago
There are android mini pcs with Android OSs, much larger selection of apps/games, for less than half that price. They can easily be found for ~$35 http://www.laptopmag.com/android-sticks http://www.laptopmag.com/android-sticks
- bpicolo 12y ago
  Saying Ubuntu has fewer "apps and games" than Android is both meaningless and false.
  - jkot 12y ago
    Some of those sticks run Ubuntu as well.
listic 12y ago
I wonder how anyone makes use of Ubuntu for even just 'web work' with just 2GB RAM. The browsers are becoming ever more bloated; I know I had swap issues on my non-SSD laptop before I upgraded from 4 to 8. Right now it uses 3.3 with 9 Chrome tabs open, an IM client, gedit and terminal. It's unfortunate, of course, because 4GB of older DDR1/DDR2 memory would be much more tough to find/expensive than 2.
- hayksaakian 12y ago
  Hey! I do this. I'm still using a 10 inch netbook running Ubuntu for my typical web work (waiting for a retina macbook air). You can't really watch videos or use flash without feeling the slowdown. As long as you stay under 10-20 tabs you're fine. Running an IDE is out of the question, but sublime text does fine (probably more of a CPU limitation). AMA I guess?
- gtk40 12y ago
  I regularly use a netbook with 1GB of RAM (Dell Mini 9). It's on #! (I know, I might need to look for an alternative), which uses Openbox, but I have no problems with web surfing as long as I max at about 5 tabs. I also don't use a lot of web apps. With HTML5 video, videos work well enough. I can even run Eclipse if nothing else is open without too many problems, although for development work on it I'm usually using RDP. Edit: I'll add I use Firefox on it. I find on Windows and Linux that Chrome takes up quite a bit more RAM than the alternatives. I use IE11 on my Windows machine with 4GB which I am using now, because Chrome would eat away my memory with the same usage.
  - listic 12y ago
    Well, they don't use #!
    - GhotiFish 12y ago
      It's unfortunate we teach young designers like this, I agree.
    - gtk40 12y ago
jkot 12y ago
I am concerned with energy consumption of this device. Pentium 4 class computer consumes 40 watts while idle. ARM cpu would work just as fine (Ubuntu). I think this devices should not be called green, unless they disclose power efficiency rating.
- midnightclubbed 12y ago
  I was thinking the same thing. The increased power usage (over something like an ARM based Chromebook) is probably easily offset by the power needed to manufacture new but from a cost perspective to the user it may be a false-economy (assuming the machines are in use 24/7). You also have the power consumption of the VGA monitor to contend with. Are they remanufacturing in the USA?
  - jkot 12y ago
    > over something like an ARM based Chromebook) is probably easily offset by the power needed to manufacture I doubt it. Manufactoring cost for ARM SOC is $10, this thing burns it in a month.
    - holri 12y ago
      He is talking about power not cost to build it.
      - cwyers 12y ago
        Cost to build likely includes the cost of power, no? In other words, if building an ARM SoC costs $10, the electricity cost in the ARM SoC is under $10, so if you save $10 in electricity by running the ARM SoC, then you've offset the cost of the energy used in manufacturing.
        holri 12y ago
        Energy is dirt cheap in comparison to labor. Therefore cost of industrial goods is correlated to labor not to energy / power costs. (with few exceptions in heavy industries.)
cubano 12y ago
While I like the direction they are taking, I am still kinda scratching my head at the use cases. Seniors who need a basic websurfer with malware proctection? [edit] I guess third-world users too, but like others have remarked, the power consumption is pretty brutal.
- robotresearcher 12y ago
  From the first paragraph of their blurb: "Symple PC gives classroom labs, non-profits and call centers a..." They are aiming it at cost-sensitive groups that need to buy a bunch of workstations.
  - gtirloni 12y ago
    Those people have all the incentives of scale to want low-power computers instead.
nsnick 12y ago
So is this targeted at the third world?
3327 12y ago
The case is way too big for what it is...
sjs382 12y ago
At what point is it more planet-friendly to manufacture a new energy-efficient underpowered low-end PC, rather than repurpose an old power-hungry low-end PC?
- TheCowboy 12y ago
  It's a good but difficult question to answer if one wants to break into the details of it. The process of manufacturing all of the components likely results externalities that are represented in the price. There is also the cost of how the disposed machine is processed. You can also factor in the user behaviors. My grandmother probably is not going to leave her desktop powered on for longer than the 1 hour or so per day that she might use it. People here, myself included, are probably used to running their machines 24-7. There's also the perspective that if this machine is going to a 10 year old kid, that it's a machine s/he can break and it won't be a big deal. This can be a significant advantage for a low income home.
- polshaw 12y ago
  I think it really depends on what you mean by 'a low end PC'.. if you mean a full desktop with an extensible (PCIe etc) motherboard.. I believe the answer is... way after you'd ever want to use the old PC[1]. But if you're moving towards the something in the vein of the Raspberry Pi, much sooner. 1. http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fiel5%2F9100%2F28876%2F01299692.pdf&authDecision=-203 http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=http%3A%2F%2...
- notatoad 12y ago
  I don't know about more planet friendly, but just in terms of dollars, if you're paying for your own electricity getting a modern desktop for $200 is more economical after a couple months.
kolev 12y ago
If had no fan, I'd buy one for my kids.
- ashark 12y ago
  I recently bought a Raspberry Pi 2, a nicer case than I really needed, a 64GB sdhc card, and a good power supply for not more than one of these cost. Going with a smaller SD card and a less-nice case you'd easily save enough to cover a breakout breadboard for the GPIO and maybe a couple of sensors. Judging from its performance I suspect the original Pi would have disappointed me and been nearly useless for anything I might wanted to do with it, but the Pi2's a nice little device. It's silent and it sips power. The support and software ecosystem around it is well worth a few extra bucks over similar devices (the first time it saves you even 30 minutes of hair-pulling frustration, which likely won't be long after you open the box, you'll be glad you went with a Pi)
  - kolev 12y ago
    That's what I did, too. I want to create a Pi 2 blade server and use it for local docker PaaS (for builds, running tests, etc.), but can't find a good case for that. The dog bone one takes too much space and is too generic.
    - ashark 12y ago
      You mean the stackable dog bone-shaped ones? They don't look that big to me, but maybe the pictures don't do them justice. I'm not sure whether it'd be appropriate for what you want, but this is the case I bought: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ME5XUAG/ http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ME5XUAG/ I'm happy with it, and I can't really imagine a case being any smaller and still protecting the Pi while providing access to its various ports (including the SD card). I'm not really into the see-through case thing, but I couldn't find an opaque case I liked better for the same amount of money or less.
      - kolev 12y ago
        I mean something like this [0], but more efficient as you need an outer enclosure only. Blade-server like would be idea (where the Pis are vertical) with some more efficient Ethernet cabling to connect them to a switch. [0] http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MYFAAPO/?tag=nikolay-20 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MYFAAPO/?tag=nikolay-20
q2 12y ago
Focus on environment friendliness is laudable and required. But it seems this is similar to other vendors such as Dell for example. recycling: http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/uscorp1/dell-environment-recycling?c=us&l=en&s=corp&cs=uscorp1 http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/uscorp1/dell-environment-rec... Packaging: http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/uscorp1/dell-environment-packaging-and-shipping?c=us&l=en&s=corp&cs=uscorp1 http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/uscorp1/dell-environment-pac... >>> Symple PC runs the open source Ubuntu Linux operating system and doesn't require you to give your data to a company you may or may not trust. How is this possible? It has ethernet connection and so it is possible to connect to internet and thus same as any other interconnected device. How this machine will be more trustworthy than other PC's/phones? >>> cost of $89 Following dell[1] at 500 GB hard disk is at $229. It can work safely for at least 2 years and if we go by advanced replacement warranty of in this case, symple comes to around $170. So price-wise it is not much different but configuration of 80 GB HDD is just too small. [1] http://www.dell.com/us/p/inspiron-3646-small-desktop/pd?oc=fddont7101h&model_id=inspiron-3646-small-desktop http://www.dell.com/us/p/inspiron-3646-small-desktop/pd?oc=f...
- zevyoura 12y ago
  I believe the part about not sharing data is in comparison to Chrome OS.
- kbart 12y ago
  "Symple PC runs the open source Ubuntu Linux operating system and doesn't require you to give your data to a company you may or may not trust." So did they disable Ubuntu's shopping lens[1] that's enabled by default and callbacks to a server every time you enter something in dash? 1. https://www.unixmen.com/disable-unity-online-search-feature-ubuntu-14-10/ https://www.unixmen.com/disable-unity-online-search-feature-...
aruggirello 12y ago
Love the concept. BTW I'm about to start a new linux-friendly hardware shop here in Italy (more geared towards laptops and desktop workstations - any suggestions?) - it's refreshing to see Symple did this!
stcredzero 12y ago
You can also pick up a Thinkpad T400 laptop on ebay for about that amount. (Has absolutely crap video hardware, but plenty good for web development and educational purposes.)
- mediumdave 12y ago
  I have a couple T61s from Ebay that I got for my kids. I've been using one of them for some development work, and I've been surprised at how well they work for that purpose --- as in, I could easily use one for my day to day work. Put an old SSD in one, install Linux, and you have a very nice machine.
  - stcredzero 12y ago
    I bought a Thinkpad x220 tablet off ebay as a "poor man's Cintiq" and put an old SSD in it. The thing is like a developer Swiss Army Knife. I can use the very nice keyboard for real programming work. I can use the Wacom stylus for pixel art and graphics. Makes me think that Apple is aiming at dominating the common-person's "workstation" form factor, while Lenovo is aiming more squarely at guys like us.
- polshaw 12y ago
  For value in a used linux laptop nothing beats an Acer C710(~$60+)/C720(~$100); they'd beat the T400 or a 2.8ghz P4 (by a mile in total system performance), with an SSD and HDMI output, all while giving you >6hrs battery life and USB3 in the case of the 720. IIRC the iGPU's in the T400 era don't do webGL.
  - stcredzero 12y ago
    IIRC the iGPU's in the T400 era don't do webGL. They are indeed close to the worst integrated GPUs ever made.
sliverstorm 12y ago
On the subject of power-efficiency... if you do not need high performance, the power-per-performance improvements in modern chips are not important, and you are missing out only on power-per-time thanks to huge leaps in idle power. So, what if you put a classroom full of students on dumb terminals all connected to one or two of these? In other words, isn't it true that the more maximally utilized these old boxes are, the less their idle power deficiencies matter?
dankohn1 12y ago
I have started switching our customer service staff to Chromeboxes (specifically, the Asus model below). However, we've found that 2 GB does not provide acceptable performance once you open more than half a dozen tabs. We've been upgrading all machines to 4 GB and have found that performance is significantly snappier than the low end Windows boxes we were using. And, of course, we love not having to worry about upgrades, anti-virus, backups. etc. Even the Symple would require us to manually upgrade the Ubuntu OS eventually. http://www.amazon.com/Asus-CHROMEBOX-M004U-ASUS-Desktop/dp/B00IT1WJZQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1425322129&sr=1-1&keywords=chromebox http://www.amazon.com/Asus-CHROMEBOX-M004U-ASUS-Desktop/dp/B...
Animats 12y ago
There's an outfit in Oakland which does this.[1] They're a computer recycling center which assembles working systems from the recycled ones. They currently offer minimum specs of at least 2GB of RAM, 80GB HDD, DVD-ROM and 17” monitor. They install Linux XUBUNTU 14.0.1. The machines are free to schools, non-profits, and low-income people. There was a similar organization in Berkeley which installed Windows. They had a deal with Microsoft which allowed them to do this. But I think that ended with Windows XP. [1] http://www.ewastecollective.org http://www.ewastecollective.org
- jstanek 12y ago
  There's an organization in Minneapolis which does a similar thing. It's called Free Geek Twin Cities, and they recycle old PCs and put Ubuntu on them. It's about $40 for a computer, or one can earn one by volunteering for 24 hours. I used to volunteer there when I was less busy.
  - heywire 12y ago
    Adding another similar organization: www.reglue.org
  - johnpowell 12y ago
    When I first moved to Portland I volunteered at Free Geek. But it was mostly because I didn't know anyone and it seemed like a good way to make like-minded people. It worked.
    - semi-extrinsic 12y ago
      You tried making people and it worked? Did you use the standard trick for making people, or is this more revolutionary?
batrat 12y ago
10/100 Ethernet... why not GbE port? i would love to have something like this in my homelab, but the Ethernet port (for me) is rather limited.
- notatoad 12y ago
  Because they aren't setting the spec sheet, they're selling refurb computers from it departments, and most of those were originally specced with 10/100
happycube 12y ago
IMO the cutoff needs to be Core 2 Duo tech (even Celeron versions) or any AMD64 chip. Pentium 4 Prescotts, which their spec implies could be used, are awful and inefficient chips. (Heck, I told people not to buy them when they were new!)
- polshaw 12y ago
  Agreed, the late P4's check the box when it comes to performance, but they are right at the worst point possible in terms of power consumption, the next gen (I would include CoreDuo, or P4 era A64) are vastly more appealing because of that. I'm sure there are many of those CPUs involved in some of these PCs; why not offer a CD+ (or even 'no P4') guarantee for +$10 or so?
  - yuhong 12y ago
    Or at least Cedar Mill/Presler, which is an easy drop-in replacement in most LGA775 motherboards. It is unfortunate that Conroe is not.
BorisMelnik 12y ago
very nice. would love to see an SSD option for slightly more, which would decrease the size, power & shipping weight and speed up the overall benchmark.
patcheudor 12y ago
"Data control by large corporations and government agencies is a tangible concern. Our Symple PC represents another, environmentally intelligent and privacy-aware path. It is one of the most planet-friendly PCs in the world. The case is made from recycled ABS plastic, the parts are recycled..." Hold on, hold on. They are directly marketing this solution to call centers, non-profits, etc., claiming it's "privacy-conscious" yet it utilizes recycled components which by their nature are from unknown sources. There is no chain of custody for recycled components. As such, do they have a lab which is verifying the firmware of any of those recycled components haven't been tampered with in a way which will result in a breach of privacy? If they do, that's cool but I'd think it would add significantly to the cost. This has been a major challenge in the re-use space for years as it's possible to tamper with firmware on motherboards, hard-drives, and network cards in a way which breaches privacy, independent of the operating system. I get the whole reuse thing, it's cool, but I'd be very cautious about making binding claims as to either the privacy or security of devices using recycled components which can be re-flashed.
- Shank 12y ago
  No offense, but tampering with firmware on motherboards, hard drives, and network cards to breach privacy sounds more like NSA/EquationGroup/TAO, not parts recycling centers. Unless you're implying that we should be checking every component for NSA tampering, I'd need some solid statistics to back up the idea that firmware backdoors are suddenly commonplace from refurbished/recycled computer parts.
  - patcheudor 12y ago
    NSA/EquationGroup is just in the news right now. There have been growing concerns about UEFI for years as well as a lack of reporting. Note this from Dick Wilkins UEFI report: "Examples come from Intel, Microsoft, Mitre, NIST, Linux distros and others. Some are public and some are available only under NDA via direct communications with the involved companies." Is it likely to be seen in the wild often? Likely not, but that's not the point. If it's seen more than once, then you have a problem if you build an entire business selling "trusted platforms" based on recycled equipment. At that point, expect your claims to be busted. What happens the first time someone actually finds a confirmed trojan in a firmware component of a product they sell? It doesn't matter if it is legitimate or a plant, it will reverberate through the news cycle like Lenovo-Superfish and the damage will be done. This isn't to say this business model is a bust. Just be very cautious about claiming it supports privacy. There are plenty of educational scenarios where hardware which has been compromised would be of no issue. http://www.uefi.org/sites/default/files/resources/2014_UEFI_Plugfest_06_Phoenix.pdf http://www.uefi.org/sites/default/files/resources/2014_UEFI_...
Eleutheria 12y ago
I bought a mac mini in 2011 and swore to god I would never buy a huge case ever again for no reason whatsoever. Sorry guys, make it smaller and I may bite.
erose 12y ago
Add the fact they they have to be shipped to the long, long, list of the reasons this is a bad idea. I'm surprised so many people were fooled by the marketing materials.
p1mrx 12y ago
Hopefully they're not selling the Athlon XP series. While they seem like perfectly-capable x86 CPUs at first glance, they're no longer compatible with software that requires SSE2, like Chrome and Flash.

311 points by capgre 12y ago

From the photo it looks like they're using BTX motherboards (unless as the fine print states, the final version is different). Also I hope that they're aware of which Intel chipsets contain PowerVR graphics and steer clear of selling any systems with those. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_graphics_processing_units#PowerVR_based https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_graphics_process...

dangerlibrary 12y ago
For those of us who don't know: why would they need to steer clear of PowerVR graphics chips?
- JosephRedfern 12y ago
  from disclaimers import IANAL I'm not sure, but it could be something to do with: http://libv.livejournal.com/26972.html http://libv.livejournal.com/26972.html. Basically, proprietary PowerVR graphics chip driver source was leaked. Anyone who has read the leaked code is considered "tainted" and is unable to contribute to the open-soruce, cleanroom implementation alternative PowerVR drivers. It generally makes it difficult for ANYONE to develop open-source PowerVR drivers, as their lawyers could argue that they had seen the leaked source code and copied it (regardless of whether or not that fact is true).
  - fifthesteight 12y ago
    holy hell an active livejournal link. that's amazing. i thought G.R.R.Martin was the only remaining user.
- pipeep 12y ago
  Intel does a good job producing and supporting their open source graphics drivers. The PowerVR chips aren't designed by Intel, so they don't receive the same level of support.
- Sanddancer 12y ago
  The PowerVR chips on Intel platforms came in binary blobs, and were only supported in a few fairly specific configurations. As such, they were obsolete almost as soon as they were released, with little to no support. Thankfully, though, they only put PowerVR chips in their Atom boards for a fairly short period of time, so you won't have to worry about them in these machines.
listic 12y ago
I'm not sure whether it's actually possible to run Ubuntu on these?

smhenderson 12y ago

All the specs say "or faster", "or more", etc. but I can't see a way to change the specs on purchase. Their common questions does have this question: "Can I upgrade the hardware in it?" with the answer being "Absolutely, hack away! We have had folks put solid state drives in, or take the drives out all together..." So maybe they just mean it's capable of being upgraded but they don't do it for you at point of sale.

jonrx 12y ago
From what I understand, they guarantee a minimum spec -- but depending on the pieces at hand, they might give you something better.
Sanddancer 12y ago
They're a remanufacturer, and probably work with a lot of off-lease computers and the like. The $89 price point suggests they're taking 7-8 year old dells and the like, testing them to make sure they work, and putting them in a snazzy new case. So, some machines may be loaded with new ram, some may have faster processors, etc. It's a bit of a lottery, but with a nicer warranty than the 90 days you get with most off-lease stuff.
- smhenderson 12y ago
  Thanks, to you and jonrx both. I did not get that from my quick perusal of thier site.

jkot 12y ago

And people pay $80 for this? ARM device from China will be cheaper, smaller,more power efficient and will run Ubuntu just as fine. > 2.8Ghz P4 or better CPU (pentium 4 is very very green) > 80GB SATA HD (spin it yeah, Ubuntu comfortably fits to 5GB) > VGA port ???

jiggy2011 12y ago
x86 still has more software available and the option to run Windows.
- mark-r 12y ago
  The Windows license will cost more than the PC. Unless you want to run a cracked version, it isn't worth it.
pmontra 12y ago
Plenty of TVs and monitors still have a VGA port, so that's not a surprise. Furthermore this is basically a PC from 10 years ago and not a top notch one (I'm looking to HD, CPU and network card - I had a laptop with 10/100/1000). It's interesting that you can still run a 2014 OS on that hardware. There is probably some value in using an Intel chip instead of an ARM one even if I bet that most Linux software runs on ARM too (all my Linux boxes are x86_64).
- melling 12y ago
  People never stop making excuses. VGA is dead. http://www.raspberrypi.org/help/faqs/#videoVGA http://www.raspberrypi.org/help/faqs/#videoVGA
  - puzzlingcaptcha 12y ago
    It's so dead that I had to separately buy a VGA adapter for my laptop, so I could use the bloody conference projectors everywhere.

blueatlas 12y ago

I don't see a WiFi option. My first thought was to use this for our stand-up desks which may or may not be near a wired port.

eam 12y ago
Based on the photo, it seems it has plenty of USB's, you can probably just purchase a WiFi adapter.

udev 12y ago

Amazing price point. Are the computer parts refurbished? Otherwise I wonder where do you get 2GB RAM, 80GB HDD, and other older components at good prices these days? Usually, parts get cheaper as the become replaced by newer versions, but then become expensive again.

pjc50 12y ago
Yes, they're clearly reused parts from PCs that have been end-of-lifed by corporates. Edit: If you're in the UK and happen to want a supply of EOL computers, I suggest Morgan Computers, e.g. http://www.morgancomputers.co.uk/product_detail/14905/HP-Elite-8000-USFF-PC-Core-2-Duo-3-16GHz-2GB-250GB-DVD-Windows-7-Pro/ http://www.morgancomputers.co.uk/product_detail/14905/HP-Eli...
- alex_hitchins 12y ago
  Morgan Computers! I bought a few bits from them nearly 15 years ago. Good to see they are still in business, I'd have thought eBay would have finished them off.
proveanegative 12y ago
>Amazing price point. Is it really? It seems in line with eBay/Craigslist prices for similar hardware, expect for the "remanufactured" part.
- zerohm 12y ago
  Try getting all those old parts to a facility, test them, assemble a consistent product, and get it out the door. Their efficiency in doing that is their value proposition.
  - proveanegative 12y ago
    Just to be clear, I didn't mean the price point of the parts if you bought them separately and assembled them yourself. (My bet is they'd cost you more that way, if only because of the shipping/gas expenses.) What I meant was the price you'd pay when buying a P4-era PC whole when it is sold as working by the previous owner or a small reseller. I agree with you on the testing; if it's rigorous enough that will likely the biggest sale point.

vittore 12y ago

Funny we where doing something similar but giving it away for free to school kids in Trenton.

egd 12y ago

They're cheap enough that my first thought was to pick up a couple and figure out what I'd do with them later, but the disadvantage here is that they're older boxes, which means they're going to be energy hogs (for the performance point, at least). That's what makes the eco pitch interesting - they're reducing e-waste, which is good, but energy efficiency on newer boxes (especially if you just need minimal performance) is worlds better than what these are offering. On the one hand, the recycling is great, but on the other hand, it's like putting a 1953 Chevy back on the road - sure, we didn't have to manufacture another one, but it still might not be the best thing for the environment.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
dorfsmay 12y ago
I agree, I love the concept, but you also have to add the cost of a monitor + keyboard + mouse AND the fact that everybody wants (needs?) a laptop these days.
- wernercd 12y ago
  "you also have to add the cost of a monitor + keyboard + mouse AND the fact that everybody wants (needs?) a laptop these days." Not really... with RDP/SSH/Telnet/etc, you can access this without the need a dedicated keyboard/mouse/monitor. Also, I can live without a laptop due to my "phablet". I already have a desktop. Something like this would be a good for hiding a server (or two) somewhere. The question is... the energy saved by reusing this. The energy saved by not destroying this. The landfill space not taken up by this... Is it enough to offset the energy savings on newer pc's that are more powerful but use less energy? What is the tipping point that makes a new machine better?
  - chrisBob 12y ago
    >with RDP/SSH/Telnet/etc, you can access this without the need a dedicated keyboard/mouse/monitor. I think the target is to make this the terminal. I don't see too many people going out of their way to remote into a low spec machine like this.

sktrdie 12y ago

There are android mini pcs with Android OSs, much larger selection of apps/games, for less than half that price. They can easily be found for ~$35 http://www.laptopmag.com/android-sticks http://www.laptopmag.com/android-sticks

bpicolo 12y ago
Saying Ubuntu has fewer "apps and games" than Android is both meaningless and false.
- jkot 12y ago
  Some of those sticks run Ubuntu as well.

listic 12y ago

I wonder how anyone makes use of Ubuntu for even just 'web work' with just 2GB RAM. The browsers are becoming ever more bloated; I know I had swap issues on my non-SSD laptop before I upgraded from 4 to 8. Right now it uses 3.3 with 9 Chrome tabs open, an IM client, gedit and terminal. It's unfortunate, of course, because 4GB of older DDR1/DDR2 memory would be much more tough to find/expensive than 2.

hayksaakian 12y ago
Hey! I do this. I'm still using a 10 inch netbook running Ubuntu for my typical web work (waiting for a retina macbook air). You can't really watch videos or use flash without feeling the slowdown. As long as you stay under 10-20 tabs you're fine. Running an IDE is out of the question, but sublime text does fine (probably more of a CPU limitation). AMA I guess?
gtk40 12y ago
I regularly use a netbook with 1GB of RAM (Dell Mini 9). It's on #! (I know, I might need to look for an alternative), which uses Openbox, but I have no problems with web surfing as long as I max at about 5 tabs. I also don't use a lot of web apps. With HTML5 video, videos work well enough. I can even run Eclipse if nothing else is open without too many problems, although for development work on it I'm usually using RDP. Edit: I'll add I use Firefox on it. I find on Windows and Linux that Chrome takes up quite a bit more RAM than the alternatives. I use IE11 on my Windows machine with 4GB which I am using now, because Chrome would eat away my memory with the same usage.
- listic 12y ago
  Well, they don't use #!
  - GhotiFish 12y ago
    It's unfortunate we teach young designers like this, I agree.
  - gtk40 12y ago

jkot 12y ago

I am concerned with energy consumption of this device. Pentium 4 class computer consumes 40 watts while idle. ARM cpu would work just as fine (Ubuntu). I think this devices should not be called green, unless they disclose power efficiency rating.

midnightclubbed 12y ago
I was thinking the same thing. The increased power usage (over something like an ARM based Chromebook) is probably easily offset by the power needed to manufacture new but from a cost perspective to the user it may be a false-economy (assuming the machines are in use 24/7). You also have the power consumption of the VGA monitor to contend with. Are they remanufacturing in the USA?
- jkot 12y ago
  > over something like an ARM based Chromebook) is probably easily offset by the power needed to manufacture I doubt it. Manufactoring cost for ARM SOC is $10, this thing burns it in a month.
  - holri 12y ago
    He is talking about power not cost to build it.
    - cwyers 12y ago
      Cost to build likely includes the cost of power, no? In other words, if building an ARM SoC costs $10, the electricity cost in the ARM SoC is under $10, so if you save $10 in electricity by running the ARM SoC, then you've offset the cost of the energy used in manufacturing.
      - holri 12y ago
        Energy is dirt cheap in comparison to labor. Therefore cost of industrial goods is correlated to labor not to energy / power costs. (with few exceptions in heavy industries.)

cubano 12y ago

While I like the direction they are taking, I am still kinda scratching my head at the use cases. Seniors who need a basic websurfer with malware proctection? [edit] I guess third-world users too, but like others have remarked, the power consumption is pretty brutal.

robotresearcher 12y ago
From the first paragraph of their blurb: "Symple PC gives classroom labs, non-profits and call centers a..." They are aiming it at cost-sensitive groups that need to buy a bunch of workstations.
- gtirloni 12y ago
  Those people have all the incentives of scale to want low-power computers instead.

nsnick 12y ago

So is this targeted at the third world?

3327 12y ago

The case is way too big for what it is...

sjs382 12y ago

At what point is it more planet-friendly to manufacture a new energy-efficient underpowered low-end PC, rather than repurpose an old power-hungry low-end PC?

TheCowboy 12y ago
It's a good but difficult question to answer if one wants to break into the details of it. The process of manufacturing all of the components likely results externalities that are represented in the price. There is also the cost of how the disposed machine is processed. You can also factor in the user behaviors. My grandmother probably is not going to leave her desktop powered on for longer than the 1 hour or so per day that she might use it. People here, myself included, are probably used to running their machines 24-7. There's also the perspective that if this machine is going to a 10 year old kid, that it's a machine s/he can break and it won't be a big deal. This can be a significant advantage for a low income home.
polshaw 12y ago
I think it really depends on what you mean by 'a low end PC'.. if you mean a full desktop with an extensible (PCIe etc) motherboard.. I believe the answer is... way after you'd ever want to use the old PC[1]. But if you're moving towards the something in the vein of the Raspberry Pi, much sooner. 1. http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fiel5%2F9100%2F28876%2F01299692.pdf&authDecision=-203 http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=http%3A%2F%2...
notatoad 12y ago
I don't know about more planet friendly, but just in terms of dollars, if you're paying for your own electricity getting a modern desktop for $200 is more economical after a couple months.

kolev 12y ago

If had no fan, I'd buy one for my kids.

ashark 12y ago
I recently bought a Raspberry Pi 2, a nicer case than I really needed, a 64GB sdhc card, and a good power supply for not more than one of these cost. Going with a smaller SD card and a less-nice case you'd easily save enough to cover a breakout breadboard for the GPIO and maybe a couple of sensors. Judging from its performance I suspect the original Pi would have disappointed me and been nearly useless for anything I might wanted to do with it, but the Pi2's a nice little device. It's silent and it sips power. The support and software ecosystem around it is well worth a few extra bucks over similar devices (the first time it saves you even 30 minutes of hair-pulling frustration, which likely won't be long after you open the box, you'll be glad you went with a Pi)
- kolev 12y ago
  That's what I did, too. I want to create a Pi 2 blade server and use it for local docker PaaS (for builds, running tests, etc.), but can't find a good case for that. The dog bone one takes too much space and is too generic.
  - ashark 12y ago
    You mean the stackable dog bone-shaped ones? They don't look that big to me, but maybe the pictures don't do them justice. I'm not sure whether it'd be appropriate for what you want, but this is the case I bought: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ME5XUAG/ http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ME5XUAG/ I'm happy with it, and I can't really imagine a case being any smaller and still protecting the Pi while providing access to its various ports (including the SD card). I'm not really into the see-through case thing, but I couldn't find an opaque case I liked better for the same amount of money or less.
    - kolev 12y ago
      I mean something like this [0], but more efficient as you need an outer enclosure only. Blade-server like would be idea (where the Pis are vertical) with some more efficient Ethernet cabling to connect them to a switch. [0] http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MYFAAPO/?tag=nikolay-20 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MYFAAPO/?tag=nikolay-20

q2 12y ago

Focus on environment friendliness is laudable and required. But it seems this is similar to other vendors such as Dell for example. recycling: http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/uscorp1/dell-environment-recycling?c=us&l=en&s=corp&cs=uscorp1 http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/uscorp1/dell-environment-rec... Packaging: http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/uscorp1/dell-environment-packaging-and-shipping?c=us&l=en&s=corp&cs=uscorp1 http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/uscorp1/dell-environment-pac... >>> Symple PC runs the open source Ubuntu Linux operating system and doesn't require you to give your data to a company you may or may not trust. How is this possible? It has ethernet connection and so it is possible to connect to internet and thus same as any other interconnected device. How this machine will be more trustworthy than other PC's/phones? >>> cost of $89 Following dell[1] at 500 GB hard disk is at $229. It can work safely for at least 2 years and if we go by advanced replacement warranty of in this case, symple comes to around $170. So price-wise it is not much different but configuration of 80 GB HDD is just too small. [1] http://www.dell.com/us/p/inspiron-3646-small-desktop/pd?oc=fddont7101h&model_id=inspiron-3646-small-desktop http://www.dell.com/us/p/inspiron-3646-small-desktop/pd?oc=f...

zevyoura 12y ago
I believe the part about not sharing data is in comparison to Chrome OS.
kbart 12y ago
"Symple PC runs the open source Ubuntu Linux operating system and doesn't require you to give your data to a company you may or may not trust." So did they disable Ubuntu's shopping lens[1] that's enabled by default and callbacks to a server every time you enter something in dash? 1. https://www.unixmen.com/disable-unity-online-search-feature-ubuntu-14-10/ https://www.unixmen.com/disable-unity-online-search-feature-...

aruggirello 12y ago

Love the concept. BTW I'm about to start a new linux-friendly hardware shop here in Italy (more geared towards laptops and desktop workstations - any suggestions?) - it's refreshing to see Symple did this!

stcredzero 12y ago

You can also pick up a Thinkpad T400 laptop on ebay for about that amount. (Has absolutely crap video hardware, but plenty good for web development and educational purposes.)

mediumdave 12y ago
I have a couple T61s from Ebay that I got for my kids. I've been using one of them for some development work, and I've been surprised at how well they work for that purpose --- as in, I could easily use one for my day to day work. Put an old SSD in one, install Linux, and you have a very nice machine.
- stcredzero 12y ago
  I bought a Thinkpad x220 tablet off ebay as a "poor man's Cintiq" and put an old SSD in it. The thing is like a developer Swiss Army Knife. I can use the very nice keyboard for real programming work. I can use the Wacom stylus for pixel art and graphics. Makes me think that Apple is aiming at dominating the common-person's "workstation" form factor, while Lenovo is aiming more squarely at guys like us.
polshaw 12y ago
For value in a used linux laptop nothing beats an Acer C710(~$60+)/C720(~$100); they'd beat the T400 or a 2.8ghz P4 (by a mile in total system performance), with an SSD and HDMI output, all while giving you >6hrs battery life and USB3 in the case of the 720. IIRC the iGPU's in the T400 era don't do webGL.
- stcredzero 12y ago
  IIRC the iGPU's in the T400 era don't do webGL. They are indeed close to the worst integrated GPUs ever made.

sliverstorm 12y ago

On the subject of power-efficiency... if you do not need high performance, the power-per-performance improvements in modern chips are not important, and you are missing out only on power-per-time thanks to huge leaps in idle power. So, what if you put a classroom full of students on dumb terminals all connected to one or two of these? In other words, isn't it true that the more maximally utilized these old boxes are, the less their idle power deficiencies matter?

dankohn1 12y ago

I have started switching our customer service staff to Chromeboxes (specifically, the Asus model below). However, we've found that 2 GB does not provide acceptable performance once you open more than half a dozen tabs. We've been upgrading all machines to 4 GB and have found that performance is significantly snappier than the low end Windows boxes we were using. And, of course, we love not having to worry about upgrades, anti-virus, backups. etc. Even the Symple would require us to manually upgrade the Ubuntu OS eventually. http://www.amazon.com/Asus-CHROMEBOX-M004U-ASUS-Desktop/dp/B00IT1WJZQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1425322129&sr=1-1&keywords=chromebox http://www.amazon.com/Asus-CHROMEBOX-M004U-ASUS-Desktop/dp/B...

Animats 12y ago

There's an outfit in Oakland which does this.[1] They're a computer recycling center which assembles working systems from the recycled ones. They currently offer minimum specs of at least 2GB of RAM, 80GB HDD, DVD-ROM and 17” monitor. They install Linux XUBUNTU 14.0.1. The machines are free to schools, non-profits, and low-income people. There was a similar organization in Berkeley which installed Windows. They had a deal with Microsoft which allowed them to do this. But I think that ended with Windows XP. [1] http://www.ewastecollective.org http://www.ewastecollective.org

jstanek 12y ago
There's an organization in Minneapolis which does a similar thing. It's called Free Geek Twin Cities, and they recycle old PCs and put Ubuntu on them. It's about $40 for a computer, or one can earn one by volunteering for 24 hours. I used to volunteer there when I was less busy.
- heywire 12y ago
  Adding another similar organization: www.reglue.org
- johnpowell 12y ago
  When I first moved to Portland I volunteered at Free Geek. But it was mostly because I didn't know anyone and it seemed like a good way to make like-minded people. It worked.
  - semi-extrinsic 12y ago
    You tried making people and it worked? Did you use the standard trick for making people, or is this more revolutionary?

batrat 12y ago

10/100 Ethernet... why not GbE port? i would love to have something like this in my homelab, but the Ethernet port (for me) is rather limited.

notatoad 12y ago
Because they aren't setting the spec sheet, they're selling refurb computers from it departments, and most of those were originally specced with 10/100

happycube 12y ago

IMO the cutoff needs to be Core 2 Duo tech (even Celeron versions) or any AMD64 chip. Pentium 4 Prescotts, which their spec implies could be used, are awful and inefficient chips. (Heck, I told people not to buy them when they were new!)

polshaw 12y ago
Agreed, the late P4's check the box when it comes to performance, but they are right at the worst point possible in terms of power consumption, the next gen (I would include CoreDuo, or P4 era A64) are vastly more appealing because of that. I'm sure there are many of those CPUs involved in some of these PCs; why not offer a CD+ (or even 'no P4') guarantee for +$10 or so?
- yuhong 12y ago
  Or at least Cedar Mill/Presler, which is an easy drop-in replacement in most LGA775 motherboards. It is unfortunate that Conroe is not.

BorisMelnik 12y ago

very nice. would love to see an SSD option for slightly more, which would decrease the size, power & shipping weight and speed up the overall benchmark.

patcheudor 12y ago

"Data control by large corporations and government agencies is a tangible concern. Our Symple PC represents another, environmentally intelligent and privacy-aware path. It is one of the most planet-friendly PCs in the world. The case is made from recycled ABS plastic, the parts are recycled..." Hold on, hold on. They are directly marketing this solution to call centers, non-profits, etc., claiming it's "privacy-conscious" yet it utilizes recycled components which by their nature are from unknown sources. There is no chain of custody for recycled components. As such, do they have a lab which is verifying the firmware of any of those recycled components haven't been tampered with in a way which will result in a breach of privacy? If they do, that's cool but I'd think it would add significantly to the cost. This has been a major challenge in the re-use space for years as it's possible to tamper with firmware on motherboards, hard-drives, and network cards in a way which breaches privacy, independent of the operating system. I get the whole reuse thing, it's cool, but I'd be very cautious about making binding claims as to either the privacy or security of devices using recycled components which can be re-flashed.

Shank 12y ago
No offense, but tampering with firmware on motherboards, hard drives, and network cards to breach privacy sounds more like NSA/EquationGroup/TAO, not parts recycling centers. Unless you're implying that we should be checking every component for NSA tampering, I'd need some solid statistics to back up the idea that firmware backdoors are suddenly commonplace from refurbished/recycled computer parts.
- patcheudor 12y ago
  NSA/EquationGroup is just in the news right now. There have been growing concerns about UEFI for years as well as a lack of reporting. Note this from Dick Wilkins UEFI report: "Examples come from Intel, Microsoft, Mitre, NIST, Linux distros and others. Some are public and some are available only under NDA via direct communications with the involved companies." Is it likely to be seen in the wild often? Likely not, but that's not the point. If it's seen more than once, then you have a problem if you build an entire business selling "trusted platforms" based on recycled equipment. At that point, expect your claims to be busted. What happens the first time someone actually finds a confirmed trojan in a firmware component of a product they sell? It doesn't matter if it is legitimate or a plant, it will reverberate through the news cycle like Lenovo-Superfish and the damage will be done. This isn't to say this business model is a bust. Just be very cautious about claiming it supports privacy. There are plenty of educational scenarios where hardware which has been compromised would be of no issue. http://www.uefi.org/sites/default/files/resources/2014_UEFI_Plugfest_06_Phoenix.pdf http://www.uefi.org/sites/default/files/resources/2014_UEFI_...

Eleutheria 12y ago

I bought a mac mini in 2011 and swore to god I would never buy a huge case ever again for no reason whatsoever. Sorry guys, make it smaller and I may bite.

erose 12y ago

Add the fact they they have to be shipped to the long, long, list of the reasons this is a bad idea. I'm surprised so many people were fooled by the marketing materials.

p1mrx 12y ago

Hopefully they're not selling the Athlon XP series. While they seem like perfectly-capable x86 CPUs at first glance, they're no longer compatible with software that requires SSE2, like Chrome and Flash.